Esther Shares, Gertie Does Not

Adrienne Farricelli · April 26, 2022

I am sure you have the skill! Hey, even dog trainers have dogs that are hard nuts to crack! When I went to school to become a dog trainer in Italy, (that was, before becoming a CPDT-KA), our instructor's dogs were mostly ill-behaved, me and others who were attending were all like, what happened to dogs being our "business cards?"

However, turned out she owned 7 dogs, and out of those 7, three were super stars, she just didn't have the time to train them all to that level. Understandable, because she was breeding, showing, training students and prospective dog trainers and then therapy dog work on the side taking her dogs to schools, children's hospitals etc. I always wondered how she was able to juggle all of that!

Grisha Sterwart had Peanut, her dog who needed to be deeply rehabilitated which inspired her to create BAT, even then, she still was facing some issues that she kept working on because those issues were so ingrained.

So I am sure you already looked the trainer's credentials up, so there's a trick title and then you have a behavior consultant title with IAABC. I love, love, love, IAABC and was debating whether getting that title too, but then decided to go with James O' Heares' Companion Animal Science Institute and slowly working my way towards getting a Dip. CBST title, only that I rarely have the time to study and keep postponing it. Wouldn't it be great to have 48 hour days?

I would love to see Esther's videos on her progress, but please make sure the trainer is OK with you posting them here.

I am happy that you will be getting the ongoing support, that is, IMO the most important feature to look for. It's good Esther is staying longer, my best results with board/train were with those who stayed the longest. The more the better so to train at a more fluent level and get better stimulus control, the extra weeks really make a difference!

JMFS · May 2, 2022

Esther comes home Saturday. We'll meet at a pet store to do some training so we learn how to help her in the world. Then we'll have 6 more sessions with them each Saturday after that. She said she's grown very fond of Esther, and the bottom line is that she's just a nervous and insecure puppy. The report before this one was that she encountered 3 unknown dogs at the pet store. She barked at the first one (so she's not 100%, but better) and ended up coughing up her treat, surprising herself. They said it was hilarious, and I can only imagine, lol. Single instance learning? Bark at a dog, lose your treat! 😆😆😆

It makes me feel better about my training, knowing that Esther truly was a severe case that needed extra care, structure, consistency, and knowledge. They've laid the groundwork, and now it's up to me (us, really, but the husband considers himself more dog than dog trainer, lol) to reinforce it.

Gertie now offers a wave before every meal - it's her new got-to, followed closely by bowing, and then spinning. I'm teaching her to pick up her bowl. So far I have her scooting it across the floor with her nose, which is an improvement on her slapping it with her paw and sending it flying up in the air (it's a Cool Whip container so no fear of breakage & easily replaced). I haven't been able to work on the front door for a couple weeks and Leah arrives Wednesday. I still think there will be progress evident because we did work on it pretty hard every day for 2½ weeks before whatever happened to make us stop. I can't recall why we took a break from the training, but we'd better get back to it!

Adrienne Farricelli · May 3, 2022

It must be so exciting getting Esther back! I thought they were keeping her longer, but maybe they are satisfied with her progress so far.

That's funny! The coughing up the treat-episode. When it happens during clicker training where timing is everything, I often wonder what must go in their mind as the treat goes flying out of their mouth, but then they go gather it again all happy!

Cool tricks you're training Gertie! I am not sure how happy she will be to see Esther come back, with all the attention and pampering she's been getting these weeks, but hopefully you'll have some in-person support during this delicate re-integration time so to up the chances for a smooth transition.

JMFS · May 3, 2022

I'm hoping Gertie's laid back nature will carry us through this. If not, we have the means to manage it - it just won't be as lovely as it would if the girls got along. With 6 sessions coming up with Esther as well, we can enlist their help in making it as smooth as possible. I'm with you, though. I'm a bit trepidatious, but also excited. I'm anxious to see if Esther has the ability to temper herself now.

They did say she has stopped gulping her water down, and even went accident free at least once. She said she's grown fond of our little girl. :) She sent a text around 9:30 last night saying Esther was being integrated into their pack. She was playing with their 1-yr old puppy and their 4-yr old unaltered male. These gals definitely live and breathe the dog life! They sent pictures of Esther being out to lunch with them - she got to sit on the patio and they said she was confused when the food came out and she didn't get any, lol.

They were talking about wine in the very first video they sent so I'm going to put together a little basket for them. I'm thinking of getting a few 4-packs of those single serve bottles, and arranging them with some cheese and crackers (just hope they're not vegan!).

I'm trying to think of something for Leah. She's really big on holidays and brought us things for Christmas and Valentine's. I feel, with Mother's Day being this weekend, I should get a little something for her, too. I don't know if she drinks wine, or what her other likes are so it's tough. I'm not very good at these gifting things, but I'm trying. :)

For Adrienne, hmmmm. Chocolates? Wine? Massage gift certificate! ❤

Adrienne Farricelli · May 6, 2022

The big day is coming closer! I am sure you have a mixed bag of emotions going on. Esther is going to be so happy to see you again!

It's good that you're meeting at the pet store so that you can see how she performs in that environment. It's a great place to proof things.

Keep us posted on how things go!

JMFS · May 6, 2022

I confirmed this afternoon. Leah and I went over a plan of action to ease the girls into things. We're both sure it's going to be fine, but I don't want to take 6 steps back!

I was told Esther and Lilith had to be separated last night because they were taking turns barking and play bowing at each other and the trainer pulled the plug at 3 am, lol. She moved Lilith (one of her Heelers - they're Really into Heelers) to a separate room. She said Esther has made Many friends over the past week so hooray! She recommended parallel walks to acclimate the girls to each other again.

I am excited, but I'm also already missing the peace and calm, lol. I'm going over in my mind how I'm going to get the frog fed because Gertie loves to join me for that. She is fascinated with him. I'm thinking Esther will have to be with the husband, or in her kennel, for that because I do see Gertie getting grumpy over Esther trying to watch - and I don't think Esther will let me get the job done. It's hard enough with only Gertie trying to see! Gerts has had the whole middle of the couch to herself so Leah recommended no couch for them while we're eating. I think Esther can go on the bed I have on the floor while Gertie is on the couch. Maybe. That's how we did it before, then Gertie would move over to the husband's side when we finished eating. That's the main issue I think we may have.

If Esther has a different energy, though, this may all be for naught and we could have a perfectly fine time. We shall see! I'm pretty good at assessing the feeling of emotions in the room and I'll trust in that skill to determine which tweaks to make.

Wish us luck!

Adrienne Farricelli · May 7, 2022

That's great that you have a plan in place, I find parallel walks on neutral territory very useful for introductions/ re-introductions.

I didn't know you had a frog, LOL! That must be cute as a pet, never had one! Only found one in my home back when I lived in Missouri one morning and it was staring at me from the wall when I was still in bed and that was a funny wake-up call!

Managing things is always a good approach. I too would agree on not keeping dogs on the couch. If one is allowed and the other not though, this can possibly become source for conflict so I would be watchful for that.

Wishing you the best of luck!

JMFS · May 8, 2022

It's going to be an adjustment, for sure. The training we're doing with them is a class, but they put Esther right next to the main station so they can give us extra help. She pooped in their vehicle on the way there, peed when she greeted us, peed again in the store, then I took her out to pee. I Knew she had to poop, but she wasn't giving up the goods, so we headed back inside and she pooped on the sidewalk. As a final salute she pooped once more in the store. I kept it together - they were good at encouraging me.

Then we got home. Lol! I missed the part where they said we still need treats for outside so my dumb self, who also took the Haltie off in the vehicle, got my arm torn this way and that as she exerted some zoomies. I had to put the Haltie back on - she was Not coping on the leash. With the Haltie on there was far better control, and she responded much better (with only the leash she was not listening At All). I couldn't get Esther upstairs until my husband put Gertie in the kennel. There's only been one accident inside so far. We're going to start doing walks each day at 5:00 down to the end of the street. That should take us about 10 minutes, which is within the 10 - 20 minute time frame they recommended. Keep it short, but long enough. It's so easy to skip walks when there's acreage, but now we have a purpose to the walks.

Monkey (the cat) hasn't eaten since Thursday morning. :( He does this here and there and starts eating after I get some wet food in him (I started alternating wet in the morning with dry at night because of this), but this time he's not coming back like he usually does. I've gotten several syringe fulls of chicken baby food down him, but he won't eat on his own. Water with a syringe as well. That's the most concerning part, the water. I can't tell if he's drinking on his own or not, but I suspect he is not and put some down him with the syringe, just in case. The next time I give him medication via syringe should be easy at least, lol. He'll think it's food or just water. I brought him in last night from the storm and was going to take him before going to training, but Jim didn't know my plan and let Monkey out. By the time we found him on the lanai it was time to go. Took him to Banfield because everyone else was playing round robin, passing me to this vet and that. I knew Banfield would take a look. After running a litany of tests, he's healthy, aside from a high white cell count. She's treating him for pancreatitis, but it could be cancer. She said if we are going to go through chemo they can order up ultrasounds and x-rays, but at his age she said most people opt to let them live out their days and then humanely euthanize. I'm not there, yet. We'll see what this week brings and go from there. She gave us an appetite stimulant and I set up the ex-pen for him so he can stay inside, but not be bothered. It will also stop him from wandering towards the front door. He very much wants outside, but I don't want him sheltering somewhere I can't find him. I even bumped out a section for his litter box so he has some privacy. :p It's kind of in the shape of an "L."

