Esther Shares, Gertie Does Not

[JMFS]

So something I've noticed is that Esther doesn't seem to mind when Gertie sticks her nose close to things Esther is "in control" of.  A good example is a game of Keep Away they played today.  Gertie was trying to get a toy away from Esther and Esther thought it was Fun.  Then it slipped out of Esther's mouth for a second and Gerts snatched it up, proceeded to her bed, then hovered over it and the game was over.

https://youtu.be/GQTInHAc0sk

To me it looks like Esther was trying to entice a game of tug maybe, but then Gertie rained on the whole parade.  I traded Gertrude some treats for the toy because she wouldn't let Esther near it.  Now, if that had been Gertrude with the toy and Esther chasing, Gertie would have snapped.  She did it with a big branch this morning.  The thing was longer than my arm span and Esther had the good manners to take the far end, but Gertie was not okay with that.

I'm not looking to force Gertie to share (though that would be Grand I'm not holding my breath), but am curious if you have any insight as to why she's all take and no give, especially when Esther is giving (to me) signals that she's inviting shared play.  That defeated look on Esther's face at the end, lol.

Today has been such an adventure.  From Vet to first grooming to the first Post Office trip to lots of hard play in the yard.  These two should be tuckered out for couch time tonight (fingers crossed).

[Adrienne]

Hi Jennifer!

Interesting interaction! It did look like Esther was trying to shove the toy in Gertie's face in hopes of a game of tug. Sometimes, a longer tug toy may help to encourage this type of cooperative game as some dogs do not like to tug when the toy puts their faces too close to each other.  Gertie  though isn't as bouncy in this form of play as Gertie is, so it can be her goal was to simply gain access to the toy and chew it more than playing tug with it. Was this a new toy?

I do see some signs of resource guarding in Gertie. The taking the toy to her spot, lying down and hovering over it and then that second of stillness (maybe some nose wrinkling?) when Esther sniffs her. 

That sniffing could have been Esther's way of trying to test the waters and see what she could get away with. Esther though gave a quick pacifying tongue flick and seemed respectful of Gertie's initial request to be left alone and that was nice. 

Some rule setting behaviors like this are not unusual in the interactions between an older dog and younger puppy. At Esther's age, puppy license is usually revoked. As Esther matures though things may change and there may be some squabbles over things along the way. Hopefully things will remain for the most part ritualized. 

[JMFS]

It's a shame.  Gertie used to be sharing like Esther is.  It Is a fairly new toy.  I ended up trading Gertie a few treats for it because she chews the nibs off of squeakers rendering them silent.  I do have a longer tug rope around here somewhere.

This is why I asked a while back whether dogs learn behaviors from one another.  I think Gertie learned, after interactions with especially Abbi, that resources are to be guarded.  Mo used his words, as we know.  ❤  Abbi went on the attack immediately.  The only warning was a stiffening and stillness of her body and then Cujo-mode was in effect.  I managed Momo consistently, never allowing him to have something precious without protection for everyone in place.  The interactions between he and Gertie were seldom and always with a gate between them.  I can't think of a single time they were in an argument outside of Momo being crated with his treat.  Abbi, on the other hand, tried (pathetically) to bite Gertie's throat.  Those 8 lb jaws don't do much, but the noise was adrenaline-inducing and when Gertie backed off Abbi pressed on instead of being satisfied that Gertie left.

As long as Esther continues to do a good job of reading body language I'll be happy. It's significantly better than it was with Momo and infinitely better than Abbi.  :)  I can at least have these girls next to one another for training and no arguments break out.  I couldn't treat Mo and Gertie at the same time because he'd get snippy even with them on opposite sides of the room.

Esther really looks toward Gertie for cues and I'm hoping to limit the amount of guarding she picks up.  Even now they're sleeping on their beds with their backs to one another, but Esther's head is outstretched to Almost touch Gertie's neck.  Last night Gertie's rump was a pillow for Esther.  Velcro pup!  She's such a sweet dog (minus her one transgression with Abbi; which Abbi started and Esther finished) and I hope Gertie continues her patient trend  Gerts isn't quite yet 4 so she's still pretty young herself.  Perhaps one day I can get another Behaviorist to help me with the small bumps if Esther doesn't catch on.  I'll help her figure it out, but I only move so quick!  Therefore, management will be my mantra.  :)  It would have been fun for them to play a nice game of keep away / tug, but I'll resist the urge to encourage it until I'm sure they Both accept / want it.

[JMFS]

I sent an email to the gal who helped me find a Behaviorist once before.  This is just silly.  Gertie and Esther were doing okay today with a ball but I'm guessing I missed signals and when their bodies touched Gertie snapped at Esther.  Instead of backing down this time Esther snapped back and it escalated.  The biggest issue is that Esther reacts more intensely than I think she should when she gets corrected / shut down / snipped at.  Instead of leaving she attacks and goes for the neck.  Fortunately it's the top of the neck where Gertie has more hair and muscle than tender parts, but with those sharp puppy teeth I worry about injury.  Everyone checked out - it must have been more noise than anything.

Things we have going for us are that she's still small, young, and submits when I pull her off - though I am not a fan of having to do that because *I* don't have hair and muscle as protection.  I'm quite a bit softer than Gertie!  My concern is Esther's going to Probably be around 50 - 55 lbs when she's done growing and more powerful than she is now.  97% of the time they're best buds and still play together very well when resources aren't involved.

For now my plan is management.  No more new toys when they're together.  Esther plays with the old toys while lying on top of Gertie and Gertie sleeps through it so I can only guess it's new things that will be an issue.  I'll take a second here to say if Gertie hadn't chewed a hole in most of the old toys trying to get that nib off the squeakers I wouldn't have had to buy new toys.  😆  Then I'll say if someone had been watching Gertie more closely there wouldn't be holes in those toys.  😉

When I find someone to help me I think it will go something like:

• Give Gertie a low value toy, have her on a leash and one of us in control of that
• Esther on a leash and the other of us in control of that
• Walk Esther past Gertie at a distance acceptable to Gertie
  • Give Gertie a high value treat
  • Praise Esther for leaving Gertie alone
• Rinse and repeat until we can get closer
  • Go at Gertrude's speed

My husband isn't comfortable enough with training to assist and with behavior I'd feel more comfortable having someone More experienced than me.  Mo gave me plenty of experience, but it's still good to have a fresh set of eyes.  Eyes that are versed in doggy body language at that.

