Problems with training

[rebeccamonchon]

Im recently having problems with the training, she seems very uninterested, before she used to love it!

When we go for walks she is very active and wants to learn then i will feed her snacks every time she does something good - normally im trying to make her sit when joggers and other people walks by and walk on a loose leash and train heal, and also throwing ball and train recall with another similar ball so that she comes and also gives away the other ball.

But immediately when we are inside she doesn't want to train anything, i tried training on different schedules and with different snacks but she seems to be bored easily and not able to understand what i want.

 

Im for example trying to teach her to pick up toy - then i click when she smells on the toy and if she grabbs it, and try to make her grab it longer, but then she looses interest and only tries to pick up the snacks i have behind my back, and there is nothing else she wants to do.

 

Not sure what i do wrong and how i should train her every day. I also struggle a bit with taking away the snacks and just using the word to make her do something. :confused:

Edited August 27, 2018 by rebeccamonchon

[Adrienne Farricelli]

Great to hear you are training a nice solid sit when joggers and other people walk by. By doing so, you are training good impulse control and at the same time forming good positive associations with people (every time I see the jogger, I sit and get a tasty treat, I love joggers!). I love your other training plans as well (rewarding good loose-leash walking and recall work).

 

It's quite interesting that she isn't eager to be trained indoors as I often stumble on the opposite problem: dogs who are too over treshold outdoors and are more challenging to train and won't even take treats. Things that may come to mind is that perhaps the things you are asking at home are more challenging? Will she sit and do a recall at home at all? or is it just training to pick up toys that you are struggling with?

 

You also mentioned that "I also struggle a bit with taking away the snacks" can you please clarify this for me? Are you trying to train your dog to "leave it' when you drop snacks on the floor? What happens when you are taking away snacks? Also, please clarify "just using the word to make her do something" what word are you trying to use? Thanks for the clarifications!

Adrienne

[rebeccamonchon]

She used to be easier to train inside before, but maybe it is like you said that i ask more challenging stuff at home and maybe i expect to much from here at home without thinking about it and then i train in a non motivational way after when i do "easy" stuff so that she doesn't want to train anymore. Before she used to come very quickly and was eager to learn inside, but now i can barely make her do heal at home or sit which outside she does it really quickly! So when i mean outside its in a comfortable road where we have walked many times, but if i go to new areas she is more interested in everything else (which i know is normal)!

But im thinking i require to much from her because im so used that she learns everything so fast but ofcourse i have to take in count that some things are harder to learn. Example with picking up toy and holding it and then giving it, should i work on picking up toy for maybe many days before she actually will know this?

 

She will sit and do recall at home but she does it mostly very slow and comes when she feels like it!

 

With to take away the snacks and word is i mean that she won't listen if i for example say sit without snacks (but the thing is she will listen sometimes when she feels like it). She knows the meaning of sit but at the same time she only does it if she feels motivated enough and she does it slowly :p For example before eating i say sit and wait and she knows the meaning of it and does it instantly without thinking until i tell her she can eat, but if i just do it out of no where she all of a sudden doesn't care or dont want to do it.

 

I have read your article with fading away the treats and tried to do it it just depends on her mood if she want to listen then or not i guess. Also i was wondering if its possible that i have messed up a word like sit, if i misused it (used it to many times without her listening or something like this).

 

 

BTW i want to tell you that the page is really nice and that its so nice with all the tips for training and brain games! :) So happy that i became a member of this site!

Edited August 27, 2018 by rebeccamonchon

[Adrienne Farricelli]

Thanks for the clarifications. I will try to address the issues you are facing one by one in separated posts. Let's start first with the difficulties in training indoors and the problems associated with repeating commands. You would have to carefully evaluate what changes have taken place between the time she was interested in training and now. Here are some suggestions on what to evaluate:

 

-Use of less high-value treats at home versus outside. While I may suggest sometimes kibble to train indoors, it's for dogs who love their kibble and you can see they love it from their level of motivation to continue the training. If you are using treats that she doesn't seem too enthusiastic about, try a different type.

-Make training a super fun and rewarding activity. Like, when training recalls (coming when called) make it a super fun activity that is highly-rewarded. Call your dog for meal times, perhaps have a helper hold your dog on leash as your dog hears you or sees you prepared food, then once done, call your dog (helper releases leash) and ask your dog to sit and put the food bowl down. If your dog loves going on walks, ask for a sit before putting the leash on and going out the door. If your dog loves to play with toys, ask for a sit before you toss the ball or toy. Make training super fun. Hide a stuffed Kong behind your back, ask for a sit or down, then once yor dog sits or lies down, reward by giving it. Make it a daily habit. Play a fun game where you ask for a sit and then toss the treat instead of hand feeding it. Use a happy voice when your dog performs the behavior, pet your dog, and toss treats in the air (or just get a treat and break it into several pieces and toss).

