Dog will not eat meals if I use treats to train.

[virgo9674]

I could not find much about this anywhere. When I first started training my pup I noticed this behaviour. So I researched different training methods. I have a 17 week old mixed breed (jackrussell/pit/redbone coonhound mix) I have her eating at around the same times each day. She eats twice a day. This was mostly by her choice as I offered her a third meal in the middle of the day at first, and she would not eat any. Once I started positive training with rewards, she starting refusing to eat her meals. She goes around "doing tricks" while we are doing everyday activities hoping to get treats. I do not oblige her. I started doing her training in the middle of the day..between meals... thinking this would be a good time, not spoiling her meal time. This has not worked. She refuses to eat again at night, and gets very wild. I can tell this wildness is from hunger. I have had her about 4 weeks now. I have a good potty/eating schedule going with her. We have play time every day several times a day. She is learning sit,recall,laydown etc. I just bought the braintraining4dogs program today. But, like other programs, it is reward based. I try looking into various types of treats. I even tried giving her dog food as a treat. This worked a little. Maybe I should do that? I do have another serious issue with her.{outside phobias inhibiting potty training and outside play.} She was like this when we got her. But I will read more in the training program first to get help with that.

 

Right now, I really could use some help with the treats issue so I can train her the way I want to. Thanks!

 

Oh! and when she refuses to eat her meals, she hunts all over trying to get cat poop, grass if she is outside, crumbs anyone may have dropped, anything/everything but her meals. When I stop giving her treats for a day or so she is back to happily eating her meals. Thanks!

[JMFS]

I don't have much on this one other than my experience with a picky eater. We wet her food with a little warm water, sometimes chamomile tea, and sometimes with a drop of honey. I've mixed bacon grease into her food - I'll dip a spoon into the grease, let it drip off to where the spoon is only coated with the grease and then what's left on the spoon I'll mix into her food. It's more about the smell than the taste and bacon grease isn't good for them. What else? I've taken the crumbs from the other dogs' food or the cat food and sprinkled that on top of her food - she eats a limited ingredient food so it's interesting to have different flavors. With less success I've buried Zuke's minis in her dish. She's got an Excellent nose and picks those out, but sometimes it's enough to get her to eat the rest of the food. Yesterday I mixed ¼ teaspoon of peanut butter into her food. And then on Other days all I have to do is start playing with her food and pretending to eat it and she'll come over to see what on Earth I'm doing. I have about a 75% success rate there. The last thing I can think of is getting her food soggy and putting it in a Kong - sometimes it's about presentation. And you can sneak a treat in the top of the Kong so they have to eat their dinner to get to the treat.

 

I suppose one question would be how many treats does she get during training?

[virgo9674]

Hello Jennifer!, Thank you for your post.I do not wish to give her any human food at all at this time. Even to taste it up. I do not think that is the issue. She loves her food the way it is, she just prefers treats. Like kids. They would rather snack and not eat their meals. But, since treats are a training tool this is where it gets tricky. What are"mini's?"

I did wonder about how many treats were ok. But, these trainers I see literally use ten times what I do! lol like a treat every few seconds to heel.:eek: So, by that standard I do not give her a lot at all. I think if its a bigger bite size, we may do 5 a behaviour. If you understand what I mean. If its a tiny treat maybe more on the 10 side. I think the most each day has been around 10-/12 of small morsel size treats. I was saving Peanut butter possibly, for teaching the emergency call training lol. Later. I was hoping to have her good and trained before using any kind of human food or flavor because past experience has been this dramatically increases begging,and it never goes away!

[virgo9674]

I just noticed your "crew." LOL my cat is named Monkey as well. She is a chill,diva. She is 5 years old. :)

[virgo9674]

Jennifer, sorry for so many replies. I am new to the forum. I did get to thinking about something you mentioned... Her treats are usually kind of soft. Maybe I should try water moistening her food. Could she be teething?

[JMFS]

No worries - I know what it's like to have that afterthought. :D Monkey is a good name for cats and it's got so many nicknames. Monks, Nunks, Monkster, Nunker Dunker Doodle Doos (that last one may only be me - no telling what is going to come out of my mouth some days). Mine is a lover and he thinks he's a dog in regards to being a social butterfly. He's whistle trained just like the dogs; however, because he's a cat he prefers a more refined whistle, which is Bach's Minuet in G. I used to whistle that going around the house and all three cats would follow me - I have No idea why - and it stuck. Just Monks now, I thought the other two (Poot and Ripper) would be happier with the ex, who is a major cat lover. I was right, he spoils them. :)

 

Wetting the food will definitely make it more enticing because that will release the aroma, making it more appealing. She may prefer the softer texture, too. Abbi likes it a little warm and I know her teeth are bothering her so it's probably more enjoyable to eat. The chamomile helps calm the tummy after a day of treats, and Abbi has arthritis just like me so we sip the chamomile tea to help with inflammation as well. I make it for myself and reserve some for the pups.

