Treats management

[FrederykBlot]

Hello

I'm opening this thread because I have so many questions related to treats, and the dog response. Thank in advance for the help you will provide

My understanding in positive reinforcement is the use of lots of treats, and also having them available at all time

I discussed in another post that sometimes I do not have them on me, and that made me have some poor reactions. Being sure we can redirect in case of bad behavior, or capturing good behavior, means we should walk around with a bag full a treats right ?

My pup is 3 months old now, so I guess I should only use high value for every new training / behavior ? And let lesser value treats (like his kibble) more for jackpot, or cues he's already good at right ? (I switch to cooked chicken from hotdogs because hotdogs gave him liquid stools)

How I know I should stop ? when we do targeting, he seems to be able to go all day on that... I cut very little pieces, but still in the end, it can make a lot. Is it ok to go on with an exercise if he hasn't show any signs of wanting to end (I will have to re-supply treats then :))

Also I figured out a bit that after starting using high value treats for training and redirect, he just follow me around and offer sit, in the hope of a treat :) I guess that's better than biting my ankle, but is this expected ? Will this pass ? Should I reward the sit ? His behavior now looks to me more interested than natural :)

 

This is a lot of questions about treats, but I'm struggle a bit to find out what is good, what is too much, what is not...

Thank you for your help

[Adrienne]

I am sorry to hear that you got some poor reactions, was this on his forum? I don' recall seeing that post.

Great questions! Please see my answers/observations below:

My understanding in positive reinforcement is the use of lots of treats, and also having them available at all time

The technical definition of Positive reinforcement training is the addition (+ positive) of something that increases a behavior and strengthens it. 

With this definition in mind, anything that we provide our dogs with, that increases a behavior,  falls under positive reinforcement. It can be a treat, it can be a toy, it can be even our attention for dogs who crave it. 

Treats are commonly used because they are a primary reinforcer, meaning that dogs are innately drawn to them, there is no learning involved to like them. It is one of the easiest, most effective ways to communicate to our dogs that we want that behavior to repeat. On top of this, treats are capable of causing important chemical changes to take place encouraging dogs to learn and helping them overcome emotional states such as fear and anxiety. 

There are also other types of reinforcers we can rely on such as life rewards, but we need to know for sure that the dog finds these reinforcing enough for the behavior to be maintained (prevented from extinguishing).

An example of a life reward is using a dog's eagerness to go out in the yard as a reinforcer. So one may ask for the dog to sit in front of the door and then reinforce the sit by opening the door and allowing the dog outside. What happens though if the dog is scared of the yard or doesn't like the neighbors' dogs who are barking? In such a case, asking the dog to sit to be let out of the yard risks making a dog less likely to sit rather than making it more likely to occur. 

We do not need to use them all the time. As the dog learns the new behavior, we can start giving them on an intermittent schedule, just enough to maintain the behavior and prevent it from extinguishing. You can read more about this here:

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/use-treats-training-dog/

Being sure we can redirect in case of bad behavior, or capturing good behavior, means we should walk around with a bag full a treats right?

There is training and then there is the art of modifying behavior. In training, we can carry treats on us only when we are planning on scheduling a training session. So if I am planning on training a dog to sit or lie down, or do recalls, treats are carried only then. 

When we want to modify behavior, such as capturing calmness, reducing nipping or excessive jumping, we can then carry treats (preferably the dog's kibble if the dog likes it) on us at all time so that we up the chances for catching desired behaviors.

Of course, this is not a requirement, it is just something I like to do and suggest others do the same if they are dealing with challenging behaviors. On top of the dog's kibble, I also like to carry flirt pole on me when dealing with nippy puppies and even some balls in my pocket (yes, I go around with a lot of stuff which is why I love cargo pants with lots of pockets).

