JMFS Posted January 22, 2022 Author Posted January 22, 2022 Esther is moderating herself! She's really coming into her own lately. She's still giving me challenges, but she's beginning to mature. Even the trainer comments on how Esther Wants to do the right thing, she's just not sure How, or lacks the impulse control. I'm almost certain she's even smarter than Momo was, and that's saying a Lot. Her tongue has several black splotches! That's funny about the Corgi (from the other post) because I've been trying to divert the husband from getting another Dachshund and have put the Corgi bug in his brain. Corgis have their own challenges, but I've already been there, done that, with Dachshunds so why not give a different breed a try? He has watched numerous videos and read articles so there's hope. Yes, they're more grooming maintenance than Dachshunds, but after Mo there really is no coat I can't tackle. I swear he had 3 undercoats! Yes! Covid is running rampant again. Several of our sub contractors have it. It's such a bizarre illness - I tested negative 10 days after my husband tested positive and I had no symptoms whereas my husband was coughing violently, had the body aches, and Zero energy. He went to a clinic yesterday and they pumped him full of vitamins and fluids and gave him Rx for a Z-pack, codeine medication, and Ivermectin. He was sitting upright tonight, which is a major improvement. Like you, I was expecting to see Lab and AmStaff on those results. Lab was 5%. Chow Chow was a complete surprise, especially being twice as much as Labrador! 12% Catahoula?! You just never know with pound puppies! One neat thing about this test is that it gives me information on other dogs who were tested, and who share the same genetic markers. I have a list of 2 "extended family" and 21 distant relatives. One of the distant is also in Florida. They don't give a manner to contact, but it's fun to look at. I'll try to get some pictures, or maybe a video, up of the trail. I put up one solar spotlight tonight and it's quite good. I need the second one to be able to see everything, but still, it's far better than the previous cheap ones I bought. And even if the sun doesn't charge them I can use the USB charger as a back up. That was a driving factor in the purchase - I've been let down by so many solar lights!
Adrienne Farricelli Posted January 25, 2022 Posted January 25, 2022 That's very nice to hear about Esther's improvement! Keep up the great work! Impulse control training can really help a lot on so many levels. The black splotches are likely proof of her chow inheritance, although I have heard from some that it's not easily a trait passed from one generation to another, while others say it's dominant and easily inherited (when crossed with different breeds). It seems complicated to understand genetics, but fascinating nonetheless! I hope you get to finish up the trail soon, I too had issues with solar lights. You'd figure with all the sunshine in Arizona they would work at peak performance-but um, no.
JMFS Posted February 16, 2022 Author Posted February 16, 2022 Well, she got to see firsthand the fighting. We went about 4 months, I think, without a fight. It's just too exciting with the trainer there and her super good treats. The girls were under the table, I don't remember where Leah was, and I was sitting in the corner with Esther. My best guess is Esther pushed Gertie one too many times and Gertie snapped then a fight ensued. This time, though, Gertie got the better of Esther before we pulled them apart. Leah did the wheelbarrow with Gerts and Esther kept trying to lunge towards Gertie. Esther was tethered to me, though, so she wasn't going anywhere. Esther ended up with a couple small abrasions - one below her eye and one further down her cheek. Gertie was fine. Esther is showing her street cred with her tear drop scab! Leah's assessment was that Esther had nowhere to escape to so it was all fight. Esther was in the corner with me while also being leashed to me and with them being under the table it was even more confining. She wasn't overly concerned as both girls showed restraint and each could have greatly harmed the other but did not. She advised to keep the rest of the day calm so they could decompress so I put Esther in her kennel with a treat and Gertie on their bed with a treat so they didn't have to be near each other for a couple hours. The Drop training, Patel style, is going well. Esther is picking up on the cue and I think we're just about ready to step it up a notch. I'm still using her morning meal and am keeping my eye out for chicken to be back on the shelves. Muzzle training is going well, too. We had to remodel it a bit. Instead of waiting for 5+ seconds and excitedly taking it off her I'm slowly taking it away at 3 or maybe 2 or maybe I do wait until 5+, etc . . .. She gets a whole Ziwi Peak if I give the treat while her nose is in the muzzle and a quarter of one if I give it outside of the muzzle. After muzzle training she gets to do a search game outside with treats scattered all over the patio. The idea is kind of like when we get the brussels sprouts eaten we can have dessert - do the least favorable / hardest things out of the way so the rest of the day is fun / easy. We'll work up to moving into the yard eventually but for now that's a no go because we have 3 hawks and 2 owls who keep dropping all manner of disgusting things in the yard that the girls are excited about. We have 1/3 acre of carcasses it seems some days - it's basically a bone yard! She's still pulling on the leash but not nearly as much. I made a potty station near the "trail" and that's helped a bit with expectation. I have a scoop with a bag on it out there to keep it clean and I don't have to walk half a mile to go dump it each time - that was messing with our cadence. I remove the bag before each trash day and dispose of it. No more hunting for things (well, I still kind of do because of the cataracts, but at least I know where to look now!). Gertie is mostly working on polite greetings. Esther isn't ready for that training, yet. We've worked Gerts up to knocks on the wall serving as a cue to lie down on the mat. The goal is to have her up to the door handle being rattled, maybe even the door opening, by the time Leah returns. Last Monday I almost packed Esther up and headed your way, lol. It was a bad bad day for us. She was 100 mph from the start of the day. My breaking point was when we were at the base of the stairs and she had a burst of energy for no reason I could discern. She kicked her porcelain feeding bowl and sent it flying. It broke in half and that was that for me. I was d.o.n.e. done! Almost wrote the husband a note: "taking Esther to Adrienne's, be back later. xoxo" Rofl! I am so busy with work right now that I have half a mind to send Esther to a boot camp, but I don't trust everyone's methods. You or Leah are the only ones I would feel confident with and Leah doesn't have the space (and she has 3 dogs, 2 of which are dog aggressive). Hope all is well in your corner of the world!