Whew!  I understand why folks prefer to go to a breeder for that known history, but I have it in me to get this sorted and give this girl a life she deserves.  <3  Who knows what happened in the house she was first adopted to. They had a special needs child and said Esther was too much for him.  I've seen some signs that make me think she may not have had the best treatment while there and some of the answers they put on the intake sheet don't jibe with what I'm seeing (e.g., it said she chewed up furniture and other things - she hasn't damaged a single plush or bothered our furniture.  Pee pads are a different story, lol, and they must be ripped asunder).

[Adrienne]

It's a shame.  Gertie used to be sharing like Esther is.  It Is a fairly new toy.  I ended up trading Gertie a few treats for it because she chews the nibs off of squeakers rendering them silent.  I do have a longer tug rope around here somewhere.

It would be great if dogs could share, but it's not very common, sure pups may play in a sharing way when young, and some may even eat food from the same bowls without any signs of problems, but there is this predisposition for not sharing as we would like as they mature. However, on the positive side, dogs are pretty good in communicating their emotions through body language and this helps prevent them from getting into physical fights where harm is done. 

In general, we expect socially skilled adult dogs to not steal objects from another dog by persistent pestering or force. When a dog claims an object, and he's lying down with it, the other dogs should respect this sort of like "OK, OK, I got the message, I will leave you alone." 

If the dogs know each other well and are still in a playful mood, there may still be some play, with one dog trying to lure the other dog away so the object can be stolen, but it's often done with a lot of play bows from the "stealer" and the other dog may growl/bark but in a playful tone and then may decide to get up to resume play.

 In my experience, (generally) male dogs may give female dogs some more leeway, allowing them to get away with things more compared to two same-sex dogs and adult dogs and young puppies allow also some leeway but only up to a certain age.

With young puppies, generally under the age of 4 to 5 months old, well-socialized adult dogs will be quite tolerant giving leeway for the puppy to act as a mischievous, silly pup. Things change though once the puppy matures. At some point, the "puppy license to misbehave" is revoked and foolishness is no longer tolerated. Past this point, puppies need to learn to control themselves and behave more politely. 

So the respectful tendency to not get too close when a dog is in a serious: "stay away from my toy" mode is something youngsters learn, mostly through trial and error. Sort of like: "Whoops, I pushed her buttons, next time I will just keep my distance, she's serious about it. "

With forms of quite mild guarding between dogs where's there's mostly communication (leave me alone now) and respect for personal spaces (I understand, I will stay away), intervention may not be needed, however, this doesn't mean we should ignore it. It requires careful monitoring to ensure things don't escalate and that a puppy doesn't continue to persist.

We don't want a dog to feel stressed often when around the other dog to the point of developing constant fear of losing resources, and we don't want the other dog to  become stressed about even innocent things such as just walking around and breathing. 

As long as Esther continues to do a good job of reading body language I'll be happy. It's significantly better than it was with Momo and infinitely better than Abbi. 🙂  I can at least have these girls next to one another for training and no arguments break out.  I couldn't treat Mo and Gertie at the same time because he'd get snippy even with them on opposite sides of the room.

It looked like in the first interaction, Esther backed away with her apologetic lip lick. Sure, she could have laid down a bit more distant, but she's likely new to this. Teaching her to not insist with a "leave it" or smacking sound  may help if she keeps on trying to pester. This way she has Gertie warning her and you to more convincingly back her up that "yes, you need to move away."

Gertie and Esther were doing okay today with a ball but I'm guessing I missed signals and when their bodies touched Gertie snapped at Esther.  Instead of backing down this time Esther snapped back and it escalated.  The biggest issue is that Esther reacts more intensely than I think she should when she gets corrected / shut down / snipped at.  Instead of leaving she attacks and goes for the neck.  Fortunately it's the top of the neck where Gertie has more hair and muscle than tender parts, but with those sharp puppy teeth I worry about injury.  Everyone checked out - it must have been more noise than anything.

Glad that it was noise more than anything. It would be important in this case knowing whether Gertie snapped because she was concerned about Esther trying to get the ball  or if she reacted to the touch. Getting toys out of the equation could help with such assessment to determine whether toys evoke her behavior or she is trying to temper Gertie's play style. 

 If Esther doesn't back down or listen to cues given from a dog that communicates well, then that is a concern. Such pups needs a lot of interruption. They should be very responsive to a solid recall/smacking sound before being allowed to play with the older dog. Actually, both dogs need to be responsive so that you can interrupt play before things start escalating. Play should be carefully monitored and there should be a plan to break up play into manageable, fun bursts.

Investing time in training individually come, leave its and go to your mat behaviors can turn helpful and then practicing when the dogs are together. This helps manage them by being able to redirect one or another to separate them. As always, aim to train better impulse control frustration tolerance

Make sure both dogs are enjoying the interaction. Look for bouncy body movement, play bows, high-pitched barks, rocking-chair gaits, happy play faces. If the dogs show signs of genuinely enjoying each other, the prognosis is much better than if they merely appear to tolerating each other.

Also, it helps to create positive associations though bonding activities. Taking both dogs together on walks or hikes can be a good bonding experience. It also helps to create a safe haven for each dog where the dogs can take breaks from being around each other and enjoy some peace and quiet. This is a good time to work with Esther at a distance where Gerties cannot see or hear what you are doing (like out in the yard while Gertie is inside preferably with somebody else giving her attention) on some obedience training and brain games so to drain some of that energy. 