Now, this doesn't mean the dog is fed all day long. It just means that on those occasions when the dog isn't in his separated area, and I notice calm behaviors such as lying calmly on a mat or sitting nicely rather than biting I use the kibble/treats to reinforce those behaviors. The good thing is that, as we capture calm behaviors, these calm behaviors start occurring more and more often in the dog's behavior repertoire. With time, the dog learns that it actually feels good to be calm and the kibble/treats can be gradually weaned over time. 

Other times, I may use the flirt pole or long tug toy to redirect a nippy puppy or toss some balls the moment I notice his intent of biting-not once he's biting, but before, because once the pup is attached to my leg, he's too over threshold and less inclined to pay attention and we may be creating a behavior chain. 

My pup is 3 months old now, so I guess I should only use high value for every new training / behavior ? And let lesser value treats (like his kibble) more for jackpot, or cues he's already good at right ? (I switch to cooked chicken from hotdogs because hotdogs gave him liquid stools)

This varies from puppy to puppy. You can gauge how things work based on his response.  If your puppy enjoys his kibble (I like to toss it to make it more fun for a double whammy of play and eating rather than just hand feeding it), it can work well for indoor training and training in areas with little distractions.  If your puppy is isn't much a fan of kibble, then you can use medium-value treats indoors/in areas with little distractions and higher value treats for work outside. 

For the luring stage of training you may find it more practical using something that smells good and that your puppy is willing to follow. For behavior modification, especially on walks, you may want high-value foods that are easy to deliver quickly and that are easy to chew. 

How I know I should stop ? when we do targeting, he seems to be able to go all day on that... I cut very little pieces, but still in the end, it can make a lot. Is it ok to go on with an exercise if he hasn't show any signs of wanting to end (I will have to re-supply treats then :))

I always like to stop before the puppy has a chance of tiring. We want to stop with the pup still eager to train as we have found that that increases motivation in training. 

Here are some tips on recusing calories.

1) Split Treats into Small Pieces

Many dog owners are often surprised when they see how small I can break up the pieces of a regular-sized treat. I often can get as many as 10 to 20 smaller pieces, and each piece can be used to reinforce one desired behavior. This means that with just one treat I can reinforce as many as 10 to 20 behaviors!

So if your dog is small and you have found treats your dog loves, consult with your vet and ask about how many treats your dog can eat a day based on your dog's weight and the treats' caloric count.

Then, once you have the ideal number, split those into small pieces and arrange your training session around that. You can then divide them into groups based on how many times you can train your dog a day, strategically ending the session when you have finished the allotted amount of treats.

2) Look for Low-Calorie Options

The fewer calories a treat has, the more you can provide without surpassing Dr. Freeman's 10 percent rule (treats should comprise no more than 10 percent of your dog's total daily calorie needs Look for treats therefore that are advertised as being very low calorie.

For instance, Bixbi Pocket Trainers provide less than 4 calories per treat. I have used these for training dogs, especially when clients are concerned about their dogs filling up and where every calorie counts.

For example, last time I had a small Yorkie mix that weighed a little less than 7 pounds. Her vet assumed that her caloric requirements were probably around 200 calories/day. With that in mind, considering the 10 percent rule, she would therefore need to not go over 20 calories from treats. At 4 calories per treat, she could get up to 5 treats a day (5x4=20). While 5 treats a day may seem like very little, once you break them up into 4 pieces each, that leads to 20 treats that can be used to reinforce 20 desirable behaviors! There are many other low-calorie options on the market nowadays, like Zuke's Mini Naturals (one of my favorites) which contain just a mere 2 calories per treat!

3) Use Dog Friendly Fruits and Veggies

Many dog owners use fruits and veggies for training their dogs. This is a good option considering that these healthy human foods have low calories which helps dog owners ensure their dogs don't eat more than 10 percent of the daily calories. Board-certified veterinary nutritionist Dr. Deborah E. Linder lists several low-calorie options for dogs on Petfoodology by Cummings Veterinary Medical Center at Tufts University.https://vetnutrition.tufts.edu/2017/12/does-an-apple-a-day-keep-the-vet-away-harmful-vs-healthy-foods-for-pets

Please don't just feed any fruit or veggie you come across without ensuring first that they're not toxic to your dog. For instance, consider that grapes, raisins, nuts, onions and garlic can be harmful and some of them even toxic to dogs.