Adrienne Farricelli Posted February 22, 2022 Posted February 22, 2022 "Well, she got to see firsthand the fighting. We went about 4 months, I think, without a fight. It's just too exciting with the trainer there and her super good treats. The girls were under the table, I don't remember where Leah was, and I was sitting in the corner with Esther. My best guess is Esther pushed Gertie one too many times and Gertie snapped then a fight ensued. This time, though, Gertie got the better of Esther before we pulled them apart. Leah did the wheelbarrow with Gerts and Esther kept trying to lunge towards Gertie. Esther was tethered to me, though, so she wasn't going anywhere. Esther ended up with a couple small abrasions - one below her eye and one further down her cheek. Gertie was fine. Esther is showing her street cred with her tear drop scab! Leah's assessment was that Esther had nowhere to escape to so it was all fight. Esther was in the corner with me while also being leashed to me and with them being under the table it was even more confining. She wasn't overly concerned as both girls showed restraint and each could have greatly harmed the other but did not. She advised to keep the rest of the day calm so they could decompress so I put Esther in her kennel with a treat and Gertie on their bed with a treat so they didn't have to be near each other for a couple hours." In lieu of this setback, on the positive side you had an expert observe the interaction and intervene and then provide suggestions on how to help them destress. I am glad to hear Gertie was fine and Esther had only a few scrapes. Out of this, I guess the teaching lesson here is to work around an area with more open space. The Drop training, Patel style, is going well. Esther is picking up on the cue and I think we're just about ready to step it up a notch. I'm still using her morning meal and am keeping my eye out for chicken to be back on the shelves. Muzzle training is going well, too. We had to remodel it a bit. Instead of waiting for 5+ seconds and excitedly taking it off her I'm slowly taking it away at 3 or maybe 2 or maybe I do wait until 5+, etc . . .. She gets a whole Ziwi Peak if I give the treat while her nose is in the muzzle and a quarter of one if I give it outside of the muzzle. After muzzle training she gets to do a search game outside with treats scattered all over the patio. The idea is kind of like when we get the brussels sprouts eaten we can have dessert - do the least favorable / hardest things out of the way so the rest of the day is fun / easy. We'll work up to moving into the yard eventually but for now that's a no go because we have 3 hawks and 2 owls who keep dropping all manner of disgusting things in the yard that the girls are excited about. We have 1/3 acre of carcasses it seems some days - it's basically a bone yard! Sounds great! I am not surprised to hear she's doing so well with the Patel-style drop. With the muzzle training, sounds like baby steps and gradually raising criteria is helping. Also, yes, mixing and matching longer and shorter duration reps as done with stays helps since the dog doesn't recognize a pattern of the exercise getting increasingly difficult. Yup, you're describing perfectly the Premack principle, also known as Grandma's Law of "eat your broccoli first and then you can have ice-cream!" She's still pulling on the leash but not nearly as much. I made a potty station near the "trail" and that's helped a bit with expectation. I have a scoop with a bag on it out there to keep it clean and I don't have to walk half a mile to go dump it each time - that was messing with our cadence. I remove the bag before each trash day and dispose of it. No more hunting for things (well, I still kind of do because of the cataracts, but at least I know where to look now!). Gertie is mostly working on polite greetings. Esther isn't ready for that training, yet. We've worked Gerts up to knocks on the wall serving as a cue to lie down on the mat. The goal is to have her up to the door handle being rattled, maybe even the door opening, by the time Leah returns. Sounds like a great plan! It would be great if Gerts could do that in presence of Leah, she will be impressed! Maybe after a bit once the whole novelty of her being there has weaned off a bit. Last Monday I almost packed Esther up and headed your way, lol. It was a bad bad day for us. She was 100 mph from the start of the day. My breaking point was when we were at the base of the stairs and she had a burst of energy for no reason I could discern. She kicked her porcelain feeding bowl and sent it flying. It broke in half and that was that for me. I was d.o.n.e. done! Almost wrote the husband a note: "taking Esther to Adrienne's, be back later. xoxo" Rofl! I am so busy with work right now that I have half a mind to send Esther to a boot camp, but I don't trust everyone's methods. You or Leah are the only ones I would feel confident with and Leah doesn't have the space (and she has 3 dogs, 2 of which are dog aggressive). Hope all is well in your corner of the world! Aww, thank you for the kind words! You are right to be concerned about training methods, especially those that advertise as boot camp, which more likely than not, involves using old and often aversive methods. Honestly, I see not much value of board and training for certain behavior issues such as dogs fighting in the household other than marginally working on replacement behaviors/impulse control (which will need to continue being implemented once back home). This is because there's so much hands-on needed in these cases due to the amount of management required, identifying the antecedents (triggers) that evoke the fights and providing the recommended course of action based on the behavior consultant's observations in the dog's home environment. On top of that, after several weeks of being apart, it would be necessary to take several steps to gradually reintegrate the dogs to prevent any added stress. I really wish Esther improves and things become more manageable in the near future for you. She is young so these bursts of energy are not unusual, sometimes they may be diet-related (some foods/ treats may cause more hyper behaviors) other times, it's just their joy of life, a way to de-stress, or just a need to get rid of some excess energy. It can feel overwhelming at times, sort of like working with toddlers, and we certainly deserve cutting some time for ourselves when things get a little too much.
JMFS Posted March 14, 2022 Author Posted March 14, 2022 Soooo, we went out for our normal Friday evening Date Night. We returned a couple hours later to Esther having eaten part of the floor. She could have just Told us she didn't like the decor . . .. Now we have: 12 x 24 LVP tiles that are intended for wet areas most LVP is Not and water will seep between the grooves 24" high PVC sheeting on the wall at one point she was starting to lick the drywall and I managed to get her to stop that, but Just in case the walls were getting filthy from the Wobbler and her slurping up the kibble that landed next to the wall Baseboard Small enough, we hope, to dissuade her from chewing it up caulked under the baseboard caulked around the baseboard PVC stops on top of the sheeting the sheeting doesn't cut evenly the stops are So cute, especially with how my husband picture framed the corners I can imagine kiddos playing up here after we sell the house. A little table and chairs for tea parties! Total cost for the two is ~$400. We didn't go cheap this time. The flooring was $275 and the pvc sheeting $83 with our construction and Lowe's Amex discounts. The husband provided free labor, lol. Fingers crossed! By the time we find a dog-proof solution we'll have a back up plan for work if the Real Estate market plummets again, haha. I want to move my desk to the area, but alas it's far too large, haha. It's a little quieter and feels cozy. We're looking for a better gate, but it's Really tough to find one that fits a 44" opening. Most go to about 40" or 42" maximum. She's chewed most of the plastic off the current gate. Gertie's kennel will get only the tile and baseboard because she only eats in there and doesn't make a mess. Leah did tell me about a trainer here who uses the same methods and can board train. Our thought is to get Esther the basics (nice loose leash, polite greetings, recall) so that Leah and I can then dig our heels in to work on the real issues. I'm at capacity, over really, with work, home, and health right now. I haven't been able to do more than 15 minutes of training with the girls each week and my patience level is at an all-time low, which is not a good combination with Esther's issues. I want to do right by her, so I'm looking at all possible options. We're not even sure the trainer will take her with the aggression issues. The husband keeps saying we just need to take her to a park and let her mingle so we're split on that front, which doesn't help. He thinks she's magically going to get along with all the other dogs, and I'm not willing to take the chance. Leah explained to him what's likely going on with Esther when she sees other dogs, but he's just unable to believe dogs can't get along with other dogs. It's a wee bit challenging over here these days! She would have gone through the tv last night if he hadn't been holding her collar. There was a dog tied out, lying down and whimpering, that was rescued from its yard. It was a calm scene, but Esther jumped up at the sound, then at the sight she squared her body, tail went straight in the air, and a series of loud barks were followed by softer growls and then alternating growls and whines. Husband paused the show, dog was visible in the backseat of a car, I told him to turn the tv off (as Leah has told us to do but he only ever pauses, gah!). After the tv was off she started settling and once she was lying down again I took her to her crate in our bedroom, gave her a bully stick, closed the bedroom door, and we finished our show. She barked from the time she finished the bully to about 5 minutes before the show was over. The dog was out of the show 15 seconds after I removed Esther, and no more dogs appeared. We've had her almost a year and she's made leaps and bounds with her confidence and no longer cowering or submissively peeing, so I have to give her credit there. We've had maybe 3 accidents in the last 2 months and I'm starting to suspect the Rock Rose and Plum Cherry in the Rescue Remedy may have something to do with that. No more Proin, no more Incurin. She's been off those medications for 2 months now. Her leash manners are moderately better, but her impulse control is practically non-existent. We've been practicing polite sits at the door, and after exiting the door, and it's like every day it's a brand new thing I'm asking her to do. Short term memory for sure on this girl, yet she's flipping brilliant! Everything goes in her mouth, still. I kid you not when I say in the span of time it takes me to go downstairs, fill a glass of water, and come back upstairs she'll have torn up 2 envelopes and swallowed half of one. As long as someone is up here with her she's okay (better with me than not), but left to her own devices she's destructive and nervous. I need a doggy vacation! She's such a loving puppy, despite all her issues. Once she's accepted you, you're part of her clan and can do no wrong. She adores Leah now, where initially she was Not feeling this intruder At All. I know she can be helped, I'm just overwhelmed with umpteen other things in addition to her. So sorry for the woe-is-me, lol. Hopefully the next update will be filled with positive remarks! I hope all is well in your world!
