Inside weeing

[NICOLE TILLSON]

We have two jack russell puppies, they are 16 months old, we toilet trained them the exact same way as our previous jack russell, they have a doggie door and use it all day and night. 

All their poos are done outside day and night, during the day all wees are done outside, however some nights they will wee inside on the curtain right beside their doggie door, or occasionally in another room on the way to the doggie door.

Needless to say the spot stain carpet cleaner was money well spent!

Any ideas on how to stop them doing this?

They go out to the toilet before we all go to bed every night.

They know it is the wrong thing to do, as when we call them both over and ask them who did this, and tell them that wees are done outside, they will put themselves outside for about 5 minutes before coming back in. We have never yelled at them for doing this or rubbed their noses in it or anything like that, we just tell them that wees and poos are done outside.

No we don't use crates, they are not ever going to be our thing.

We haven't desexed them yet, do you think they are marking their territory instead?

Any ideas on how to get them to stop?

Thankyou 🙂

 

[Adrienne Farricelli]

Hi Nicole, 

Welcome to the forums!

It's interesting that this behavior is only occurring on some nights and that the curtain is their favorite spot. A few questions come to mind:

1) Are they sniffing and then raising their leg when the pee on the curtain? This is more in tune with marking. 

2) Do they pee in just small amounts, like a little trickle? or do they leave an actual puddle? The trickle is more in tune with marking.

3) Do you have any wild animals frequenting the yard? Some dogs urine mark when they smell animals. 

4) Are the curtains new? Some dog mark on new items. https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/why-does-my-dog-pee-on-anything-new/

5) Are they in any way reluctant to go outside in the evening? Have you noticed any hesitancy in going through the door specifically at night? Is it very dark once they are outside? 

Since they are peeing on the curtain besides the doggy door or in another room on the way to the doggy door, it seems like they are at least making an attempt to reach the door. 

I would be monitoring them closely, closing the room on the way to the doggy door so you have only one room to focus on and making sure you always have a clear, unobstructed view of them at all times. Removing the curtain or elevating it in a safe way (with no cords dangling) can be a good idea for the time being, considering that it's hard to tell if they pee since curtains are absorbent. This will also prevent you from repeatedly washing them with an enzyme-based cleaner. 

We also don't want them to develop a substrate preference other than the surface of your yard:

 https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/advanced-potty-training/potty-training/#awordaboutsubstratepreferences

I would be wary of any emotional reactions such as calling them over and asking them who did this, as they may sense some frustration, accusatory tone or just any hint of negativity which can cause them to then start peeing in inconspicuous places and out of sight. 

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/puppy-hiding-poop-pee/

If we react to their peeing after several seconds or minutes have elapsed (after peeing) it is also possible that they will associate what they were doing at the very moment as being wrong (like just walking, looking at you) versus recollecting what happened several seconds or minutes prior. 

Although it may seem like they understand the concept of being "guilty," studies have shown that the guilty reactions we see in dogs are just a response to our emotionality. They understand we are upset and react in an appeasing way or distance themselves from us, but not from a "feeling guilty" standpoint.  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4310318/

Although the age of onset of urine marking is generally 6 months, there are reports of puppies starting sooner than that. It would be therefore interesting to know whether their "modus operandi" reflects more marking versus regular peeing to empty the bladder. 

Looking forward to your responses!

[NICOLE TILLSON]

Thanks for responding!

1) Are they sniffing and then raising their leg when the pee on the curtain? This is more in tune with marking. 

I have seen one of them do this once, however it always happens at night when everyone is asleep

2) Do they pee in just small amounts, like a little trickle? or do they leave an actual puddle? The trickle is more in tune with marking.

Well the curtain is wet as is the door mat (they are mats that pick up wet dirty paws so are really absorbent) so I would think it is an actual wee, although their wees outside often look larger, so I am unsure, it is however a significant amount, if they mark at the dog park it is certainly less than what they are leaving inside. 

3) Do you have any wild animals frequenting the yard? Some dogs urine mark when they smell animals. 

We have had a fox go for the chooks, but the boys they chased it away and we get rats in the garden, which they also hunt, other than that nothing except birds

4) Are the curtains new? Some dog mark on new items. https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/why-does-my-dog-pee-on-anything-new/

No, we moved to this place when they were 7 months old

5) Are they in any way reluctant to go outside in the evening? Have you noticed any hesitancy in going through the door specifically at night? Is it very dark once they are outside? 

They have a solar light that lights up outside where they go out, they have no problems at all hooning in the dark, we have played outside in the dark with them from when they were really little so it wouldn't ever be an issue.

