Dog dislikes to share toys

[holiver0711]

Hello, we have a 3 year old male Siberian Husky who does pretty well with his training, doesn't always listen when distracted but working on that. Our Siberian Husky has tendencies to play to rough with some dogs and has also gotten into a few arguments but has never pierced the skin of another dog. He tends to boss others around. We also have a 13 year old male Golden Retriever who is fine with anything and wouldn't even hurt a fly. Our Siberian Husky, Ash, has never been to happy with sharing toys. He is fine with treats around our Golden only but not strange dogs. Ash and our Golden both tend to get along well as the golden is submissive and are good buddies. However, we are planning to get a puppy soon and Ash will take the toy away from other dogs sometimes growl and snap to get the other dog to leave the toy. We tried playing with both dogs with different toys in the same room but he just wanted whatever the other dog had. Wondering if we should give treats to Ash while the other dog plays? Not really sure what next step to take with this. So far we avoid these situations if possible by picking up the toys. I would like to eventually bring the toys back out with both around and not just separate play times forever. We also have bought new toys just for the puppy that we won't let Ash play with and just give him his own.

[Adrienne Farricelli]

Hello Holiver0711,

Welcome to the forum. I have a few questions to better evaluate things.

Do you know by any chance yet whether this new puppy will be a female or a male? What breed? When you state "Ash will take the toy away from other dogs sometimes" what other dogs are you referring to? Dogs at the dog park? Dogs of friends?

 

What does your Golden do when your husky tries to get his toys? Has your Golden ever rebelled to the husky's behavior? If so, what happened next?

Edited November 16, 2018 by Adrienne Farricelli

[holiver0711]

Thank you for getting back so soon.

The new puppy will be a male German Shepherd. What I ment by other dogs was my Golden or friends/family dogs. I tend to pick up toys if a friend or familys dog comes over to avoid any situations but sometimes even a stick will become a toy.

My Golden isn't one for playing with toys much but the few times I might give him a ball Ash will take it. When this happends the Golden will let Ash do this.

[holiver0711]

Would also like to add that Ash won't steal food from the Golden. They also play really well together. We had another Golden who was the brother to the one we have now but he past away almost 2 years ago. All three boys got along really well. His toy problem seems to come more with family or friends dogs. Since the other dogs seem to like toys more then what my golden has. The Golden will walk by all Ash's toys without messing with any of them.

[Adrienne Farricelli]

Thank you for the additional details, they are very helpful.

It's a difficult situation with dogs who steal toys because stealing overtime gains a strong reinforcement history and practice makes perfect when a behavior is rehearsed for some time. When it comes to dogs who steal toys, I usually tend to categorize them in three categories: dogs who do so to play, dogs who do so just because they "can" and dogs who do so in a serious manner and who are willing to use aggression just to get what they want. Let me first go a bit more in depth with each.

 

Play behavior among dogs can sometimes get quite rough and even out of hand. It can sometimes be difficult recognizing dogs who are playing from dogs who are fighting or have the intent to fight because things may get especially rough with some dogs. Also, to make things more challenging is the fact that during play dogs use barks, growls, air snaps and inhibited bites which are often seen during fights. The main difference between rowdy play and fights is often the intensity and lack of metacommunication, that is, communication about communication.

 

A dog stealing toys in play may often do so to provoke the other dog in a fun game of chase. When toys are around, dogs may have fun stealing each others' toys and taking turns having access to the toy. It often starts something like this: dog A is chewing on a toy, when dog B approaches and starts barking in the dog's face. Dog A may not want to play but dog B can't take "no" for an answer and may persist in seeking out other strategies to gain access to the toy and these may even entail air snapping and lunges.

 

Usually dogs who steal as part of a game use metacommunication under the form of play bows, high-pitched barks and loose body movements that emphasize that they are just engaging in play and there is no ill-intent. This form of stealing generally is not harmful, as long as no harm is done and both dogs seem to have fun. Once the dog steals the toy, the other is after him chasing.