Adrienne Farricelli Posted March 15, 2022 Posted March 15, 2022 Soooo, we went out for our normal Friday evening Date Night. We returned a couple hours later to Esther having eaten part of the floor. She could have just Told us she didn't like the decor . . .. Oh, wow, looks like she had fun redecorating your floor! I am not surprised though... last 8-month old dog I trained/boarded managed to chew through some tiles in a sneaky way. Like I would give him a Kong to work on, and in the midst of that, perhaps when he struggled a bit getting something out, he would redirect and start nibbling on the tile. I didn't notice that right away, only noticed after the fact. I am talking about ceramic tiles here! He focused mostly on the spaces between the tiles removing the whatever material that is, but he also left visible teeth marks on the side of the actual tile. One day we did some "look at that dog" exercises while sitting on a sidewalk passively watching dogs walk by, and I caught him for like a split second trying to chew the edge of the sidewalk! This guy would chew the craziest things! The Kong Wobbler I told his owner outlived my Rottweilers? He managed to almost make a hole in it, he filled it with so many teeth marks making it thinner and thinner with time. He was the first dog I knew to be able to open a Kong Wobbler with his teeth as he persistently chewed on it. An extra thick gauge metal chain leash though worked great for his leash-chewing habit, too bad the leash would slip and hurt my hand if I tried to shorten it for some reason on walks. Owner though was happy with this solution because this dog's leash chewing took place only when walking from the house to the gate, so then he would swap for the regular leash with no problems as all this dog wanted to do once past the gate was to urine mark and sniff, as the good intact boy he was! We're looking for a better gate, but it's Really tough to find one that fits a 44" opening. Most go to about 40" or 42" maximum. She's chewed most of the plastic off the current gate. You may have to look for companies that make customized pet gates, I think a colleague of mine had one recently custom-made from Etsy. Worth taking a look googling customized pet gates. You likely need one made of sturdy, chew-proof materials. Leah did tell me about a trainer here who uses the same methods and can board train. If you have *temporary* time constraints and need help with her obedience (and maybe want to go a bit on vacation too), board and train can then help with that, as long as though the work done in the facility can be continued afterward. I have seen sadly some board and trains fail because very busy dog owners struggle to keep up with the maintenance work needed and they lose momentum. Like the dogs do great the first days, they are super impressed, but then the dog reverts to his usual behaviors. Some refresher drop-off days or follow-up lessons can help prevent that, but the work needs to be continued, especially critical during the first weeks. I think it's helpful for trainers to lay out the dog's new schedule to adhere to (possibly printing it out) so that a similar schedule can be followed once home. Transfer sessions upon pick-up are important. I like to do a two-three hour long briefing with the owner watching what I do, then shadowing me, and then implementing the exercises in my presence. They are also provided with several handouts and videos of the work done to motivate them to keep up the work done. They can refer to that to remember the exact mechanics. This doesn't have to be a full-time ordeal, just here and there daily maintenance. For some cases, it may be better, rather than having the owner pick up the dog, the dog being dropped off at the owners' home. With behavior issues, some of them can be tackled as well during board and train, but there are risks for relapses if they have a strong rehearsal history in the home (certain habits area very cue/contextual) or there is something causing underlying anxiety at their home (like fear of certain noises in the home, stress of being around children, another pet they are in conflict with). As you know, dogs aren't that great in generalizing training (we see that when dogs respond to training cues well at home and then struggle on walks), therefore once they go back to their old rehearsal places, muscle memory may kick in and they'll be likely to resume practicing the old behaviors. Steps to prevent these relapses include not allowing the dog to practice the behavior (through management) until it will be possible to implement the necessary number of reps to maintain/ attain some substantial behavior changes. If the board and training is done in a home (versus a kennel-like facility) then the trainer can also work on things like barking at the TV, and experimenting on different ways to keep the dog under threshold, (always force-free of course if you got to a force-free trainer) and methods to reduce the behavior. So on the positive side, I feel the Esther can be helped in a board and train scenario at least marginally (if your main concern is the fights with Gertie) by inserting various good behaviors and better impulse control in her behavior repertoire, and then applying those in your home. The trainer can certainly lay a foundation of training that can be followed up once home. In your case Esther and Gertie may benefit from a cooling off period, but, and this is big BUT, as mentioned, my biggest concern would be successfully reintegrating Esther with Gertie after being away from each other for some time. We never know what can happen in this case, with the worst case scenario, the formation of a new negative response, possibly in Gertie who may have felt relief with Esther being away. Finally, we need to consider that training can be only helpful to some extent in households with dogs with a history of fighting. The beefy part and ultimate goal of working on these issues is behavior modification (changing the dog's emotional responses towards each other) and gradually increasing their tolerance and coping skills. It's also important understanding that board and training isn't a cure-all that will magically dissipate all of the dog's issues. Dogs with a history of fighting may go through a honeymoon period after a board and train, but issues may flare-up again especially on days a dog may not be feeling well, is tired or stressed. I am sure you are aware of this, just posting this for those who may be reading and considering board and training. Most trainers will point this out in any case beforehand, unless it's one of those shady board and training programs where they make promises and guarantees. It's against the code of ethics of several dog trainer associations and organizations to offer guarantees on the outcome of a dog's behaviors. Our thought is to get Esther the basics (nice loose leash, polite greetings, recall) so that Leah and I can then dig our heels in to work on the real issues. I'm at capacity, over really, with work, home, and health right now. I haven't been able to do more than 15 minutes of training with the girls each week and my patience level is at an all-time low, which is not a good combination with Esther's issues. I want to do right by her, so I'm looking at all possible options. We're not even sure the trainer will take her with the aggression issues. Ok, now that you have provided more details about your plan, it sounds like Leah would then help take over, so to work on the issue more directly. So maybe this can work out, especially if she can be there the day of reintegration or even better if the trainer doing the board and training can be there too, just so everybody is on the same page. I still think though that a consult with a board-certified veterinary behaviorist may be the best option. There are several great ones in Florida like Lisa Radosta. She can conduct a thorough medical examination and behavior assessment and offer her insights on how to best work on the issue, possibly alongside your trainer. I think she does home visits too based on some of her reviews. Here are some other DACVB in Florida: https://www.dacvb.org/search/search.asp?txt_state=Florida The husband keeps saying we just need to take her to a park and let her mingle so we're split on that front, which doesn't help. He thinks she's magically going to get along with all the other dogs, and I'm not willing to take the chance. Leah explained to him what's likely going on with Esther when she sees other dogs, but he's just unable to believe dogs can't get along with other dogs. I must admit there have been cases where dogs going to the park got better. What did these dogs have in common? Rather than being truly dog aggressive, they simply had barrier frustration. These are the dogs who growled, lunged and acted angry when they saw other dogs on leash, but once off the leash, they were having the fun of their lives. This is really the only exception I can think of. Dogs who don't have good social skills, dogs who have a history of getting into fights, dogs who are possessive over toys, food or owners, dog who are fearful or have poor bite inhibition and dogs who don't have a good recall are not good dog park candidates. I am sure Leah explained this well, even better than me since she has worked directly with Esther. It's a wee bit challenging over here these days! She would have gone through the tv last night if he hadn't been holding her collar. There was a dog tied out, lying down and whimpering, that was rescued from its yard. It was a calm scene, but Esther jumped up at the sound, then at the sight she squared her body, tail went straight in the