On a better note, yep, The Doctor is a White's Tree Frog. My daughter got him, then abandoned him over here so he's now my grandfroggy and I take care of him. He jumps on the glass when I come into the room. They're known for their voracious appetites, and propensity towards obesity, so I feed him Thursdays and Mondays only. I still don't like being the harbinger of doom for these poor crickets, but my grandfroggy needs sustenance. My daughter fed him using tongs, but I've removed myself from the equation by putting the crickets in a container, then transferring The Doctor to the same container. What happens in the container, stays in the container! 5 critters enter, 1 critter leaves. Gertie Loves to watch him, but I've already lost 1 cricket in my kiddo's room because Gerts bumped me so she now has to lie down a short distance away.

His name is actually The Detective, but for some reason I greeted him as Meester Detektivf - in a Russian accent. Why? I like doing Russian accents and Mister works better than "The," I suppose. Well, then he became Mr. D. That makes his initials MD, which means he's a doctor. His vivarium is bigger on the inside than the outside (really, it looks tiny from the outside, but it's his whole world) so he became The Doctor. Yes, I'm a mess. I'd say I have too much time on my hands, but it's quite the opposite. Maybe I'm just going looney tunes - that's likely more accurate, lol.

Adrienne Farricelli · May 8, 2022

Oh wow, so much going on in your home right now, and all you needed was a sick kitty on top of that. It's so sad when they don't want to eat. Makes one feel so helpless. I guess if he was really dehydrated, they would have given him fluids. Wet food and baby food at least helps them get a bit of hydration. I hope it's nothing major.

I wonder what was up with Esther pooping so much! Maybe all the excitement going on, or a change of treats? Hopefully her tummy will adjust as she settles down again.

I worked with a dog not too long ago who would get the zoomies after removing his harness. He really didn't like it too much, so removing it was super party time for him. I once made the mistake of removing it in the elevator to speed up things, and he jumped and got all nippy. Lesson learned, harness would come off only once in the home where he had more room to "zoom" LOL.

Your frog is so cute! I have never seen one like that. I think I would have no problem feeding crickets because I have developed a negative conditioned emotional response to them because in Arizona there are so many and some like to sneak into the walls and they'll chirp all night long driving us nuts. My husband one night was literally wanting to rip the wall apart LOL.

They also managed to eat my zucchini that I was watching and watering for months and was so happy to have because in the desert it's so hard to have anything green growing. My friend who has grown zucchini for years in Italy told me not to worry that crickets don't eat them. I had to send her a picture of half zucchini eaten up as proof. They even ate our olive tree's leaves which are supposed to be the most bitter things.

When we got chicken I was happy that they finally got predators, but even the chickens couldn't catch them 😞

JMFS · May 28, 2022

For those who don't want to read a saga, skip to the 5th paragraph after the dotted line. 🤣 This is more just kind of a catch up post for Adrienne than anything else (I love giving Adrienne long posts to read . . . lol - she's the best and I at least Try to make them entertaining).

Wow! It sounds like a Lot of people are experiencing similar issues to ours lately. I've been gone for a bit - had the flu (not Covid) and am still kind of recovering from that due to allergy complications. Last Monday my right calf was feeling tight and we chalked it up to being dehydrated and not eating for 5 days. It was enough to make me limp a bit as I tried to keep weight off it. It was feeling a wee bit better this past Monday (so a week later) and I was also feeling better (highly recommend vitamin IV with saline to help speed the healing process! We have a "recharge" clinic here that does IVs for all sorts of issues - even my joints felt better, likely the saline hydration at work). Anyway . . . Monday I was hobbling around, taking care of everyone, and was headed downstairs with Gertie's water when my calf went Snap! Instant pain, instant tears (and for mere pain to make me cry, it has to be significant) a scream and a curse (yep, the F-bomb came out). Sobbing, I limped my way to the sink, cleaned Gertie's bowl, filled it, managed the stairs, set her bowl down, then sat in my husband's chair (mine is a tall drafting chair) and had a good sobbing cry because at that point I was overwhelmed and in some pretty serious pain. Texted my husband that I was immobile and waited for him to get home to examine (he was a firefighter / paramedic for 6 years and keeps his license up to date). He was able to determine, with a fair amount of certainty, it wasn't a DVT (thank goodness) and figured I snapped my tendon. We decided to let it ride for a few days to see if it got better. It did not, and it started to swell, so Thursday I had him drop me off at an urgent care facility with imaging next door. So after everyone cringed sympathetically at my story, lol, and an ultrasound ruled out DVT as well (I'd have been in serious trouble or dead by Thursday if it had been a DVT . . . but whatever, here's $200, knock yourselves out), it was determined I tore my calf. Just a small tear, thankfully, so no surgery. I have to stay off it for 4 weeks, keep it wrapped, no exercise (hahahaha, no problemo!), use heat, take a muscle relaxer (ugh - they make me so sleepy), and elevate it (not sure how when my chair is so high, but I do what I can when I can).

That, on top of Monkey (who has plumped up and is on prednisone, but I've been warned it may be temporary), on top of Esther, on top of being behind in work due to sleeping for 1½ weeks to get over the flu . . . this gal is stressed to the max. Monkey has been driving me Nuts with his mow-wow-wowing to be let outside so I've compromised with him and he gets to stay out during the day, but has to come in at night.

My husband has been a champion throughout it all. He's a fantastic caregiver, and I'm a grumpy thankless mean sicko. If our marriage survived me being infirm, it will survive dang near anything, lol. He did storm out on me once because I was being especially thankless and negative (I'm not proud of it but I believe in full disclosure!) and took Esther and Abbi with him. Poor Gertie, my shining star, was left with me. She has also been 95% wonderful throughout, going so far as to walk behind me on the stairs, one step at a time, all the while wagging her tail and watching me closely. ❤️

--------------------------------------------

I sent the husband to the 2nd training session (it's a group class at a pet store for 6 weeks) with Esther because I was full-blown sick, and he skipped the 3rd because he didn't want to go alone again (I'm his ESW, haha). My husband explained to them the issues we were having, and that I was seriously considering rehoming Esther (as though anyone is going to jump at the chance of a challenged incontinent 19-month old pup . . . but I'm sure the heck not taking her back to the shelter). I have considered asking the shelter if I could foster her while they find a suitable match - it's just too much with everything else happening, I feel defeated). The trainer's answer was to come over here to show me how to do nose work and put Esther on the treadmill. No call, no email, though, so that hasn't happened and I haven't felt well enough, until today, to follow up.

They said Esther had no issues with dogs on the television. We still have issues. So is she being protective of us? Is our television bigger? Do they not really watch television? Do they simply know how to address it, and behave differently than we do? Who knows?! It's worse now, though. She lost her cool over a rat on the television the other night. I think it's us.

As long as we have food she is 90% great. My husband has been doing all the training because I am not going to risk that girl pulling me down right now. She's doing wonderfully with the Haltie, but as soon as that is off (for me, at least) she goes Right back to pulling. We need to wean her off the treats and I'm hoping we can get the board and train folks over here soon for the treadmill, nose work, and guidance on phasing out treats (though I think we'll Always have to have them at the ready for emergencies). My husband listens to the trainers, but not me, so I'm hoping they'll make the trip over here to show him how to vary and phase out treats. He does have occasional success with a squeaky toy so we know she's not 100% dependent on food, it's just a matter of showing him how to vary it.

She's doing beautiful attention heeling, and her accidents have been significantly diminished. Her pad aim has greatly improved as well so I bought 8 more of the reusables. They didn't give her the Rescue Remedy while she was there, which irritated me because she had numerous accidents the first week home until the RR was back in her system. They switched her food instead of asking me for more when she ran out, and charged me for a full bag, but didn't give us the bag (it takes her about 45 days to clear a 30-lb bag and she'd only been on it for about 9 days). That was irksome. They told me when they tried to put her back on ProPlan she had digestive issues. Well, yeah . . . most dogs can't switch at the drop of a hat, and it takes a gradual progression from one food to the other. Not a couple days!

They definitely did some great things for her, but they didn't communicate changes very well, and that was aggravating. I think I'm still in negativity mode a bit so I'm being harsh. Maybe. Leah thought it was kind of sneaky to do the food change without clearing it with me first. We can see a clear change in her demeanor, but she has miles yet to go. So, for anyone else considering board and train, you'll want to be more proactive than I was and stay on top of them while clearly communicating that any changes they make need to be approved by you. I didn't expect them to make these decisions without first consulting with me.