I would be monitoring them closely, closing the room on the way to the doggy door so you have only one room to focus on and making sure you always have a clear, unobstructed view of them at all times. Removing the curtain or elevating it in a safe way (with no cords dangling) can be a good idea for the time being, considering that it's hard to tell if they pee since curtains are absorbent. This will also prevent you from repeatedly washing them with an enzyme-based cleaner. 

Unfortunately we have no internal doors except bedrooms and wet areas, so nothing to shut on the way to the doggie door, as I have mentioned, no accidents when we are all up, only happens when everyone is asleep, they have no problems taking themselves outside at night to poo and to do other wees, it is only ever the one wee inside when it happens. Luckily these curtains are not thick and I can just throw them through the wash.

 

[Adrienne Farricelli]

Thanks for the extra details, they were very helpful!

OK, so if this is happening always at night when when everyone is asleep, things get more challenging, because they are left on their own with no guidance nor supervision. Sure, it would be great if they could make good potty choices, but for some reason one or both are choosing not to.

Maybe, they have some negative emotional reaction to going out of the doggy door at night, like maybe they don't like the feeling of going from dark to an outdoor light or maybe one time when they got out something startled them. A motion-detecting light that suddenly turns on can sometimes be enough to startle a dog. It could also be that they are just less confident being out on their own at night. This would of course be all speculation at this point. 

Since it's happening occasionally though, maybe one dog just wakes up with an urgent need to pee and doesn't make it out on time. The fact you have noticed accidents as well in another room on the way to the door, reinforces this thought as it seems like some effort is being made but something happens along the way. 

Another possibility is that if they go outside the doggy door together, maybe the one in front goes out and the other is worried about the flap moving and therefore remains inside and ends up going potty inside. I would expect this hesitancy to persist even in the daytime, but maybe at night it's a little more scary. 

Or maybe, they both go outside together, and then one of them gets distracted, perhaps nighttime critters cause them to go sniffing around and chasing, and then, once back inside, the dog in question remembers he has to potty, but it's too late and the urge got too strong. 

Ideas that come to mind:

-If you have a camera you can set up to monitor the curtain location remotely, this could help you get an insight on what may be truly happening. It could also be helpful so that you know which dog it is and carefully monitor him more closely. 

-Another option is to have them stay in a confined area nearby you (like in a large play pen in your bedroom) or a small bathroom, and set the alarm to take them both to potty at least once in the night to prevent this accident from happening. 

It would also be helpful teaching them to go potty on command so that you can ensure they are both 'empty" on that last potty trip before bedtime so that they don't need to have a middle of the night need to potty. This can take some time to teach, but it comes handy in many situations. https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/advanced-potty-training/potty-on-command/

-Raising the curtain up at nighttime may also help if it's being repeatedly targeted. Some dogs like to use curtains as a pee spot as it's vertical and optimal to raise the leg against. However, this may not solve the problem, as the dog may pick another indoor spot to pee if there's a sense of urgency rather than a deliberate choosing of the curtain simply because it has appealing traits. 

For sure, the fact that it happens only occasionally and only at night when everybody is asleep, make it an interesting mystery. If you happen to record the behavior, keep us posted on what you see. 

[JMFS]

I'd like to throw a question in the hat.  Is water always available?  Or does it get taken up before you go to bed?  If it does, how soon before you go to bed (and after the water has been taken away) do y'all ensure they've taken themselves outside?

This issue is near and dear to my heart because we have a leaky puppy (she's ~29 months now).  She was 7 - 9 months old when we got her and we went through a dickens of a time getting her to where she is now (she does have a medical condition contributing to the issue).  Rewashable pee pads have saved our floors. And couch. And her bed.  I bought a waterproof crib mattress pad, and a waterproof twin mattress pad, to put on the couch and the girls' bed.  I've been there - I'm Still there, though it Is getting better.  While those ideas don't help solve the issue, I am sharing them because something might be helpful with clean up and management.

One thing that I greatly attribute to reducing the instances of accidents is Rescue Remedy.  It's a Bach's flower essence of which 3 of the flowers (herbs) are for incontinence (be it from excitement, fear, or just lack of control).  Depending on further information, that might be something to consider.  Every time I test to see if we still need to use it, the answer is a resounding yes.  It's easy to use - I put it in a pitcher and fill her bowl with that.  I fiddled with the amount until we found a high enough dose to keep her bladder calm.

[NICOLE TILLSON]

They have access to water all the time, we don't take anything away.

They don't have an accident every night, in fact they just went a week without one, then day 8 there was one.

We have rescue remedy so will try that too, thankyou.

[NICOLE TILLSON]

Just thought I would update, turns out it was just that house, we had a feeling the energy was just wrong there, so we have since moved and neither boy has had an accident at all.

[Adrienne Farricelli]

Hi, thanks for the update! I am glad the issue fixed itself.