Learned Behavior from Other Dogs?

[JMFS]

Google wasn't entirely helpful and I didn't find an answer here for this specific question.  I Kind of know how to go about correcting it, but it's going to be challenging.

Can dogs learn behavior from other dogs?  My answer is yes, but I'm not sure to what extent.  They learn it from their litter mates, but in those cases it's more of a correction of a bad behavior rather than learning a bad behavior from their litter mates (bad being our human interpretation).

Here's the issue.  Abbi is mean to Gertie when Gertie is simply curious.  Gertie used to not have an aggressive bone in her body (unless you happened to be small, furry / feathered / twitchy and not a dog or cat).  Gerts used to sniff around Abbi when Abbi was eating.  Treat, toy, or food, didn't matter - Gerts was curious.  My theory - she ran the streets with her brother and they shared everything so Gertie never learned Not to share.  Until Abbi.  When Gertie would approach Abbi Abbi would go absolutely stark raving mad.  Biting Gertie's throat level of insanity.  Good thing Abbi is only 10 lbs on a good day!  Gertie used to back away and consider what happened; however, recently Gertie has started aggressing back, and worse she is now resource guarding!  You know how I went through that with Mo and I am stressed out considerably that I'm going through it again with a dog we Thought was neutral.  Poor Monkey approached her from behind the other day while she was working on a treat and she snapped at him.  He used to be able to rub up against her while she was snacking and she didn't care.  I'm afraid Abbi has spoiled this once docile pup of mine.

So, Momo is a resource guarder.  Abbi is a resource guarder.  Gertie is becoming a resource guarder.  How the heck do I train it out of her if I don't have a neutral party to work with?!  I simply will not stand for this nonsense again.  She's 150% trusting of me with taking treats or her food, thank goodness.  I used to roll her toy away from her then roll it back, roll it away, roll it back, to get her interested, but now I'm calling a halt to that.  I don't want to compound the issue and have to work with her like I did Mo in regards to humans.  If she's not interested then she's not interested and I'll leave it at that.

Yesterday was the worst.  We were outside, I was doing Gerts' claws with the dremel and had treats next to us to reward her for being excellent.  Abbi's dang nose starts working and she begins meandering over to us.  She gets too close for Gertie's comfort and it's on.  We're not sure if Gertie lunged for Abbi, if Abbi managed to make it to the food or just get close, but what we are sure of is that both girls were fighting and neither was backing away.  Gertie had her mouth on Abbi's head.  Abbi was knocked over immediately because she's weak and tiny, but we're not sure if Gertie did it or if Abbi simply lost her balance in her state of infirm.  Abbi was snapping and snarling even after I managed to pull Gertie away (I know, I know, don't get my hands involved, I know!).  I grabbed Gerts by the scruff and pulled her back to me, then let go of her scruff (she's still got a ton of loose skin) and put my arm in front of her chest to hold her back.  She calmed down quickly, but Abbi was still pressing forward.  She's out of her mind, even after getting her butt kicked she's trying to get to Gertie, snarling and snapping.  Husband finally scoops Abbi up, I move Gertie, and the treats, away.  Everyone's back to normal, no marks or wounds on Abbi.  I start dremeling again and the treats are on the windowsill Well out of Abbi's reach and husband has Abbi 20 feet away.  Gertie starts jerking her foot like she wants to be released (not because of the dremel - she actually falls asleep when I do that).  I look around and the flippin' cat is stretched up, sniffing at the windowsill. GAH!  So I shoo him away, Gertie kind of moves in and I push her away with my leg then we move further on down the sidewalk away from Everything.  Including the dang fire ant pile I was stepping in <sigh>.  🔥

I am struggling to think of how to accomplish peace in the household when Abbi is psychotic (lol, I know she's not but that's how it seems!).  We do practice management by feeding them / giving them treats away from one another and never leaving them together with food around.  I didn't think that Abbi, in her weakened state and being 15 feet away And being such a brat about wanting Gertie to stay away from her own food, would have wandered over to Gertie's territory to sniff out that food.  I was wrong.  Now I know Abbi can't be outside with us if I'm giving treats.  Gertie is less aggressive with Monkey - probably because Monkey is like, "duuuude, chill, I was just gonna rub on ya', man.  Didn't know you had food, it's all yours, bye." when Gertie turns on him.  But, cats aren't into training so I can't really use him.  Why oh why can't I have dogs, like one of my brothers, who play tug of war with rawhides or toys and don't care if the other one wins?!  What magic spell did they cast on these animals who weren't even raised together?!  At some point I start to think it's me!  I know it's not, it's more usual for dogs to guard than to share, I just Really thought Gertie was a sharing pup and that's changed.

