Growling at Smaller Dogs When Returning Home

[s_wiss13]

Hi,

I have Harmonie, a 15 month old Female Great Pyrenees.  We've had her since she was 3 months old.  She was with her mother and litter mates prior to that.  You gave me some advice about a year ago regarding socialization and she does okay, but not perfect.  She is pretty leery of a lot of things and people but I've never seen her be aggressive when she is acting unsure, she just shies away.  I think some of this may be breed specific but it also could have been something prior to her time with me - I do recall she was very shy and scared when I first brought her home.  Harmonie was spayed after her first heat cycle per our veterinarian advice right after her 1st birthday.

I have 4 other dogs all spayed or neutered, 2 smaller Shih tzu - Schnauzer mixes that are 12 years old, one female Taffie, one male Tigger, Poppie, 13 year old Portuguese Water Dog and Maxx a 4 year old Wheaten mix.

I would like your input on a behavior that Harmonie has with the smaller 2 dogs.  If I take Harmonie somewhere, either a short trip to the vet or a longer trip for the weekend, when she comes back home she growls and has a stand off with the smaller dogs.  Tigger can be a bit growly back with her and sometimes she will try to pin him down with her mouth.  Taffie submits and cowers but Harmonie will still growl a bit.  After that is over within minutes, I never see any growling again until one of them leaves the house and comes back.  If I take the twins and return, the same thing happens, Harmonie growls.  She does not do that if I take the bigger dogs and return.  It's only with the smaller dogs.

I'd like to know the best way to address it.  If I ignore it, they work it out within 1 minute.  If I try to divert her, she still wants to get to them, and as soon as I let them meet, she growls, and then gets over it.    It feels more like dominance than aggression.  I just don't want to feed into it.  They get along fine at all other times.  I feed Harmonie in a separate room but just because she eats much slower than the other 4.  I've never seen any food aggression from her. They get treats at the same time and never growl.  They don't growl over toys.  They don't growl if I'm petting them and the other comes up.  It's just the reunion.  If we all go for a walk and return together, no issues.

Thanks in advance.  I want to work on this, then I may have some other questions with Harmonie but I'll wait for now!

Susan

[Adrienne]

Hi Susan,

Welcome back! I certainly remember Harmonie and the lovely pictures of her you provided me some time back. 

Couple of questions for you: 

Is she leery mostly towards strangers? And if so, when? When you meet them on walks? When they come to your home? What happens before she acts leery? Are the people making eye contact? Trying to pet her?

What other things make her act insecure? 

Are your 12-year old mixes showing signs of aging? For example, mobility issues? Eye sight problems? Are they spayed/neutered?

Do they seem emotionally impacted by Harmonie's behavior? For instance, after the stand off, do they act scared of her or cower or pee, or do you notice any changes in them or does everything go back to normal and friends as before?

Thanks!

 

[s_wiss13]

Hi Adrienne,

Thanks for the response.  Harmonie is definitely leery towards strangers, whether they come to the house, in the yard, or out on walks.  When people come to the house, she pretty much keeps her distance.  She will come up to them and sniff them and whether they ignore her, talk to her, or try to pet her, her reaction is just about the same.  She just backs off.  She doesn't seem overly nervous, she lies down and rests.  When we encounter people on walks, she just keeps her distance.  If someone asks to pet her and they put their hand out for her to sniff, she sniffs it and then backs off.  I have a friend that comes over and doesn't make eye contact or talk to her and Harmonie just ignores her the entire time.  I have another friend that talks to her and Harmonie will approach her when she's sitting down and she lets her pet her.  

Harmonie has access to our fenced backyard, we live on a farm, she spends a lot of time outside barking and keeping a watch on things.  She comes in the house to check in and maybe take a nap, then back out.  I have noticed her being startled in the house.  One time she didn't know I was behind her and she jumped up and ran, then came right back when she realized it was me.  She gets startled outside with a loud noise that surprises her but she doesn't seem to be scared in an ongoing way... more just a startle until she quickly figures out what it is.