 

Scenario number two entails dogs who steal just because they can. Relationships among dogs often are based to a great extend on what they can and cannot get away with it. When two unfamiliar dogs are introduced in the household, they will be testing each other over several days to understand how each will react to a given situation. Access to resources (food, toys, owner's attention, sleeping spots) is often something that requires careful evaluation.

 

Now, not all dogs stick the same value to resources. Resources may have a different "price tag" among dogs. This is what makes relationships among dogs rather fluid rather than fixed. Your golden may care less if Ash steals a toy from him, but Ash may have well understood through the years that he needs extra caution when approaching him while he is eating and that doing so may be somewhat counterproductive.

 

Some dogs may therefore allow the other dog to get away with some behaviors and this may include having their toys stolen from under their nose. Now, we don't know for sure what's going on their minds but it may be something along these lines "Want my soggy, slimy toy? Go for it, I can care less about it!" Sometimes a careful evaluation is needed though, as these dogs may give up the toy just out of blunt intimidation: "Here, take it, this toy is not worthy of fighting over, I don't want to be harmed. You scare me when you approach me this way." These dogs may display a fearful body posture, ears back, lip licking and yawning as an appeasement signal. These dogs are being bullied and may lead a tense life.

 

Third scenario: Sometimes, a dog stealing other dogs' toys is doing so to be a "bully." This dog may use threatening displays to get what he wants. The body language is "serious" here with the dog's body stiff and an intimidating posture. The dog may have an arsenal of increasing threat displays. The dog may start with a growl denoting "Give me your toy or else..." then, if the growl goes unheeded they may progress to an air snap, which is technically a bite that the dog deliberately "misses" and then. may even come a bite, which is hopefully inhibited (no damage is done).

 

This type of behavior may have evolved over time after rehearsing it with several dogs. It may start with a dog stealing toys "just because he can" generalizing then to other dogs and expecting the same outcome. Because several mellow dogs find it unproductive to fight back, the dog soon learns to steal more and more and the behavior gains a strong reinforcement history (access to the resource).

 

Big problems start though when the other dog objects which may lead to two outcomes: the dog attempting to steal to withdraw (OK, I changed my mind, I no longer want your toy!) or fight back (what did you just say?). Dogs with a tendency to steal should not frequent dog parks or be put into situations where they get to rehearse the stealing behavior ultimately causing it to reinforce and potentially resulting in squabbles or serious fights when practiced with the "wrong dogs."

 

Now, how to handle stealing toys will vary based on what type of stealing we are dealing with. I will be listing shortly some options. For tempering rough play, you may find these tips about redirection in this thread helpful, but these are just for rough play with no aggression:

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/forum/showthread.php?67-Tempering-Play&p=230#post230

 

​

Edited November 17, 2018 by Adrienne Farricelli

[Adrienne Farricelli]

The way the issue is tackled, as mentioned, depends on the dog's modus operandi when it comes to stealing. Depending on each individual case, it may range from doing nothing, to providing plenty of toys, limiting the opportunities to steal through redirection, close supervision when toys are provided, and if necessary, separating dogs (tethers, baby gate, different rooms) so that they can each enjoy their toys in peace and safely.

 

Depending on the situation, owners of dogs who steal may be instructed to take different approaches. To find the ideal, individualized method, it is always best to consult with a dog behavior professional committed to using humane, dog behavior modification methods for a careful in-person evaluation considering the risks for injuries involved when trying to modify dog behavior.

 

Usually, in the case of stealing out of play, this behavior is not harmful, as long as no harm is done and both parties seem to have fun. After the dog "steals," the other dog chases aiming his attention towards getting the toy and the dogs keep playing this way and having fun. Keep away is a popular way dogs play.

 

When dealing with dogs stealing toys from other dogs in a more serious manner there are two objectives to reach. One entails teaching the approaching dog not to steal other dogs' belongings, and the other entail teaching the dog whose toys are stolen to relax.

 

Care should be taken in not punishing the thief, considering that he may associate the punishment, not with his stealing behavior, but with the other dog, and this can exacerbate things creating more tension (and potential fights) rather than making things better.