4) Train With Cheerios

Cheerios are a favorite low-calorie food that can be used to train dogs. They offer the advantage of taking on the smell/taste of treats pretty well, so you can mix them in with other treats/kibble to make them more appetizing.

5) Use Your Dog's Kibble

If you have used up your dog's daily allotted quantity of treats, but would like to train more or capture more desired behaviors, you can keep on rewarding, but this time using your dog's kibble.

Have you ever counted how many pieces of kibble are in your dog's daily meals? Those are many lost opportunities for training! If your dog loves eating his kibble, and you can get your dog to think that kibble is as good as treats, then you'll easily have plenty of training opportunities without having to depend on higher-calorie treats.

Here's the thing: you can persuade your dog into loving to eat kibble by simply making him earn it. The scientific term is "contrafreeloading." This term was coined by animal psychologist Glen Jensen in 1963 who described the phenomenon of animals who come to prefer eating food that requires some effort to obtain versus food offered freely.

To put this in practice, simply measure the recommended daily ratio of kibble you should feed and place it into a treat pouch and feed it throughout the day. If you happen to have any leftovers, you can serve this extra kibble in your dog's bowl, Kong Wobbler or you can organize a fun treasure hunt game. Always consult with your vet if your dog has a health condition (like tummy troubles or low blood glucose) for guidelines.

[Adrienne]

Sorry, just noticed I missed something!

Also I figured out a bit that after starting using high value treats for training and redirect, he just follow me around and offer sit, in the hope of a treat 🙂 I guess that's better than biting my ankle, but is this expected ? Will this pass ? Should I reward the sit ? His behavior now looks to me more interested than natural 🙂

In dog training, we call these "default sits" and they offer many advantages. One main one is that you are helping your puppy make good choices. By encouraging a default sit he is therefore being helped to succeed. 

On top of this, default sits helps your dog learn how to think for himself. You can see the wheels turning in his head as he starts thinking rather than acting impulsively.  Finally, be encouraging default sits you are encouraging your dog to engage in what you would like him to do, rather than focusing on what you don't want him to do. It therefore gives your dog the opportunity to engage in something you like. 

Now something important to consider: When reinforcing default sits, you need to be very careful in what you are reinforcing to prevent other behaviors to inadvertently become part of what is known as a "behavior chain."

For example, it's good to reinforce a default sit when you are walking around the home, and as your dog approaches you, he decides to sit rather than start nipping your legs. In this case, you are reinforcing your dog's sit and helping him make good choices. 

However, problems start if your dog decides to nip your leg as you are walking and then does a default sit right afterwards and you reinforce that. Why? For the simply fact that you risk reinforcing a behavior chain. In other words, you risk your puppy thinking that the nip first is part of the exercise, which of course is not what you want!

In such a case, it is best to not reinforce that default sit and find a strategy that prevents that initial nip from happening.  An initial strategy for this may be training behind a baby gate, exercise pen or indoor dog gate initially so that your puppy can't nip you until the sitting gains a strong reinforcement history so that your pup will feel motivated to keep sitting even once he's no longer behind the baby gate.

Finally, something important to keep in mind is that dogs who repeatedly nip, jump, paw or bark are often over aroused/over stimulated dogs.  It is therefore important to tackle this underlying state of mind so that the dog feel less propense to engage in undesirable behaviors. 

Is your dog misbehaving because he doesn't have anything better to do? Provide him with lots of safe chew toys of different textures,  make sure to rotate them so to keep his interest alive, feed his kibble in food puzzles, do lots of brain games and help him engage in alternate behaviors. 