I've started having the husband work with her because she doesn't trust him as much (possibly because he's always near Abbi when she goes Code Cujo?).  He thought he could take things from her but a) he oversells it making a big deal of the action and b) he is not very good with doggy body language.  He was being all chipper about trying to take her Dentastix (super high value to her) then being hesitant about taking it and when she pushed her head forward and down on top of the treat he kept approaching.  I told him to stop and back away.  I've got my work cut out for me.    I started him today with putting beef lung (gross!) into her bowl while she was eating her breakfast.  We'll work up to trading low value items for high value.  We were at a restaurant Friday and there was a chip on the ground.  I told her to leave it and she did. I immediately rewarded her and she didn't go near the chip again.  She and I are pretty solid.  Had that been chicken I think she may have snatched it quickly, I'm not sure, though.  We do need to reinforce the leave command as we haven't worked on it in quite some time.

Do you have any words of wisdom beyond management?  I don't want to end up with a trip somewhere ending in some sort of contention if there's a tasty morsel around.  At the very least I want to ensure My dog is the one with manners.

[Adrienne]

I agree with you that dogs can learn from other dogs. Einstein learned quickly raised leg urination upon seeing my father in law's collie urine mark and Petra once saw me training this collie to do steps of attention heeling, but he would sort of raise his head high trying to snatch the treat every few steps and next thing I know, Petra is doing this same upward movement after just one trial of watching him and she never did this before!

When potty training puppies, I always had my Rotties show them where to pee in the yard and they must have done it with such an exemplary satisfactory look on their faces that pups caught quickly and started peeing in the yard like champs. Recent research has also have found evidence that suggests that dogs can engage in social learning which includes the ability to observe the actions of other dogs and imitate them to learn new behaviors. 

So much so that Claudia Fugazza, a dog trainer in Italy and her colleagues have discovered that not only can dogs imitate other dogs, but they can also imitate people. Fugazza therefore crafted her own " Do As I Do protocol" and even wrote a book on it. 

Back to your case though, I think if this is a new behavior, we must also consider all the recent changes Abbi has gone through. Abbi can smell differently from being at the vet, Abbi is now super hungry and Abbi may appear weaker to her household companions, and these changes in state of health can sometimes cause some unexpected changes within a group of dogs living together. So I think we should factor in these changes. 

I have seen this even with my dogs. When Petra was weaker, for the first time ever in her life she got in a rather serious squabble with Einstein. By serious, I mean of the type that for this first time ever I had to almost intervene because things were getting rather intense.

What happened is that Petra had some food in front of her that she didn't seem like she wanted to eat, and Einstein must have noticed that, so he decided to try to snatch it from her.  The moment he decided to try to approach the food he was met with loud barking and teeth snapping in all directions, and Einstein who normally would have backed away when she was healthier, this time was barking back and they were both at it. It was ugly to hear and watch. 

Lesson learned:  Petra was weaker, but just because of that, she wasn't willing to allow Einstein to have a free pass and give up her food to him. No way- even if she didn't want it. But Einstein must have felt that with her being weaker, he could have taken that chance and acted bolder than he would have usually done in the past. 

So from that day on, I made sure that Einstein wouldn't approach when Petra had food (he always responded well to his go to mat cue) and if she didn't eat it within a certain timeframe, I would remove it so to not institute in her a need to feel tense and propense to guarding.  Petra was always propense to guard things from Einstein, most of her life. When she had a valuable item such as a bully stick, she would go to her spot and Einstein better not approach. That was fine, Einstein respected that. Indeed, they were fed bully sticks at the same time, so this was never an issue, if he finished first and I would see him approach, I would redirect him back to his mat. If for some reason though he would approach her, he knew better not to mess with her as Petra was very serious about boundaries when in possession of something valuable. 

Here's the thing: When Dog A guards food and Dog B respects that, usually there is no problem. Sure, it's not fun to see dog A growl and act protective, but it's still ritualistic aggression, dogs using their words to avoid real conflicts.  Problems start when for some reason Dog B decides to act bolder and push things further. It may not always be that dog B gets bolder though, that may just be our perception. It could be also that, as dog A gets older or weaker, he or she may may no longer communicate effectively as before and gives mixed messages that cause dog B to get in trouble.

For instance, Petra would normally grab her bully stick and walk far from Einstein to eat in peace, with her head hovering over the possession. Instead, when sick, she would rather stay in one spot and place her head on her paws and  appear to nap and act disinterested. Einstein might have taken that as a sign that she was not interested in the food so he may have felt more compelled to 'test the waters" than he would have in the past when she was more actively guarding. 

