Aggression at other dogs

[ManidaMorrell]

Hi,

 

I did read the post on aggression around toys and possible resource guarding but wondered if my dogs aggression needed to be dealt with differently.

 

6.5mth border collie aggressive towards other dogs (lunges and barks). No idea why.

 

My dog obedience trainer suggested it was because he wasn't walking on a loose lead which caused tension and therefore aggression and that he would be a different dog off lead. I went on a group walk with other dogs from my basic obedience class and their owners and let him off lead. He was fine yet extremely submissive when any dog approached him to the point of wetting himself.

 

Since then I have taken him to a dog park to let him off lead, I had kept him distracted by throwing a rope toy and trying to keep away from other dogs with no incident. Three weeks ago I took him to the same park to meet a friends dog for the first time. We entered the park from opposite sides, things were fine then it was like he just snapped, he attacked the dog and started running at another. We ended up walking the two dogs together on lead for 20 minutes and by the end of it there were no more incidents. He is now after another couple of visits at home able to be around this dog.

 

Usually if big dogs approach him he will submit tail between legs wee himself and grovel although yesterday at the park he ran at a larger dog threatening and barking. With little dogs he will try to attack them straight away. he ran at and attacked a cavalier yesterday at the park, unharmed but both the owner and I were in shock.

 

It just seems so out of the ordinary for a 6.5 mth old. It doesn't seem normal to me. I bought him from a breeder and there have been no incidences of him being attacked by another dog.

 

I wont let him off lead at a park anymore, possibly not even walk him on lead at park, this behaviour is unacceptable to me. But it leaves us both a little depressed when we can't have the freedom and fun at the park.

 

I'm really not sure how to deal with the issue. It has been said that he doesn't see me as the pack leader and is pushing his boundaries (aggression seems to extreme for that?). I thought maybe it was in his breeding? I don't know. I first noticed this behaviour when he was about 3mths old, he snapped at another puppy and also barked at another adult dog while on a walk.

 

Is this kind of aggression fixable? It restricts us from doing a lot of social things.

 

Manida

[Adrienne Farricelli]

Hello Manida,

Resource guarding in dogs is a very context-based form of aggression. In other words, the aggression is evoked contingent upon the threat of losing possession of something perceived valuable to the dog. Therefore, you will see the aggressive behavior start when the dog is in possession of something (bone, toy, favorite person, resting area etc) and a person or other animal comes near. The aggressive display (growling, hovering over the possession, direct stare, teeth baring etc) is a distance-increasing behavior and therefore tends to escalate the closer the other animal or person comes near. I don't see in your post any pattern of this behavior taking place.

 

The trainer you have taken your dog to seems to have assumed that your dog may have been exhibiting what's known as barrier "aggression." You can read more about it here:

Barrier frustration in dogs

 

However, in barrier frustration there's a common element: the dog acts "aggressive" when on leash, but then once off leash. he plays well with other dogs without any incidents. It may therefore be that your dog is not a frustrated greeter after all considering the recent incidents. However, we can't say this with certainty, and we would need to know what exactly evokes the behavior.

 

Something to consider is breed. It may be your dog has genuine amicable intentions intitially, but then things get out of hand. Your dog may be therefore simply engaging in what he thinks is his job: correcting and keeping everyone in line as he would do when herding sheep. Some dogs like to also take the "fun police" role and correct any rowdy play. Dog parks may therefore stimulate this response in some dogs. Of course, allowing to rehearse this behavior is not productive and I agree with you that its best to avoid dog parks, at least for now. The good thing is that there are many alternatives to dog parks for exercising dogs and in more comtrolled settings (structured walks, hikes, brain games, doggy sports, nosework etc.) Check with your vet though before enrolling your dog in dog sports or other activities like jogging on hard surfaces to check when to expect those growth plates to close and it's OK to start such activities.

 

To answer your question whether this is fixable, it may likely be, but it would require some behavior modification (under the guidance of a behavior professional for safety and correct implementation/make sure he/she is using positive training and behavior modification methods). However, there are no guarantees it may work well to the extent of being able to totally relax when at a dog park because the dog park is not a controlled setting and many things can go wrong there (even with a dog who has always gotten along with other dogs). It is much easier to work on training good leash manners if your dog has a tendency to lunge and bark, because you can control distance and keep an eye on his threshold levels. This would be a good starting point.