air, and a series of loud barks were followed by softer growls and then alternating growls and whines. Husband paused the show, dog was visible in the backseat of a car, I told him to turn the tv off (as Leah has told us to do but he only ever pauses, gah!). After the tv was off she started settling and once she was lying down again I took her to her crate in our bedroom, gave her a bully stick, closed the bedroom door, and we finished our show. She barked from the time she finished the bully to about 5 minutes before the show was over. The dog was out of the show 15 seconds after I removed Esther, and no more dogs appeared. Wow, that's quite intense! Have you worked on this with Leah in any way? Like trying ways to keep her under threshold? Calming aids? Distance from the TV? Hear that method using recordings? Using a small screen first (like an iphone, then computer screen)? Look at That exercises using the smacking sound? Open bar/closed Bar? In this case, open TV, close TV maybe? Or is she is so hyper-aroused that no threshold can be found? If that's the case, this is where a veterinary behaviorist can turn helpful. Sometimes, we may work on the issue, we see progress, but then we stop holding refresher sessions and things just slide and revert back to their original form. Or maybe we had progress, but then the dog rehearsed barking and lunging from a window and then the behavior made a comeback with the TV. Could that have been the case? The barking after she finished the bully stick could have been simply from her wanting to be back in the family room. Unless she heard noises from the TV that made her think there were still dogs on the screen. We've had her almost a year and she's made leaps and bounds with her confidence and no longer cowering or submissively peeing, so I have to give her credit there. We've had maybe 3 accidents in the last 2 months and I'm starting to suspect the Rock Rose and Plum Cherry in the Rescue Remedy may have something to do with that. No more Proin, no more Incurin. She's been off those medications for 2 months now. You have really worked hard on these issues, and I am happy that she's no longer on meds. You have done a wonderful job in helping her overcome her cowering and submissive peeing. This is not easy, and you have learned so much from her! I call these dogs "teacher dogs," they can be a handful at times, but they really get us thinking and troubleshooting. One of the best parts, is that these "problem childs" are often blessed with a superior intelligence as you have already noticed. This last dog that chewed through the tiles, learned tricks in a matter of hours versus days. He only needed a little guidance and then took the matter in his "paws" proudly showing me that he understood. Her leash manners are moderately better, but her impulse control is practically non-existent. I think you are on the right path with her leash training, but I suspect what you are missing is the time. And if you are not feeling well, that can really put a dent into the whole training. Here's the thing, daily or even twice a day walks can make all the difference. If I skip a walk or two with a dog in training, I can immediately sense a difference. The more days in between, the greater the difference. And when I am saying walks, I mean to start in quiet areas and then progress more and more so to expand generalizing to different places. This is hard work, and I know when dogs pull hard, it can be really demotivating, especially going to public places. With service dog training, where you need impeccable loose leash walking, this often means driving daily to a variety of places, practicing with other dog owners, going to the city, flea markets, pet stores, perimeter walks by dog parks, etc. However, in your case, you have the extra hurdle of Esther not liking dogs, so behavior modification needs to come first. Once the emotional response is ameliorated, and she's better under control, it becomes easier to work at an operant level (actual training). We've been practicing polite sits at the door, and after exiting the door, and it's like every day it's a brand new thing I'm asking her to do. Short term memory for sure on this girl, yet she's flipping brilliant! Hmmm. not sure what is happening here. Is she not sitting before opening the door? What happens after exiting the door? Maybe I am not understanding the exercise. I usually ask for a sit before opening the door, have the dog hold a sit/stay as the door is open and then give permission for the dog to exit and join me in the yard. Everything goes in her mouth, still. I kid you not when I say in the span of time it takes me to go downstairs, fill a glass of water, and come back upstairs she'll have torn up 2 envelopes and swallowed half of one. As long as someone is up here with her she's okay (better with me than not), but left to her own devices she's destructive and nervous. I need a doggy vacation I feel for you! Sounds like you're dealing with the typical chewy, bored teenager. With these dogs you can't leave much stuff around. It often takes stripping the home and keeping the bare essentials, until they become more reliable. I feel though that you are well-equipped to deal with this. Reminds me of your very first post in 2018, with Gertie stealing things from your desk. I deduce that Gertie has now grown out of this habit, no? She's such a loving puppy, despite all her issues. Once she's accepted you, you're part of her clan and can do no wrong. She adores Leah now, where initially she was Not feeling this intruder At All. I know she can be helped, I'm just overwhelmed with umpteen other things in addition to her. So sorry for the woe-is-me, lol. Hopefully the next update will be filled with positive remarks! I hope all is well in your world! I am sure sure Esther is a lovey-dovey dog! I just can sense you are tired with so much going on. It's very trying juggling work, family time, not feeling too well, and a household with multiple pets, especially with dogs in the teenager stage on top of all of that. I too have gone though the blues, especially when boarding an extra dog taken as a foster or some challenging dogs from the shelter for training. There are moments where you feel like there is just so much chaos and not much hope. You just see bad behavior after bad behavior unfold. Often times though, right behind the corner things start getting better. You see a desired behavior unfold and then more and some more and these expand, gradually taking over the non-desirable ones. I hope that's the case with you and Esther. Keep me posted! Best, Adrienne
JMFS Posted March 24, 2022 Author Posted March 24, 2022 I took everything into consideration and made a plan from there. On Tuesday they'll pick her up. They're going to work on the things I haven't had time to instill (leave, touch, loose leash, muzzle). They predict 3 weeks, I think it will be longer. 1st week is intensive training using science-based force free (hooray!) methods. If she's ready then the 2nd week will be socialization work which will include trips to pet-friendly places and we can go watch her in action. The 3rd week will be non-pet friendly places. This will be interesting . . .. They have miniature horses, too, that they train for service animal duty. She Was going to go with them this Tuesday, but guess who got sick because Everything goes in her mouth?! Gertie had outgrown that phase by now. Esther is, by far, the mouthiest dog I've ever met. I had to scoop a bunch of wet leaves out of her mouth, and retrieved a lava rock (mulch) from her mouth, before we left for my cataract assessment and the veterinarian's office Monday. Surgery next month, hooray! Being able to see will have an impact on my workload. Currently my eyes are so bad that they're slowing me down significantly. I can't tell a 6 from a 8 from a 5 more often than I care to address. Not a good thing since my biggest function is as our finance person! Esther started throwing up Wednesday - Friday and I chalked it up to getting worked up over anticipating dinner because it was at dinner time, clear with a slight green tint, and only once. Saturday it was more than once so I took away food. Sunday afternoon and evening she got chicken and rice. No more vomiting, but we went to the vet, just in case. She's on antibiotics and an antiemetic as a precaution, as well as Royal Canin gastro food. I got "the talk" about training her to wear a muzzle, and I let them know we're working on it but it's slow going because she has to love the thing if it's going to be a useful tool. The more I see her react to other dogs the more I'm suspecting it's a barrier frustration. After she comes home to us they'll do a session to show us what she's learned, and how to handle situations with their training. This is going to be weird! They include 6 weeks of training with the board and train package so we can work with them to reinforce what she's learned. They're not going to just send her off and wish us luck, whew! Leah and I will continue to work with Gertie on polite greetings so I can take her places without her devolving into wiggle butt mode. I think Gertie won't be the only one relieved to have an Esther break. Her energy is so chaotic at times and it will be nice to have a vacation from that. I adore her, but sometimes I just need a breather! Oh, the sit at the door. I touch the door handle, she's supposed to sit. I open the door and start moving outside, she's supposed to hold the sit. This is where she starts trying to follow, despite plenty of slack in the leash. I have a chair by the door that I can use with my body to block her from rushing out. When she breaks the