Things we have going for us are that she's still small, young, and submits when I pull her off - though I am not a fan of having to do that because *I* don't have hair and muscle as protection.  I'm quite a bit softer than Gertie!

Consider that young pups tend to become over stimulated easily (they don't have an off switch) and that can easily tip over to aggression. Both overarousal and mild social anxiety can lead to a nervous puppy who reacts more easily.  Consider as well that high arousal/frustration can spark aggression that includes redirected aggression. So caution is needed in separating the dogs should a fight erupt, always best to interrupt before things get to that point. Once again, train for quick responses and monitor play. Have a plan in place to break a fight without getting in between physically.

My concern is Esther's going to Probably be around 50 - 55 lbs when she's done growing and more powerful than she is now.  97% of the time they're best buds and still play together very well when resources aren't involved.

For now my plan is management.  No more new toys when they're together.  Esther plays with the old toys while lying on top of Gertie and Gertie sleeps through it so I can only guess it's new things that will be an issue.  I'll take a second here to say if Gertie hadn't chewed a hole in most of the old toys trying to get that nib off the squeakers I wouldn't have had to buy new toys.  😆  Then I'll say if someone had been watching Gertie more closely there wouldn't be holes in those toys.  😉

When I find someone to help me I think it will go something like:

Give Gertie a low value toy, have her on a leash and one of us in control of that
Esther on a leash and the other of us in control of that
Walk Esther past Gertie at a distance acceptable to Gertie
Give Gertie a high value treat
Praise Esther for leaving Gertie alone
Rinse and repeat until we can get closer
Go at Gertrude's speed
My husband isn't comfortable enough with training to assist and with behavior I'd feel more comfortable having someone More experienced than me.  Mo gave me plenty of experience, but it's still good to have a fresh set of eyes.  Eyes that are versed in doggy body language at that.

Whew!  I understand why folks prefer to go to a breeder for that known history, but I have it in me to get this sorted and give this girl a life she deserves. ❤️  Who knows what happened in the house she was first adopted to. They had a special needs child and said Esther was too much for him.  I've seen some signs that make me think she may not have had the best treatment while there and some of the answers they put on the intake sheet don't jibe with what I'm seeing (e.g., it said she chewed up furniture and other things - she hasn't damaged a single plush or bothered our furniture.  Pee pads are a different story, lol, and they must be ripped asunder).

Management always works best for things like this, until help can be enlisted. Your behavior mod program sounds like a good plan, you would aim for a conditioned emotional response where Gertie looks happy when Esther walks by. It can be started even without Gertie having a resource yet. Just plainly making it clear that Esther walking by makes good things happen. When Ester is away, no more treats. Open bar/closed bar method.

After several reps with a positive CER obtained, then it can be done with Gertie and a low-value toy. Same thing, always aiming for +CER. Practice in different areas of the home to help generalize the behavior. It would have to be clear to her that it's Esthers' walking by that makes good things happen. Then, one would work with Gertie and a higher value toy same exercise, different areas, always aiming for +CER. 

With this work done though, I wouldn't feel safe to let Esther just approach Gertie when she has a toy. I would aim for a second line of defense just in case. That is, I would also train Esther that when Gertie is with a toy or other valuable resource, she has to withdraw when cued. She would also have to withdraw immediately if Gertie would give a hard stare or nose wrinkling/snarl.  I like to use the smacking sound for that. 

With close supervision, management in place when not doing behavior mod (no toys around), behavior modification to change Gertie's emotional response, training Esther to withdraw and  a plan in place to separate dogs in case of a fight (without having to get in between and risk a redirected bite) you should have covered many basis, however as you know, behavior mod. is something I always recommend doing  in presence of a professional for safety and because it requires a very structured setting and lots of judgement calls, especially initially. 

Finally, something to think about. If "assuming" she is really resource guarding and this is very uncharacteristic of her, consider that when a dog who was part of the social group passes away, things can be quite unsettling for the first week or so. It's as if their world turns upside down. So it could be she is undergoing some stress from the loss of Momo. 

A little anecdotal story: When Petra passed away, Einstein was acting very odd. He never ever in his life acted possessive over stuff against us, and there he was now sometimes out of the blue hovering over a toy. This was so out of character for him both I and hubby at some point were wondering whether Petra was walking around as a ghost! Now, I am not much a ghost believer, I am more for things down to earth and "sciency," never appreciated much nor believed in the paranormal so this just didn't make much sense. 

Einstein and Petra always resource guarded stuff from each other but it was rather mild and always ritualistic. One would get a toy or bone and would go to their own mat to enjoy it. If one came too close at times, a quick growl and grab of the toy would make the point. They each respected their requests for space with an "OK, OK,I got it  that toy is very important to you, you can have it."

Only a couple of times in their 10 years together they got into a more intense squabble. Once hubby was bouncing a ball making them too excited and building too much anticipation they ended up fighting over it when he tossed it. The other time, was when Petra was sick and didn't want to eat so she turned her body away from food acting disinterested, and Einstein interpreted it as her not wanting it so decided to get closer and was met with angry growling, barking and snapping. "I am sick, but not stupid, and no you can't have that!"

With little explanation over Einstein's new behavior, we chucked it up to the stress of the loss or he was just so used to b guarding stuff from her, he no longer knew what to do when he had a toy from this point forward. After a week or so, he was back to his normal relaxed state. 

Just something to think about. Sometimes these losses can impact them in unexpected ways and can generate stress as they create profound changes (as they do to us)  so that may be too something at play that is making her more over the edge. 

Hope this helps,

Best,

Adrienne 

[JMFS]

It all makes sense, as usual.  :)  If there's one thing I've learned here it's to proceed with caution and at the dogs' pace.  I can do the preliminary CER work without objects being involved - that should be a piece of cake and merely reinforcing what's already happening.

They do play very well together in the yard and even with the jaw fighting inside.  They share beds with no problems.  Though they have 3 in different areas of the bedroom and two in the office, they usually end up together.  From what I've seen so far it's only been with the newer toys.  That's good news, though, because it means when we're ready to do CER with actual items we have plenty to choose from for the first stage.