 

Behavior modification for lunging and barking towards other dogs often entails working on recognizing threshold levels, desensitization and counterconditioning (for dogs who do not like other dogs near) or differential reinforcement of incompatible behaviors (mostly for frustrated greeters, or for dogs who previosuly didn't like other dogs near after their emotional response has changed in regards to proximity). Here are some helpful reads on dog behavior modification that may be helpful if you ever decide to pursue enlisting the help of a professional:

 

Threshold levels: https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/threshold-levels/

Desensitization: https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/desensitization/

Counterconditioing:https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/counterconditioning/

Differential reinforcement of incompatible behaviors:https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/differential-reinforcement-incompatible-behaviors/

Attacking other dogs on walks: https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/attacking-dogs-walks/

Edited August 31, 2018 by Adrienne Farricelli

[ManidaMorrell]

Hi Adrienne,

 

Thank you this makes a lot of sense.

 

The trainer I went to uses the alpha/pack leader method with her training (which I'm not sure about) and has told me to...

 

"Ignore Blue for a week or two. Make him work for everything. Be aloof towards him. Don't give him eye contact unless it is to put him back in place. Don't allow any dominant behaviour from him. Don't let him off the lead if you have no control over him (and he knows it!)". "ignore him when you get up, or come home. Only briefly pet him when he is calm and move on again."

 

And when on walks...

 

"By barking and being aggressive towards other dogs, Blue is openly challenging your authority. Develop zero tolerance to it. He needs to walk behind you or at least next to you. Every time he barks or growls to another dog or car, raise your chin and turn your head just enough so you can glare back at him from the corner of your eye. Jerk his leash sharply or bump into him, say "Leave it!". Don't' shout or he'll think you panic. Just firmly. If he ignores you after this, raise your chin even higher, turn around and walk into him ("get back"). If he doesn't step back, barge through him so he gets out of your way submissively . Every time you make him step back submissively out of your way, you earn the right to be obeyed a little bit more. Always remember to keep your chin raised as you barge through him. If he continues to defy your authority by barking at another dog, make the decision he can't even look at another dog. Every time he tries, barge straight through him and make him go back 5 or 6 paces. As soon as you stop, remind him to "leave it". Once he's calmly and quietly ignoring all other dogs no matter what they do, you know you're finally the boss of him out in public."

 

This all seems a bit cold and aggressive as well and I want a companionship not a domineering relationship.

 

In relation to working below his threshold, this I have found to be almost impossible. He barks and acts madly when he hears a recording of a dog bark at the lowest setting and He loses all focus and sense. At the park today he saw a dog at quite a distance from him and once he spotted it he lunged, barked and lost all control or focus. I had to keep walking into him for some meters until the other dog was out of sight. (When any dog is visible no matter how far his focus flips to it). Also for the first time ever he barked at a boy running across the park.

 

I know he's only 8months and still a teenager of sorts but it worries me that I won't be able to change this behaviour. He is a very smart and happy dog otherwise.

 

Any more suggestions on how to work with him would be much appreciated.

Manida

[Adrienne Farricelli]

Oh my, so sorry to hear your trainer uses such training philosophy. It really clashes against many things offered in this course (see the article on dominance debunked in the course archive section). I am glad that you stopped by and are questioning these methods as they sure sound adversarial. I hope no major damage was done during this time.

 

About the threshold issue at the recordings, did you pair desensitization with counterconditioning (play the barking recording at a very low volume and for a very brief time and pairing with a high-value treat, rinse and repeat several times)? We are aiming to obtain a conditioned emotional response here. Treats happen only when the recording is being played, and then stop abruptly once the recording is stopped. Counterconditioning may be the missing puzzle piece here for this exercise and can provide you with a starting point to progress then to exercises such as "Look at that" using a smacking sound followed by a treat upon seeing dogs and people walk by behind a window, preferably with the help of a professional who can create setups.

