5 mth puppy not food, praise or toy driven

[MarilynBanister]

Hi,

What do you do when your 5 mth old labradoodle puppy is not overly excited about food, praise or toys?  She is very smart (to smart) and learns very quickly.  I have been working real hard with her Come here, she does everything perfect on the leash...but off it is another story... most days she is great about it, she will come and than sit..... inside and outside.  But when she is in a mood...it all goes out the window.  She will come when she wants, get real close and then take off as if it is a game... and to me....COME is not a game it is THE MOST IMPORTANT thing she will learn.  I have a 12 year old lab that just me calling his name he will come to me immediately.  When she is in that mode nothing will stop her and I have tried running in the opposite direction, treats, calling her in a exciting voice, even showing her a ball and tug toy.  Please help, she knows all the other commands very well, but this one I can't figure it out.

Thank you,

M

[Adrienne]

Hello and welcome to the forums!

If your pup  has learned very quickly, you must have been using some type of reinforcer that has made the behavior worthy of performing. I know you said "not food, praise or toy driven" in your title, but if she has learned to be perfect on leash, whatever you have used acted as a reinforcer otherwise her on leash skills would have gone extinct. Of course, we would like to see some more excitement about reinforcers in some pup, but some can just be that way, they'll eat what is offered and that's good enough for them. 

What you are describing sounds pretty much rather normal puppy behavior for a puppy of this age. At 5 months, your pup is getting more independent and is finding things in her environment intriguing and entertaining (and reinforcing!). You can't compare her to your 12 year old Labrador, because she is much younger and there are lots of changes happening in her brain at this delicate time of development. Here is a read about this phase:

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/flight-instinct-period-4-8-months/

and right about that time, add the onset of doggy adolescence:

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/survive-dogs-adolescent-stage/

So what can be done in such a case? Here are some tips that come to mind:

-I would firstly avoid keeping her off leash unless she's in a securely fenced, safe yard. She's way too young for off-leash privileges on walks and not mature enough to have that level of impulse control which comes with loads of training and maturity. 

-I would avoid for now trying to grab her or her collar when you call her off leash as it sounds like your pup is trying to engage you in the "keep away" game. The keep away game is a game where dogs want to play hard to catch. Another possibility is that you may have called her in the past and grabbed her by collar and then provided a consequence that she didn't find reinforcing at all or that led to making all the fun end (taking her back inside where things are more boring, clipping the leash on when she was free, scolding her). 

-However, I would aim to teach her that collar grabs are not something to worry about (but something extra reinforcing) just in case you ever need to get her in case of an emergency. So in a quiet setting such as starting at home, you can practice some fun collar grabs. Collar grabs are discussed in the recall section of obedience 101, you can find how to condition a puppy to them by scrolling down the recall section:

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/brain-training/obedience-101/recall/

-I would suggest for now calling her only when you know you have a high chance of her coming to you.  So don't call when you just send her out in the yard and she is in full exploration mode or when she is sniffing or having fun. Don't call her when she is that "mode." If you take your dog out first thing in the morning in your yard to explore, give her time to sniff around and monitor the changes that have occurred from yesterday. Yes, your dog notices changes. There may be new bird poop in the yard, the bugs may been digging a hole, and your dog may want to relieve herself. Let her explore her environment. Then, after a while, you will notice she is content with his exploration and may be less intent in sniffing/searching/releasing energy.  When she starts looking a bit tired, bored, hot or thirsty, this may be a good time to call her, reward her with something she likes and then have her follow you in the home to drink and be offered some chew toy she only gets sometimes. 

-Practice solid responses to recalls in quiet areas with little distractions (indoors, then yard) and then gradually work up your way towards distractions. If your pup at some point, doesn't listen, carefully evaluate the situation. What was she doing at the moment? Was she running around having fun? Was she sniffing an interesting spot? Keep this in consideration, so next time you wait to call her, but plan on working on it eventually as you build a more powerful recall.

Consider this: every time you call your dog and she doesn't come, you are weakening your recall, when she does come instead, you are strengthening it. Therefore set her up for success and aim to put more coins in the piggy bank with successful recalls rather than taking the coins out. Make the ratio of responding much higher than not responding by starting with easy recalls and creating a strong response to them. 

- Here's the thing: the recall needs to be music to a dog's ears. So it's important to find reinforcers that "compete" and win over whatever she has been doing when she hasn't listened to your recall. There is food and FOOD and toys and TOYS. Many times we think we are using something valuable, but it needs to be valuable from the dog's perspective not ours. So a pet store clerk ma say " these are treats dogs go bonkers over" but that's a general statement. Not all dogs will go bonkers over it obviously. Many dogs may do better with dog-safe people foods (roasted chicken, baked liver, low-sodium hotdogs, string cheese)-ask your vet  if your dog has allergies/intolerances.