I tried to take her to get groomed last week and she was having no part of going into the building.  She was pulling and I couldn't/didn't want to drag her in because I figured if she wouldn't walk in, she wasn't going to have a good experience once inside.  I have made some mistakes with her grooming at home.  She is known for getting really muddy outside and I have used the hose to spray her feet off - she has started really resisting this and now it's almost impossible.  I have to go back to square one and take it super slow.  

Okay...on to the older dogs.  All 5 dogs are spayed/neutered.  I wouldn't say that the 12 year olds are showing much as far as aging.  I do think Taffie's (female) eyesight might be a little worse than it was.  Tigger (male) doesn't seem to be showing signs.  Poppie is definitely showing more signs of aging but I don't see any issues between him and Harmonie.  

Taffie sometimes cowers a bit or hangs back until Harmonie goes away.  Tigger doesn't seem to be affected at all.  Tigger pretty much holds his ground.  I would say after the initial encounter, they go back to normal.  Most of the time they all just do their own thing.  I don't think it has a lasting emotional impact.  One thing I do notice is that Harmonie seems to intentionally sit (sometimes) in front of the dog door so that the others can't go in the house.   About 2 times a day I hear someone bark to come in and when I go out, she is sitting right in front of the dog door.

I think I have a lot of work to do...  she has been a really good dog as far as being perfectly house broken, not destroying things, she doesn't jump up or anything like that...but, I haven't asked her to do much, she pretty much does what she wants.  I don't take her too many places for a few reasons, the craziness of the world right now, I don't go anywhere and, having 5 dogs makes taking 1 or 2 more difficult.  

While I wait for your reply, I'm going to take a read through the exercises and make a plan to start slowly working with her more.  If you have suggestions on any particular behaviors to start with, I'd appreciate the advice.  She's not overly food driven or toy driven.  The other day when I took her for a visit to the vet, I brought some cheese to reward her for going in and she had no interest in the cheese.

As always, I so appreciate your expertise and friendly advice.

Thanks,

Susan

[Adrienne]

Thank your for the additional details, they are very helpful. And thanks for posting her picture, from the fluff ball she was she is now an adolescent. https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/survive-dogs-adolescent-stage/

Gotta love that adorable face! I am sure she's having a blast on your farm!

I will start by tackling her leery behavior. Her behavior towards strangers sounds quite typical for the breed. They are typically a rather reserved breed. Bred for solitary work guarding sheep in the mountain valleys with little or no human guidance, Pry are quite independent thinkers with a tendency for figuring things out for themselves.

When meeting new people, they may therefore act quite reserved, compared to other dog breeds that can be very outgoing. Of course, this is just a generalization. I know some that are very friendly, but things seem to start changing a bit as they reach social maturity. This reserved, slightly aloof demeanor though shouldn't be confused for shyness or fear. They just seem to need some time to warm up to people. The fact that she allows one of your friends to pet her may attest that. It could be she's just being a bit discriminative on who to befriend, but as long as there is no fear or aggression, but just being aloof, I wouldn't be too concerned. I would ask people to respect that and not force interactions if she's not up to that. 

With your guests in the home, she seems to be checking them out and then perceives them as no threat and and all is good. A good sniff and watching your response as well seems to reassure her. These dogs are very attuned to their owner's emotions, so she may know it's all good as well from how relaxed you appear.  Once che has drawn her conclusions, she can then relax and maybe even nap (or pretend to). I don't think there is fear there.  If you want to though, you can try having your guests/strangers on walks drop treats as she goes sniff them. This may just prove to her that they come in peace and can help create positive associations. Maybe this can give her some incentive for a littler warmer greeting in the future if you'd like, but she may also just eat the treat and leave, and care less-whatever.

So it seems like over all, she's just being reserved. According to the American Kennel Club standard, although this breed may appear reserved in the show ring, any sign of excessive shyness, nervousness, or aggression to humans is unacceptable and must be considered an extremely serious fault.