At this point I've told my husband, only half jokingly, I'm willing to put up x dollars for whomever is a match for her and they can apply that to training with Leah or the board and train folks - their choice, or veterinary care if they don't need the training and it's just us (me, probably). I wouldn't want to introduce a fourth trainer (you're #1!) - that's just getting silly, and they'd have to start all over with her history and getting familiar.

I don't know quite what to do at this point and am not making any decisions until my mind is back to my usual resilience. I guess for the next 4 weeks there's not much for me to do (probably more like 2½ - 3 because I Should be almost healed by week 3) other than inside training. Right now I'm Definitely over my capacity and struggling.

Adrienne Farricelli · May 30, 2022

Oh, dear...I am so sorry. I am reading through and feeling your pain and can't stop thinking how unfortunate the timing of all these events. On the positive side, I am glad it didn't turn out being DVT.

There has been an increase of dog-to-dog aggression cases (along with the infamous big surge of separation anxiety) with the recent pandemic and people adopting more dogs and adding them to the household. On top of that, less socializing (or socialization of the wrong type) having a snowball effect. A veterinary behaviorist has reported in a forum last month that female -to- female fighting is still ranking number one and topping her workload.

So there you are with recovering from the flu, with a torn calf, 4 weeks of recovery, medications that make you sleepy, on a no exercise regimen, Esther coming back home, Monkey being sick and wanting to be taken repeatedly out, then being behind work -life is not fair! One positive though, you have a very supportive husband!

That's interesting that they said no issues with the TV when she was boarded. I am not totally surprised though. Sometimes, behaviors don't transfer over in a different setting. That's one flaw of board and training (and one advantage of having trainers come to the home so they can observe the behavior). I am covering some possible reasons this may happen:

-It could be the honeymoon effect. We see this happening the first few days, weeks and even months, where dogs are on their best behaviors, but then later they fall back into exhibiting them. Next one may say "but won't the honeymoon effect happen at my home?" Not likely, since you are battling a place with a strong reinforcement history.

-It could be the trainers were providing oodles of exercise and mental stimulation. This may not always replicable in a busy household.

-It could be there were other more engaging activities that made the TV less salient. It could be they had other dogs she likely was very eager to interact with and play with them or other animals on the farm, and the TV was too boring in comparison.

Side note-I am of the belief that board and training works best when we can mimic the dog's original household setting and add things that dog owners can then rather easily replicate at home. If we allow them too much space, too much interactions or levels of exercise that owners cannot replicate, once home, the contrast can affect them negatively and the dogs are likely to revert to their usual behaviors. -Now, that treadmill training can come handy if you're unable to walk her.

-It could be the trainers were very thorough and micro-managed her. In other words, as soon as they noticed the slightest sign of her intent to do something undesirable, they swiftly intervened. After some time, this can have a suppressive effect, with the dog giving up in doing certain things or even trying certain things.

-It could be they had a smaller TV or there were too many other things going on for it to grasp her attention. Maybe they watched it in the evening when she was tired.

-It could be there was no need for attention. If the reaction to the TV is attention-driven and she was entertained enough for most of the day, she may have felt fulfilled enough to not need it.

As the saying goes, (this is an Italian saying so translating it) extreme maladies may need extreme remedies so at this point, maybe it's time to go to more significant interventions. Here are some ideas (pass them to trainers so to make sure you're all on the same page).

-Replicating what the trainers were doing (I would ask them all the nitty gritty details, tv model, size, resolution, frequency of being turned on, did she ever show any minimal signs of it and it was extinguished right there?)

-Placing the TV behind a indoor doggy gate or inside an exercise pen so she can't get that close (this may lead to barrier frustration so careful with this).

-Try using a smaller TV

-Try using a TV that is hung high to the wall

-Timing TV time with her rest time and letting her rest in a separate area or in a crate (with a stuffed Kong)

-Taking smaller steps (see below)

Ideas to reduce reactions to visuals:

Dimming the TV. Most TV sets have an option of dimming the TV so that images are darker and less intense. Every model will have their own instructions to follow.

Adding distance. Keeping your dog at a distance from the TV can help keep him under threshold. You may have to place your dog behind a baby gate or use a tall pet gate that she can't jump over.

Placing some fabric. Taping a piece of fabric over the screen can reduce the saliency of the images. One may use different fabrics gradually moving to more and more transparent ones.

Using a Calming Cap: a calming cap like the Thunder Cap can block a dog's visuals so to reduce reactivity and help keep the dog under threshold.

Strategies To Reduce Reactions to Sounds:

Lowering the volume. Simply reducing the volume of the triggering sound can help better keep a dog under threshold.

Adding distance. If your dog is in a separated area at a distance from the TV this can help keep him under threshold. You may have to place your dog behind a baby gate or use a tall pet gate that she can't jump over.

Adding some white noise. A fan running while you watch TV can help buffer a bit the noises.

Using noise-cancelling devices. There are several products meant to make noises less salient to dogs such as the Happy Hoodie or Noise Cancelling Head Phones for Dogs.

Here is an example of a case I worked on not too long ago:

Roxie was a 2-year-old Pitbull who recently started barking at the TV. This dog barked at the TV when other dogs showed up or barked. Knowing what the exact trigger is is very helpful considering that predictability allows a certain level of control over the trigger. It helps pave the path to behavior modification since the sight and sound of dogs barking can be presented in a less stimulating way.

Roxie was therefore exposed to a recording of dogs barking using a video from YouTube played from a computer (without any visual) starting from a low volume. Every time, the sound of the barking dog was presented, a tasty treat (piece of roasted chicken) followed.

This was repeated several times until Roxie developed that "where's my chicken" look. She simply turned her head in our direction upon hearing the dog barking versus reacting. After several trials, the volume was increased gradually. Once she was fine with that, the same exercises were moved to the living room in front of the TV, but still using the audio recordings and now tossing the chicken on a mat.

Next, videos of dogs were displayed on the TV (without audio) using a thick cloth taped to the TV screen first. Roxie was kept on leash at a distance from the TV next to the mat. The same exercise was done, feeding chicken every time Roxie spotted a dog.

Once we got that "where's my chicken" look we used a gradually thinner cloth and did the same. We then graduated and used the thinnest cloth and then started adding some audio starting at low volume first. Finally, we removed the cloth altogether and played at regular volume. We used baked liver rather than chicken (liver was at the very top of her favorite things!) for this last part to more effectively compete with the saliency of the dogs barking.

If at any time during the process she reacted, we took that as a sign that the stimulation level was too intense and would take a step back in the process.

After several trials, we were able to have her go lie down to her mat upon seeing/hearing a dog barking and rewarded her and then we established a new routine of keeping her busy with a stuffed frozen Kong (her dinner meal made of kibble mixed with canned dog food and frozen) when the owner was watching TV in the evening.

The more a dog doesn't react to the sights/sounds (despite hearing them in the background), the more we establish some level of habituation, where the TV stuff starts getting more and more boring and ho-hum.. so not worthy of paying attention to.

If she is 90 percent great with the food, that 10 percent is likely what is keeping the behavior alive. The power of an intermittent schedule. Sometimes, I get to practice the behavior and other times not.

Since there is some level of instinctive prey drive (to want to chase critters like the rat), we can only manage/redirect and do what we can to make the behavior less desirable.

Weaning off treats, is something that needs to be done gradually. From a continuous schedule (giving a treat for every behavior), we then go to an intermittent one (although we may need at times to go temporary back to continuous when there is a new challenge/raise in criteria) where a treat is given every now and then, although we still must provide some "reward' as positive feedback under the form of praise, pats or a life reward.

You are correct, we don't totally abandon treats. We need to have them for emergencies, and then maintenance sessions. What we do totally abandon though is the sight of treats, that is, we stop showing them in full sight, but this is normally done very quickly to prevent dependency and the common cliché' of "show me the money" or "my dog won't do anything if he doesn't see the treats."

More about this here:

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/dog-listens-treats/

and here:https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/brain-training/polishing-up-training/fading-food-lures/

and here: https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/brain-training/polishing-up-training/fading-continuous-rewards/

With the Haltie, it is easy to become dependent on it-I mean both us and the dogs. There's a big difference to control the head of a dog and controlling the neck. That's why horses wear head halters instead of collars. We can control even large animals with halters.

I can understand how upsetting it may be knowing that they didn't give her the RR and they switched her food! I had something similar happen as well (well, maybe even worse!).

Rant starts- Einstein as a puppy contracting Valley Fever (a *gift* from Arizona), and I boarded him on purpose at a vet hospital because I felt he was safer there. I gave them a tot amount of 7 pills for his 5 day stay there (with a couple extra in case of a late pickup for some reason). Imagine my face when I go home and go to give him his pill and all the 5 pills are still there! I was so angry because I gave them the bottle, told them the directions and boarded him on purpose in an animal hospital so he could receive the utmost care and they forget to give him his pills! He was even diagnosed with valley fever there so they had his records and I know they look at those records every day when dogs are boarded as the put notes in there about how much they eat and over all health during their stay. Rant ends-

I agree with Leah, any food/dietary changes need to be discussed. At least, they should have tried to stick to the same food!