sit I say, "uh oh," then close the door and reset the exercise. When we get outside she's to sit next to the door (the space the chair and my body are creating). She sits wonderfully, but as soon as I begin to move Up she goes. Both girls are scanning the yard instead of looking at me and both of them are otherwise good at looking at me. Outside is just too exciting with all the smells and sounds, even though there's no activity. Not that I can see anyway, but I'm flying pretty blind these days, lol. With the leash training - we don't really go out into the neighborhood because everyone has dogs. She's just too much for me right now. We do walks in our yard and she's beginning to ignore the neighbors' dogs across the street, but the neighbors right next to us rarely have their dogs out so when they are present it's Quite exciting for Esther. Her threshold is at ground level. We had guys here today working on the irrigation and she was pulling my husband towards them. He didn't let her get her way while she was pulling (u-turns!) and they Slowly made their way to the guys. Once she was over there she sniffed them, then let them pet her. He said she ignored them after that. I have to keep reminding myself how far she's come. When she first came home any sudden movement would cause her to cower and pee. Now it makes her want to jump and play. Somewhere in the middle would be nice! She's still quite skittish and suspicious of new things, but her confidence has grown significantly for the most part.
Adrienne Farricelli Posted March 25, 2022 Posted March 25, 2022 I took everything into consideration and made a plan from there. On Tuesday they'll pick her up. They're going to work on the things I haven't had time to instill (leave, touch, loose leash, muzzle). They predict 3 weeks, I think it will be longer. 1st week is intensive training using science-based force free (hooray!) methods. If she's ready then the 2nd week will be socialization work which will include trips to pet-friendly places and we can go watch her in action. The 3rd week will be non-pet friendly places. This will be interesting . . .. They have miniature horses, too, that they train for service animal duty. Sounds like a thorough plan! So great that you were able to find a place that does board and training using science-based force-free methods! I hope they'll help with the re-integration process too. She Was going to go with them this Tuesday, but guess who got sick because Everything goes in her mouth?! Gertie had outgrown that phase by now. Esther is, by far, the mouthiest dog I've ever met. I had to scoop a bunch of wet leaves out of her mouth, and retrieved a lava rock (mulch) from her mouth, before we left for my cataract assessment and the veterinarian's office Monday. Surgery next month, hooray! Being able to see will have an impact on my workload. Currently my eyes are so bad that they're slowing me down significantly. I can't tell a 6 from a 8 from a 5 more often than I care to address. Not a good thing since my biggest function is as our finance person! Esther started throwing up Wednesday - Friday and I chalked it up to getting worked up over anticipating dinner because it was at dinner time, clear with a slight green tint, and only once. Saturday it was more than once so I took away food. Sunday afternoon and evening she got chicken and rice. No more vomiting, but we went to the vet, just in case. She's on antibiotics and an antiemetic as a precaution, as well as Royal Canin gastro food. I got "the talk" about training her to wear a muzzle, and I let them know we're working on it but it's slow going because she has to love the thing if it's going to be a useful tool. The more I see her react to other dogs the more I'm suspecting it's a barrier frustration. After she comes home to us they'll do a session to show us what she's learned, and how to handle situations with their training. This is going to be weird! They include 6 weeks of training with the board and train package so we can work with them to reinforce what she's learned. They're not going to just send her off and wish us luck, whew! Leah and I will continue to work with Gertie on polite greetings so I can take her places without her devolving into wiggle butt mode. Whew, glad they do offer support immediately afterwards and ongoing assistance as needed. Guarantees can never be made on the outcome of training, but the ability to follow up and get ongoing support is important. Then, you also have Leah which is reassuring! I think Gertie won't be the only one relieved to have an Esther break. Her energy is so chaotic at times and it will be nice to have a vacation from that. I adore her, but sometimes I just need a breather! Oh, the sit at the door. I touch the door handle, she's supposed to sit. I open the door and start moving outside, she's supposed to hold the sit. This is where she starts trying to follow, despite plenty of slack in the leash. I have a chair by the door that I can use with my body to block her from rushing out. When she breaks the sit I say, "uh oh," then close the door and reset the exercise. When we get outside she's to sit next to the door (the space the chair and my body are creating). She sits wonderfully, but as soon as I begin to move Up she goes. Both girls are scanning the yard instead of looking at me and both of them are otherwise good at looking at me. Outside is just too exciting with all the smells and sounds, even though there's no activity. Not that I can see anyway, but I'm flying pretty blind these days, lol. I see... that's a common issue. They are so used to following us when they are on leash it's just hard for them to resist the instinct. Add to that the tempting stuff outdoors. In such a case, I would work on stays off leash, starting with me on the side of the dog, saying stay with my open hand and practicing moving forward one step, then returning into place praising and treating, then two steps then three step etc. If the dog struggles with the first step, it's split into more baby steps, me just leaning forward versus one step, then me making an attempted leg movement, slowly shaping (adding successive approximations) of the whole step. Then, we practice the same on leash, then closer to the door, then with the dog up until we can exit without the dog following us. If we think about, we think of our verbal and hand cues as info telling what our dogs need to do, but they are also environmental cues happening all the time and our dogs attend to that, and that can create challenges. In this case, the leash with our body moving forward are strong environmental cues telling our dogs to move forward. Some dogs just need a stay reminder as they get confused whether they should follow or not. With the leash training - we don't really go out into the neighborhood because everyone has dogs. She's just too much for me right now. We do walks in our yard and she's beginning to ignore the neighbors' dogs across the street, but the neighbors right next to us rarely have their dogs out so when they are present it's Quite exciting for Esther. Her threshold is at ground level. We had guys here today working on the irrigation and she was pulling my husband towards them. He didn't let her get her way while she was pulling (u-turns!) and they Slowly made their way to the guys. Once she was over there she sniffed them, then let them pet her. He said she ignored them after that. I have to keep reminding myself how far she's come. When she first came home any sudden movement would cause her to cower and pee. Now it makes her want to jump and play. Somewhere in the middle would be nice! She's still quite skittish and suspicious of new things, but her confidence has grown significantly for the most part. Yes, she has come a long way with all your help and dedication! I surely remember all the initial struggles with her not liking to be touched! Overall, it sounds like your hubby did a good job in getting her to greet the guys on a loose leash. Often, they just want to break the ice and say hi and then it's all good and they are back to calm. I always take advantage of repair people or other visitors for training. I hope all works out well for you and that you'll be able to successfully pick up the training from there. Keep us posted on her progress! Best, Adrienne 1
JMFS Posted March 28, 2022 Author Posted March 28, 2022 Tomorrow at noon they pick her up. She cleared the exam today, got her rabies booster, leptosis, and distemper shots. Turns out there's a new shot for heartworm that lasts 6 months to 1 year, so I got the 6-month dose done and she'll just take Nexguard or something for fleas. All-in-all, though, she's ready to go. And godspeed to them because a lady had a puppy outside as we were leaving and Esther was Really trying to get to the puppy. High pitched shrieking, low to the ground paddling her way as best she could. Then the lady lost control of the puppy (why it was Not on a leash next to a 50 mph highway is beyond me) and it ran towards us. I pulled Esther to the other side of my truck, and she was kicking up all the rocks they have for pavement, so she couldn't see the puppy, but darn if that puppy didn't keep making it into our view. I had my hands full with receipts and her new flea chew so I was fumbling along the best I could. I finally got Esther into the truck, the lady got the puppy (it thankfully ran towards us instead of towards the highway) and that was that. I gave her a good flirt pole session to discharge that energy and that girl is Still awake, staring at me as I type. As I said, godspeed, lol. I don't know that they're believing me with the severity of this child's issues.
