Take/Leave

[KouVang]

Hi,

Some questions.

 

1. Any additional tricks on how to transition from treats to toys for "take"?

Although she can leave the treat and then take on command in the other hand, now when I try to do it with toys, she just stares at it or sniffs it. Most of the time she just stand still.

I'm trying the shaping where if she starts to interact with the toy I click the clicker or cue with a yes and treat. But then I try again right after and point at the toy and say "take" and still blank stare. I'm thinking she relates the "take" to only treats therefore no movement for now.

 

2. You mentioned in one of your articles to not train the "drop" the same time you are training "take" or else it will confuse the dog. Is that correct? If so, I'm just going to train to make sure she gets this concept of take first and then move on to the drop after she fully understands it.

[Adrienne Farricelli]

Hello,

Welcome back!

 

Some dogs may be a bit hesitant in taking toys. This can be a matter of texture, or just simply the dog is not particularly predisposed to being "mouthy." At 12 weeks, with pups being easily distracted patience goes a long way. This is a foundation skill taught in service dog training and often it's one of the most challenging to train. Puppies are sure mouthy by nature, meaning that they like to lick, nip and explore the world with their mouths, but they may not readily understand the concept of picking up things with their mouth on cue other than food items. Also because they do not "eat" toys (hopefully!). To help with this distinction, it helps to practice sessions with food and sesssions with toys at separate times.

 

And yes, to answer your question, it helps to avoid confusion to train "drop" and take separately. It's a good idea to therefore start with "take."

 

As for other things you can try to encourage your puppy to take, here are a few extra tips:

 

-You can try using a novel toy. Perhaps the novelty of the toy may help encourage your puppy to pick it up.

-You can try turning it into a game, get the toy, tie it to a string, and move it about with your pup chasing it. Then, put the toy in reach and readily pointing to it saying "take" or "gett'it!" in an exciting tone of voice.

- Try toys with different textures and qualities, perhaps your dog has a preference for picking up toys that are fluffy or bouncy. A service dog foster dog I had in training was reluctant to pick up any type of stuffed toys, but her mind changed when I used a bunny fur tug toy which gained her interest.

-Try seeing whether your pup prefers picking up toys from your hand or from the floor. Stick with what is easiest.

-Observe your puppy during the day and see whether you pup has a preference for picking up a particular toy. Practice with that toy.

-Never get frustrated. It is easy at times to get frustrated when things don't work out as we would like. Pups can feel our frustration and if we say "take" in a tone of voice that denotes frustration, they the pups may perceive it more as "leave it" than take.

-Practice in quiet rooms where there are no distractions. The only "distraction " should be the toy being moved around.

-Keep treats used for rewarding out of view and use non-smelly treats if this distracts the pup. Some smart pups smell the treats and don't want anything to do with the toy because they want the treats.

-Playing with a tug toy may be a natural way to encourage the pup to "take."

-Long toys may help encourage the pup to grab one end and then the behavior can be put on cue.

-Make training sessions brief and fun, a blank stare can mean the pup is not sure what to do next or it may be too tiring (clicker training can be tiring) and the pup needs a break.

-If the blank stare is due to confusion, it's OK if you're using shaping to take a step back or two.

 

Hope it helps!

Best,

Adrienne

[KouVang]

Thank You for your wonderful time and help Adrienne. I've learned a whole lot. You really give great value. I'm just going to keep a note as I'm progressing here to remind myself. I noticed that my dog only "takes" it if I'm holding it so holding the toy for her to take seems to be better. Next is that she will just like take a bite of the toy and then leave it alone and expect treats lol. To resolve that issue, I'm going to now just train with toys only and treats seprately so she's not always expecting treat. To help her hold the toy in her mouth too I hold the toy for her to come take and I help her hold it there.

[KouVang]

Adrienne,

I've made progress as to pointing at a toy and say "take". What she would do is she would go bite the toy, shake it for a second or so and then make eye contact again. (I think she's expecting a treat). I'm trying to train without a treat now but just verbal cue. So I made progress that far but now any suggestions to move to the next step and have her hold it in her mouth for a longer period of time? I've tried to wait it out and keep saying take but that will only make her frustrated because then she gives a blank stare as like "what do you want me to do?"

 

The only time I observe her taking something and holding it around her mouth is when she is bored and needs to release some energy so she picks up the toys and run around the room with the toy in her mouth. I should try to catch her in the act and then say "take" and reward? but rewarding will cause her to drop it...so i'm not sure if that's a good idea too.

[Adrienne Farricelli]

Great! It is super awesome your puppy has grasped the concept of "take." If your puppy is biting the toy upon hearing you say take and is shaking it for a second, it means she has learned to pick it up on cue and she has added her own personal touch in playing with it too. It sounds like now you are now trying to advance to "hold" which is perceived as a slightly different task to the dog. Hold is more challenging as it involves raising criteria because you are basically adding duration to the pick up.