I can't imagine how frustrating it can be going through all of this and being sick on top of it. I wish I could help you more. There *might* be chances that in November I may make a trip to Florida for a couple of months. I am overseas right now working on a project so who knows, maybe I can swing by depending on where I go.

It's always a good approach to make decisions when one can think clearly. Right now, you are overwhelmed with so many things! When we're "over threshold" like this, things appear very complicated and we can't think straight. Especially at night! Ever happened to you to feel like things are irremediable at night and then in the morning everything seems much easier? I can say the difference is "between night and day"-how's that as a pun?

I hope the trainer that will come to your home can see how she behaves in your home setting so to offer some deeper troubleshooting.

I am sending you best wishes for a speedy recovery and big supportive hug. 🤗

JMFS · May 30, 2022

Yes! I get it with the medication. The first time the new owners of our boarding facility had Mo and Gertie they didn't give any of the fish oil I provided. Momo needed it for the arthritis, and did far better when taking the supplement, and Gertrude for her itchy skin. Heck, I take it for my dry eyes. 1200 mg / day (burp less formula - nothing like having fish oil repeat its performance, yuck!). Bonus - great for the heart, skin, hair, and nails. If you eat fish, I do not, then the amount can be lessened.

I absolutely Love the idea of dimming the television! How simple, yet I'm betting it's very effective. I'm going to put these ideas into effect tonight! She did quite well, considering, last night when a dog appeared on the tv. She was certainly alert (she actually watches) but we caught it in time and praised her for looking away. Mental note: put treats within reach, duhhh.

My husband stepping it up is a massive help. He was letting me handle everything, but seeing me cry for only the 2nd time since I've known him drove the point home - I need support. He's also better able to let things roll off his back. I'm still learning to let go. Buuuut, he is still of the opinion that she needs to just be thrown into everything, and none of us have been able to convince him otherwise. We all have learning to do! Perhaps I need to do the training when he's out in the field, and she's not expecting to be on the couch. Shake things up a bit!

Day and night is so right. I ordered a pair of crutches last night in hopes of taking some weight off the leg while it heals. I woke up today with the leg feeling better, and feeling silly or wimpy for wanting crutches, lol. Then I got an email saying my order was delayed (it was for pick up today). It's as though everything is saying I don't actually need them. I'm going to go ahead and get them Just in case we need them in the future. This type of injury is likely to reoccur, though I am going to be stretching once it heals enough (I was warned not to overstretch for fear of increasing the tear), so it would be good to have them available.

It would be so much fun to meet! We're in central Florida - not sure which part you'll be in. Thank you for the wishes, advice, and hug!

FrederykBlot · May 31, 2022

Hi !

I must admit I didn't go through the whole history of message I missed, but it seems from the last I read, the times are not easy

In spite of being able to do anything, I can still have a little word : GAMBATE !!!! (yes, I'm an anime fan !)

After the storm comes the sun !

JMFS · June 6, 2022

I'll start with the bad so I can close with the good. 🙂 Friday, as we were leaving to meet friends for dinner, I slipped on the stairs and bumped down about 5 or 6 of them (hard to keep count when you're attempting to right yourself). I was able to stop the slide before it got too bad, but my everything still hurts. The jolts were definitely not good for my already arthritic situation, and I can't use my inversion table because of the torn calf. I'm a hot mess over here! Word to the wise: it's a pain to vacuum carpeted stairs, but boy do they help with preventing accidents! We put faux wood planks on ours, and the bullnose on the edge is slick. I have stair rugs, I guess you could call them, on each one, but I completely missed the little rug and was in socks, which made for a bruised bum. Never thought I'd be thankful for having a little extra cushion these days, but I am, hahaha! I am not an injury prone person - not sure what's going on with me lately as this is highly unusual.

Now the good!

My husband has Really shone during this time. It took him a bit to recognize that I was not kidding when I said I needed help, but once it clicked he took charge. He's been feeding, pottying, training, and playing with Esther. My recent slip on the stairs was proof that I'm not ready to handle her exuberance and zest for life.

Esther has started to relax on the couch (unless the frog jumps out of his enclosure and I make a surprised exclamation - he's a frisky frog!). I was chided for that, but if you saw my daughter's messy room, you'd understand. I do Not want to have to look for that little guy in that disaster area! She's stopped swiping at the Haltie and has accepted it, which means I have some control over her excitement and can now take her outside a bit, even with a bum leg. Her peeing has diminished with the use of the RR, and she's stopped (mostly) trying to eat her gate when we're out.

She still needs to recognize that Gertie likes a little space. Gerts had to use her words last night when Esther essentially sat on a sleeping Gertie. I'll have to pay closer attention, but I Think she's even stopped trying to herd, block, and move Gertie out of the way.

She's still barking at creatures on the television, but we're able to get her to calm down with some effort. Before she wouldn't even acknowledge us, so this is progress. We're trying to watch Fantastic Beasts: The Secrets of Dumbledore, but our 3-yr old TV is on the fritz. They just don't make 'em like they used to! Even the fake creatures (or maybe Especially) are getting her excited. She was barking at a poor fawn-type critter last night, but using "leave" to get her attention diffused the situation a bit, then I was able to tell her, "good" each time she looked at the television without barking. There was some of that winding down they do, whining, groaning, sighing, gruffing; but overall she did alright and we were able to watch 10 more minutes before the television said, "no more."

There's a light at the end of this tunnel. As long as my husband keeps helping, we may all survive. I'm cautious with my hope, but this week is definitely better than last. Each morning I wake up I remember, "Night and day," and it's so true! I go to bed aching, but I wake up feeling better than the day before.

Adrienne Farricelli · June 7, 2022

Oh no, right when you think things couldn't have gone worse! In Italy, we have a saying "from the frying pan to the grill" meaning "from bad to worse." Glad your carpeted stairs were able to cushion your fall. I hope you recover quickly.

That's so awesome your husband is helping out so much! And that Esther is showing all this improvement (both health-wise and behavior-wise).

I am not surprised Gertie used her words when clumsy Esther sat on her while she was sleeping. If this happened to one of my Rotties, they would have responded with a sharp snark, as if saying "what the **ck!"

TV training sounds like good progress. She sounds less over threshold so more capable of attending to your cues. The less she rehearses, the better. The more she watches the TV without barking, even better!

As long and you and your husband are on the same page as to consistency and training cues, she should understand what is expected of her and she can relax knowing that there are no shades of gray (inconsistencies).

P.S. I had to Google "bullnose", I never heard of that term before!

JMFS · June 9, 2022

We're getting to the same page. He skips ahead a few chapters sometimes. I'm going to start bringing treats to the couch for those moments because he doesn't think she's over threshold, but I say when he's having to hold her back, she's over threshold. We'll get there - just not sure who needs more training, him, her, or me, lol. Whoever it is, she went back 2 steps last night and we had a debate over how to handle it. I know I've said it before - he's of the mind that she needs to be inundated with animals on the TV and she'll eventually get bored with it. I have the opinion that her stamina will outlast us, and we should try small doses first. It's tough to say which would work better because she's been in situations where she's overwhelmed and she does eventually calm down, but at what cost? Is she really settling down, or is she shutting down? They look similar. I think with me out of the room she might do better simply because I get annoyed that he's not listening to me, but I also don't know for sure if I'm the correct one in all this. With me out of the room she might be fine because my annoyed energy won't be there.

I've learned much construction terminology since he started building again. It's mostly on-the-nose kind of terminology - they keep it simple. Tongue and groove is interlocking ridges and grooves. Toenailing something came about because they used to (and some still do) use their toe to hold the piece of wood they're nailing in place. Cost-plus is where you pay the cost of construction plus the contractor's fee. Moling is a method used to lay pipes. They use a machine, known as a mole, to force its way through the soil along the desired path of the pipe, just like a mole does in our yards. 45ing is where trim is cut at a 45 degree angle for corners. There are many more I've already forgotten. Every time I learn of one of the more literal terms it makes me giggle. Then there are those that don't make sense at all. Transom is a small window that's generally used only for light, so it won't open or close, and it's generally put above another window or a door.

I'm alternating legs going up the stairs today. 🙂 Yesterday it was too much, today it's tolerable. I'm still using the railing and wall to steady me going down them, though, since that's how my calf tore in the first place. Single event learning! 😆 My eyes are getting better with the addition of fish oil - when I can remember to take it. I'm horrible with medications, and even worse with supplements. I swear by fish oil, though, for dry eyes. I won't eat fish so I have to supplement.

Adrienne Farricelli · June 11, 2022

Yes, being on the same page and consistency is very important, especially with some sensitive dogs. Any inconsistencies can trigger uncertainty, confusion and even anxiety.

Yes, if you're having to hold her back she's definitely over threshold-either too close to the TV or the stimuli on the TV are too intense for her to handle. She's not ready for that level yet.

You husband is not technically totally off the mark. I mean, I can see his good intent in wanting to tackle the issue by trying to expose her to as many animals as possible hoping that she gets bored. Most likely, he's getting impatient of progress not being made as hoped and the "one step ahead and one step back" dance.