 

You can change behavior, although there are never guarantees. The fact he is still young is a plus. You only need to find the right professional to help you out for an in-person assessment and implementation of behavior modification for safety and correct implementation. If you can provide me with your zipcode or the closest big city near you, I can help you find some possible trainers/behavior consultants that can help you out.

Edited September 25, 2018 by Adrienne Farricelli

[ManidaMorrell]

I played the recording at its lowest and provided him with treats he loves. He almost immediately loses focus and disregards the treat. The second time I tried he snatched it and my finger but response was the same, way over threshold.

 

I'm actually in Western Australia, Bunbury being the closest city 6230. I've been trying to find a behaviouralist who has this positive approach around the area but no luck finding one as yet.

[JMFS]

I'm sure the alpha method of training is the source of my issues with Momo. That's why I'm trying Adrienne's approach with Gertie. I've had Mo for 8 years and tonight he put teeth on my wrist. That's the closest he's come to a bite. I was standing between him and his food as I do every feeding before I move aside and tell him, "okay." We first took a walk and I gave him little piles of food as we went along. The walk is to calm him down because he gets so worked up he practically vibrates from shaking so fast. You can actually hear his body shivering. A few laps around the pool calms him (brings him under that threshold). Everything was going great so I don't know what the heck set him off this time. I normally scratch his head before moving aside and telling him "okay," and tonight he simply did Not like that.

 

I used to do the stand taller than him, invade his space and back him up with my body, blah blah baloney. Now I'm having to go back to the basics and because I was errant in my initial training we have struggles. My response isn't to hijack your thread, it's to let you know you're not alone and that your frustrations and uncertainty are understood. I can run a business, but I often feel totally lost when it comes to his outbursts - it's mind boggling sometimes. I also wanted to share my experience with the alpha style of training since you're not feeling warm and fuzzy about it. I'm not just a naysayer for the method, I'm someone who's dealing with the fallout from it.

 

I also have to say Gertie is a Completely different personality than Momo. She's easy going where he's high strung and bullheaded so Gertie is far easier to train. I think had I known most of what I do now I would have trained Mo differently, and based on the Scientific approach vs the alpha way. I think there's some credence to alpha training, but I also think people take it too far. Should a dog beg at the table? Not in my opinion. They should be sitting away from the table, waiting for their turn. That's part of the alpha mentality I'm okay with. Intimidating or shutting the dog out is the part of it that I can say, firsthand, is problematic.

 

So from someone who tried aspects of the alpha style, I encourage you to keep looking for someone who goes with a different philosophy. I post quite a bit around here with tidbits I've picked up, but I'm certainly no expert and I like to try to help by sharing my failures, too. If I can help by sharing my mistakes then share I shall! :)

[ManidaMorrell]

Hi Jennifer,

I really think that the alpha training I was taught to do has made his problems way worse, I'm pretty devastated with his reactions to dogs now, it makes me really sad for him as I just want him to have a good happy life. It also makes it so much harder for me and is quite frustrating as I just want to be able to walk out in public with him and Maybe stop at a cafe that allows dogs out front. I'd rather take him out with me than leave him at home all the time. I think it's going to be a tough rehab but he's a smart dog so hopefully this will help (border collie)

[ManidaMorrell]

Just had a very quick session with Blue, I think he did well. Had the sound on lowest again but I had mum hold it a couple meters away. I sat on a chair with cooked sausage pieces and as soon as he realised (pricked his ears) I started feeding him in quick succession. He let off a single bark maybe 4 times (better than my first attempt when he just flipped but I don't think I was ready for his reaction the first time) and was quite quick and a bit grabby with taking the treats. He stayed sitting/standing in front of me 90% of the time always very alert. I was thinking of doing this twice a day, is that too much?

[Adrienne Farricelli]

Not all all, these exercises are beneficial in the long term and you should then start seeing a conditioned emotional response. In other words, from dreading the sound produced, to a look-forwarded-to -event: "I just heard the sound, where's my treat!" Kudos to you for finding that sweet spot with distance for making him less reactive. It's quite normal for some barks to slip through in the initial stages of behavior modification using recordings as this behavior has likely been rehearsed for some time.