-If you therefore notice any signs of fear or aggression, then it would be important to intervene. 

On top of being reserved, Pry are often described as being very alert and attentive of their surroundings. As livestock guardians, they have to pay a lot of attention to their environment often distinguishing between situations calling for action and those posing no threat. 

They may not be very fond of changes or surprises, but mostly because of their protective/territorial nature. They are normally quick in noticing something being amiss more because of their attentiveness than fear. They seem to want to be on top of everything and know what's going on.

I heard dog owners sometimes report their Pry noticing right away if they happened to move something from its regular spot. This change would trigger close investigation and perhaps even some circling and barking until they feel it’s not a threat. They have very sensitive hearing and can detect outdoor sounds even with all your windows closed in the house and the TV and air-conditioner running. Their alertness to some unusual sight or sound may cause them to ignore you as they are totally focused on investigating it until they feel -it's all good. 

This alertness though should not include much fear. Ideally, great Pyrenees should not act fearful or overly hesitant or nervous of new situations or people or sudden movements or noises. According to the standard for this breed, "The Great Pyrenees is confident, gentle, and affectionate. While territorial and protective of his flock or family when necessary, his general demeanor is one of quiet composure, both patient and tolerant. He is strong willed, independent and somewhat reserved, yet attentive, fearless and loyal to his charges both human and animal." Fearless, confident and courageous are therefore desired traits in these dogs. "

Now you mention: "Could have been something prior to her time with me - I do recall she was very shy and scared when I first brought her home."  It could be possible that her breeder hasn't worked too hard on selectively breeding for confidence. It has been proven that a fearful disposition can be passed down genetically from a generation to another. There is a growing concern with backyard breeders mating dogs with little consideration other than making some quick money. Also concerning is the practice of some farmers who place their 6 to 8-week old pups with livestock from such a young age with the purpose of inculcating a strong desire to protect. Doing so though can be counterproductive as it deprives young puppies from important early socialization and human handling which can lead to a pup who bonds very strongly with livestock, but grows excessively afraid/suspicious of humans and all the normal sights and sounds of a home, regardless of the parents' temperaments. 

Overall, it is good though that once she gets startled she investigates the source of her fears and then recovers rather quickly. More concerning are dogs who are fearful and avoid whatever they fear, running away to take cover and have a long recovery period. 

 

[Adrienne]

 In regards to grooming, this thread has some behavior modification general guidelines for dogs reluctant to having their ears, paws and eyes cleaned. Of course, use a muzzle if concerned or enlist the in-person help of a dog behavior professional if you are concerned about any possible biting. 

And here are some tips for making bath-time more pleasant. 

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/fear-water-bathing/

I hope this helps! Will be posting about the other issue in my next post in the next few hours. 

Disclaimer: behavior modification comes with risks. If your dog is acting aggressively, please seek out the in person-guidance of a dog behavior professional for safety and correct implementation.

[Adrienne]

In regards to Harmonie's behavior towards your other smaller dogs, this can be part of her growing up and reaching social maturity (a time when in many households dog-to-dog interactions tend to deteriorate somewhat)-but it could also be your dogs getting older.  I know you say that she doesn't do that to Poppie, but maybe it's just easier for her practice this behavior on smaller dogs versus larger ones for now.

On top of this, sometimes it can be that dogs sharing the same household are so in tune with each other that they may detect something is amiss, even earlier than we may notice (or the dog shows visible signs) and Pry are known to have a strong attention to details so it could she's picking up something. Even if there's not much going on health-wise, sadly, it's not uncommon for younger dogs to start challenging older ones as they start sensing them slowing down or weakness. It could also be that Tigger is sensing Taffie's vision issue and feels her vulnerability and is protecting her and Harmonies doesn't like that. There can be several dynamics going on. 