Sounds like what your husband is hoping to achieve is habituation. Technically, this can happen in some cases, but it comes with risks.

Nerdy info coming.....

In its most simple definition, habituation is the process where dogs, other animals and people get accustomed to specific circumstances.

Habituation is a process that happens in all parts of our lives, and is ultimately a form of learning. In other words, habituation is a learned response to repeated stimuli-like living near an airport and gradually getting used to hearing airplanes.

Habituation therefore results when repeated exposure to a stimulus decreases a dog's sensitivity to it. Hence, habituation helps the body adapt to things in their environment.

When dogs are exposed to stimuli or situations, a stimulus-response situation presents where the stimulus elicits a response and excites multiple areas of the cerebral cortex. Repeated exposure to the stimulus leads to almost complete extinction of the cerebral cortical response—basically, habituation occurs as a result of synaptic depression, leading to lowered chances for transmitter release at appropriate synapses within the habituating circuit.

A classical example of habituation in dogs is dogs who reacts to certain noises. For instance, a rescued dog may be startled by the noise produced by a dishwasher, however, after several exposures, the dog habituates to it. Or a young puppy may struggle with wearing a collar, however with time, he habituates to it after wearing it for a while.

Yet, habituation isn't perfect and it has some flaws.

-Firstly, how fast and at what degree a dog habituates may vary based on several variables such as the intensity of the stimulus, its duration and its frequency. You may therefore have steady, incremental progress, increased reactions initially followed by non-reactions, or ups and downs.

- If exposure to a certain stimulus is withheld, the original response tends to return after a decrease in it, leading to a phenomenon known as "spontaneous recovery. " It can therefore happen that a dog reacts to something he showed sign of habituating to a day or two later, with the reaction possibly returning to nearly the same strength as it was prior to habituation. However, once exposures return on a routine basis, the magnitude of the response will likely decline.

-The more intense the exposure to the stimulus, the slower and more complicated the process. For example, a military working dog who is exposed to a running helicopter engine for the first time at a too close and intense range, will yield a more intense reaction which puts a dent in the habituation process.

-Presenting another strong and intense stimulus may result in recovery of the original response (dishabituation) although even exposure to a weak stimulus can sometimes produce the same effect.

- If certain responses that are supposed to decrease are even occasionally rewarded, then habituation will become difficult.

Habituation therefore works best for exposures to mild or moderate stimuli, not too intense or overwhelming.

-Habituation is highly specific and doesn't fair well with subtle changes. Sokolov’s studies have shown that subtle changes in the intensity, duration, rate of repetition and association with other stimuli, may result in recovery of the habituated orienting response. It therefore works best with stimuli that are stable.

-On top of this, prolonged and overwhelming exposure may lead to hypervigilance, exhaustion, and increased anxiety. Habituation is therefore not ideal for cases involving stimuli dogs perceive as threatening.

Therefore, when a dog is repeatedly and passively exposed to a new stimulus, it can lead to two different outcomes, a good one and a bad one.

The good one is habituation, where the response towards the stimulus decreases over time with the dog getting used to it. The bad one is sensitization, where the response towards the stimulus increases over time.

You can get a dog habituated to a stimulus through flooding or desensitization.

Through flooding, the dog is exposed to the stimulus in an intense way causing the dog to go over threshold and react to it. At a certain point, the dog may eventually habituate to it. This can be a counterproductive process as it can be stressful and dangerous too. It is typically not recommended.

Through desensitization, the dog is exposed to the stimulus in small, graduated steps, ensuring the dog doesn't go over threshold. This is a more controlled process, and much safer, leading to less stress on the dog.

Habituation therefore may work in young pups (during the times they are most malleable), using exposures to very mild stimuli that are rather regular (not much variability) and no responses should be occasionally rewarded.

So to recap, just exposing Esther to the TV with animals playing all day with not intervention is not likely to give the desired results. She may habituate to certain animals that are quiet or slow moving but may becomes sensitized to others. Also, allowing her to lunge at the tv will provide the occasional reward as her seeking system is activated, and this makes the behavior more habit-forming and ingrained

Veterinary behaviorists rarely suggest flooding procedures. They instead suggest desensitization likely along with counterconditioning ( especially if there is a fear element) or differential reinforcement, reinforcing alternate or incompatible behaviors that are on the opposite spectrum of reacting to the TV (like lying on a mat, looking at animals without reacting). So not just passively keeping the tv on and hoping for the best, but doing gradual exposures. When training is not done, the dog is kept away from the TV.

Thanks for the mini course on construction terms! Very interesting, they certainly have some colorful terms!

Hope you get better by the day!

Best,

Adrienne

JMFS · July 19, 2022

Update time! The husband is still insisting, without reading what you wrote, that he needs to sit with her one day and just watch dog videos. I am thus far unsuccessful at convincing him to have a read. He's about to get full control and responsibility if he's not going to work with me! Everything else we work well with, but this one thing we're a house divided. I've been able to pull her off the barking with treats, but it's difficult because Gertie wants to have treats, too, and that poor girl is getting to where she may need to be called Girth-y. Poor Gerts, she has middle-aged woman metabolism these days and eats only 1.5 cups per day (.75 x 2), where Esther eats 2 - 2.5 (1 - 1.25 x 2, depending on how many training treats she's had). Esther is skinny, but any more food than that and she just poops it out.

Leah recommended Esther not be on the couch, and instead be on a bed on the floor. I have yet to figure out how to make that work so she's on the couch for now. The B&T trainer has said 3x now that they'll come over to show us how to set up the treadmill, but no show and I don't have the time to hound them about it. I've put her on a couple times, but it didn't go very well. It wasn't enough to poison the exercise, but I'm worried I will mess it up if I keep pushing so I'm leaving it for now and every time she steps on the treadmill I sing her praises. It's clear she Wants to, I just don't have the correct execution - or our treadmill is simply that different from theirs and we'll need to ease her into it.

The trainer from B&T had to redirect Me Saturday, lol. I guess Esther and I are kindred spirits in one regard. We take care of business right then and there. We're put next to the windows so we can train Esther through distractions and, well, humans offer Lots of that. This lady was trying to get Esther's attention through the window. Esther has her Haltie on (red flag #1), there's a class going on (yellow flag), and I'm desperately trying to get Esther's attention (red flag #2), yet she continues on and is about to tap on the glass. I was operating on 3 hours of sleep so my inhibition was non-existent. I had even snipped at my husband because he kept correcting everything and I said, "how about you let Stef handle the corrections, like she said last week?!" I was not my best self. Before that lady could tap on the glass I stepped between her and Esther and wagged my finger at her while mouthing, "stop," or some such. Stef came over and said, "we can't train the dumb out of people, but we can train our dogs to ignore the dumb," or something similar, which made me feel better because she understood but was trying to help me cool my jets. I did not get a treat for redirecting, though - guess I'm on a variable schedule. 😞

Abbi had a seizure Sunday, veterinarian Monday, and is in my craft cart next to my desk while wearing her Thundershirt. She got herself so worked up that her brain likely went hypoxic (ran out of oxygen from the panting) and her body responded by seizing. Doctor Alan gave us a Valium-type medication that can be given rectally in case of another seizure as well as another sedative for when we leave the house, but we have to be extra cautious with the dosage. Thankfully the big girls' Vet is 5 minutes away if the medication needs to be reversed.

Gertie is still 95% perfect. I told Leah the next thing I want to do with Gerts is freestyle dancing. I think that's something she'll be good at. She's not as brilliant as Momo and Esther (they're exceptional) so I have to find easier things for her. Monkey is doing well with 1 mL of Prednisolone per day. He has plumped up to his winter weight so I am limiting his food again. No good saving him from one thing only to have him morbidly obese! The frog is doing well. I'm looking for a larger terrarium for him, but my goodness those things are expensive! He's a tree frog so needs a tall enclosure and the taller variety are the more expensive ones. I'm having a hard time justifying $300 for a 3" frog. His current home is 12 x 12 x 18 and I'd like to get an 18 x 18 x 36 (he needs taller than wider because he's a climber). Experts say he's fine in that smaller size, but I keep thinking, "this is his entire world for his lifetime, he should have something bigger." I check Craigslist and the local for sale site weekly, but so far no luck.

That's it for now. I hope all is well with you!

Adrienne Farricelli · July 20, 2022

I am afraid that the issue here is some inconsistencies with management and techniques and the fact that if you're using redirection too often, that is likely causing the behavior to persist.

In other words, if she's barking and you're redirecting her with treats, she's being exposed to stimulation levels that allow her to go over threshold and she gets to rehearse the behavior, and on top of that, she's rewarded.

Sure, redirection to a sit followed by a treat may be needed in critical issues, such as when your dog has her paws up the counter and is about to steal a big steak, but other than this occasional mishap, it should be limited considering that, if you make it a habit, you may pave the path for a behavior chain. This especially applies to those smarty pants dogs who chain things together, including the unwanted behavior. Esther sounds like a dog capable of making this connection.