 

What are your goals for the the hold? Are you trying to get her to pick up a toy and then carry it in her mouth while walking, possibly with the final goal of bringing it to you?

 

Just to clarify: a click signals the end of behavior. If you click, it is therefore normal for the dog to drop the item and expect the reward. By delaying the click/treat though you are adding some duration. For example, if you are using capturing then, the moment you see your puppy approaching a toy to pick it up, just a split second before she picks it up you can say "take" and then once the pup picks the toy up, wait a bit for your puppy to hold it (maybe while walking a few steps) and then click/ reward. End of the session. If your puppy resumes to want to pick it up again, embrace that and take advantage for another opportunity to click/reward other future holds. If your goal is training your pup to bring a toy to you though, I prefer to train it through a method known as backchaining.

Edited July 4, 2018 by Adrienne Farricelli

[KouVang]

oh....a lightbulb just hit. You just made me realized something. My dog does now know "take". hahaha.. for some reason in my mind, my thinking of "take" was to take and hold...so that then I can introduce the next one of teaching her "drop". That was why the "hold" part was in ingrained in my definition of take so that in the future I can teach her to "drop" it. But it makes sense now that she does know take.

 

By the way, that click signal tip does help. I usually do it too soon or when I see it happening. Good thing to note that it signifies the end of behavior instead of in the middle of doing one or the beginning.

 

Ok so yes, then my goal would be to get her to hold it in her mouth long enough so that I can say "drop it" and teach her that? What are some suggestions to help her hold it in her mouth so that I can tell her to drop it?

 

Another question that i'm been wondering about.... the term "drop it" and "leave it" almost could be used interchangeable at certain situations...such as if they are eating something you don't want them to. In this moment, which one do you use?

Edited July 3, 2018 by KouVang

[Adrienne Farricelli]

Yes, if your puppy is grasping the object on cue (when told so) and is lifting it off the ground even for just a split second, then that qualifies as "take." That's a job well done considering that your puppy is quite young!

 

I wouldn't focus too much on training hold at this point, unless you are planning on advancing to some of the more advanced brain games or considering engaging your pup in bird dog training or in the sport of shutzhund. If you'd like to train longer "holds" though let me know and I can share some tricks of the trade I have learned from some successful gun dog training folks.

 

All we really need at this point in order to train drop it initially is just a second or two of having an item held in the mouth. So for instance, let's say you are playing with your pup, wiggling around a toy and then toss her the toy. You let her interact with it a bit, perhaps wait for her to shake it around, and then you can practice saying "drop it" as you show a treat right in front of her nose and click/reward with the treat the moment the mouth is opened and the toy falls out. Then, you can proceed, gradually progressing to no longer showing th treat following the instructions in the course.

 

Since you have a young pup, you can also practice "drop it" randomly throughout the day with other objects. The good thing about pups is that sooner than later, they'll carry something they shouldn't have in their mouths. It may be a slipper, a magazine or the remote control or some other random object left around. There are often plenty of opportunities for training "drop it" with pups! Of course, never leave your pup purposely with items that may harmful just for the sake of training. It takes just a second for a pup to swallow something harmful such as a battery or coin.

 

To answer your question, if your dog is already eating something you don't want her to, as long as it's something the dog can spit out (peanut butter won't work of course!) then you would use "drop it." If your pup is about to approach something with the intent to eat it/interact with it, you would use "leave it." "Drop it" is therefore for something that is already in the dog's mouth, "leave it" is for something that you don't want your pup to interact with. So for example, let's say you just dropped a large chunk of bread on the floor. If your pup moves towards it in an attempt to go eat it, and you say "leave it," your pup shouldn't get any closer to it if she understands this cue well. If you missed seeing your pup approach the bread and it's already in her mouth, then you would say "drop it" instead and hopefully she'll spit it out once you have practiced with higher-value items.

Edited July 5, 2018 by Adrienne Farricelli

[KouVang]

Coco the dog has learned drop it! It feels great. I first play with a toy (usually her tug-rope) and get her excited, then I toss it and tell her to take. She then brings it back now and I say drop it and she does it. Then we walk over to get treats. Somehow that walking over to get treats really stands out to her. We do that whenever she finishes pottying too and she's doing super at that now on the pad. I think the key was to really just look for opportunities for saying drop-it that worked for me. Although these opportunities were usually when she was playing with her toys. Nothing would get through if she was taking something that she was not suppose to.

 

On to the next one we go. Now we can do some brain training games. Now it is just a matter of doing those commands at a more distracted situation.

[Adrienne Farricelli]

Amazing work you are doing there with your pup! Sounds like your pup has good potential and you are very dedicated in training. Folks like you who find the process of training instrinsically rewarding are armed with a natural inclination for perseverance and patience which leads to success. Great job.