A younger dog may start challenging older dogs by pinning the older dog down or even blocking the other dog's entry into the house or preventing passage through tight passageways or corners. Sometimes, aggravating factors are a loss of hearing or vision or a touch of arthritis, which prevents the older dog from giving out appeasement signals or moving away as they normally would, which can cause younger dogs to escalate. It's unfortunate, but in general, one episode often means another will follow, so this type of behavior tends to become a pattern. 

It is reassuring though that this seems to be mostly noise, with your smaller dogs not apparently being emotionally impacted much, but we need to still heed with caution. It is possible for just noisy interactions to just let them be, but there are too many stories of dogs being allowed to "sort things out" on their own, eventually getting ugly and we never know when or how this may happen. There is a big size difference between your dogs so that's something to consider.  

On top of this, things tend to go more smoothly when other dogs don't object to the younger dog's "challenges." A growl back may escalate things rather than a dog who gives leeway or gives appeasement signals to avoid conflict. 

On the other hand, there can be some other dynamics going on. Dog-to-dog interactions can sometimes be quite complex and requires some close observations to identify what may be going on. Sometimes, what looks like something may be something else. Perhaps, that a different scent may be at play. Maybe some time back you took your small dogs somewhere and they smelled different and from that day on, she feels like she needs to check them out. Maybe your older dogs are now objecting to being checked out in such a pushy way. Some dogs will tolerate a brief sniff as a meet and greet but longer sniffing and standing over may be objected to, leading to a squabble. 

I feel that in circumstances as such, it may be best to take steps from preventing the behavior from occurring in the first place if possible. Things that come to mind are the following:

-You can try to re-introduce your dogs when either one has headed out, with a walk outside in neutral territory rather in the home. So if Harmonie was out, let her stay with you out on leash while a helper takes the small dogs out on leash as well and starts walking, or if the two dogs were out, have them wait outside and take Harmonie out and start walking. Keep some distance. Parallel walking may work well (you have your Pry on one side, a helper walks next to you with the smaller dogs on the other side). Feed your Pry treats every time she looks at your smaller dogs and have your helper feed treats every time your smaller dogs look at your Pry. The walk can work as a stress-releaser and may take away that sudden impact of meeting again inside the home. It can also help create positive associations since you are feeding Harmonie treats for looking at the small dogs.  You can then walk them back, perhaps making them greet in the large yard (with more space rather than tighter quarters) hoping that things have de-escalated by then. 

-You can see if having her sniff them from behind while she is on leash and the small dogs are on leash works to help reduce the "novelty factor". In other words, at some point, have a helper have your small dogs walk ahead and your Pry behind and let her sniff their behinds. Frontal meetings can be perceived as confrontational and this can help reduce some conflict.  Feed her a treat when she sniffs them, and have a helper feed a treat to the small dogs when they are sniffed. 

-Always supervise your dogs when they are together in the home. Have a plan in place should a fight occur. You may need to interrupt it, but it is best not to get in between fighting dogs to prevent a re-directed bite. Options to separate include using a small air horn, ringing the door bell, using buckets of water or a water hose, banging together two pot lids. 

-Avoid corrections. I am sure you are not doing this, but I always point it out for any readers. As tempting as it may be to correct your dogs from growling, this is communication and dogs "using their words." If we suppress the growling, the dogs may go straight to a bite. 

-Consider behavior modification through counterconditioning and desensitization.  You will need to enlist the help of a dog behavior professional for safety and correct implementation. An example may include throwing a party and letting your Pry feel like she won the lottery every time your twins make their appearance through the door. When your twins are then taken out again, no more treats. This is to clarify that good things happen contingent upon the twins entering.  This is best done initially with the dogs on leash and one helper for each dog. 

It goes without saying that if these issues seem to escalate or you notice them happening more and more, your best bet is to separate the dogs and enlist the help of a dog behavior professional for an in-person assessment and recommendations based on observations and your dog's behavioral or medical histories.  Ideally, look for a board-certified veterinary behaviorist or a Certified Applied Animal Behaviorist.

