No Rush: Snake Avoidance Training

[JMFS]

We have some time to work on this one so I'm in no hurry for an answer.  :)  We bought land in Texas, hooray!  I'll get to go home eventually - don't think we'll build for a couple years, though.  The folks who live there are on a FB group and there are pictures of the properties.  About 20% of those are dead rattlesnakes . . ..  Coyotes, bobcats, a fox, raccoons, a ringtail something, hogs, and lots of deer.  With these two prey-driven knuckleheads of mine I'm going to have my work cut out for me!  We'll fence in about an acre, but that leaves 4'ish we'll keep "wild." 

The HOA head person-type's wife (I've never had an HOA, lol - president?) said she put her dogs through snake avoidance training so now instead of going near snakes they actually alert her to their presence.  Have you ever heard of such a thing?  I don't know if Momo is capable of that restraint, but Gertie has promise.  I'm going to ask their Veterinarian about the rattlesnake vaccination as well. 

Here's the kind of thing we're dealing with.  There is, indeed, a copperhead rattlesnake in this picture (so anyone who's scared of snakes, don't look too hard!).  Husband and I agree we'd both be dead because neither of us were able to find it without the zoomed in image.  Even knowing where it is my eye sometimes goes to the leaves beneath it, thinking that area is the snake.  I asked about how common they were (sometimes sensational things get posted more often than the more mundane) and I have been assured that the snake picture to commonality is accurate.  When I grew up there we didn't see or hear any in the woods, but moccasins in the lake were a usual sighting.  We were constantly having to get out of the water because a dang moccasin was having a swim near us. 

So, this is nothing new to me, but I didn't have dogs back then so that aspect is new and I want to be as prepared as possible (I'll be foregoing shorts and wearing jeans and boots as well as using a walking stick).  We were always told to make lots of noise when walking, stomp our feet and walk deliberately kind of noise, and I'll be doing that for sure.  I'm not scared of snakes or spiders and they eat roaches so they're a-okay in my book, buuuut, when it comes to the venomous varieties all bets are off and I'll be carrying my .380 when I'm on the property (unless I get a .22 before then)!

[Adrienne]

Congrats on your new property in Texas, how exciting! I have heard about many snake avoidance programs, but most that I know of use shock collars. We are talking shock collars here used at high levels to the point of the dogs startling and even yelping and jumping in the air (of course, the shock must be painful enough to train the dog to avoid the snake and leave a long-lasting strong impression). These sessions feature live muzzled and/or defanged snakes (with their fangs are clipped off) so to ensure the maximum safety while the dog is exposed to the real thing. Once the training is done, dogs must then attend refresher courses  every now and then to maintain the negative associations. 

Of course, with the use of shock, although potentially effective, we need to consider the potential negative consequences and fallout effects. Like some dogs may come to associate the shock with other things such as the leash, a specific place or a specific person or they may even come to develop fear of innocuous things like a garden hose or sizzling noises. 

Now, there are some trainers that teach snake avoidance without the use of shock collars (I have occasionally referred some of my clients to a local trainer in Tucson who does). This trainer basically trains the dogs to "leave it" using fake remote-controlled snakes with the goal of then raising criteria to the point that the dogs eventually come to learn to signal to the owner the presence of the snake, but (and this is a big BUT) while there are claims that this training can still work with the dog when left alone in the yard, I wouldn't trust this training (or any type of training really) 100 percent enough to relax and feel safe. There is always that chance....Of course, the training is still worthy for at least some extra level of peace of mind on walks. 

One of my neighbor after a few negative encounters has finally decided to invest some money on erecting a rattlesnake proof fence and he has been happy with that. He had it installed by a company that specialized exclusively in that type of fencing. He told me he can now relax knowing that his dogs are safe in the yard as no snake can get past that. And of course, he relaxes too knowing that he can walk around and garden without stepping over some slimy critter!

I have been struggling finding the snake in the picture you have posted. I see something that looks like one but just sort of a like a head buried under the leaves towards the bottom near the center. I'm the last person to ask about finding one though. That's not surprising because a year or so back when I was in the yard, I sat down on a log and talked on the phone one hour with my mom only to notice later there was a rattlesnake relaxing just a few inches in front of me! He must have heard the whole conversation! Then comes Einstein to greet me, and he doesn't see it either! Luckily Einstein was called away by my hubby just in time and I had to walk past a very tight space to get out if its way. Phewww....Luckily that's the only close encounter with one, we have seen far more scorpions than snakes. 

[JMFS]

I don't know what happened to my response.  The snake is just about center.  Its head is to the left of the green leaf in the middle - kind of blurry but I Think its mouth is open and likely the only thing that alerted the picture taker to its presence.  The body runs down the picture to the left of the stick below the green leaf and it's curved into a little more than an 's' shape.  The majority of its body is the same color as the leaves.   In fact, there are 3 leaves to the right of its body that I keep thinking are part of the snake, even after looking at the image a multitude of times.  Yikes!  Gertie has a fair leave, Momo's is weaker so we'll work on that.  His prey drive is just so stinking strong I kind of think all the training in the world isn't going to override that drive.  Like asking a Beagle not to sniff things.  Given her current status I don't think Abbi will be going to Texas, she'll forever be a Florida pup.

I'll skip that avoidance training - no one shocks my Gerts and I think we can say with certainty that Mo would respond very negatively to something like that.  Poor boy has enough issues, we'll leave him be.

We're doing a traditional Texas cedar post fence - cedar trunks with wire (not barbed, though - we don't want to harm the beneficial wildlife and there Are good snakes).