So I think we must consider the recent changes. Abbi is more hungry than usual, on top of this, steroids can cause behavior changes and Gertie must be sensing she's getting weaker, and this whole ordeal creates tension, and changes are difficult in dogs who have shared the household for so long. 

So I think strict management may be the safest option at this point since you're sort of between a rock and a hard place considering that Abbi may not be feeling well and her threshold for aggression may have lowered. On top of this, Gertie may be sensing weakness and these are such subtle changes that, even though we can certainly work on changing the underlying emotions, it may be difficult to change these physical/behavioral changes (both due to illness/aging and side effects of meds) and perceptions. 

[JMFS]

Thank you, as always, for the extra insight.  I kind of thought that may be the case with Abbi.  I'll continue to manage and hope I don't slip again.

As I was reading I remembered another situation where Gertie and Momo were let in at the same time and came upstairs with me.  Gertie went to her bed, as usual, and I approached with Momo.  Mo got a little ahead of me and started sniffing Gertie's bone.  All of a sudden Gertie lunged at Momo and, for the first time in his life, Momo was on the run!  Now I'm trying to recall if he's ever come that close to her food before.  He's aggressed on her when she's approached his food and she's looked at him kind of the way Monkey looked at her.  I'm trying to recall, though, if Momo has ever gotten that close to her food in the past and I'm thinking the answer is no - there's always been the "raised crate" effect.  I have these two window areas that are about 20" off the ground and we turned those into crates by installing gates at the front.  Perhaps with her being higher and set back a bit Mo was at a distance she considered comfortable. 

The snap at Monkey (when he came up behind her, not the dremel instance) definitely surprised me as I've fed them treats together before by placing the treats on the ground.  She didn't mind one bit and ignored him.  I can understand the dremel instance because she still was in alert mode after her tussle with Abbi.

I think I'll need to observe more and for now with Momo and Abbi it will be management.  With Monkey I'll give counter-conditioning a whirl since she responded well to that yesterday and today with him.  Teach her that Monkey = treats.  Those two are buddies.  He accompanies her on her potty breaks and runs back to the door with her when I whistle.  He rubs against her, walks under her and slides his tail along her as he passes under, lol.  He even "cleans" her when she's standing still and doesn't bite her.  With Abbi those licks are preemptive of a bite so he's not allowed to lick Abbi, especially now.  Abbi used to harass the heck out of Monks, poking him with her nose trying to get him to run so she could chase, and biting his ears.  He'd just sit there and take it, going so far as to stretch out on his back while she was doing it.  Such a pacifist!  With him being almost 2x her size it was probably like a massage or any attention is good attention.  For the last couple years she hasn't had the inclination to bother him and I think he knows this so he's getting his payback.

It's always a comfort to hear that even dogs who live with people massively in tune with their nature can be buttheads (my human opinion).  I would so love to have my dogs love each other and share, though!  Max, our granite folks' 120 lb Rottie, is more than happy to share his bully sticks with human or canine, and I think that's just the sweetest thing!  Love that boy!  I got to see him the other day and when he put his paws on the counter he was almost as tall as me!  Little toot nearly knocked me over he was so excited to see me after all these months.  He's normally pretty calm and somber but this time he was popping all over the place, play bowing and jumping up.  Tsk tsk tsk, Max!  I turned my back on him and "boom" his butt went to the floor as he waited for more attention.  Then he dissolved into wiggles when I turned around, haha.

[Adrienne]

It would be truly wonderful if dogs could share to the extent humans do.. it would make our lives much easier! Every now and then on Youtube we see videos of owners raving about their dogs sharing bones and food bowls. As endearing as this can be, sometimes there are very subtle signs of impending trouble and even if things seem to go well overall, there's always that chance that things may change at some point. Close supervision for alterations is always a must. 

"Humans may prefer sharing food widely, but this is not the case among canines," points out Adam Miklosi in the book: "Dog Behaviour, Evolution, and Cognition." Here's the thing: from an ethological point of view, the protection of food is a typical behavior that has been observed among a dog's ancestors, the wolf and that has perpetuated into the dog most likely because it's an adaptive behavior (that ups the chances for survival in case of scarsity). 

David Mech who studied wolves during the summers of 1986 to 1998 on Ellesmere Island, Canada, described an ‘ownership zone’ around the wolves' mouth, or within lunging distance, which was respected by others. Sure, dogs aren't wolves, but they retain several traits, albeit they may have modified with time. With domestication, breeders and then owners mostly control access to food food distribution. However, often dog owners struggle with their dogs having squabble albeit innocent over resources such as toys, food and bones. That's understandable considering our culture.