In an ideal situation, we therefore want to redirect her *before* she barks and the timing of this can make a lot of difference. The problem with redirecting her when she's barking and feeding treats is that you risk reinforcing the barking. And when barking is reinforced, it persists.

So if we catch her *before* the barking happens, we end up reinforcing only a minimal part of the unwanted behavior such as getting ready to move forward or staring intently, but at least, the barking in not part of the equation. Then as we progress, exposing to low-level exposures that are less stimulating, positive associations set in and we can decrease the desire to engage in the unwanted behavior.

So if we happen to occasionally redirect too late when the dog has already barked, we need to take that as a sign that we need to work more systematically so to not allow rehearsal. This can mean keeping at a farther distance, using a baby gate, finding ways to make the TV less salient and giving her something appealing to do like chewing on a long-lasting edible. Have you tried the cloth trick? Dimming the TV? Practicing with the volume off? Identify what she's OK with and what she still struggles with to do more troubleshooting.

The ultimate goal should be teaching an alternate, incompatible behavior with the barking at the TV such as going to the mat and receiving goodies there. When trained well and at a fluent level, we can then turn the dogs barking on the TV or the animals fleeing into the new cue that tells her to go to her mat to get a goodie there. At some point, we can then progress to having her lie on the mat for TV time and learn to ignore it because there are more interesting things going on in real life (like that super enticing stuffed Kong offered on the mat).

The plus thing is that, by sending her to her mat for TV training you are also encouraging her to not lie on the couch (you can be sitting there, with hubby and bulky stuff besides you), so it's a win-win! With no more access to the couch, tasty stuff offered on the mat, the couch and TV should automatically become less and less salient.

Since your husband is insisting in the habitation procedure, I would suggest having one of the trainers you have employed (or even better both!) share their thoughts about it in person. You can just casually say something along the lines of "My husband and I are really struggling with this behavior, and since we are not getting the results we want, hubby wanted to try this, what are your thoughts?"

Often times, when a professional is employed directly (and also there's a financial investment) they get more attention, and compliance is more likely. I don't know yours, but some husbands also are not much into reading, and may be more likely to heed advice given in person.

I have been trying to convince my husband to fix the sink by reading one of those "how to' articles" and he never took a look, but there comes a neighbor and tells him what to do and there he was finally giving it a try! And of course, it was exactly what the article said to do... roll eyes...

The trainer can then offer her preferred approach, and it's fundamental that it is followed carefully. Management is something that looks so easy-peasy to implement, yet it's one of the most difficult to comply with. No feeding dogs at the table to stop begging at the table, and one just feel like giving something super good just that "one time" because the dog has been good that day. Soon, the behavior makes a comeback stronger than before.

If Gertie is interfering with the training, she should be away from the area. When working on the issue, we need full concentration. And of course, you don't want her to unnecessarily plump up her out too much as that can cause problems in her joints and a host of other problems.

In regards to not being on the couch, you will need to place bulky stuff on it to break the habit and at the same time work on making her bed the best place on earth. I like to use upside down chairs, but you may find these helpful too:

This is my favorite, it's just bulky and leaves no space for the dog to jump up:

https://www.amazon.com/Couch-Defender-Keep-Furniture-Brown/dp/B009JHYVNM

These others ones use some sort of mild aversive, they either produce a crinkly noise dogs or have spikes which dogs avoid jumping on instinctively. I don't recommend using the ones producing shock.

The biggest flaws of these is that some dogs learn how to move them. You may need to supervise to make sure she doesn't try to do that and find ways to make them more stable or try something else.

I am so sorry to hear about Abbi's seizure. Poor Abbi. That must have been scary. Hopefully, it disn't last too long and was an isolated event. Glad your vet provided you with the Valium, in case of need.

I love Steph's statement: "we can't train the dumb out of people, but we can train our dogs to ignore the dumb." Brings me back memories of when I worked for an animal hospital and there was this Malamute who was visibly uncomfortable around people. This lady approaches him and he's snarling and growling, and there she is still sweet talking and even wanting to pet him to "reassure him" that she's friendly! The owner fortunately body blocked her before we stepped in and told her to back off!

I am sure Gertie would love freestyle dancing and so would you! Petra was my freestyle girl and we took part in some events. There are even online contests where you can compete for ribbons. The bow and dance videos in the video archive and the leg weaving exercises in the Brain Training section can help you get started.

Einstein was instead my Rally obedience partner. There are online events for that too with a judge. Kaiser got really good at Rally O and we earned a ribbon, but we then has to suspend when he tore his ACL, and when that finally healed, then his IVDD kicked in on and off. I wished we started earlier when he was younger and full of energy.

I am glad that Monkey and your frog are doing well!

JMFS · July 20, 2022

Omigosh the truths you speak! It's not easy when you're of differing opinions, and you're both Certain you're right.

We tried the dimming and husband said, "nope," to that one. Esther still reacted anyway so we need to go the towel or sheet route.

I was afraid I might be rewarding the barking, doggone it. My biggest worry is that the husband grabs her and in my mind I'm thinking of a redirected bite potential because she's so worked up. He's not hearing me on that - kind of like the gal in your example. He thinks he's impervious or exempt, which he is not. He always pulls her towards him and her face is Right next to his. Maybe I need to start with my phone, then work up to the 10" tablet, then the 12.4", then my monitor . . . if my words are falling on deaf ears. I'd like him to still have ears to ignore me with than have Esther rip one off! In a calm state she would Never, but hyped up like that I'm not so sure.

Great idea about asking the trainers. In front of him, lol. I like the upside down chair idea. Right now they're next to the treadmill to keep her from hopping off the sides, but since I'm holding for an in person visit I think I can use them on the couch instead. It's a biiiiig couch (loveseat with chaise lounges on each side) so I may need to put some pillows or blankets there as well. Or maybe drape a blanket over the chair legs so it looks solid. My brain wheels are turning now. 😄

Adrienne Farricelli · July 21, 2022

We tried the dimming and husband said, "nope," to that one. Esther still reacted anyway so we need to go the towel or sheet route.

In some cases, you may need to implement several changes at once and then wean them off gradually. You will have to see what works for her. For example, combining the dimming, the cloth, the distance. But prior to that, before adding visuals, you may want to work on audio recordings of dogs barking, starting at low volume, dogs barking/ treat, dogs barking/ treat (paying attention to be fast enough to treat before she has the opportunity barks, but ideally at a level that doesn't evoke barking in the first place) and teaching her to lie on the mat in order to get the treat until you have a solid response.

If the trainers can help you out on this to at least to get you started, that would be great. You can also post videos here and we can do some troubleshooting if you're stuck.

I was afraid I might be rewarding the barking, doggone it. My biggest worry is that the husband grabs her and in my mind I'm thinking of a redirected bite potential because she's so worked up. He's not hearing me on that - kind of like the gal in your example. He thinks he's impervious or exempt, which he is not. He always pulls her towards him and her face is Right next to his. Maybe I need to start with my phone, then work up to the 10" tablet, then the 12.4", then my monitor . . . if my words are falling on deaf ears. I'd like him to still have ears to ignore me with than have Esther rip one off! In a calm state she would Never, but hyped up like that I'm not so sure.

Yeah, it's best not to touch when they're so worked up! The thing is not getting her that worked up in the first place.

I hear you. My hubby sometimes also did things that made me cringe. Like with Einstein, hubby would sometimes pet him for very long while watching TV, which was OK for the most part, but as he got older, I started seeing subtle signs of him not wanting to be pet for that long. So I had to tell my hubby several times to stop petting at a certain point, but hubby was convinced he still wanted to be pet.

So I told him to start doing the "consent test." In other words, stop petting him and see if he asked for more. Several times, I was right, he didn't nudge for more pats and feel asleep eventually, but sometimes he surprised me, and when I thought he had enough, and my husband stopped petting him, he actually asked for more.

For Petra, her sister, the consent test was never needed. She would always ask for more. We had to train her a "that's enough" cue. She was the biggest lovebug. The type of dog that would love to snuggle for hours. I always thought she would have made a great therapy dog. She loved kids and seniors and would flop to the ground for belly rubs. I mean she would be next to the couch wanting to be pet until she fell asleep and would keep her paw up during sleep so to keep contact with the person.

Great idea about asking the trainers. In front of him, lol. I like the upside down chair idea. Right now they're next to the treadmill to keep her from hopping off the sides, but since I'm holding for an in person visit I think I can use them on the couch instead. It's a biiiiig couch (loveseat with chaise lounges on each side) so I may need to put some pillows or blankets there as well. Or maybe drape a blanket over the chair legs so it looks solid. My brain wheels are turning now. 😄

We too have a big couch and with our most recent boarder, the owner no longer wanted him on the couch since they had a baby. So no more couch privilege. The couch also had an extension, but we removed it because we didn't have enough chairs. Boxes or piles of heavy, old Encycolpedia books may have worked too though, although not sure whether he may have messed with them.

This is how it looked like for the several weeks he was with us. We gradually started removing a chair at a time during training and worked on making his Kuranda bed the best place on earth.