Since we won't be building for a couple years (that's the plan now, anyway - if we get lucky it could change) there is time to figure things out.  I will be building paths down to the creek with the available rocks (I'll just have to be careful as I pick them up!), something my brother and I used to do as kiddos to help me find my way back to the house (he doesn't get lost - I always get lost, lol).  If we stick to using those paths we'll have a better chance of spotting anything out of the ordinary since it will be tamped down and clearer than the rest of the area.  Getting the dogs to follow the path . . . different story!

Can't believe that snake had the audacity to eavesdrop.  It must have been out cold to not move with you there - that's quite extraordinary!  Makes me wonder how many I've been close to now.  I've always operated under the knowledge they have sour dispositions and will let you know right away of their presence.  Double yikes!

I found the zoomed-in image:

[Adrienne]

Oh, wow, I really missed that. Wonderful camouflaging! Scary though because if one were to encounter such snake on walks, no "leave it" would work as how can you warn the dog in time? For what matters, one may even step on it and get bitten if the snake for some reason doesn't slither away, eeek! That's likely a circumstance where tapping the ground with a stick can turn helpful.

My vet used to advertise the snake vaccine (I think it was made by Red Rock) but it's not meant as a treatment as one would hope. She explained that it's just meant to allow owners to buy some time to get to the vet's office for treatment. Always best to have several vet numbers stored in the phone in case of an emergency and to call first before heading anywhere to ensure that they have anti-venom in stock.

Training to avoid snakes without practicing with real snakes is one of the biggest disadvantages even when working on solid leave its. One would need at least some components reminding of a snake including the snake's appearance, sound and smell. The advantage of the classes my colleague used to train is that by partnering with a herpetologist,  she had access to cool things such as freshly shed snake skins, freeze dried dead snakes and she also had access to remote controlled slithering snakes to mimic the motion.  

 

[JMFS]

Oh my gosh, I watched a video of avoidance training with dogs and the dogs were focused on the trainer the Entire time.  I mean, sure I was jealous of the eye contact and focus, lol, but the dogs didn't acknowledge the "snakes" a single time - they merely followed the trainer.  Then I watched one with a collar that emitted a buzzing sound.  I'm Guessing it was a shock, but the dog didn't seem fazed by it by means of physical discomfort so I'm not sure.  They did end up giving the snake skin and live snakes a kind of wide birth, but I see an issue with that, too.  A snake can strike up to 1/3 of its length.  I don't think a dog is going to calculate that distance.  So, yes, best to train a strong leave it.

That's what my brother said about the vaccination - it simply buys time and we'll need that if we get into a situation because the closest Vet is 30 minutes away.  It saved Gordo - he was sniffing in the bushes and a snake was there, struck Gordo in the lip and gum line.  It actually took them overnight to figure out it was a snake bite!  I wasn't there so I can't roll my eyes and the story my brother told had reasonable cause to wait.  Gordo's been through the wringer!  He's definitely living his best life and getting bang for his buck, and what an absolutely Sweet dog he is.  I didn't expect him to be so loving what with being this superiorly bred and trained hunting dog, but when we were there for Thanksgiving I discovered he's a big cuddle bug.  He absolutely loves the hunt and doesn't pay one lick of attention to his physical shape - he's one of those dogs who'd run himself into the grave.

I digress - I fell in love with that Gordo and could go on and on.  I also read that 4x the Benadryl a dog would normally need should be kept on hand as well as your phone and something else (I'll get it figured out before we take the pups, good questions for our appointment).  I believe what I'll do is place "snake kits" at the places we're going to hang out on our property so I'll know where they're at and I'll just carry Benadryl on me since it's small enough.  I have a .380 right now, but I'm going to get a .22 for that house - they're easier to shoot.  Another snake was posted today - they used a 12 gauge!  I prefer to live and let live, but venomous things don't get that courtesy.  They wouldn't think twice about protecting themselves, neither will I!  The neighbor on the lot next to us is planning to build this year so that's a little comfort, knowing there may be someone else around to help because our street is pretty bare.  I'll also be investing in boots and will forgo shorts in favor of jeans.  Hm, probably good thick work gloves when moving the rocks, too.  Wonder if there's a rattlesnake vaccination for humans . . ..

[Adrienne]

What you may have watched was the final products of the training. In the case of dogs focused too much on the trainer, the dogs have likely initially tried to interact with the snakes (but that part wasn't filmed), but with time, trial after trial, the phenomenon of overlearning could have have taken over, so that dogs just knew what to do in that specific setting/context. This may look impressive, but of course, it would be nice to see all the steps involved before reaching that level. 

With the shock collar, the dogs were likely initially given shocks at high level settings (but that part wasn't filmed), but then with time, just a very mild shock or even vibration/tone works as a reminder to alert them to leave the snake alone. Many shock collar trainers astutely don't show the videos where they use higher levels of shock because they want viewers to believe that their shocks are just minor "static stimulations" or "tickles" and therefore effective enough in keeping dogs under control. 

If I recall well, I think the force-free trainer I knew who held snake avoidance classes in Arizona used to calculate the striking distance by placing some sort of barriers like hula hoops or something round/oval in shape around the snakes and teaching dogs to not get within that barrier. Once the dog learned that, the barrier was gradually made less and less visible, until it could be removed and the dog still kept distance. 

Glad to hear that Gordo survived that scary bite, he does sound like a very sweet dog! I have met some very sweet souled hunting dogs, they look tough and rugged on the outside but soft on the inside.