Lots and lots of play bowing, high-pitched vocalizations, bouncy play, bunny hops, etc . . ..  Gertie often invites Esther to play, which I think is a mark in the pros box.  There hasn't been a single time when they're playing that either of them has gotten upset.  They need to learn to be a little gentler with one another and I play referee to guide them in that regard.  Both listen well and ease up, thank goodness.

A large part of my stress has been how busy we are with work.  I haven't been able to dedicate the time I want to Esther's obedience and basic training.  A contributing factor to that is Abbi being so needy.  If she's left in the room without a human around she barks, howls, and carries on.  I'm looking for ways to carve out time to do the training because it's driving me batty that she's not better mannered already - still having accidents in the house which is something I've always been able to get tackled in the first week or two and we're coming up on week 2 tomorrow.  Esther also has no off button.  She's wired for sound from 1 pm after her nap to 11 pm when we're ready to go to bed (no more 3 am bed times for me!).

Once I can get her basics down we'll be in a better place.  She already listens better than the other dogs with leave it and recall so I'm counting that as a major plus.

Going from your Einstein story, both Esther and Gertrude were staring at the ceiling the other night.  I kept thinking, "knock it off, Mo!"  Not sure what he'd be doing on the ceiling, but it's where my mind went, lol.

[JMFS]

Gertie's face on the last picture . . . 😆😆😆

An accidental training moment.  I found this old toy yesterday and Esther's been having a "ball" with it (ha!).  I guess some memories came back for Gerts as to how much she used to love the toy.  When Esther turned around to nip an itch Gertie took the ball.  The first pic is Esther's realization her toy had been snagged.  Then Gertie had and itch and, well, one good turn deserves another!

This toy is low value enough for them to wrestle on top of (which was breaking my rule of no more rough housing in the house - a step towards keeping arguments at bay).  They were "sharing" it by "stealing" it from one another for about 10 minutes.  Impossible to get work done with these two clowns around!  All three toys in the pictures are low value to Gertie.  Esther hasn't shown any resource guarding signs, yet, but I'm keeping a close eye on it.  The two beds with their bolsters butted against one another and covered with a twin sheet is working brilliantly to establish a boundary when they want it.  Black maybe isn't the best choice for Esther's side.  I just got two waterproof twin mattress covers I'm going to try in case Esther decides to drink the entire pool again.

[Adrienne]

LOL, Gerties' like rolling her eyes thinking "The things I must put up with with this pup!" Esther looks a bit tense, head lowered, hovering on the toy,  looking sideways, maybe sort of worried if she'll want it back, but a picture is just a frame in time. Good that you are monitoring, always keep an eye open. When one dog has a toy, the other will always want it (even if they have the exact same toys) and that alone can increase its value. 

I guess Gertie needs to learn how to scratch an itch with a toy in her mouth!

 

[JMFS]

Yep, just a frame in time.  She was repositioning the ball and then they started jaw play shortly after, initiated by Esther.  Gertie has been inviting play quite a bit more now and I've had to tell her to knock it off.  They're starting to come along and Esther is learning how to check herself instead of giving in to those puppy impulses.

They're funny in the yard.  Esther will get tired of trying to catch Gertie so she'll plop down in the yard as though she's hunkering in tall grass.  I think she's half cat - even wiggles her butt like a cat will when ready to pounce.  Gertie will realize she's not being chased any more and then there's a stare off and suddenly Gerts will do that rocking run you mentioned (it's neat knowing what to call these behaviors!) up to Esther.  Right before she gets to Esther she'll put on the turbo speed and do a drive by and the chase is back on.  So far since the day we brought her home there have only been two yelps in the yard during this play and both times it's been Gertrude being too rough.  It was when the play first started and I chalked it up to overexcitability on Gertie's part.  I often tell them to knock it off because they're being too rowdy for my comfort.  Like a scruff bite that turns into a scruff drag - that feels too aggressive for me. 

I prefer dogs' point system - that's how I imagine their play.  A bite, body bump, or paw landed on the other dog equals a point and then they move on to get another point.  When they do a sustained bite I call foul.  No more collars in the yard, either.  They both take advantage of that and drag the other one so the collars come off to even the playing field.  Poor Esther has all that extra puppy skin so Gertie still has a slight advantage.  I can make Esther look like a Shar Pei by mushing up all that skin around her face, lol.  She's gaining about 1 lb per week so she'll start fitting her coat eventually.  I'm estimating she'll be 50 lbs when done, Maybe 55 because her paws are pretty big. Or maybe she won't and she'll just have big feet.  😆 She's approximately 7 months now and 37 lbs.  Gertie has about 5 pounds before they're equal in size so she has about a month to teach the youngun how to dog before she's outsized.  With all this exercise their muscles are getting nicely defined and I give them a short massage each night - it's a lot of work to play like they do and I'm sure they're sore.

[Adrienne]

Yep, just a frame in time.  She was repositioning the ball and then they started jaw play shortly after, initiated by Esther.  Gertie has been inviting play quite a bit more now and I've had to tell her to knock it off.  They're starting to come along and Esther is learning how to check herself instead of giving in to those puppy impulses.

This is all wonderful! 

So far since the day we brought her home there have only been two yelps in the yard during this play and both times it's been Gertrude being too rough.  It was when the play first started and I chalked it up to overexcitability on Gertie's part.  I often tell them to knock it off because they're being too rowdy for my comfort.  Like a scruff bite that turns into a scruff drag - that feels too aggressive for me. I prefer dogs' point system - that's how I imagine their play.  A bite, body bump, or paw landed on the other dog equals a point and then they move on to get another point.  When they do a sustained bite I call foul. 

It sounds like they are learning a whole lot from each other, and with your help, they are getting skilled in moderating play.