 

Not too long ago, (true story) an owner decided to use a shock collar to correct her dog for stealing toys from her other dog. She applied shock the moment the dog got his mouth on the toy. These dogs never had a fight in their life, just minor "vocal disagreements" over toys. Shock after shock, the dog stealing started attacking the dog he was stealing the toy from. Another worrisome scenario is the dog owner correcting dogs prone to stealing toys out of play by removing the toys. This may lead to real resource guarding towards the owner because the owner assumes a negative connotation, and therefore, becomes a threatening entity that removes resources.

 

.

"Doing nothing" may therefore work fine only for dogs who are playing and sometimes for dogs who simply have minor vocal disagreements. The dog stealing may say "I want that!" and the dog whose toy is being stolen may allow that, saying in non-verbal body language: "Here, you can have it, I can care less about that!" These once again are dogs who generally place a low value on the toys which sounds like the case with your golden.

 

For mild cases, it is possible to give to the dog stealing toys oodles of attention when the other dog is playing with his toys so that he eventually learns that patience pays and sharing leads to something even better. A leash can provide better control and prevent attempts to steal until the behavior of looking at the owner for treats is well-under stimulus control. Giving treats might therefore be a great way to create positive associations while the other dog is approaching or playing with toys the dog considers as "his."

 

For example, the moment the other dog interacts with his toys, you can make a smacking sound with your mouth and feed your dog several high-value treats in a row and loads of praise "good booooy" as you feed them. Another example? You are playing fetch and the ball happens to go to other dog? That means smacking sound with your mouth, and several treats fed in a row with praise until the other dog drops the ball at your hand. While helpful, caution is needed though with this approach if your dogs have a history of aggression. Have a professional help you out, and if one or both dogs have a history of resource guarding food/owner's attention, skip this method.

 

There are several cues that can also be trained to prevent the dog from stealing toys. If one dog has a toy, the other dog should be given a cue to "leave it" and come to the owner for attention/rewards. "Leave it" is covered in the obedience 101 section. Again, this may be fine as long as this doesn't provoke food resource guarding. Other helpful cues are solid responses to “stay” behavior and going to a mat to enjoy a stuffed Kong while the other dog plays.

 

Sometimes, mild cases of a dog stealing toys from other dogs may benefit from engaging both parties with a long tug toy, one dog tugging on either end. Dogs learn to enjoy "sharing" in this case as the game is all about creating "resistance." Once one dog has access to the toy, the fun ends as there's no longer "resistance." However, for some resource guarders, the value of stealing the toy and having it all for themselves may surpass the fun of tugging with a pal.

 

Providing interactive toys (toys filled with kibble/treats such as a Kong) to both dogs at the same time may provide an option where the dogs get to "play" in peace as their focus is on their own toys rather than each other. However, care must be taken to prevent the dog prone to stealing from approaching and trying to "steal the toy" from the other dog should he happen to finish first. Best to have a precaution in place such as a baby gate between both dogs, or the dog prone to stealing on a tether or leash for the most aggressive cases.

 

A dog prone to stealing may be also be trained to lie on a mat with his treat-stuffed toy and not get up until the other dog has finished his. Giving some treats every now and then may reward the dog's patience.

 

Providing plenty of toys and keeping them always out can sometimes help make toys less salient for very mild cases. This is based on the principle that scarcity is what increases the value of toys. This works sometimes, but not always and can be risky with some dogs. In my experience, it works better as a preventive way more than a treatment. Some dogs just want the toy the other dogs has, no matter what. They can even each have the same exact toy, but the other dog just wants that one. This sounds like Ash. Care is warranted with new toys as these can be very valuable compared to ordinary toys seen on a daily basis.

 

And of course, management is always the safest option. If you are unsure how your dog may react, but want your other dog to play with toys, keep him in a crate or behind a baby gate to enjoy a chew or stuffed Kong while your other dog plays. Once your dog is done with the chew toy, stop the play session and remove the toys to prevent squabble. If you do this often, he will come to look forward to your play sessions with your other dog and his toys as it means "goodie time" as this good time is always contingent upon play time.

