New pup with "old" new pup

[AmmieHowell]

Hi, we have a 17 week male kelpie x sheppard who we have had for 8 weeks. He is a smart dog but would jump and nip the young kids while playing (yep this is normal). Yesterday we got a 12 week female Sheppard x staghound as my niece could not keep her. My 17 week pup will not give up play fighting with her. There doesn't seem to be aggression unless she has had enough, but he keeps going. Is this normal? My other concern is will the play fighting turn my pups into aggressive dogs with children or around other dogs out in public? This sounds like a silly question but I'm new to puppies. My last girl was a rescue dog who had the most gentle soul and lived a happy life til 14

[Adrienne]

Hi there,

Welcome to the forums!

With puppies play fighting, they are often making all kinds of horrible noises and they'll often be a good amount of chasing, pinning and wrestling. There is a slight age gap between your pups and maybe some size differences too. On top of this, kelpies and kelpie mixes in general can surely be a handful on many aspects (the nipping, needing to be kept busy and mentally stimulated, independent streak) which can surely play a role in how he's behaving with this new pup. Since you own mixes though, we have a mixed bag genes, so it's not very easy to predict how certain breed tendencies may impact them.  

In general, with rough puppy playing, the most important factor is ensuring that everybody is having fun and that there are no injuries or hard feelings. We want to see play bows (where pups display their butt-in-the-air while the front-end stays down), bounciness (a rocking-chair gait) and several pauses throughout play to ensure the encounter remains a friendly one rather than an antagonist one. 

Things to watch for that are possibly suggestive of play getting out of hand are the following:

-Your kelpie always being on top, focusing excessively on biting the head or neck area and a puppy always trying to evade the bully puppy.

-Lack of taking turns. One dog is constantly mounting, chasing, pinning down and doing all the biting. Normal, healthy dog play should have puppies ideally taking turns in doing role reversals. 

-Lack of breaks. Playing pups should take little brief breaks every now and then.

-Too many non-inhibited bites. An uninhibited bite can happen occasionally, but repeated offenses may signal that play has gotten out of hand and the pup's play style is too rough.

-Relentless play up on hind legs can be indicative of problems

-Growling is often normal during play, but pay attention should the growls get much louder and lower pitched.

-Check your female pup's body language during play. Is she constantly trying to escape with her tail held between her legs? Is she trying to hide behind you or trying to hide behind furniture? In this case, play is getting overwhelming for her.

As mentioned, a key sign of good and appropriate social play is that all parties are having fun and are willing participants. If you suspect one puppy is being bullied or is not enjoying the activity, gently separate the pups and see if the suspected bullied pup will go back for more.

If your female pup does immediately go back to the "bully" for more play, most likely she's enjoying the interaction despite how rough it looks. If she is not interested or even seems to sneak away, most likely the other pup's play was truly too much for her.

If you notice any signs of her having enough, interrupt play before she has to get serious about it and separate the pups. Your kelpie mix needs to learn when to stop and respect her body language for a break if she doesn't communicate that  too effectively. With time though she may grow more confident and you may see her gaining more respect.

Since you just got her yesterday, it could also be that your kelpie mix is super attracted to her because of the novelty factor and things may calm down a bit in the next few days. When we had new puppies at daycare, the resident pups were often obsessed with them the first few days as they just had this strong need for play with other pups unfulfilled and they engaged in exaggerated play the first days to compensate for that.

It can also be that your new pup may also get drained much quicker due to a different energy level. It may therefore help to tire your Kelpie mix out (brain games, training, play with you) prior to allowing play time with her so that he is less boisterous. It can also help to provide a long tug toy that both can tug on during play so they engage in less physical play. 

To answer your question, play fighting among pups doesn't normally tend to lead to deteriorated interactions with us humans. Actually, play among pups helps refine both parties' bite inhibition, it can be a great outlet for pent-up energy, relieves stress or tension and helps create a better bond-as long as it remains play where both parties are enjoying the interaction. When play gets out of hand and it's too overwhelming and intense in form, the affected puppy may come to dread play and may engage into avoidance or turn defensive in the long run. So it's important being any victim pup's advocate and giving timeouts as often as needed until bully pup learns to play more gently. 

When things with humans risk deteriorating is when we get in between two dogs who are fighting (which may lead to a re-directed dog bite), when dogs start resource guarding things (food, bones, sleeping places) when they aren't socialized enough, when they are startled, awoke from sleep abruptly or they are in a too aroused state, when they aren't used to being handled, when they are startled/fearful, when they aren't feeling well, when they are particularly stressed, just to name a few circumstances.