Adrienne Farricelli Posted March 29, 2022 Posted March 29, 2022 There always has to be the random owner who loses control of their dog at the most inconvenient times! Glad though that the puppy decided to move towards you and Esther and not the road full of traffic! You may have saved his/her life! Keep us posted on how things go! 1
JMFS Posted March 31, 2022 Author Posted March 31, 2022 I received the first video. They tackled her claws, which I have been unable to get to due to the cataracts (surgery in April!). She was definitely stiff and uncomfortable, but she was tolerating everything. She was possibly shut down to the experience as she was staring straight ahead, but not putting up a fight is a good thing. They did have her muzzled so my limited training there turned out helpful. They did say the size 3 is too small so I'm going to find a way to get them the size 4 that Lean and I thought was too big. I think she's an in betweeny. She was picked up with the trainer's dog, Gator, in the front seat. He completely ignored Esther and she didn't really notice him right away because she was being put into a crate in the back of an SUV. When she did notice Gator, and started barking, Stephanie observed the body language and Gator continued to ignore Esther. The observation was that the body was squared, but loose and her leg positioning was also giving more friendly signals than aggressive. When Esther couldn't get Gator's attention she turned back to us and immediately received praise from Stephanie. Esther tried for Gator's attention again, was denied, and praised once more. After that her attempts to engage Gator were less fervent. Oh, when Stephanie came into the house and Esther started barking at the yard guys Stephanie went straight into training mode and called Esther back and directed me, "no engagement." I was like, "huh?" Lol. She was firm, but neutral, and when Esther came to us there was plenty of praise. Maybe Esther's not as bad off as we thought, and perhaps our vantage point is skewed by being hit with it Every day and not having time to address it properly, in addition to being in new territory with her brand of issues. Time will tell. The way she was pulling me, and carrying on, over the puppy at the vet's office says we're not imagining her issues, but it could be my reaction that makes it worse. Try as I might to stay neutral in those situations I'm sure she can sense that I'm frustrated. Like children, they also behave differently when different people are in charge. Like you say, until dogs can talk, we can only guess. She's going to have 4 - 5 training sessions per day and will sleep in a crate in their house. That works well since that's where she sleeps in our house, too. She made an interesting point about the flirt pole, given Esther's breed mix and her prey drive. That dog is Hyper focused on the flirt pole. So much so that if I take her outside with it she won't even pee - and that's the Very first thing she normally does, usually barely making it to the grass if I'm not proactive about taking her before the need is too great. Putting 2 and 2 together now, I'm going back to that first day when Esther met the flirt pole and then attacked Abbi. Yes, Abbi started it, but Esther's prey drive was also heightened. Something to ponder, anyway. She'll be meeting chickens and miniature horses (they service train) as well as many other dogs. I'll update when I hear from them again. She said she'd be sending pictures and videos. If I don't hear anything tonight I'll be sure to ask for an update. Meanwhile, the energy in our house has definitely lightened. Gertie got 100% of Leah's attention today and we got in some Great training. She helped me troubleshoot some things I've been having issues with and she challenged me to move Gertie's training along a little faster. Instead of 1 baby step, take 2, maybe even 3, for example. She said I have a good sense of when to break it down further and I just need to trust my training a bit more. That's more accolades for you because you've taught me so very much over the years. Whether by responding to my own posts, or me reading your advice and guidance for others. 😊 Go us!
JMFS Posted March 31, 2022 Author Posted March 31, 2022 I forgot! I met your German twin sister! When this gal called my name at the eye doctor's office I started looking for you. Her tone, cadence, accent, pitch, all of it was just like yours! I had to ask her where she was from and then told her she has a twin in AZ, lol. Same hair length, though hers is blonde, and y'all even have some of the same movements (from the limited I've seen in your videos). I'm not sure about height, but it was so surreal.
Adrienne Farricelli Posted April 2, 2022 Posted April 2, 2022 Sounds like everything is proceeding nicely. Lack of time is one of the biggest challenges when it comes to training, especially when dogs go through the troubling adolescent stage. Yes, we can scatter training sessions in small segments here and there during the day, but some dogs are a work in progress and need more guidance. It can feel like a full-time job, your life revolving around them, and that can turn into a problem. So funny that you met my look-a-like at the eye doctor! I think we all must have some "twins" scattered around the globe.