 

Now, a big disclaimer is warranted here: cases where there is potential for aggression or any intent to do harm, require the intervention of a professional who can come to the home to assess the behavior in person. Behavior modification comes with risks and in-person coaching is needed for correct implementation. Keeping dogs separated when having toys or other resources (sticks, empty bottles) may be the best approach so to keep the dogs safe and preventing the resource guarder from rehearsing troublesome behaviors over and over.

Edited November 18, 2018 by Adrienne Farricelli

[Howler]

Finally, a few words about adding a new pup. I asked about the sex of the future puppy because generally having dogs of the same-sex may sometimes lead to some more problems, versus having female/male combinations. Now this is not a general rule of thumb, there are plenty of households with multiple males and multiple females where all is good, but I also know several who struggle.

 

Problems would not necessarily start now, as puppies are often allowed to get away from their "mischief" many times due to adults granting them a temporary "puppy license", but problems often start once the puppy starts reaching social maturity at around 12 to 36 months. This is often when things start degrading and squabbles or serious fights may erupt. Multiple females is often the most problematic, followed by multiples males and then the male and female combos generally do better because male dogs often allow females to "get away" with things.

 

But again, this is just a generalization and doesn't always apply so just wanted to give a head's up about this possibility, but not stating it as a fact. It really boils down to the dog's individual personalities and how stable they are.

 

Sometimes adding a third dog may also lead to issues. Many times there is harmony among two dogs who know each other well, and the third dog may cause an "imbalance."This is often in part related to the re-adjustment process. In the short term, you may expect the puppy pestering the Golden into play and a senior Golden no matter how mellow, may not be too willing to engage in boisterous behaviors. Your golden may therefore repeatedly move away and perhaps, if his patience gets its limit, even growl. This is easily remedied through by separating the pup from the golden just to give the golden the opportunity to relax as needed.

 

The pup may likely be attracted more to playing with the Siberian husky considering the higher energy level and that may help. In the long term though, there "may" be issues between the husky and the pup later on when, once again, the pup reaches social maturity. Whether these issues are just mild (or maybe even non-existant!) or more serious will depend on several factors, but it mostly boils down to their individual temperaments.

 

In general, as you may already know huskies can be quite energetic, rowdy, strong willed and exuberant especially when their exercises needs are not met and there is lack of training, while German shepherds need lots of mental stimulation and the ill-bred ones may be too much too handle. Again, these are just generalizations and not facts. There are many households who successfully have both, but it's important to point out that it takes a certain level of commitment, but often building a strong training foundation with one of these dogs before adopting the other can turn helpful. The fact that there is an age gap is in your favor.

 

Here are a few tips on introducing new dogs to the household:

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/introduce-dog-new-dog/

 

Hope this helps! Sorry this is so long, but there are so many variables with dog behavior.

Best,

Adrienne

[holiver0711]

Thank you for all of this information. I've narrowed it down to I feel like a mix of just because he can and a bully. Me and my significant other used the "leave it" and "stay" command when we gave the Golden a ball and Ash listened well. Only had a few moments where he would try to sneak it and we would give him the "leave it" command again. One point he had gotten the ball (sneaky fella) and with a quick "drop it" he droped the ball. We will continue working with him on this aswell as having seperate play session's of equal times.

You are completely right about Husky's and their energetic levels. We had a few days that we couldn't exercise Ash because he had a infection and had to have a cone, poor boy. When we were able to exercise him he could hardly control himself. Now he is back to his runs,walks, and playing.

Me and my significant other have also already picked out a place where Ash and the new German shepherd puppy can meet in neautral ground and walk home. We plan on introducing Ash and Golden(Dusty is his name) at different times to the puppy until it seems more calm and then bring them all together. We know things may not go smoothly at first or that their may be hiccups later down the line. Really grateful that I found your Brain Training for dogs so that we can learn more.

Thank you again.

[Adrienne Farricelli]

Sounds like a great plan! Your dogs are very lucky to have such dedicated owners. Kudos to both of you for being able to implement leave it and drop! Ash sounds like a very smart boy and it seems like he's learning that stays, leaving toys and dropping toys can be equally reinforcing (or even better!) activities. He's making great choices and training after all is part of being able to control his impulses.