Sometimes though dog owners may become intolerant of one dog repeatedly taking things from the other or guarding and he or she may reprimand such dog for guarding stuff from the other and for dogs refusing to share. Such unrealistic expectations though can risk making things much worse. "The expectation that dogs should inhibit this behaviour is either anthropomorphic or it assumes that this behaviour has been selected against during domestication. However, even in the latter case, many dogs need to be trained to show temperance," further points out Miklosi. 

"Dogs, being predators, come programmed to guard resources that are crucial to their survival as part of their behavioral inheritance from their ancestor, the wolf. Some of those resources may be in short supply at certain times of year or in certain environments, and are therefore valuable," says dog trainer Grisha Stewart. 

"Socially skilled adult dogs don't normally take things from each other by force. If it's in your zone it's yours until you relinquish it. These rules are not instinctive or innate. Dogs have to learn them. "points out Alexandra Semyonova. 

Of course, while dog-to dog guarding may be acceptable to certain levels where it's mostly communication and respect for personal spaces, we certainly though treat dog to human resource guarding differently, in terms of addressing it even if it's very subtle such as just a growl or a dog rushing to grab the resource as we're walking towards it. Early intervention in key.

This doesn't mean we should ignore dog-to-dog guarding, we just need to constantly monitor it to ensure things don't escalate and no dog is emotionally impacted as it can come to harm both parties (the dog who lashes out is most likely always stressed due to compulsive thoughts of losing the resource, the victim dog can become stressed being about even innocent things such as just walking around and breathing).

So the options to manage resource guarding are always these: strict management to prevent rehearsal of troublesome behavior (feeding food, treats, toys, bones or anything dogs seem to fight over in separated areas using crates, doors, exercise pens, extendable gates and baby gates.

 Cleaning up as much as possible, e.g. removing empty food bowls, pieces of bones, stuffing from toys and crumbs. 

Training obedience cues fluently e.g. training all dogs to respond promptly to leave it, go to your mat, down, smacking sound, and come so to redirect dogs at a moment's notice from each other as needed so to avoid conflict.

And of course, enlisting the help of a certified veterinary behaviorist/behavior consultant for safety and correct implementation of behavior modification (desensitization and counterconditioning mostly to obtain that lovely +CER https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/conditioned-emotional-response-cer/ Yup, good things happening contingent on the presence of the other dog/animal.

Treating resource guarding among dogs/animals who share the same home can be complex and requires years of practice, skill, careful observation, and the institution of safety measures. In some cases, meds may be needed along with behavior modification to pave the path to cognitive changes that evoke a better state of learning. 

 

[JMFS]

That all makes perfect sense!  Thankfully Gertrude is far more mellow than Momo so this should be more manageable than his case was.  He's doing pretty well, btw.  He and I haven't had an incident in ages and when he and Gertie got into it he ended up tucking tail and trying to run.  Poor guy was slipping on the LVP flooring and didn't get very far in reverse.  Gertie stopped pressing the advantage once I told her whatever I told her (it was so shocking I can't even remember!).  I always suspected his aggression was fear-based and with as quickly as he attempted to retreat from, rather than escalate to, a true confrontation I'm thinking that's a good diagnosis.

I am quite good at anthropomorphism.  Probably because these guys are so good at imitating behavior!  I watched a video of a dog who was limping all of a sudden, no known injuries.  Turns out he was copying his human who was on crutches!  When his human wasn't around the dog would zip around the yard, no problem, but when that particular human came around on the crutches the dog would begin limping.  Paw raised an everything.    Here's the video, hopefully it works:  Billy the Lurcher Limping

Counter-conditioning / desensitization with Monkey is moving right along.  Gertie is so smart she's picking up on it quickly.  Monkey = promise of good things to come.  She got a wee testy the first couple times and pushed towards him as though he was going to steal the treat.  It only took a hand on her chest and a showing of the treat in my other hand to get her butt planted on the ground.  By the end of session 2 she would watch me give Monkey a treat and then stare at me as though to say (anthropomorphism incoming), "and just where is mine?"  We'll keep working on that because poor Monkey doesn't deserve to be nipped at.  He just wants lovin'.

Training husband is tougher.  He's not as quick to intervene as I am and he's let Gertie into Abbi's area a few times.  Thankfully the food dishes were empty each time, but it only takes one altercation to set us back.  He's kind of oblivious to Gertie's presence when he gets home and that's going to be the opportune time for a fight.  For now I'm watching like a hawk so I can recall Gertie before she reaches Abbi's space, but dang dogs are quick when they're excited!