Is your dog misbehaving because he's tired and overstimulated? Puppies need to nap a lot and they tend to get cranky when sleep-deprived. It's therefore important helping puppies to nap by creating a calm, dark and quiet environment. 

[FrederykBlot]

Hello

 

As mentionned on the other thread on kibbles, Loki does not take them anymore from the bowl. I'm a bit concerned about oxydation as it's open since a month. Still it takes from a Kong or treasure hunt.

 

Thing is I find myself only training with high value treats, or kibbles I put in the same container to take the smell.

 

Is it ok ? Or too much high value will lessen the training efficiency

On walk he get one per good behavior, at home I try sequence to give him one

 

Thank you

 

[Adrienne]

As mentionned on the other thread on kibbles, Loki does not take them anymore from the bowl. I'm a bit concerned about oxydation as it's open since a month. Still it takes from a Kong or treasure hunt.

This is not unusual. In 1963 animal psychologist Glen Jensen conducted a study involving 200 rats where they were given the choice between food offered freely in a bowl and food offered in a food dispenser which required the rats to step on a metal bar several times for the food to be dispensed. Interestingly, the rats preferred the food dispenser option over the food easily obtained through the food bowl. 

Jensens' studies were backed up by several other experiments which obtained similar results. The choice of working for the food was also observed across a variety of species including rats, birds, fish, monkeys and even dogs. Surprisingly, only one animal went against the trend and that was the domesticated cat! This suggests that cats rather be served than work for their food. 

Contra freeloading is the term used to depict this phenomenon of animals choosing food that requires some effort to obtain versus food that is offered freely. Feeding from food dispensers rather than bowls has become a rather common trend now in families with dog and in zoos to offer enrichment and improve the welfare of captive animals. 

 Thing is I find myself only training with high value treats, or kibbles I put in the same container to take the smell. Is it ok ? Or too much high value will lessen the training efficiency. On walk he get one per good behavior, at home I try sequence to give him one.

This is a trick of the trade and many dog trainers suggest that. I have used this strategy myself. It's discussed here and you can see a picture of the treats and kibble I mix in a trail mix fashion.  You will need to see how your pup responds to them. If he's happy and eager to train then that's good! On walks, it's good to go higher value.

 

[FrederykBlot]

We've made this : 

little cooking container with fresh cooked chicken and freshly cut apple pièces, both really high value to him, and we toss in the kibbles he let down at meal time

Seems to do the job not that bad like this : the flavored kibbles would be little less value but still makes him wanna try

[Adrienne]

Look yummy! What a wonderful mix! The kibble will absorb some of the scent of the other goodies. Keeping them together overnight in a zip lock bag can also further increase the aroma and the kibble may soften too from absorbing the moisture.

Fun fact: if there was ever a competition between humans and dogs over who had more taste buds, our dogs would rank rather poorly. With a mere 1700 taste buds compared to our astounding 10,000, contrary to what dog food commercials may try to make us think, the number of a dog's taste buds aren't really that impressive! So if dogs have such poor taste, why are they so eager to eat most of the time? That's because, a dog’s ability to “taste” food, mainly resides in their nose. 

[FrederykBlot]

Hello, 

 

I'm upping this thread because my mind just went blown away about treat value.

 

Loki's ranking is :

- kibble

- random commercial dry treat

- apples

- cooked chicken (which we not always have it dépend on grocery)

- hot dogs (we stopped giving him that because we identified it as a cause of diarrhea. Maybe we had bad quality, of he was too young and his stomach couldn't handle it at the time. It was the first treat ever he got and first weeks we had him it was all he had... Maybe we can try again now that he's older)

- liver paste

 

I didn't figure out how much difference it makes because it hadn't been long we started working during walks and with big stimuli

Most of his training was basic commands, usually at home, and it that case he seemed happy with whatever

 

 

But lately he started to have a problem with the stairs while he didn't before (we never forced him, he just happened to follow us downstairs some times). The stairs get to the door and he was ok to take them to go for the walk

But since 2 days, he stood up, with the envy to follow us, but some fear to get down... I don't know why, I may have seen him missed a step, but really not falling or hurting himself... Is vertigo a possibility also ? 