No more collars in the yard, either.  They both take advantage of that and drag the other one so the collars come off to even the playing field.  Poor Esther has all that extra puppy skin so Gertie still has a slight advantage.  I can make Esther look like a Shar Pei by mushing up all that skin around her face, lol.  She's gaining about 1 lb per week so she'll start fitting her coat eventually.  I'm estimating she'll be 50 lbs when done, Maybe 55 because her paws are pretty big. Or maybe she won't and she'll just have big feet.  😆 She's approximately 7 months now and 37 lbs.  Gertie has about 5 pounds before they're equal in size so she has about a month to teach the youngun how to dog before she's outsized. 

That's good. The risks for collar strangulation are real. There are several reports of dogs being strangled to death by their collars during play. All it takes is a dog's lower jaw to get twisted into the other dog's collar or a tooth to get stuck in a buckle hole while the dogs are playing. Both dogs panic, and by the time the owners rush to help the dogs, it may be too late. It takes only a few seconds for strangulation to occur. Collar accidents can therefore even happen with close supervision.

With all this exercise their muscles are getting nicely defined and I give them a short massage each night - it's a lot of work to play like they do and I'm sure they're sore.

Such pampered pets! 

[JMFS]

Gertie continues to confound me.  They were playing a lovely (very closely monitored) game of tug with a long toy.  Esther had a death grip on it so Gertie didn't get much opportunity to take it away.  The one time she did manage to get it and Esther went to re-engage Gertie snapped at her.  Esther had Gerts on the ground Immediately and was baring teeth, ready to fight - Esther's such a scrappy puppy.  Happy to share and everything until someone else gets grouchy and then she's going to finish what was started.  I was there, though, waiting for it Just in case, and a loud clap and, "hey!" stopped the argument.  It is a new tug toy the shelter gave us and I brought it out because it's longer than our other tug.  Nothing special, just a rope.

They were taking turns being the tugger and tuggee and everything Seemed fine.  Bodies were relaxed aside from the muscles moving to tug and be tugged.  Ears were flopping, not pulled back or perked up.  Tails were wagging up high, not down low or even in the middle.  No vocalizations, no intent staring or whale eyes.  Of course each time I tried to record the nice play Gertie lost interest.  🙄  She's as keen to be famous as I am, lol. 

It's been raining for nearly 4 weeks with no end in sight (potential hurricane that will probably miss us but bring more rain) and they haven't been out to run around for 3 weeks because of all the mushrooms.  I carry a bucket around to pick them up, but holy heck if 3 more don't take their place making it a futile exercise.  I've allowed them to wrestle in two approved areas (office and bedroom where there are large spaces) to try to get some of that energy out and they had one such session before I brought out the toy.  My thinking was to get some of the pent up energy out Before we tried this game.  They played for a good 5 - 10 minutes before Gertie took control of the game and the fun ended.

She's only 4, too young to be a grumpus.  In My opinion, lol.

[Adrienne]

I am glad that you were able to stop the argument verbally versus using physical intervention and that your dog paid attention to you. If this has been a new conflict after no conflict for some time, it could be the "novelty factor" again at play since you mentioned that most conflict occurs over new toys (consider that toys Esther and Gertie haven't seen around for some time qualify as novel as well from a dog's perspective). 

Perhaps more than playing tug in sort of unworried way, the novelty factor turned this at some point into more of a real competition. In a first video you posted, of your dogs playing tug, I think Gertie wasn't as bouncy in this form of play as Esther was, so it can be her goal is to simply gain access to the toy rather than playing at some point. Therefore, management once again is the ideal course of action until you can enlist help to assess their relationship.

It's a bit concerning though how you describe Esther reacts when Gertie gets grouchy: pinning Gertie to the ground and then going into attack mode ready to fight. She is rather young still so one must think into the future about how she may react once she's socially mature and more powerful. As she matures though, Gertie may end up being less "grouchy" and the tables may turn where Esther may be the one playing grouchy, only that Gertie may respect her wishes and not react to it and just let her have the toy (or whatever she wants). 

In several occasions, the younger dogs being added to a household are the ones that end up taking over gaining priority access to some resources. The process though is often not without conflict along the way. How the conflict is solved is important though, to ensure less harm is done. If everything stays  ritualistic, with just noise or  squabbles that can be interrupted easily that's much more desirable, than two female dogs with a real intent to harm who are oblivious to the owner's requests to disengage. 

As you mention though, I can see being kept indoors for a long time can impact behavior. So the weather change could have been an aggravating factor. Exercise and mental stimulation can help relax dogs and reduce their reactivity by increasing beneficial concentrations of serotonin in their brain. 

[JMFS]

Yes, I'm watching Esther closely because she's so ready to fight.  I keep pondering what on Earth went on in her first 6 months of life with how ready to battle she can get, and she's still quite skittish.  Her reactions have lessened considerably as we've been familiarizing and I've been working on exposing her to new experiences.  She nearly fell over herself last night when I grabbed our stack of checks to mail.  Like I was going to smack her with them or something.  I turned it into a game, making the envelopes a fun thing instead and this exercise went Much faster than past attempts to desensitize her.  She no longer jumping 5 feet in the air when the leash touches her butt and that one took about 3 weeks to work out of her so I'm heartened by the envelopes taking less than 5 minutes to lose their fear factor.

With her pinning Gertie Esther's head was in the air and she was pushing back on Gertie's chest with her front feet instead of going straight in for a bite so that (I think) is a good sign.  As you mentioned, the fact that I was able to stop it verbally instead of having to pull them apart is also heartening.  I feel she's learning restraint, but boy am I still on high alert!  She is fascinated by Abbi but we won't allow her near Abbi so we're definitely playing to caution. 