-Consider the level of motivation outside versus inside (perhaps outside there is more motivation to help the dog suceeed due to social pressure). For example, we may use a more enticing tone of voice outdoors to make ourselves more interesting to get ourselves out of sticky situations. For example, I may do my best when training outdoors to keep a dog I am training from wanting to jump on people by using high-value treats to reward a few steps of heeling, movement and an interesting tone of voice to keep the dog to stick by my side.

-As mentioned, asking more challenging behaviors indoors can have a negative impact. When the training becomes too difficult or confusing, dogs then have a negative experience with training and this can put a dent in progress and training altogether. To solve something like this, we need to take baby steps, be extra clear on what we are trying to train and use a high rate of reinforcement to keep the dog motivated. Ending a training session on a positive note is very important as it's beleived to be the last thing that sticks to the dog's mind and is carried to the next session.

-When training indoors, we may get more easily frustrated. It's important to spit training is smaller steps and stop a training sessions before we get to this point as training once again may assume negative connotations in sensitive dogs. Again, always end a training session asking something the dog knows how to do well and reward so to leave a last positive impact. Resume later.

 

Now to the subject of repeating cues over and over. Repeating a cue over and over may lead to a phenomenon known as learned irrelevance. The dog may be slow to respond or doesn't respond at all. So in the case of saying "sit, sit, sit ' over and over, one has simply trained the dog, after a series of repetitions, that the actual command is now ''sit, sit, sit'' and no longer just "sit." The dog may therefore listen only after hearing sit sit sit three times, just like a child may learn not to attend to mom the first time she tells him to do his homework because he's waiting for her to say it again and again until she rushes into his room to shut off the TV.

 

Repeating a cue over and over may also sometimes lead to the cliche' of increasing the tone to a more authoritarian one. We may therefore start with a calm "sit" and then, as frustration builds in, we may use a much louder or much harsher tone of "I mean business." This tendency to escalate will only lead to further problems. Dogs will wonder why their owners are getting madder and madder each time, and owners may wonder why their dogs are getting more and more stubborn. Let's take a closer look into the dynamics taking place.

 

When some sensitive dogs perceive the build-up of frustration in their owners, they will often shut down and just freeze or they may engage in calming signals which are often misinterpreted as the dog simply being stubborn.

 

Calming signals in dogs are behaviors dogs engage in as an attempt to calm their owners' down. The dog may therefore perhaps yawn, turn around, sniff the ground, move in slow motion, walk away or lick his lips. Dog owners at this point often get even more frustrated and give up training as they feel their dog is just plain stubborn. In some cases, dogs may end up actually slowly sitting upon hearing the owner says ''sit-sit!" in an angered tone of voice. In this case, the dog is likely simply sitting as a calming signal and most likely it's accompanied by other signs of appeasement such as looking away and licking his lips.

 

But you may be wondering at this point, how can you train your dog again to realize that sit is a one-word cue and no longer two or three? It is quite easy. Grab some high-value treats, let your dog sample one (reinforcer sampling) so he knows what's in for him and then fill your pocket with a few and ask your dog to sit. You'll need to be waiting a little bit as you bite your tongue making sure you only say it once! Praise and reward if your dog happens to sit. Although this sit may be initially slow, you can always remedy this later by rewarding only the fasted sits.

 

If your dog though doesn't respond and looks at you confused, you may have to take a few steps back in training and teach your dog again exactly the behaviour you want (by using prompts such as your hand signals) and then attaching its name once your dog gets the idea. This is OK to do because it's just temporary and you can then fade the prompts if you want to just stick to a verbal cue. Praise lavishly and reward when you accomplish your mission. Positive reinforcement as always is the best approach.

 

Please note: If your command has been repeated too many times and has assumed negative connotations, you may be dealing with what's known as a "poisoned cue" (a cue that your dog has associated with something negative confusion or frustration) and therefore you may be better off starting using a fresh cue from the get-go (in other words, re-name it).

 

These are just a few pointers as to some dynamics that may sometimes inadvertently take place when training and that may have an impact on the results. Of course, there may be several other things going on (like a dog feeling tired when home or perhaps stressed by indoor/outdoor noises etc) I will shortly post other troubleshooting tips for the other issues you are facing in my next post.