JMFS Posted April 16, 2022 Author Posted April 16, 2022 Cataracts are gone and Oh Boy is the world bright! I feel like a vampire, retreating to darkened rooms, lol. The vision difference is incredible! I have a whiteboard 7 feet away that I used to have to use my phone camera to see so I could type information from it into my spreadsheet instead of having to go over there, hope I remember, then go back to the computer. I can see it Almost perfectly clearly now. It will take about a month to completely heal, but Wow - I can't get over how bad it had gotten! Esther is being kept for a 4th week, haha. I knew 3 weeks was a lofty goal! They Did get her on the treadmill, but she still requires a toy stuffed with peanut butter to do it. Still, that's a major achievement for her. Their assessment is that she's highly insecure, rather than being aggressive. She's been to her first social outing and did well. She met the miniature horse they have in the house and was barky at first, but soon learned it lived there. I need to ask how she's doing with the chickens . . .. There's a neighborhood cat who likes Esther, but she seems to have an issue with it. Odd since she is okay with Monkey. I wouldn't trust her alone with him like I do Gertie, but with a person there she behaves. Poor Monkey - he just wants to love and be loved, but all these dogs like to chase him. He grooms and rubs against Gertie, and she lays there and enjoys it, but if he starts to run or makes a jerky movement, even Gerts' prey drive kicks in. Gertie has learned how to wave, and is getting better at sitting on the mat while I fiddle with the door. Getting her to the mat is another thing. I'm going to have to go back a couple steps because I have to tell her mat now, where she was doing it on her own. I must have progressed too fast. Hope all is well here! Happy Easter. :)
Adrienne Farricelli Posted April 17, 2022 Posted April 17, 2022 Thanks for the update! So glad that you are able to see better already, and noticing such a big difference! Both my parents were told to get surgery and they are a bit worried about the surgery and recovery. They postponed their appointment due to covid cases going up again in Italy, but thinking of re-scheduling soon. I'll let them know how wonderful it feels to see well again. Seems like things are proceeding well with Esther! I agree that the term "aggressive" is tossed around too easily. It's a label and doesn't give us enough info on what is really going on with the dog. This umbrella term also gives the impression that dogs are dangerous, unpredictable and untrustworthy all of the time. Instead, most dogs who are labeled as being aggressive are only *acting* "aggressively" in specific contexts and situations. I like to tell my clients that, in dogs "aggressive" behaviors are often adaptive, meaning that they have a survival purpose and the purpose in this case is attaining a certain level of control over their environment and its associated events. This doesn't mean that dogs are taking every chance they can get to take control over us. It simply means that dogs may engage in *aggressive* behaviors so they can avoid certain things and attain others that make them feel safer. There is often an element of reinforcement playing a part in the background of dogs who are engaging in aggressive displays. For example, if a dog is fearful of men wearing hats, his barking and lunging keeps men with hats away and the dog soon learns that his behavior works so he'll be likely to engage in the same behavior next time in hopes of feeling that "relief" again. Same goes with dogs who "hate the mailman" or dogs who growl when in possession of something. This latter dog is likely telling the person or other dog something along the terms of "I don't trust you near my resource, now please back off!" Obtaining distance can be highly reinforcing to a dog who feels threatened by someone who risks taking his resource away. If we think about it, dogs often engage in natural behaviors that are actually meant to avoid aggression in the first place. In other words their "aggressive" displays are meant to actually avoid causing harm. The barking, growling and tooth displays are ways dogs are trying to inform other people or dogs about how they feel. They're a dog's plea to please listen to their feelings so they don't have to escalate their behavior to a potential bite. It's the canine version of a child "using his words." Ritualized aggression is often used to depict this. So I often ask clients to try to replace the term aggressive with something else. This makes us see things from a whole different perspective. So instead of saying "my dog is aggressive" using the word aggressive as an adjective, it triggers us to give a more descriptive picture of what's really going on such as "my dog acts aggressively" or "uses aggression" or "behaves aggressively" when he has a bone. This info can be further broken down by removing the term aggressive altogether and describing the aggressive behavior instead, as such: "My dog growls when he has a bone" or even better "my dog growls when he has a bone and I come close to him." We now have a clearer picture of what the dog is doing and in what circumstance the behavior is taking place. Smart Gertie seems to have learned to go to the mat at super speed! Going back a few steps where you can catch her before she gets there and can say your cue, should easily fix that. Happy training and Happy Easter to you too!
JMFS Posted April 18, 2022 Author Posted April 18, 2022 Oh, yes, do encourage them! It's an entirely new world out there for me. I was brave and did each eye within a week of the other. I did feel the first surgery a little. No pain, but there was discomfort as I felt everything sliding around - ewwww! I was a bit intrigued, a bit bemused, and a bit freaked, lol. They gave me extra Versed (like Valium or Xanax), where I was hoping they would just numb my eyes more - I don't like taking those drugs unless I Really need them (flying - definitely for flying, lol). It all worked out, though, and I didn't feel a thing on the second eye. Yesterday I was reading road signs off to my husband, something I haven't been able to do in a year or more. We're talking like those Huge numbers on gas station prices that I couldn't read. Gertie is coming right along with the mat. Leah arrives the first week of May for a session so we'll see how well Gerts does. Gertie was struggling with the doorbell so I separated it from the training altogether and did a ring, treat, ring, treat, ring, wait, treat, with lots of praise in between. It retained quite well for today's training and she had the added distraction of kids riding by on their bicycles. All bicycles must be chased, except when we're on leash, then they're tolerable. She also now offers waving in addition to turning around, bowing, and rolling over, when she's unsure of what the heck I want. 😆 1
JMFS Posted April 22, 2022 Author Posted April 22, 2022 She's staying a bit longer. They're starting BAT training with her from Grisha Stewart and said she's responding well. She wants to meet with us in public once Esther's gotten the hang of it so she can show us how to use the protocol. I'll be reading up about BAT later. I like the aggression information. It's true - she's not proactively aggressive, but she will react severely when faced with certain situations. It brings to mind the time I was wearing headphones so I could concentrate. A co-worker was trying to get my attention. Rather than moving into my field of view, he lifted one of the ear pieces from my head. I Snapped at him, "NO!" I never did live that down, lol. It stemmed from years of being teased from my brother. He would lift my ear piece and snap it back to my head. When this poor fellow touched them, he felt all that wrath. It's okay, though - he kind of deserved it. He was somewhat of a pain who tried to get me riled up (he also had a sister whom he tortured). He was slightly more cautious after that, which reinforced my behavior. :p All I had to do after that was raise my eyebrow at him.