The game of tug came about accidentally and since both of them seem relaxed and appeared to be enjoying it I let it ride.  I'll take your words under advisement.  I don't want to discourage them playing nicely together, but I also don't want to allow an opportunity for strife.  It's a dance of balance for sure!  This puppy has been such a challenge.  I thought Mo had issues!  His were at least with only one thing - food.  Esther is full of trials.  She's beyond loving and she nurtures Gertie when allowed (we discourage the privates licking - it's just uncomfortable for we humans, lol), but the other day they were snuggled together and Esther was licking Gertie's ears while Gertie was leaning into it.  She actually Likes being picked up and just melts - she's like a rag doll, and anyone who will give her scratches is her best friend.  She's very leery of new people initially so I want to take her to Lowe's and anywhere else I can to expose her to people.  Considering getting her a vest, though, that warns people she's in training and nervous.  She's still highly interested in dogs on television or monitors, but has stopped barking, whining, and trying to get to them.  We have miles and miles to go with her.

I have a feeling Esther may have been kept in a crate for a significant time of her short life before we got her.  She seems most comfortable there and goes in willingly.  She even waits for the door to close before she'll touch her Wobbler, despite me telling her "okay."  I feel that's the Only training she ever received.

Overall it's going well, but I have lost my patience a couple times because there's just So much work to do with her, thus I'm in training, too (it's not just her - work is causing huge gobs of stress right now and that's causing my arthritis to flare up).  I've put her in her kennel with a Kong each time so I can regroup. Only 11 more months of adolescence to go!  We can do this!  I am going to contact that Jenny gal again (she did respond and I liked what she had to say in regards to assessing their play - it was close to what you had to say so I know I can work with her).  The thing holding me back is time and that she does training at night - I can't drive at night and someone has to stay with Abbi so the husband can't drive me.  We'll figure something out, though! 

[FrederykBlot]

Haha I couldn't not react to those eyes

It says it all

"Seriously..."

"Mom please do something, I can't take it anymore"

"Arhhhh kids..."

 

But also good job capturing the exact moment 😂😂

[JMFS]

95% of the time they love each other.  The other 5% Gertie is having none of it, lol.  This is them after all the excitement with Abbi's emergency yesterday.  They're such good girls to have endured the hour long round trip and another hour of surgery.

[JMFS]

Interesting interaction yesterday.  Esther was chomping on something in the distance and Gertie ran up to her, was hopping around like a bunny and when Esther dropped the thing Gerts stole it.  I was not pleased Until . . ..  Gertrude brought it up towards me, far from Esther, flopped down on the ground with it, dropped it, then left it alone and looked at me.  Curious, I walked over and picked it up.  Someone had thrown a thick plastic bag or some kind of super tape (if that's a thing, lol) that was about 9" x 9".  It was really dirty and rubbery.  Gertie didn't mind one bit when I picked it up and threw it over the fence to put in the bin later.  For once she wasn't being rude about stealing, and I think she was preventing Esther from ingesting the trash.

[FrederykBlot]

I wouldn't be able to advise on the subject as our boy is alone, but just wanted to say the picture is precious ! They're lovely !

 

[Adrienne Farricelli]

That sure is interesting! Brings me back some old sweet memories.

1) Petra as a puppy, growling at me the first time when given a bone. Worked on instilling trust with lots of drop its using valuable treats, starting with low value things then building up to things she would find on the ground outdoors and indoors. One day, I dropped a pen and didn't notice. Normally she would snatch it and go lie down to chew on it, and that one day instead she grabbed it, brought it to me and dropped it on my lap looking at me with anticipation for a treat. Priceless!

2) I moved to this rental home where the previous tenant was a smoker. Lots of cigarette butts in the yard which can be toxic eaten by dogs in certain amounts. So I am out in the yard with Einstein picking them up. Einstein watches me and then starts picking up cigarette butts and I tell him to drop it in fear he'll eat them. At some point, I am taking a break, sitting with the trash bag open and Einstein approaches and stands in front of the bag and drops a cigarette butt in the bag! Priceless!

Take Gertie's action as a sign of deep trust towards you! Not all dogs would voluntarily relinquish something new found on the ground that is interesting. 

I am not sure if dogs can think along the lines of "I will take this away from Esther because it's "bad" for her", (yet who can prove that until the day dogs can talk!) but maybe I can see it happen more along the lines of " I will bring this to my owner who is happy when I drop stuff we find". 

[JMFS]

Gerts has done it twice more and it's been tape from our well each time.  I thought I'd cleaned it all up, but dang if dogs aren't better at finding things, lol.

Gertie was "naughty" today because the yard guys Never close the gate that encloses the pool yard.  Grrrr.  I called the girls in and there's Gerts, cooling her feet off in the pool.  I was not impressed and she got to stay in the kennel after eating to dry off before I allowed her on the dog beds.  She Definitely needs refresher courses - her behavior is becoming less-than-stellar.  Barking at anything moving along the fence line, shooting out of the door at break neck speed (though she Does wait until I tell her she can go), not sitting (basic stuff here, Gerts!), and her recall Stinks.  She practices selective hearing.  I Know she can hear me because if I so much as whisper "treat" to Esther I can see Gertie's ears perk up.

However!  Help is on the way!  I procured an appointment with Leah on the 18th.  I have a 10-page document to fill out for each dog and the initial consult is 3 hours as we go through everything the pups need to learn.

Can't wait to see how the husband fares when I leave him on Sunday.  😆  I come back Wednesday.  Hopefully everyone's alive and well!  I printed out instructions and The Schedule, lol.

[Adrienne Farricelli]

"Shooting out of the door at break neck speed (though she Does wait until I tell her she can go), not sitting (basic stuff here, Gerts!), and her recall Stinks.  She practices selective hearing.  I Know she can hear me because if I so much as whisper "treat" to Esther I can see Gertie's ears perk up.

Sounds like the typical adolescent stage! 

Doesn't this sound familiar?

Stuck in a “Duh” Moment

"Gone are the days when your puppy was eager to please you. You’ll now likely notice your dog acting as if he has never heard a command before. These “duh!” episodes of memory loss are quite common during the adolescent stage and will require your patience and understanding. Getting mad and frustrated when your dog doesn’t come to you when called won’t do any good. Fortunately, this is a transitioning phase and you’ll eventually see the light at the end of the tunnel.