It may help experimenting with a variety of foods/treats/toys and see her response to them. You can't expect a great response if you offer your dog toys that she sees around the home all the time or foods she eats every day. She needs to be surprised with something that will leave a strong impression in her mind. 

-Don't be stingy. The recall is a very important cue, along with the leave it and drop it, it can be a life saver. So I like to be generous and when the dog comes to me when called I offer several treats in a row to ensure it leaves " a mark' on the dog. 

-Reward voluntary check-ins. When you are out in a fenced yard with her off leash, and she approaches you, praise and feed a tasty treat from your treat bag or pocket. This promotes closeness and reinforces her for checking on you versus other competing stimuli in the environment. If you do this often enough, a time may come where even off leash she will still stick by your side now and then, versus being completely oblivious to your presence. This will help build a bond. 

When I used to teach group classes for an association, we often had during the first day of class the owners walking around with their dog off leash. Often the dogs wandered around and weren't much aware where their owners were, even when the owner was out of sight for a few seconds. At the end of class, we repeated this and it was impressive how focused their dogs were this time, following the owner around and always keeping an eye on them. It was evident that they had bonded together over the 8-week class.

-Remember: this may be just a phase. I think I know what you mean when she's in that "mode." I have seen some pups who will just look at their owners with a blank stare as they run away and call with an excited tone and these pups just look as if their owners have gone crazy. With more practice and reinforcement history, they get a more reliable response over time.

I hope this helps,

Keep me posted on how things go!

I am always here to do more deeper troubleshooting should the problem persist. I have a feel though that this may just be a phase and that she may a little "tweaking" in getting a more fluid response 

 

 

[MarilynBanister]

Thank you so much for the response!!   Great information for me to chew on.   I live on a mountain and always have her in a big open field when I let her off leash with her big brother.  She doesn't run far and always stays close, but just like you said... does the Catch me if you can game.  I know she was not ready to go back home and wanted to continue to play in the field (even though I have a half acre of fenced in yard, I know they can get bored).  I will work with the information you gave me and let you know.  Thank you again for the help, much appreciated.

[Adrienne]

You are very welcome!

This reminds me of my childhood, when my dad would call me to come home to do my homework when I was outside playing soccer with the neighbors' kids. We walked home together as we went to the same school and once we arrived in front of the home we would take off our backpacks and play.  I hated going home when I was having so much fun, but things changed when my mom had the brilliant idea of letting me have my favorite ice-cream before doing homework. Since then, I would rush back home, with my mouth watering along the way!

If she's struggling to come back home after playing in the open field, it may help to stop calling her specifically for that for now (until we have established a stronger reinforcement history) to avoid poisoning the recall. In training lingo, "poisoning the cue" means creating negative associations with a cue that may weaken overtime. This because going back inside can be perceived as unpleasant to an active dog who loves exploring and smelling around, especially if there are traces of wild animal in the field. 

So maybe skip the recall for now and see if you can do some other things that can attract her to follow you inside. So once she has spent time romping, exploring and getting a bit tired, you can maybe try dragging a flirt pole and enticing her to chase it until home or offer a rabbit-fur tug toy to tug at it on the way home, or maybe we can take advantage of her brother's good recall and call him and give him something super good that she'll look forward to having too. Maybe also randomly feed them some treats as they walk back with you. Sometimes, just casually walking away once they realize they are alone may prompt them to follow you. 

We can also turn going back home into a looked-forwarded to routine. Like every day, upon entering the home, we can walk inside and immediately go to the kitchen to unwrap a bit  of cream cheese or peanut butter to fill up a stuffed Kong for each to enjoy for some down time. 

With dogs I board and train, I always make it fun to go inside and even put it on cue by saying  happily "let's go inside!" and once in, I toss in the air a handful of kibble for the dogs to search so to make the indoors more reinforcing. This makes my life much easier since many dogs aren't trained yet when they arrive. 

Once you have established a history of going back inside a look-forwarded to event, you can then practice adding your recall knowing that you'll get a more reliable response. 

 

[MarilynBanister]

Thank you so much.....I followed what you said and had the perfect test today!!!  What you said really worked.  She was doing great with recall until....My older dog hunted up a mole...she ran and grabbed it...I called her and she had the prize so she came to me and did the catch me if you can. I stopped calling her and let her have it (we havent worked enough on Drop It yet)  she played with it and I didn't say anything...she finally got bored and dropped it.   I called her again and she came and sat down and took her treat.  Walking back I did not do any recall, she followed me back home got in the gate with no issues.  She even came to me when I was walking and I didn't call her...I just gave her a treat and off she went...like she was just checking in  lol.

Thank you for all the help!!! 

[Adrienne]

That's great to hear! If 

Keep me posted on her progress. 

Happy training!

Best,

Adrienne 

[MarilynBanister]

Just wanted to show you how well Bella is doing with your great advice.  True test with deer.

[Adrienne]

That's awesome! Not easy at all with deer being so close! 

That's the enthusiastic type of recalls I am always after. 

Keep up the great work!