 

If he's grabby, it's likely because he is still a bit over threshold and can't focus on gauging the pressure of his jaws. You can toss the food on the floor rather than hand feed. Remember that the barking sound is the predictor of food, so feed only the treats while it's playing. After the sound is off, no more treats. They are put away and everything gets boring.

 

As you witness an emotional response, you can then raise criteria and move on to playing the recording louder, closer and for longer and even during pleasant events such as during meal times or during play if he's very play oriented. You can start playing the recording briefly as you release him to eat a bit of food from his bowl. Then, if he does well, you can feed more and play it for longer. Once the bowl is empty, no more playing of the recording. This is how gun shy potential gun dogs are trained to not be worried about gun shots, by the way. The gun shots become a cue that meal time is coming!

 

Then, you can try to progress further and start adding the visual aspect of watching dogs through a window and feed treats as outlined in the main course section at the "look at that game."

 

If on walks, you cannot find a a way to work your dog under threshold, either because your dog's reactivity levels are too high or because the environment you are working at allows little to no distance from the trigger, there may be some options, but I would have a professional walk you through to evaluate your specific circumstance and to avoid setbacks.

 

These are some options:

 

-Exercise the dog for an hour prior to the desensitization session. When tired, some dogs are less likely to be reactive.

-Find a calming aid to take the "edge off" so your dog will be less aroused. In some cases, DAP collars, L-theanine supplements, Thundershirt, or Anxiety Wrap may be helpful.

-For severe cases, ask your veterinarian for advice. Your dog may need prescription anxiety drugs and a behavior modification program with the help of a behavior professional.

-Find the highest value treats and try to use counter-conditioning. While it's ideal that counterconditioning is combined with desensitization, using counterconditioning alone with the aid of some calming aids may be productive.

 

 

I couldn't find many professionals in the Bunbury area, but there are a few in the outskirts area. This website offers lists of trainers and consultants invested in using positive behavior modification methods in Australia.

https://www.ppgaustralia.net.au/SpatialDirectory

Edited September 26, 2018 by Adrienne Farricelli

[ManidaMorrell]

Thanks so much Adrienne,

I know it's going to take time but I'm much more confident things are going to change for Blue and in a much more positive way.

I never knew this guild website existed, thankyou, this is way better than what I have found on google haha. And if I have to travel for Blue then I will.

[Adrienne Farricelli]

You are very welcome! Feel free to post anytime you need support or have any questions.

[tinacaputo]

Hi. We just adopted a 5-year-old mini dachshund (15 lbs.) who is very sweet and loving, but goes crazy barking and pulling whenever we see another dog out on a walk. He likes treats, but not enough to stop barking when he sees another dog. He just ignores the treat. When he's off leash he still barks at new dogs, but stops after a minute or two and then gets along fine. (We're wary of letting him off leash at a dog park, since we don't know him very well yet, and are afraid he'll either attack or run away.) We have another dog (also a dachshund) who sometimes barks at people we pass on walks, and they tend to get each other going, so taking them for walks is very frustrating. Thanks, Tina

[JMFS]

Hi Tina,

 

We have a mini Dachshund as well, and our standard Dachshund passed a few years ago. From those two I can tell you it's definitely a Dachshund thing to bark. I came on board after Abbi was 5 and Brownie was 10 and it took a while, but we minimized the barking. There's hope! :) With Brownie, our senior, the good ol' water bottle did the trick. I'm trying new kinder methods now, but that's how he ended up getting quieter. I would squirt with the spray bottle after telling him to be quiet and only if he kept barking. Abbi, the middle age pup, wasn't bothered by the water bottle at all. It got to where I could present the water bottle and Brownie would stop in his tracks. He Hated the thing. I went that route because it worked well with my cats, which I'd had previous to dogs, and it's not harmful, though it is annoying.

 

As far as the pickiness, I think that's also a mini Dachshund thing, yay! Abbi is so flippin' finicky we have to bribe her into eating her food (a teaspoon of beef broth or chamomile tea mixed in does the trick). You might have to bump up in "value" for the treats. Beef jerky is a hit here, as is chicken, turkey, and steak. Last night I used chicken nuggets from Chik Fil A. I saw someone using hot dogs, but I thought that might be too close to cannibalism with wiener dogs, . :D For serious, though, for picky dogs you're going to have to bump up in value, find something they go gaga for.