More Independence

Just like human teenagers, adolescent dogs will want to have it their way and will want more independence. We can’t blame them: This is the age where, in the wild, the dog’s ancestors separated from their families to form their own packs. Dogs at this age are keen to try new behaviors and test their boundaries. Gone are the days when your puppy loved to stick by your side and would come running the moment you were out of sight! There are many more interesting sights, smells and sounds at this time just waiting to be discovered.

More here: 

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/survive-dogs-adolescent-stage/

I would suggesting keeping that brain busy and yes, doing some refresher courses. Practice those recalls using sub-steps of what was particularly challenging, upping the reinforcement value. It's amazing how dogs respond to whispering and calm tones of voice. 

[FrederykBlot]

I have no special advice here, but just wanted to let you know, you're not alone :)

Gone are the days when your puppy loved to stick by your side and would come running the moment you were out of sight! There are many more interesting sights, smells and sounds at this time just waiting to be discovered.

Fully into that one !

I even got scolded by other owners because he was free while I thought I was alone, then someone was coming from sooooo far I didn't see them, and Loki decided on his own to go to them, and even an emergency U Turn, which usually worked was not enough to make him come back to us

I got myself into the "heyyyy watch your dog !!" vs "sorry sorry we training free walk we thought we were alone, we didn't see your from so far behind"
because Loki was friendly and they didn't appear to like that :)

[JMFS]

I can't Wait for October 18th!  It's going to be expensive, but less so than the Gainesville doctor.  $500 for the initial 4-hour consult, $175 / hour after that.  It's a bit steeper than I was looking for given Mo's trainer was $550 for 5 weeks, but if it brings peace to our lives then so be it!  I don't know what reasonable pricing is, but we shall find out if it's worth the cost!  She's including Abbi in the pricing but Abbi isn't going to participate.  She's at the stage in life where we're just making her as comfortable as possible.  That, and Abbi doesn't move any more.  Her right side simply does not function and we're wondering if she perhaps had a stroke we didn't catch due to all the other issues.

Esther's leash pulling and pushing Gertie out of the way are about to drive me up the wall.  Not to mention she's killing my neck and shoulders with the yanking.  U-turns and stopping in place and waiting aren't doing the trick, but she sure will stick by my side if I have treats.  We'll have to undo something, I'm sure, before we can get that leash nice and loose.  Pushing Gertie is aggravating.  Gerts was here first, youngun, have some respect!

The Incurin finally arrived today so we'll pair that with the Proin and hope for the best.  She's still accident prone with the Proin (husband had to change the dogs' bed sheets 3 times because he was stuck on the phone or outside).  Other than that they behaved for him for the most part.  I make it look easy, haha.  The first text I got from him was, "I don't know why you have so much trouble with Esther, it's been 3 hours and we're doing fine."  In my mind I was thinking, "wait for it . . .".  Haha!  I think he has a new appreciation for why I can't get my work done as quickly and thoroughly as I did pre-Esther.  She's a mess, but help is on the way.  :)

Oh, and Esther has managed to chew up not only the red Kong toys, but even the black ones!  Holy crud.  Even Momo, who could crush them down completely and chewed through all other toys, never damaged the Kongs, red or black.  So I'm looking for some stronger treat toys for her. The black Kong she tore up was the XL ribbon.  They don't get tougher than that in the Kong line!

[Adrienne Farricelli]

 

I can't Wait for October 18th!  It's going to be expensive, but less so than the Gainesville doctor.  $500 for the initial 4-hour consult, $175 / hour after that.  It's a bit steeper than I was looking for given Mo's trainer was $550 for 5 weeks, but if it brings peace to our lives then so be it! 

A 4-hour consult sounds very promising! It tells us that this professional will go in super depth on everything and gather as much info as possible about the whole dynamics going on. For sure, it all would be priceless if you are able to reach a good level of harmony between Gerts and Esther.  I am glad you are getting help for this now as things tend to get much worse once they reach social maturity. 

She's including Abbi in the pricing but Abbi isn't going to participate.  She's at the stage in life where we're just making her as comfortable as possible.  That, and Abbi doesn't move any more.  Her right side simply does not function and we're wondering if she perhaps had a stroke we didn't catch due to all the other issues.

Oh no, so sorry to hear! While dogs can have strokes, they aren't that common as in humans. More common causes of a side not working well are usually back issues (doxies are poster child of disc diseases like IVDD), vestibular disorders, brain tumors etc.  Some of these can be managed and treated with some meds from the vet, so I think a vet visit would be helpful.  

Esther's leash pulling and pushing Gertie out of the way are about to drive me up the wall.  Not to mention she's killing my neck and shoulders with the yanking.  U-turns and stopping in place and waiting aren't doing the trick, but she sure will stick by my side if I have treats. We'll have to undo something, I'm sure, before we can get that leash nice and loose.  Pushing Gertie is aggravating.  Gerts was here first, youngun, have some respect!

I wasn't aware you were also struggling (still struggling?) with leash pulling and Esther pushing Gertie out of the way on top of them fighting. Or maybe you mentioned it a while back but we didn't do any further troubleshooting.  I recall you were going to dog parks and walking the perimeter and doing look at that exercises with her. 

 It's great that she is responsive to treats. That will pave the path to polite leash walking if you use them to reinforce sticking by your side.

Training with neck and shoulder pain is no fun and I am sure it has put a dent. A head halter can help if you have shoulder/neck pain, but not all trainers agree on its use. Of course, the more you practice in low distraction areas reinforcing baby steps, the better. Some dogs respond better with with this with clicker training. I am sure you are on the right path, but just need an extra set of eyes you guide you through and give you feedback. 

Last batch of sibling pups I had one of them at some point was starting to push the other out of the way when going through doors. This was solved easily by training them to sit before being allowed out of the yard and then being reinforced individually once outside to take the focus off of each other. Of course, this can be risky in dogs who resource guard, so discuss with your behavior professional on the best way to tackle this. 