 

All three of our pooches beg, but when we tell them to go to their beds they'll stop begging and go. I can't Stand it when animals (or my husband) stare at me when I'm eating so that was something on my "must do" list of training. Gertie has gone from sneaking peanut butter to sleeping next to my husband while we eat. He's got a much higher patience level and sense of humor than me when it comes to food. One day Gerts licked his sandwich. I would have been through the roof and skipped a meal. He just tore off that bit and set it aside. Ugh, gross!

 

And yes, trainers (close your ears, Adrienne, hehe) are Insane with the treats. When we were working with Mo's behaviorist I had a whole chicken breast cut up and we blew through that and I had to go get my Zuke's! The gas was unbearable on training nights, lol. However, I have to say they get dogs to pay attention real quick that way, and I can understand why. Keep plying me with Ghiradelli Double Chocolate brownies, or steak, and even I might sit, stay, and heel! Probably not, but I say someone should try it. ;)

[virgo9674]

Thank you so much Jennifer for sharing with me. I have never heard of the chamomile use for dogs. Is it just regular 'ol chamomile tea we drink? Do you pour it on their food? Does chamomile calm for sleeping too in pups? I wish I could whistle lol. That is so cool.

[Adrienne Farricelli]

And yes, trainers (close your ears, Adrienne, hehe) are Insane with the treats. When we were working with Mo's behaviorist I had a whole chicken breast cut up and we blew through that and I had to go get my Zuke's! The gas was unbearable on training nights, lol. However, I have to say they get dogs to pay attention real quick that way, and I can understand why. Keep plying me with Ghiradelli Double Chocolate brownies, or steak, and even I might sit, stay, and heel! Probably not, but I say someone should try it. ;)

 

LOL, I take no offense, as I know this is true for several dog trainers. A dog trainer I worked with during dog training school was suggesting bringing a whole package of 6 hot dogs and cutting them up in pieces. I wasn't surprised when some of his clients reported they had to stop because their dogs developed massive diarrhea after class! There are some ways around this and my favorite is to mix kibble with some cut hot dogs (or some other stinky treats like freeze dried tripe or liver for dogs sold in pet stores) and letting the kibble soak the flavor overnight in the fridge.

 

Many dogs can learn to enjoy and work for their kibble when training indoors. The kibble becomes more valuable since they get to work for it. Since an average bowl of kibble has likely at least 50-60 pieces that means you have lots of opportunities to reward desired behaviors. If you toss the kibble on the floor to reward, dogs even get a kick trying to catch it. If your dog can be trained with kibble, you are at a great advantage.

 

Outdoors, you may need to increase the value of treats, and that's when the hot dog trick may come handy. You can even remove the hot dog if you don't want to feed people food. By next day, the aroma of the hot dog should have invaded the kibble. Another strategy is giving very small pieces of treats. Often dog owners are surprised when I ask them to give me the treat they have in their hands and break them into several small pieces. I then use each piece to reward one behavior (in general the only exception is the recall, where I will give several pieces in a row to leave a strong impact).

 

However, it's important to not get stingy with treats and use of people foods especially when it comes to behavior modification, especially serious issues. Dogs that need all the help they need to overcome fears, obsessions or phobias or who are at risk of being rehomed, in this case we want to be armed with the highest value foods and we need to be generous. We can then always work on weaning them off gradually later on, once we have accomplished the main goals and the dog's emotional well-being and a state of physiological homeostasis is restored.

 

The issue of begging for food is unlikely to happen when feeding people foods for training if care is taken to follow rules. First of all, training dogs to lie on a mat during owners' meal times, can help establish good manners and prevent begging. Here is how to train a dog to lie on a mat:

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/video-archive/train-dog-go-to-mat/

 

If not training on mat, one can also train an invisible boundary. It can start by tying a cord from one side to another of a room at the height of the dog's chest and reminding the dog to not surpass it (using an "off" cue and body language/movement towards the dog to remind him to back off). Then the cord can be placed on the ground and then the cord can be removed once the dog grasps the idea. Dogs learn to lie down behind this invisible boundary in this area during meal times.

 

Other than using treats, dogs can be trained with life rewards. All that is needed is finding things that dogs find pleasurable, and using those to our advantage. For instance, hounds and small terriers love to go outside to explore and sniff the yard, so why not ask for a lovely sit by the door and then marking that and rewarding by opening the door? Dogs who love to go on walks, can be taught to sit before putting on the collar. And dogs who love toys, can be taught lots of obedience cues using a flirt pole or a squeaky/furry toys tossed in the air to reinforce sits, downs and leave its.