Edited August 29, 2018 by Adrienne Farricelli

[Adrienne Farricelli]

OK, now to picking up toys and holding them and then giving them. This is not an easy task. It sounds easy and looks easy, but it is not, especially if the dog in question is not a breed known for retrieving items, (and even among these breeds there are often challenges). We usually train picking up things, holding them and giving them to the owner with service dogs as we need them sometimes to grab things dog owners drop on the floor and it's one of the things that pose challenges at times. It's a form of advanced training for many dogs and for a good reason, the task of picking up toys and putting them in a basket (which is similar to bringing to the owner and dropping in the hands) is listed in the brain games section of this course at the Einstein level (which is the last, most advanced one).

 

This may therefore be too difficult for your dog to train at this time and pushing it too much, may make her confused and reluctant to further training because she has asociated it with being too difficult. If you are following the obedience course, I would stick for now to just training a simple "take" without the bringing it to you portion at least for a little bit until she becomes a faster and more enthuasiastic learner. Steps for training "Take" are outlined here: https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/brain-training/obedience-101/take-leave-it/

 

You can also find some troubleshooting tips for "take'' in this thread:

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/forum/showthread.php?40-Take-Leave&highlight=pick

 

I will be back shortly to offer some tips on how to get a dog to rely less on the visual aspect of treats.

Edited August 29, 2018 by Adrienne Farricelli

[Adrienne Farricelli]

While luring is a quick way to get results, its major drawback is that it can turn into "bribery" if the lure is not faded promptly.You know you are bribing when:

 

-you continue using food as a lure even once your dog has learned the behavior

-your dog does not obey until you reach into your pockets

-your dog thinks the action of getting food is the actual cue for the behavior

-you find yourself reaching for food when your dog is not responding as wished

-you are consistently showing food before asking your dog to do something

-your dog believes his behavior is contingent upon seeing the treat

 

You know you are NOT bribing when:

 

-You stop using food as a lure once your dog has learned the behavior

-your dog obeys with food out of sight

-your dog reliably starts responding to visual signals or verbal cues

-you do not need to reach for food to have your dog obey

-you are giving food after the dog has actually performed the wanted behavior

-your dog believes his reward is contingent upon performing the behavior

 

Now, sometimes, dogs may have a bit of problems when fading food lures. Some dogs may heavily rely on the visual aspect of the treats, that if they do not see them, they do not perform the behavior. These dogs are often perceived as stubborn as it looks like they are not performing the behavior because there's no food so it looks like they are going on strike, but it's likely just a matter of the dog not following the empty hand because there's no longer anything to follow. It's sort of like us when we are used to driving on the highway following signs to our favorite restaurant, but one day the signs are missing and we are a bit lost.

 

So here are a few steps to help fading the food lure. All it takes often is breaking the process into smaller steps. So we try making the food lure gradually smaller and smaller, protruding less and less from out of our fingers until it's barely there and then completely gone.

 

If the dog still has difficulty, we can pass some treats on our hands rubbing them so our hands still carry the heavy scent of the food (this works well with hounds) and proceed as if we still have food in our hands.

 

Another option is to do several reps quickly in a row with the food showing and then in the midst of these, as the dog gains momentum, do one without the treat being visible. Then, the percentage of treat-less reps should be increased gradually.

 

Finally, it's a good idea at some point to aim on doing several reps every now and then with no treats on you or inside your treat bag. Ask your dog a behavior and then say "yes!" enthusiastically and both of you rush to go get a cookie from a cookie jar or you grab your dog's already filled up dish bowl you have prepared earlier and placed in a cabinet ready to serve. The "yes" in this case works as a "bridge" connecting the performed behavior with a reinforcer albeit the reinforcement occurs a few seconds later and at a distance.

 

Once your dog performs the behavior fluently at least 80 percent of the time even around distractions (this may take 1-2 months, but there are many variables) then it may be time to move to a variable schedule. It's important to not move from continuous to variable too quickly as that's often when the behavior starts breaking down.

 

Now, a variable schedule means that your dog's behavior still gets some form of reinforcement every time he performs the behavior correctly, only thing is that it won't always be food. This is when you can use secondary reinforcers (things your dog has learned to like because of a history of pairing with primary reinforcers) such as praise words. For example, if you tell your dog “Good Boy!” and follow up with a treat several times, eventually it can be used to reinforce behaviors, even that day you forgot your treats at home. However, something important to consider it that you need to imaintain this association for part of the time if you want it to stay strong enough to keep reinforcing behavior.

 

Hope this helps, happy training!

Edited August 30, 2018 by Adrienne Farricelli