I hope this helps,

Best,

Adrienne

 

[s_wiss13]

Thank you for your detailed replies.  I will review them carefully and try to put some of the suggestions in place.  I will be returning to Harmonie today after having the twins and Poppie away for the weekend to get groomed.  I will try to have them all meet in the driveway and go for a quick walk to see if that stops the initial re-introduction issues. I can try that today because there will be someone home to help.  I need to think through some options for times when I return on my own.  Once I get through today, I will practice that a few times this week after short trips.  Typically the only time this happens is if any of them need to get groomed or go to the vet.

I'll keep an eye on her leeriness - I don't think she's going to be a show dog!  But, I don't want her to feel fear.  So far, I think it's more aloofness 

Thank you for the advice on avoiding the corrections when she's growling.  That makes a lot of sense.

I have a lot to read and understand and then a lot to put in practice.  I sometimes find myself getting complacent since the dogs have the run of the yard and house and typically don't cause much issue.  I do know I need to spend more time with her to keep her learning and a cooperative member of the family.

[Adrienne]

You are very welcome!

A weekend away at the groomer is quite some time. They will smell very different too. When working for a vet, we used to have a similar issue with pets attacking other pets that had recently seen the vet just because they smelled "different." In such cases, it helped to pass a towel where the pet seeing the vet normally slept over their bodies to allow them to re-assume a more familiar smell. This is something you can try as well as there's likely some scent issue at play. 

I would start by proceeding straight for the walk rather than letting them meet in the driveway. This because we want them moving and walking to get a sense of "togetherness" and then proceed to praise/reward for looking at them and then sniffing their behinds taking a gradual approach. Watch for signs of tension. If things look tense on the walk or when returning home while you still have them on leash, it may help to keep them separated for a while with the use of a baby gate so to get her gradually used to seeing each other. This gives them a cooling- off period, and your twins may be a bit stressed from the groomer too and may need a little time too.

I know when talking about breed standards, we think about show dogs, but breed standards are like the bible to dog breeders. It gives them guidelines to ensure their breeding stock have the correct temperament for the breed and conformation to avoid passing down hereditary traits which can have an impact as well on dogs kept as companions. 

Disclaimer: behavior modification comes with risks. If your dog is acting aggressively, please seek out the in person-guidance of a dog behavior professional for safety and correct implementation. 

[s_wiss13]

The reunion went pretty well.  We all met outside and went for the walk.  Harmonie was interested in seeing them, we kept walking and let her sniff them from behind.  There was one small growl from her but no additional confrontation, we kept moving.  She continued to show quite a bit of focused attention on them for a little while after we returned to the house and yard but no growling.  

Just for some context, I spend time in two places, home with all the dogs during the week and then I travel to my other home with typically 2 dogs on the weekends.  I have a house mate that stays with the dogs.  I usually take Poppie and Maxx with me on the weekends unless it's time for grooming.  Harmonie shows no signs of the growling when I return each weekend with Maxx and Poppie, in fact she is excited and happy each time.  

I will definitely keep in mind using the towel to help with the smell in the future.  

[s_wiss13]

P.S.  After 2 days of being home, everything is back to normal.  Harmonie tries to play with them but mostly just lets them be and no one appears nervous.

[Adrienne]

Thank you for the update!

Glad to hear things are back to normal. I think with time, if we keep up with creating positive associations (using treats) upon seeing them and smelling them during a group walk, with time, we may be able to change her emotional response and we may no longer get a growl, but more happy, relaxed body language. In behavior modification, it's important to watch that body language and prevent dogs from going over threshold. The goal is to obtain what's known as a conditioned emotional response. 

 I know it can be annoying to pass a towel with old doggy smell on dogs who were recently groomed and smell great to us, but if that helps Harmonie better accept them, it may be worth it. 

It is interesting that she does not do this with Poppie and Max after they leave the house and come back and even if they are recently groomed. It could be she just feels more confident with the little ones or perhaps the little ones object to her sniffing by getting tense and she is pushy about that and growls to correct their reluctance and they growl back. There may also be something more subtle at play that we cannot detect, considering how dogs are so in tune with things.