All interactions between dogs and children should always be closely monitored. Children shouldn't play roughly with the pups, no petting dogs while they are eating, chewing, resting or sleeping, no teasing of course. 

It goes without saying that training good bite inhibition is a must. Here are some guides on bite inhibition:

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/bite-inhibition-games/

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/train-dog-take-treats-gently/

With children, things are always more challenging when it comes to nipping because they move faster or scream or do other things that excite puppies. If the children are engaging in boisterous play among each other (running, screaming, playing with a ball) it is best to keep the puppy in another room to prevent him from getting too excited and engage in excessive biting and jumping. Best to avoid the children engaging in games that encourage the pup to chase and nip at them. Erecting baby gates in the home can help so kids and pups have separated areas to play/relax.

Remember that all interactions are training opportunities, so best to involve the puppy when the kids are calm and there is space for good learning opportunities. Make sure you are all ready for the training and equipped (treat bags on you, toys handy). Teach games that encourage the pups to use their brain (hide and seek, hand targeting, obedience training). Make more and more room for interactions that do not get your pups into full biting mode.

With young pups as such it's very important socializing them and providing ongoing socialization:

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/socializing-your-puppy/

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/socializing-puppy-children/

Being two pups close in age, it would be important ensuring they don't bond too much that they come to ignore us humans and fail to bloom individually. Try your best to train, socialize, play with your pups separately and individually so they have the opportunity to bloom to their potential and get to bond with their family.  Here's a post of how we can accomplish that:

 

In regards to how they will behave around other dogs in public this is based on several factors. Some dogs will do fine being around other dogs, others tolerate other dogs, some dogs become dog reactive. We can keep up their social skills through ongoing socialization, preventing negative interactions and training them good leash manners. Some dogs may get along well with other dogs as youngsters and then things change as they reach the adolescent stage, they may get pickier over who to be-friend and some may come to not like other dogs.  

Yours are certainly not silly questions! I have yet to hear a silly question about dogs. 

I hope this helps! Let me know if you have other questions,

Happy training!

Best,

Adrienne 

 

 

 

[AmmieHowell]

Thanks, this has eased my mind :) Things have settled down a lot today. They were in the yard for most of the day and both had good rests/sleep. Marlu (my kelpie) had his final injection today, not sure if like humans it can affect the dog, but today was a better day. I appreciate your reply and Marlu loves the training. He sits, drops, targets, takes his rewards so gently and is slowly coming around to the leash. 

[Adrienne]

Aww, cute pups, love the pictures! It's so nice to see them relaxing together. Vaccines can sometimes make pups a little drowsy, but hopefully it's mostly because he's getting used to the novelty of your new pup and has drained up his energy. Marlu is a very smart pup and your new pup will learn from him. He can also help train her showing her where she needs to potty.

If he's struggling a bit with the leash, here is a little guide to create positive associations with it:

Attaching the  Leash

Start by creating positive associations with the leash. Just as with the collar, hide behind your back and then present it, feeding your puppy treats when he looks at it and sniffs it and then once he's done inspecting it, place it behind your back and no more treats.

Next, start getting your pup used to the sound of the clasp. Keep the leash behind your back, then make the snapping sound of the clasp and feed a treat. Clasp sound/treat, clasp sound/ treat, clasp sound/treat.

Next, proceed to attaching the leash, give a treat, then unclip it and feed another one. Rinse and repeat. The leash snapped/unsnapped to the collar should become a cue that a treat is coming!

Walking with the Leash on

Next, have a helper snap the leash on feed a treat and then you call your dog to you with him dragging it and give a treat. Unclip the leash and give a treat. Rinse and repeat.

Teaching to Give into Pressure 

Next, further raise criteria. Snap the leash on and hold it, walk a few steps ahead and call your dog to you, give treats when he reaches you. Try to avoid pulling your dog harshly on the leash considering that this will create negative associations with its use.

Teach your pup to give into the leash pressure rather than resist it. Sit on the couch and if he moves away, gently put pressure on the leash and show him a treat so that he learns to give in to the pressure. Praise and reward.

Start walking your pup on leash. If your pup lags behind or pulls in another direction, coax him to catch up and keep walking by showing a treat. The moment the leash becomes loose when he catches up, praise and reward with the treat.

More on leash training here:

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/brain-training/obedience-101/heeling-attention-heeling/

Best,

Adrienne