[holiver0711]

The meeting went well between all the dogs and they are playing good together. Ash will accidentally step on the German Shepherd puppy sometimes(Koda) but then Koda just comes right back. We are even able to have Koda's toys out when Ash is around. However, we are still keeping Ash's toys away from Koda because he is more guarding of those and haven't taught Koda to leave it yet.

 

We are experiencing a problem and wasn't sure if I should make a new discussion about it or continue here. The German Shepherd puppy only bites harder if you make yelping sounds like his litter mates would. Saw another post about this and read it and trying those on him now. He likes to bite hands, pants, legs and holds on when he does. He has broke skin only two times but leaves marks and some bruises from biting. Trying the patience game where you put treats in your hand and close it, only opening when he is gentle. Also trying the placing a treat on the other side of your legs and as he walks acrossed petting him. We can get him to let go sometimes by tossing a toy away from us but then he just comes right back. It's the same with teaching him drop it we will ask him to drop whatever body part or clothing item he has and give him a treat but then goes right back to biting and holding on. Mainly teaching it with a tug toy but trying to use it when he bites. He mainly does it when we are walking and if we stand perfectly still (which is hard) he will continue and gets to a point that we can't stand there because it's hurting too bad.

[Adrienne Farricelli]

Hello Holiver0711,

Thanks for the update. It seems like things are going very well with your new addition. Kudos to you for paving the path for a great introduction.

 

Ahh, yeah, puppy biting... they will bite on many occasions. We need to provide them feedback that their nips hurt us, so that they can refine their biting, so you initially don't want him to stop nipping entirely at first. Yes, with drivey dogs like German shepherds, yelping can excite them more and lead to more biting, so another approach you can try is to add a verbal marker when he hurts that won't excite him much such as a "ehhh-ehh" or "no bite" followed by your withdrawal from play, turning your back around or even leaving the room if he persists. Make sure all family members are on the same page.

 

If you are stuck on the issue of him keeping on coming back, once you got tired of providing him repeated feedback that nipping hurts and lots of praise when he is gentle and/or redirects and plays with his toys, you can try to give him a longer lasting treat so that you can have a break from continuously redirecting him.

 

So let's say he will let go or drop an item, let him have a stuffed Kong or Kong Wobbler stuffed with a portion of kibble to work on (that you have prepared in advance purposely for this and away from your other dogs so that they do not feel frustrated). This should give him something to be occupied with and hopefully this will also tire him out.

 

Alternatively, keep several tennis balls handy in your reach so that every time he comes to nip you can redirect him to chasing the ball. To prevent a behavior chain from establishing (e.g. nipping just to get the ball tossed), at some point, right before he nips, ask him for a behavior such as a sit or target and then toss the ball. Remember: sometimes when pups are very intent with nipping they may be tired or cranky. You can then end the session with an interactive toy such as stuffed Kong so that he relaxes and possibly nap right afterward.

 

Also, invite him to independent activities that distract him from your hands such as the treasure hunt game or the muffin games from the brain training course (play these away from your other dogs to prevent resource guarding issues). Also great games to play are targeting (as these encourage alternate behaviors than nipping) and the airplane game to teach him that looking at you instead of a treat you are holding in your hand grants him rewards.

 

Starting basic obedience training with sits and downs also empowers you and can help you redirect him from the nipping when these behaviors become fluent. Stopping a puppy from nipping is a long-time process, that won't happen overnight. It's part of the pup maturing and learning more impulse control and better ways to interact with their humans. We aim to have it solved (or to a great extent solved) though by the time a pup is 5-6 months as that is when their permanent teeth are coming in and their jaws start getting much stronger. Not to mention the onset of doggy adolescence.

 

It is great that your pup is playing with your other dogs. This should give him the opportunity to drain some energy and learn some manners. Puppy classes though remain a great way for further refining biting as the pups enrolled get to play with other puppies in a monitored and hopefully safe environment (pups should have received their first booster shots and the facility should adhere to strict hygiene measures to prevent spread of diseases such as parvo).

Edited December 2, 2018 by Adrienne Farricelli

[holiver0711]

Thank you for the tips. It took us a bit off guard by the severity of the bitting since our Siberian Husky(Ash) caught on quickly to no bitting or nipping. Our German Shepherd puppy(Koda) has improved with his bitting. A few nips to our legs here and there as well as some humping.