 

Since you mention that she acts hungry in the evening and starts hunting for food and since she is a mix of many serious breeds who thrive on working, perhaps she may enjoy working/scavenging for her meals? How about doing a treasure hunt game https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/brain-training/elementary/the-treasure-hunt/ or this version with a twist https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/case-studies/01-sadie-treasure-hunt/ or filling a Kong Wobbler with her kibble? Or doing a muffin game? https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/brain-training/elementary/the-muffin-game/

 

You can incorporate training in these games such as asking your dog to hold a sit stay or down stay while you hide the treats for the treasure hunt game or prepare the muffin game. You can then release your dog to enjoy the activity.

 

 

Finally, even though it may happen that some dogs may go on food strikes if they are given too many treats, something to consider is also checking with the vet if a dog appears to not be eating her meals with appetite. It sounds like prior to training, she was already a bit finicky, refusing to eat her third meal? This may not be your case, but always worthy of pointing out. Many dogs would readily accept a third meal if given by mistake, and I know many dogs (mine included) who would have even eaten the whole bag of food given the opportunity. So you might be dealing with a finicky dog or perhaps there may be some underlying digestive issue or metabolic issue at play.

 

Also, check that you are feeding the right amount. It is easy to overfeed dogs with kibble, especially the smaller ones who get filled up quite quickly. You can also consult with your vet and ask precisely how much food you can reduce to make up for the added calories of treats or ask for help in finding treats that are very low calorie and that don't fill up your dog too much. Your vet can also recommend a diet change if your dog's current diet is not very enticing to your dog. Some diets may be blah.. somewhat bland tasting especially if there are lots of fillers (grains, corns, flours) and little protein (meats/fish).

Edited July 19, 2019 by Adrienne Farricelli

[virgo9674]

Adrienne, thank you so much! These are very good thoughts and advice! Sometimes, I think of things like this, but I never know what is okay. I am so worried about training wrong. Having you to help means so much. I want to train her to be my service dog. So, it is very important to me. So much of what you said makes sense. The other ideas are genius to me. Again thank you. I will try your suggestions. I am also training with your program, so that is extremely helpful too. I can only read a little each day though. This is why this forum is very helpful. Bless you and have a great weekend! I will post results from these suggestions.

[cammidge]

Not all treats are created equal. My trainer got me onto Rollover, which is solid meat sold in a 'salami' looking thing which you cut up into whatever size you like and freeze it. Great stuff, and good for them, so they are getting nutrition as well.

[JMFS]

Yes, regular ol' chamomile tea. I look at the ingredients to ensure it only says "chamomile flowers," though several other teas are beneficial to dogs. When I'm going to be gone for a while I'll brew chamomile and lavender tea, then there's a Tulsi blend I give them sometimes to change things up and it's packed with all sorts of goodies. I looked up each ingredient before giving it to the pups because they can be so very different from us. Grapes and raisins, for example, can kill them quickly with renal failure. I occasionally get a hankering for Raisinets and those are kept under lock and key so there's no chance the dogs can get into my stash.

 

At the beginning of each month I have a big bill week ahead of me and I need the girls to be less needy than usual. For those days I'll make a batch of tea that I can give them throughout the week. It's 4 cups of water, 2 pkts chamomile, 2 pkts chamomile and lavender, and 1 pkt of the tulsi with about a teaspoon of honey. They all drink it straight from the bowl - Abbi is 10 lbs and gets about ¼ c; Gertie at 45 lbs gets about 3/4 c. I play meditation music and give them something to work on, usually a marrow shin bone for Gertie and a toy with Zuke's minis or a Zuke's link for Abbi. So far so good - it's like a hippie fest over here. :D On normal days, though, I pour it over the food and let it soak in.

 

As far as the whistling goes, if you can't whistle there are silent whistles or regular whistles that work just as well. It Is easier to be able to whistle with your lips because you never leave home without them. :D Abbi has her very own whistle, too. It's a little more melodic than Gertie and Momo's one or two-note whistles and I even recorded it for our Furbo so it plays for her when we're gone. I did a write up on how to silent whistle train, but it applies to any whistle or sound, really. I use it primarily for recall, though my brother will tell you his previous dog, Shelby, would sit when he did a certain pattern with the silent whistle. Momo is Very receptive to it and Gertie is getting there. She's a little more obstinate when it comes to finishing her sniffing and exploring, or rolling in disgusting gross stuff, than Momo is.

 

I know many dogs (mine included) who would have even eaten the whole bag of food given the opportunity

 

Momo. Definitely Momo. And Brownie, when he was alive. Those boys would polish it off and ask for more. Gertie would have her fill and pass out next to the pile. Abbi would ignore it.