JMFS · July 21, 2022

Petra and Gertie are kindred souls. Gerts Never tires of being pet. Esther doesn't, either, but she has to calm down before we will appease her. Once she's settled, though, her head is in someone's lap. Gertie would be an excellent therapy dog, but for that initial, "omg, I am Sooooo happy to see you," wiggle butt behavior. We're working on that with Leah, and she Is improving. If we can get Esther chill before Gerts is out of service age I would like to do it. It's a good way to get Me out in the world, too, so it's therapeutic for everyone. Leah had an interesting tid bit - she learned in her courses that black dogs are often animated because their facial features are harder to read. As though they're cognizant of that need. It sounds reasonable and far fetched at the same time - are dogs really That aware? I think we haven't even scratched the surface of most animals out there. Frogs, for example, since I'm learning about them. There's a gal on YouTube I watch whose frogs are the cutest. When she feeds them, if another frog takes the food intended for someone else, the someone else will often bite the offending frogs head as though to say, "you jerk! That was mine!" Her frogs beg, as does ours. They're surprisingly entertaining creatures. If we could handle them more frequently than every few days (their skin is porous and our oils are bad for them in addition to their potential to carry salmonella) I think we could teach them so much.

I can say Esther is getting Much better with people. Major improvement there. She's not going to go up to people willingly, but she no longer cowers. She's still timid, but that's disappearing faster and faster. Whew! So there's a positive. She's not an unchanging she devil after all! 😆

Rofl, y'alls' couch looks like ours - a giant sleeping ghost. I love my dogs, but the hair, snot, drool, and dirt can go away! So just add one more jog near the window there and you've got our couch. I have Amazon and Chewy boxes aplenty so maybe I'll go that route because I can see Esther squeezing herself into any openings - she's impressively bendy for a dog.

She does okay with the sounds - that one is easy for me to train. It's the sight that I struggle with because I'm not quick enough, and then of course the combination. Hmmm, what do you suppose would happen if volume was on my computer, and visual on the husband's? We sit back-to-back so she would have to turn her head to give each one attention.

Last night I put my foot down and Esther stayed in her kennel with her Orka tire and a treat. We made it through two shows before she started fussing. Given what others are working with around here, I'm thankful for that.

Abbi is still a mess during the day, panting like crazy. The nutty thing is that picking her up and walking her around doesn't work, but taking her over to watch Esther play with her tire stops the panting. I'll take it! Her veterinarian gave us Sileo to give to her, but when the husband gave the correct dosage she fell asleep on his lap and peed a little on him as she slept. He said it was pretty scary because she was so limp. He's picking up the Valium or Xanax today (hoping it's Valium because Xanax didn't do much for her).

Adrienne Farricelli · July 23, 2022

Petra and Gertie are kindred souls. Gerts Never tires of being pet. Esther doesn't, either, but she has to calm down before we will appease her. Once she's settled, though, her head is in someone's lap. Gertie would be an excellent therapy dog, but for that initial, "omg, I am Sooooo happy to see you," wiggle butt behavior. We're working on that with Leah, and she Is improving.

I have been thinking about that, every time you talk about her, reminds me of Petra, they sound very similar in many things.

That's great you have Leah for working on that. It helps so much working on it with compliant people. I had to work on that a lot with Petra too,and my work would have been cut out for me if only I had the right people. At that time we lived in a small, tight-knit town and people and kids were crazy for her and it was so hard telling them to not approach her when she was so wiggly butt and eager to meet and greet. We had just taught her not jump. Not only they didn't listen, but they also treated me as if I was Miss Authority, telling my dogs "oh, no biggy, you just want to come and say hello to me! Aw, we love doggy kisses, give Aunt Mary a kiss, would ya..."

Things got much better taking her on walks in the city and teaching her that not everyone needs to be greeted, and if she ignored people and other dogs walking past them flawlessly, she got liver fed at a rapid speed in a row. We struggled a bit though when we had the occasional person making eye contact with her and saying "oh, what a pretty dog!" and she knew they were talking about her, and that was a predictor of attention, so I had to have several friends practice saying stuff like that and me practicing on getting her to ignore.I didn't want her though to ignore all people though so I progressed to putting "go say hi!" on cue so she would wait for me for permission.

If we can get Esther chill before Gerts is out of service age I would like to do it. It's a good way to get Me out in the world, too, so it's therapeutic for everyone.

That would be great! If you want to go that route, I highly suggest doing the Canine Good Citizen test. It prepares them for this kind of work, and getting them used to being around people shaking our hands and ignoring and many other helpful stuff. I can post a guide for preparing for that if you would like.

Leah had an interesting tid bit - she learned in her courses that black dogs are often animated because their facial features are harder to read. As though they're cognizant of that need. It sounds reasonable and far fetched at the same time - are dogs really That aware? I think we haven't even scratched the surface of most animals out there.

I have heard that too, but then wonder, how in the world do they know they are black? The only thing that I can think of is that they may, by chance, notice how thier body language isn't read easily, and therefore may have to emphasize their body language to get the message across. On the other hand though, on black dogs certain traits are naturally emphasized, for instance, by contrast you notice more the white of their eyes, and their pearly teeth.

Liz Palika though, in a book I have, speculates that those copper or brown markings found on a Doberman, Gordon setter, Rottweiler and Bernese mountain may have the purpose of helping to emphasize when they snarl, while the markings above their eyes (called pips) may help emphasize their eye movements.

Frogs, for example, since I'm learning about them. There's a gal on YouTube I watch whose frogs are the cutest. When she feeds them, if another frog takes the food intended for someone else, the someone else will often bite the offending frogs head as though to say, "you jerk! That was mine!" Her frogs beg, as does ours. They're surprisingly entertaining creatures. If we could handle them more frequently than every few days (their skin is porous and our oils are bad for them in addition to their potential to carry salmonella) I think we could teach them so much.

They sound fascinating! There's so much interesting stuff going on in the animal world.

I can say Esther is getting Much better with people. Major improvement there. She's not going to go up to people willingly, but she no longer cowers. She's still timid, but that's disappearing faster and faster. Whew! So there's a positive. She's not an unchanging she devil after all! 😆

Glad to hear that she's coming along nicely!

Rofl, y'alls' couch looks like ours - a giant sleeping ghost. I love my dogs, but the hair, snot, drool, and dirt can go away! So just add one more jog near the window there and you've got our couch. I have Amazon and Chewy boxes aplenty so maybe I'll go that route because I can see Esther squeezing herself into any openings - she's impressively bendy for a dog.

She does okay with the sounds - that one is easy for me to train. It's the sight that I struggle with because I'm not quick enough, and then of course the combination. Hmmm, what do you suppose would happen if volume was on my computer, and visual on the husband's? We sit back-to-back so she would have to turn her head to give each one attention.

Last night I put my foot down and Esther stayed in her kennel with her Orka tire and a treat. We made it through two shows before she started fussing. Given what others are working with around here, I'm thankful for that.

I am not too sure how it would work out with volume on your computer and the visual on your hubby's. I would imagine she would respond to whatever she finds more salient. The bark could become a predictor of the visual images being played on the other screen.

That's actually great that she did well crated with the food puzzle and you were able to watch two shows. When she started fussing, do you think that was because she was tired of being crated and wanted out? Or she finished her food puzzle and got bored? Or was she attending to something on the TV? Was her crate facing the TV? How far?

I was thinking, an alternative to the cloth over the TV can be a Thunder Cap, which is meant for the dog to wear. It doesn't block all visual, but enough to maybe give you a starting point. I have seen dog owners use it with success for barking at things dogs see from a car. Of course though, it doesn't work for every dog. If Esther still struggles with muzzles she will likely object to this, and it needs a slow introduction with treats just as with a muzzle. Also,some dogs may freak out when they can't see, so it doesn't necessarily work for every dog.

Abbi is still a mess during the day, panting like crazy. The nutty thing is that picking her up and walking her around doesn't work, but taking her over to watch Esther play with her tire stops the panting. I'll take it! Her veterinarian gave us Sileo to give to her, but when the husband gave the correct dosage she fell asleep on his lap and peed a little on him as she slept. He said it was pretty scary because she was so limp. He's picking up the Valium or Xanax today (hoping it's Valium because Xanax didn't do much for her).

I hear you, brings me back to when I had to give my cat Acepromazine because she got easily car sick. Vet gave a low dose and high dose, and one day I needed the high dose because of a longer tip, and she got so sedated, I was worried sick because she was so limp. The medication was called "Killitam" and I thought it almost "killed" my cat.

Acepromazine is now for a good part frowned upon, as it sedates, but it messes with a pet's perception and it's believed to increase sensitivity to noises and more awareness despite being ataxic and unable to do anything about it.

JMFS · July 27, 2022

We're taking all the girls on an adventure soon! Husband found a cabin in Georgia that is near a creek, about 15 minutes away from Blue Ridge. Best part: they allow dogs. I got a gate for the stairs so they can have free reign of the wrap around balcony, and for Abbi I got a playpen made from tent material so the husband doesn't have to hold her her the entire time. He wanted a sling for carrying her because I "make" him go to Esther training, so a sling he got. I've never seen a manly man get so excited over such a thing, haha! I tried to go the stroller route because that's easier for me and I can see her limbs to ensure she's not twisted wrong, but he insisted on the sling. So funny!