Ash and Koda seem to be getting along pretty well together. They sometimes play too rough and both try to steal toys from each other. Ash will sometimes let Koda take the toy and other times won't. When we give Koda a toy Ash will steal it and bully Koda a bit. Keeping high valued toys and food seperate from them. Still using "drop it" and "leave it" for Ash but sometimes it doesn't work aswell when he is really distracted, we have been working on that.

Noticed Koda is starting to jump on us more so we are just ignoring him when he does. He is also now at the size to get his front paws onto low tables and take things off. Is there a way we can teach him not to do this? Like a "down" command? Koda also gets really excited with food which is good that he is so food driven but he keeps getting our fingers and hands when we give him a treat. Been putting food in a closed fist and only opening when he is gentle.

[JMFS]

Momo used to be so very gentle with taking treats, but when my Behaviorist started coming over he became nippy - as if she wanted his nasty slimy cold hot dogs. I tried tossing the treats because he's a champion popcorn catcher, but that merely amped him up. Where I eventually landed was holding the treat in my closed fist, then opening with the treat on my palm with my hand pointed slightly downward so my fingers can extend out of tooth reach. It's tough for him to nip that flat skin on the palm. In fact, he has a harder time using his teeth so he has to often enlist his tongue kind of like a frog. :D Maybe it will work for Koda, too.

[Howler]

It sounds like things are going pretty smoothly and great to hear that Koda's biting has improved. After going over the first hurdles, it is then mostly about refinement, getting your pup to mouth more gently and then extinguishing the mouthing (which often comes naturally as the pup matures and learns that hands, feet and fingers are rather boring, just as they outgrow chasing their tails).

 

For jumping, if it's the attention-seeking type or rushing to say hello, yes, ignoring should work, although it takes several trials. On top of ignoring, turning your back to jumping dogs to emphasize that rowdy greetings are not the way that humans like to interact can be helpful. Then, you can turn facing the dog once the dog gives signs of calming down, but turn again abruptly should the dog attempt again to jump again.

 

For enthusiastic jumping that is often evoked by hand movements and certain tones of voices, you can also work on desensitizing the dog to them and pointing out that sitting is far more rewarding than jumping in those circumstances. You can see some of this training under the case study section, under Maggie:

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/case-studies/

 

For the paws on the table, is he doing this with the intent of just exploring and the things fall off or is he actually stealing items off and running off with them?

 

There's another type of exercise that can be done if your pup takes treats roughly. Keep a treat in your hand between your thumb and index/middle fingers letting it protrude a bit (just as when luring) and insert the treat directly in your pup's mouth. If he is rough with his teeth, don't let go (letting go will only reinforce the behavior). Wait for him to nibble gently, and at that time, praise him and let go of it. Repeat several times, and as he gets the idea, you can add the verbal cue "gentle" every time you insert the treat in his mouth to remind him to be gentle.

 

Now, a disclaimer is warranted here: this exercise should be done only with puppies with some level of bite inhibition. If you have an adult dog or a puppy with very little bite inhibition, this can lead to hurt fingers. Since it sounds like your puppy is getting your fingers anyway, at this point, there should be no harm in practicing this exercise, but please practice caution (and possibly use gloves) if your pup bites hard or you feel that his teeth are getting close to break skin. Careful not to insert the treat too deep back as those molars have quite some crushing power and you don't wan't your fingers there accidentally.

Edited January 5, 2019 by Howler

[holiver0711]

Thank you for the replies will definitely be trying these tips. For the paws on the table he will steal things off the table and run away. We have also put up any easy reach smaller trash cans that we have as he likes to steal stuff out of there too.

[Adrienne Farricelli]

Great idea to put those trash cans out of sight. So tempting to a puppy, they must be perceived as a treasure chest to them!

For stealing items off tables and running away, you can find some tips in this thread: I prefer to use "leave its" as soon as you notice an intent to steal.

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/forum/showthread.php?43-Thieving-Pooch&highlight=stealing

Best,

Adrienne