Einstein used to push Petra too at times when they were in a hallway, but it never lead to squabbles and happened only in a blue moon, so I let it be. Both were trained to wait at doors leading to the yard though because at one point we lived in an unfenced area. 

The Incurin finally arrived today so we'll pair that with the Proin and hope for the best.  She's still accident prone with the Proin (husband had to change the dogs' bed sheets 3 times because he was stuck on the phone or outside).  Other than that they behaved for him for the most part.  I make it look easy, haha.  The first text I got from him was, "I don't know why you have so much trouble with Esther, it's been 3 hours and we're doing fine."  In my mind I was thinking, "wait for it . . .".  Haha!  I think he has a new appreciation for why I can't get my work done as quickly and thoroughly as I did pre-Esther.  She's a mess, but help is on the way.  🙂

I am glad that she behaved when you were away. Fingers crossed she gets better with the Incurin! 

Oh, and Esther has managed to chew up not only the red Kong toys, but even the black ones!  Holy crud.  Even Momo, who could crush them down completely and chewed through all other toys, never damaged the Kongs, red or black.  So I'm looking for some stronger treat toys for her. The black Kong she tore up was the XL ribbon.  They don't get tougher than that in the Kong line!

Oh wow! She's a super powerful chewer! Sounds like the second teething phase adolescents go through until their 9th month. How old is she now? I think I must have lost track of time so maybe she's bigger than that now and just got powerful jaws. 

The Kong Wobbler I have is something that has survived pitbulls, German shepherds and Rottweilers, other than a few teeth scratches, it's remained pretty much intact for many years. Of course, I aim to trade if I notice a dog insisting too much on chewing something. Gonoughts and West PAW make a line of tough toys that I think come with a warranty and are labeled as "indestructible' but can't attest to that. 

[JMFS]

I've looked at the Gonoughts and I think I'm going to get one in addition to another of these:

Smaller dogs:  https://www.chewy.com/petstages-orka-tire-tough-dog-chew/dp/217422

Bigger dogs:  https://www.chewy.com/petstages-orka-tire-tough-dog-chew/dp/46937

She does have a Wobbler I use every morning.  Her afternoon meal has the meds in it so I bowl feed that one in hopes she gulps the meds down with a big bite.  The evening meal is also in a bowl because my kiddo is asleep and the Wobbler makes an awful racket right above her room.  When we get that next house I'll be able to come up with some new ideas.  We have the kennels figured out now that we've expanded them to 4' x 4'.  I attached a picture of their current set up with my best effort at displaying the concept for the new ones.  The current is 68" L x 44" W so they'll lose a little length but gain a little width and then the door will lead out to a 4' x 6' run.  Plenty of space to work with for feeding / toys and we'll have a sturdier gate built with more height so they can't try a jump-over-the gate stunt from the beds.  The stairs pictured are just about right - they need maybe one more step to reach 30" high.  I'm losing my drawers underneath but we're getting more closet space so that's okay.  The drawers go back about 2' and the closet will be 4' deep and 6 or 8' high so I am definitely not going to complain!  The rest of the house is standard, but the office is all about the dogs and storage, lol.  I am making the beds mini crib mattress size because those are easy to find waterproof and fitted sheets for and oddly, mini crib mattresses are less expensive than most dog beds. 

They're pretty tough and have thus far stood up to her chewing.  They're just a bit tricky to stuff with mushier things to freeze.  I am going to try a peanut butter / apple sauce / yogurt mix in a baking piping set as they have a good long attachment that can reach into the crease.  I also keep my eye out for chunky treats that can go in there because all three dogs are too dang good at getting things out.

Esther is now 46 lbs and maybe 11 months old.  We got her May 9th and the vet said she was about 6 - 7 months old then so yes, 11 - 12 months old. Time has Flown!  With the pushing it doesn't start fights, it mainly annoys me because Gertie just takes it and it's rude (to me).  We haven't had a fight in a good long while as I've been vigilant with management.  Gertie will make this weird high pitched growl? snarl? when Esther is being too Esther and once in a while it will come with a warning air snap.  This usually occurs when they're lying on the couch or their beds and Esther is trying to entice play while Gerts wants to chill.  In those cases I have them move further away from each other and face the other direction so they're not looking at one another and that's been effective thus far.  In extreme cases I put Esther in her kennel with a toy.

Esther doesn't sleep during the day and wants to play all the time, despite outside play and brain games.  Endless energy!  It's tiring the rest of us out and October 18th can't come along soon enough!  I don't know if you know how much your clients look forward to your help, but I'm here to tell you it's like waiting for Christmas or a really exciting vacation!  You are so very important to your clients' lives!  <3

Abbi sees the doc about 1 - 2x per month and there was talk about amputation, but he said it would have to be at the shoulder and she would really struggle with that.  I sewed (horribly, lol) three hand towels together and we use those as a sling for toileting.  We couldn't find anything on the market, that wasn't super expensive, for a Dachshund's odd shape and the sling we did find was too narrow.  The towels work well because we can adjust the width and even air lift her so her back is supported and her weight is off her legs entirely.  There's a bit of a balancing act to get it right so her rib cage is supporting most of the weight and it's not on her soft organs.  Her poor little foot has rotated severely.  

[Adrienne Farricelli]

Thanks for posting those chews, I wasn't aware of them. They seem to have good reviews, other than the odd-ball dog who managed to chew one up in half an hour! 

Last time I worked with a dog living in an apartment, it helped to use the Kong Wobbler dog on a carpeted area. This helped buffer the sound to a good level. 

I love the kennel ideas and how nicely organized they are. 

Yup endless energy is part of the adolescent stage. Twice a day walks (with tiring sniffing adventures included) can help take some edge off on top of the brain games and play. 

Poor Abbi! It's so sad to watch them age. With Petra as she weakened, we too used a towel initially, then converted to a folded blanket to help her get up ad sustain some of her weight when walking.