 

 

Anyway I try to train / counter conditioning by trying luring him on the first step, treating, luring on the second step, treating, then treating only every 2 steps, then every 3, then jackpot in the end, rinse, repeat... Btw, is the the correct way ? And is it ok or I should forbid the stairs and carry him ?

 

 

The point is : didn't work a damn thing unless it was the liver paste !

That's how I understood the difference on a real high value treat, and one just a bit better than the previous one

 

 

 

Discovering that I'm starting rethinking a certain part of training : 

- treating outside always with the liver paste for the recall, leave it, drop it, impulse control with people and other dog

The outside part is getting better but I think with the best value treat, we may get results faster in "fluency", and only then starting to reduce the treat value and the frequency

 

Is this relevant ? Or would there be a risk that he wouldn't respond anymore to the less valuable ones ?

 

From this "discovery" I'm starting to think that some of the important things that were a bit of struggle (looking at me at the smacking sound for example) could advance way more with better treat management

 

 

Thank you for your input

 

 

 

[Adrienne]

But lately he started to have a problem with the stairs while he didn't before (we never forced him, he just happened to follow us downstairs some times). The stairs get to the door and he was ok to take them to go for the walk. But since 2 days, he stood up, with the envy to follow us, but some fear to get down... I don't know why, I may have seen him missed a step, but really not falling or hurting himself... Is vertigo a possibility also ? 

Unless, he's sick for some other reason, vertigo isn't common in dogs as in humans. I would think more orthopedic things can cause fear of stairs and so can visual disturbances. Do you have carpet? Wondering if he could have gotten some static shock and this reminded him of the electric fence.

Also, since he was shocked recently by animal fencing, it may be worthy checking just in case if he has any cuts or abrasions on the skin.  In any case, if this is new behaviors, mention it to your vet. 

Anyway I try to train / counter conditioning by trying luring him on the first step, treating, luring on the second step, treating, then treating only every 2 steps, then every 3, then jackpot in the end, rinse, repeat... Btw, is the the correct way ? And is it ok or I should forbid the stairs and carry him ?

Rather than luring, it may be best simply placing the treats on the steps so that he goes on his on choice. Luring can cause approach/avoidance, where he'll feel like following the food, but then realizes he's doing something scary. 

Discovering that I'm starting rethinking a certain part of training : 

- treating outside always with the liver paste for the recall, leave it, drop it, impulse control with people and other dog

The outside part is getting better but I think with the best value treat, we may get results faster in "fluency", and only then starting to reduce the treat value and the frequency

Is this relevant ? Or would there be a risk that he wouldn't respond anymore to the less valuable ones ?

From this "discovery" I'm starting to think that some of the important things that were a bit of struggle (looking at me at the smacking sound for example) could advance way more with better treat management

I would reserve  the most valuable food for the most pressing issues you are facing for now and use the next high values for outside training and then the rest for indoor training. Once the most pressing issues are solved, you can then reduce the value, but you can offer the high value every now and then if you notice the behavior weakening. I am a fan of mixing treats of varied value so I can use the higher value treats to reinforce outstanding performances as they unroll. 

Once a behavior becomes reliable, you also want to move to an intermittent schedule: https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/brain-training/polishing-up-training/fading-continuous-rewards/

Sure, just like us, dogs will work harder if they know that something very valuable is coming their way. That's why us humans are given pay raises and bonuses as incentives in the workplace. They motivate us more. 

 Care should be taken to not teach a dog to hold off a treat because we will offer a better one. This will teach the dog to purposely refuse a treat in hopes of getting a better one.