I only have to hope that Esther's crate, Abbi's play pen, Gertie's bed, and the gate for the stairs all fit while allowing room for their food as well as our clothes and sundries. Oh, and crochet. Cannot forget crochet! With the sports sedan it wasn't possible, lol, but now I have a small SUV so everything should fit. It's a 6-hour drive so we definitely want to be comfortable!

We talked to Steph about the television and she looked entirely puzzled. She said all they watch is the nature channel and Esther didn't pay one lick of attention to it. Sooooo, that tells me it's us, not her. Steph suggested that rather than trying to soothe Esther, or even get her on her bed, to simply remove her from the room for 2 minutes. No pause, let the TV run and put her in her crate with a toy or treat. Her reasoning was that Esther wants to be with us, and being removed takes away what she wants. When she's calm she gets to come back. If she barks again, out she goes! Husband asks, "how are we supposed to watch shows if we're up and down (by we he means me, buwahaha)?" Steph, "slower." Haha! She's so matter-of-fact and blunt - exactly what he needs!

Saturday and Sunday evening she was removed from the couch and taken to her crate. Last night and Monday I didn't have to do that, but there weren't as many animals, either.

She was of the same opinion as you - we were starting to Reward that behavior, or at least it was becoming a game. Such a fine line sometimes! We had the same thing happen in training. Esther was barking at a puppy that was sitting by the door while his human companions chatted away. We kept calling Esther off with scattered treats; however, that soon turned into a game so Steph said to wait to see if Esther barks, then comes back right away. Sure enough, she did. She was just pumping us for treats! So then we started rewarding self corrections. The puppy moved before we could extinguish the barking, but there was improvement. We got more accolades for being able to call Esther back to us more quickly now.

Oh, and that lady who was trying to get Esther's attention? She works in the strip mall and was walking past again on Saturday, but this time she ignored Esther. Guess my finger wagging worked, lol. She likely thinks I'm mean as can be, but oh well - my training session went far smoother so I'm okay with being the meanie. 😤

Gertrude, on the other hand . . . she's bumped down to 93% perfect, lol. She's too good to sit these days. She looks at me as though to say, "Really, I must sit to go outside? Who am I, Esther?!" Nope, you're my Gerts and you shall sit! And then I get the chuffing snort (it's a highly difficult vocalization to describe) as though she's either laughing or telling me off. Such a stinkpot.

Adrienne Farricelli · July 29, 2022

We're taking all the girls on an adventure soon! Husband found a cabin in Georgia that is near a creek, about 15 minutes away from Blue Ridge. Best part: they allow dogs. I got a gate for the stairs so they can have free reign of the wrap around balcony, and for Abbi I got a playpen made from tent material so the husband doesn't have to hold her her the entire time. He wanted a sling for carrying her because I "make" him go to Esther training, so a sling he got. I've never seen a manly man get so excited over such a thing, haha! I tried to go the stroller route because that's easier for me and I can see her limbs to ensure she's not twisted wrong, but he insisted on the sling. So funny!

I only have to hope that Esther's crate, Abbi's play pen, Gertie's bed, and the gate for the stairs all fit while allowing room for their food as well as our clothes and sundries. Oh, and crochet. Cannot forget crochet! With the sports sedan it wasn't possible, lol, but now I have a small SUV so everything should fit. It's a 6-hour drive so we definitely want to be comfortable!

That's great! I hope all works out well and fits nicely. I have been to Georgia once when hubby was graduating from the Army at Fort Benning. I remember the super humidity, the crocodiles and the heat and it was only May! Being that you're from Florida you're likely used to it, but it was a shock for me coming from Arizona!

We talked to Steph about the television and she looked entirely puzzled. She said all they watch is the nature channel and Esther didn't pay one lick of attention to it. Sooooo, that tells me it's us, not her.

That's interesting! I remember you mentioned this and I came up with several possibilities as to why she may have not barked at the TV in her home. I wouldn't be that quick though to assume it's you, as there may be other factors at play.

Really, a thorough functional assessment would be needed to come closer to the root cause, but even then, we may need to test several hypotheisis. However, Steph had time to observe her over several days so her hypothesis has its weight and I respect that.

I wonder whether she's suspecting it to be an attention-seeking behavior or some minor issue in execution or other factors at play.

Steph suggested that rather than trying to soothe Esther, or even get her on her bed, to simply remove her from the room for 2 minutes. No pause, let the TV run and put her in her crate with a toy or treat. Her reasoning was that Esther wants to be with us, and being removed takes away what she wants. When she's calm she gets to come back. If she barks again, out she goes! Husband asks, "how are we supposed to watch shows if we're up and down (by we he means me, buwahaha)?" Steph, "slower." Haha! She's so matter-of-fact and blunt - exactly what he needs!

Saturday and Sunday evening she was removed from the couch and taken to her crate. Last night and Monday I didn't have to do that, but there weren't as many animals, either.

It sounds like a sort of timeout is being suggested, which is based on negative punishment, but its aversive affect is dampened being that she's being put in the crate WITH a toy or treat.

Overall, not much different from the end goal of having her go to her bed or mat for treats overall, biggest differences being that there is no antecedent arrangement going on (measures to reduce the chances for the behavior/making it less intense), you'll be bringing her there (rather than her going on cue/voluntarily going) and she'll be crated (which can be helpful so that she can't make the same mistake after a short period of time and she has more chance to cool down).

Will Steph be able to work with you on this directly? I feel this would be important for proper execution and safety guidelines.

-For example, you have mentioned that Esther is a very aroused state when she sees trigger on the TV, to the point that you were concerned about your hubby touching her when in this state.

-I also think you mentioned once that she would have gone through the TV given the chance, so I imagine there may be risks of Esther doing damage or getting injured if allowed to rehearse the behavior.

I think this should be discussed with Steph considering that she never witnessed the intensity of the behavior.

-Timing is everything in these cases if we want the dog to make the connection that every time she reacts she's closed in the crate away from family. You may need to use a verbal marker to bridge her action with taking her to the crate considering that it may take some time to get her there.

- What equipment will be used? If we're reaching for the collar, this can be perceived aversively by the dog, unless previously conditioned to it. A drag line attached to the collar or head halter may be needed.

-With timeouts, a dog may quickly learn to play hard to catch (or in the worst case scenario bite) as he/she may start perceiving being reached and accompanied away as a bad thing. However, this can be offset if the dog finds the crate as a great place to be, plus knowing that Esther is great in making connections, after some reps she may come to want to go there since she's be getting a toy or treat.

-If the barking at the trigger is due to fear/ not liking the other dogs, going to the crate may feel as reinforcing as it gives relief, plus she gets a treat on top of that.

So some things to consider. I am not saying to not give this method a try, actually this can provide a tentative answer as to whether she's barking as a way of seeking attention, although there are several subtleties to consider, but I would suggest doing sessions along with Steph so that she can keep track on how things are going, ensure proper execution, monitor that things don't get too intense, and evaluate the effect of competing reinforcers.

If you were to ask me, I prefer to follow Friedman's approach, but every trainer has their personal preferences and techniques, and she knows your dog more than me and may feel that this approach is more suitable for this particular behavior and dog.

She was of the same opinion as you - we were starting to Reward that behavior, or at least it was becoming a game. Such a fine line sometimes! We had the same thing happen in training. Esther was barking at a puppy that was sitting by the door while his human companions chatted away. We kept calling Esther off with scattered treats; however, that soon turned into a game so Steph said to wait to see if Esther barks, then comes back right away. Sure enough, she did.

She was just pumping us for treats! So then we started rewarding self corrections. The puppy moved before we could extinguish the barking, but there was improvement. We got more accolades for being able to call Esther back to us more quickly now.

Talking about behavior chains. If access to the toy or treat supersedes her value of family time, miss Smarty Pants may come to learn that if she barks at the triggers, she'll be closed with a tasty treat.

If her barking at the dogs is due to fear/not liking dogs, she gets a double whammy of reinforcers (being away from the stress (negative reinforcement), and a treat on top of that! (positive reinforcement).

Oh, and that lady who was trying to get Esther's attention? She works in the strip mall and was walking past again on Saturday, but this time she ignored Esther. Guess my finger wagging worked, lol. She likely thinks I'm mean as can be, but oh well - my training session went far smoother so I'm okay with being the meanie. 😤

LOL! We gotta do what we gotta do to protect all our hard work!

Gertrude, on the other hand . . . she's bumped down to 93% perfect, lol. She's too good to sit these days. She looks at me as though to say, "Really, I must sit to go outside? Who am I, Esther?!" Nope, you're my Gerts and you shall sit! And then I get the chuffing snort (it's a highly difficult vocalization to describe) as though she's either laughing or telling me off. Such a stinkpot.

So much personality in this gal! Send her my pats!

Esther Shares, Gertie Does Not

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