Adrienne Farricelli Posted April 22, 2022 Posted April 22, 2022 BAT-behavior adjustment training, a bit controversial in the dog training world, but I have found its place for certain cases. We have a section on this here: https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/behavior-adjustment-training-bat/ 1
JMFS Posted April 22, 2022 Author Posted April 22, 2022 Good girl, "Cora!" So it's really not all that much different than what we're already doing. We're just teaching her to seek her comfort instead of removing the trigger, or allowing her to react to it negatively (in our minds, anyway). Which makes sense, because we can't influence the world around us like we want to, but we can teach our dogs coping mechanisms. I can't make the neighbor's barking puppies go inside when we're outside, but I can teach Esther that moving further away from them is rewarding, rather than running up to the fence to go nuts - which yields no reward. It makes me think of the emergency U-turn. Unless I'm misunderstanding, that is. To me it seems the timing is the trickiest part. And for that I'm glad I have a plethora of help. :)
Adrienne Farricelli Posted April 24, 2022 Posted April 24, 2022 On 4/22/2022 at 3:16 PM, JMFS said: Good girl, "Cora!" So it's really not all that much different than what we're already doing. We're just teaching her to seek her comfort instead of removing the trigger, or allowing her to react to it negatively (in our minds, anyway). Which makes sense, because we can't influence the world around us like we want to, but we can teach our dogs coping mechanisms. I can't make the neighbor's barking puppies go inside when we're outside, but I can teach Esther that moving further away from them is rewarding, rather than running up to the fence to go nuts - which yields no reward. It makes me think of the emergency U-turn. Unless I'm misunderstanding, that is. To me it seems the timing is the trickiest part. And for that I'm glad I have a plethora of help. 🙂 BAT is one of the things that you can put 100 dog trainers in one room and they'll all have different views about it. I had a Facebook group once where there was a big fight over BAT and had to close the thread because it was literally sizzling and ready to explode. Last discussion about BAT had members trying to define it and it led to hundreds of different opinions. Then there is BAT 1 and BAT 2. BAT 1 was highly criticized because many felt that it was unethical to put dogs into situations where the dog was over threshold or very close to tipping over and negative reinforcement was used. Basically, the dog was on a leash, facing the trigger (being put under a certain level of pressure) and was marked and reinforced with distance for using cut-off signals (like looking away, turning, sniffing etc). Grisha Stewart (the inventor or BAT) had to remedy lots of criticism on BAT 1 and therefore created BAT 2 where more distance is granted so the dog is less likely to be over threshold and can be helped in the least intrusive way possible to engage in replacement behaviors to be marked and reinforced with distance. It is sort of desensitization and teaching an alternate behavior, a bit of like the "look at that game" with the added twist where we have dogs observing other dogs at the window and then come back to us for a treat, only that in BAT we wait for a cut-off signal and reinforce that with distance, whereas in LAT we want the dog to acknowledge the trigger and come to us for a treat ( while he also gets distance). In a way it *can* be somewhat similar to the emergency U-turn for certain things like that we provide distance from the trigger, but in emergency U-turn we don't purposely put the dog into facing the trigger like in BAT 1 and wait for the dog to give out a cut-off signal to provide distance, but we turn at a distance ideally *before* the dog has a chance of noticing the trigger/feeling pressure, which is a bit more closer to BAT 2, but again, in the emergency U-turn we cue it whereas in BAT it is preferable to not cue if possible.
JMFS Posted April 24, 2022 Author Posted April 24, 2022 Lol, just like dogs, even the training methods have micro distinctions! I'll update when I've met with them to let you know how it's going. I know she's brilliant, so can do anything as long as the person teaching her knows what they're doing. She was just too complex for me (and the time constraints) so I'm happy that I have the ability to hire someone who has the ability to help her. <3 By the time we're through this she will be the cost of a fully-trained police dog, but it will be worth it because we'll know we are giving her a life where she can cope and live in peace (I hope!) rather than fearing, and reacting to, every little thing.
Adrienne Farricelli Posted April 24, 2022 Posted April 24, 2022 Yeah, there's a saying "The only thing two dog trainers can agree on is that the third trainer is wrong!" Grisha Sterwart offers also a Lazy Bones BAT in BAT 2 which is crafted for those who struggle with the timing or don't have the time to create setups (although this requires supervision). She calls it "passive training." You may be already familiar with this since it's a sort of way desensitization with a touch of counterconditioning. In a case like yours it would consist of providing the 'reactive dog" with a long-lasting food puzzle when out in the yard, where the dog is tethered using a harness and long leash in such a way to be kept away from the fence line so to be less over threshold. If the neighbor is willing, he/she would let the pups out strategically when the dog is tethered and given the food puzzle. The goal is for the dog to attend to the trigger but decide to go back eating, therefore preventing rehearsal of the barking to get the "other pups" to leave. The right distance is paramount, and therefore if the dog still barks, that would mean tethering more at a distance, possibly closer to the house or even starting inside. with the door open. If the dog shows signs of still wanting to bark, it is possible to cue her to "go get the toy" pointing at it to help make a good choice. Now, we must consider that likely after finishing the food puzzle the dog is likely to want to bark again, so we either have to strategically end the session then or be ready to provide another food puzzle. And we also need to manage other yard trips, meaning we are always with the dog on leash when taking out to potty and not allow unsupervised outings unless tethered and with the food puzzle. This is not a quick fix and can take several months for the dog to ignore the triggers, but if the behavior is fairly new it will take less. Once having reliable non-reactive responses for some tie, it is possible to fade the tether and switch to dragging a short leash on the collar, always under supervision. And then one can give less long food puzzles. Of course, there are no universal "recipes" that work for all dogs, so if a dog it too aroused he obviously won't eat and not all yards offer the luxury of granting enough distance. Some dogs also become more reactive when tethered, so all these individualities need to be taken into account. More active BAT training would consist of having the dog on leash at a distance with the collaboration of the neighbors having their dog on leash (taking turns if more than one before introducing together) and doing BAT setups first in more neutral areas (like on walks, then by the sidewalk, then areas with other fences that aren't the actual fence and then at a distance from the actual fence etc. ). I am not sure if the dogs really respond to these BAT setups or just happen to start getting acquainted with each other with the distance and seeing each other often for their "happy hour" 😉 Most likely, there is a mix into play, but we know that dog who become "friends" and share bonding experiences like walks are less likely to react towards each other.
JMFS Posted April 24, 2022 Author Posted April 24, 2022 We could actually use Gertie. Esther gets riled up even with Gertie at a distance! She's full of twists and turns for sure. I am with you - it's likely a combination. Over time it may come to be that the more dogs they get used to, the more new dogs they can handle. Or not. You just never know, and all we can do is try to prepare for successes. Quote Yeah, there's a saying "The only thing two dog trainers can agree on is that the third trainer is wrong!" I Love that saying! Thank goodness you and Leah agree. Y'all have very similar approaches and insights. I think the boarding trainer might be that third, lol. She takes on severe cases, though, so requires a different angle. The way I see it, I'm lucky to have three great minds helping with Esther! All those years of combined training and certifications for our little shelter pup. <3 If she only knew how good she has it!
Adrienne Farricelli Posted April 25, 2022 Posted April 25, 2022 It may be worth giving it a try! If the trainer who is doing board and training is certified in BAT even better. Yes, there are dog trainers even specialized in that, and they're called CBATI dog trainers (pronounced sea-batty).
JMFS Posted April 25, 2022 Author Posted April 25, 2022 She has these: CCPDT-KA, CTDI, IAABC-ADT One of these days I'm going to upload all the videos to my YouTube channel so I can share them here. Esther is still focused on other dogs, but she's no longer whining, pulling, or barking, and she can be called off. She can't break her own focus, yet, but she's getting close. In one video a Yorkie jumped towards her from a cart and she got distracted, but didn't go into her usual reaction mode. The Yorkie is out of the shot, but you can see Esther's "what's going on over there" reaction to it. Given that was in the pet store, we're proud of her keeping herself under that level of control. This girl just may get there after all! It will have only taken 3 trainers, and myself to do it, lol. Leah assures me I'm an excellent trainer and I should have more confidence in myself. Esther is just a tough nut to crack. I'm consistently being told to be more celebratory with the dogs - I guess I have carry over from the alpha style training and am kind of stern / serious with the training instead of fun. I predict Esther will be with them 6 weeks, maybe 7, before coming home. Her 4th week ends today - she went to them 1 week before my cataract surgery (I timed it all together - have to take advantage of these moments). Then they'll do the "owner's manual" training with us with the 6 follow up sessions. I love that they're not training her, then wishing us luck. Your advice about that was paramount to selecting them for Esther's training. ❤
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