 

I'd work on the barking and getting comfortable with him before trying the dog park. Too much too soon can make training tougher. For instance, right now I'm not trusting Momo (we've had some serious and puzzling issues come up this past week with his behavior) so I'm keeping him away from potential aggravations until I can get it sorted with a behaviorist. I would take your puppy for walks around the outside of the dog park to work on desensitizing him, but wait to go in until you're comfortable with letting him off the leash. He's going to be feeling you out as part of his assessment of the situation and if you're all wound up he will be, too. Really, there's no rush for the park. There are plenty of other ways to socialize. Friends with dogs, small groups, walks around the neighborhood, etc . . ..

 

One thing I did with Momo on walks was turn around and walk the opposite direction when he got all riled up. I'd switch direction several times so he had to concentrate on me instead of the environment. He doesn't bark, but he gets ten kinds of excited when other dogs start barking, and for 34 pounds he's got a lot of strength when he pulls to get to the other dogs. I either kept walking forward so he had to follow or I'd change direction or sometimes I'd stop and play the "Focus" game with him while the other dogs were going crazy. Their owners could take care of them (and should have) while I did my part to ensure my guy had good manners.

[Adrienne Farricelli]

Hello Tina Caputo and welcome to the forum.

 

It sounds like your dog is over threshold. If your dog is over threshold, this means he is overly stressed and potentially in a fight or flight state. Being in a fight or flight state reduces a dog's cognitive functions and therefore the ability to process information and the dog is overly stressed with little space for relaxation. A dog's digestive system is also close to shutting down when it this state (which is why he can care less if you dangle a piece of baloney in his face). Here's a helpful read that can you help you understand what is likely happening: dog threshold levels.

 

Now, what happens next, once you have your dog under threshold, depends on whether your dog's behavior directed towards other dogs is based on his willingness to increase distance or decrease distance. If your dog plays well with other dogs and has a strong history of getting along well, but gets frustrated only when on leash or other barrier, you may be dealing with a case of barrier frustration. Here's a read explaining it: barrier frustration in dogs. In such a case, you would present situations under the threshold and focus on training a replacement behavior that is highly rewarding, far more rewarding than wanting to interact with the other dog.

 

If on the other hand, your dog doesn't have a history of doing well with other dogs and his barking and lunging is his way of asking for distance, you would instead work on the issue keeping your dog under threshold and using systematic desensitization along with counterconditioning. Here are some explanations for these terms:

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/overview-behavior-modification/

 

Now differentiating the two isn't always easy. This is a new dog, so you might not have much history and his body language and behaviors appear ambiguous at times. I would therefore suggest having a dog behavior professional perform an in-person assessment and to guide you through behavior modification.

 

Now, when training dogs to perform certain behaviors like sit, down, heel, tricks and prepare dogs for sporting events, the ideal professional to enlist would be a dog trainer. When dealing with behavior issues such as anxiety, fear, aggression, etc, instead the ideal professional to consult with would be a dog behavior professional. Ideally, this would be a veterinary behaviorist, (DACVB) or a Certified Applied Animal Behaviorist (CAAB). These are the specialist of the field. Dog trainers though (like me) often take courses on behavior issues and pursue additional education on behavior, but the latter mentioned are professionals who have made of behavior exclusively their area of specialty.

 

I must emphasize the importance of finding a professional who uses kind, behavior modification methods. Using correction-based methods risk exacerbating the issue (eg. giving a dog a shock -or other form of correction- when the dog sees another dog and reacts risks exacerbating the issue because dogs may be conditioned to associate the presence of other dogs and people with the shock (or other correction), which only creates more anxiety.

 

Obviously, my response implies that your new dog requires your total focus on walks so to keep him under threshold so that you can implement productive behavior modification. This means that he needs your exclusive attention and you don't want to simultaneously walk him with another dog who may be potentially reactive (regardless if he barks at people or other dogs) and your dog feeds off his emotions.

Edited October 1, 2018 by Adrienne Farricelli