Alone time in Playpen

[FrederykBlot]

Hi,

I'll already put some thoughts about this in another thread not specifically related to that, but I prefer put in another thread one, so the playpen related stuff is not lost in the middle of a topic that is not about that : I'm wondering about playpen, and playpen training

My pup Loki usually goes in crate for naps and bedtime. He has no toys in, and get there usually after walk, which finishes his awake session.
Crate training and this schedule seems to work fine, as he usually don't cry much in it, except for the first 2 minutes of attention seeking, but usually fell asleep quite fast in it.

We got a X-pen lately and for me it's supposed to serve another purpose : letting him alone while I do other stuff (house stuff, work stuff...) with him being awake or not, I don't really care. It's just that if he's loose around the house, he'll go on anything he's not supposed to.

About the setup : the X-Pen is link to his bed in crate, and contains a towel on which he loves to lie down, and some of the safe stuff he likes : a rubber chicken, a cow hoove, a rubber ball...

 

I'd like to know about playpen training. Usually crate training is a subject with many discussions on it, but playpen is not as well documented.

 

First we tried to do as crate training : toss food and high value treats when he doesn't see, so once he get in, he sees some good stuff in there, and think of it as something that spawns good stuff

Then aother thing we did was to put him with a chew bone, or lick mat, close the door, and go in and out of the room for reduced periods of time, like 30 secs, 1 min, praise him when we come back, then go again, and repeat. This part is the easy one... he doesn't miss us much here

Then the morning, I fill a Kong with kibble, and go just to get my morning coffee... He goes one minute on the Kong, and then 4 minutes of whining / cry. Of course, I do not open while he's crying, I walk around outside the room and wait a quiet moment, then I enter and free him

 

So I'm wondering if I'm too greedy... 5 min to take a coffee does not seems much to me as the first "alone time"
Should I try something perhaps more enticing than a kibble-filled kong ? I have chicken leg that he loves for chewing??? Should I try my coffee with this, as it's perhaps higher value ?
or 5 min is a minimum, and he will have to deal with it, and so am I ? There will be whining, an extinction burst, but then it will get better.

 

Thanks in advance for the help

 

[Adrienne]

I'd like to know about playpen training. Usually crate training is a subject with many discussions on it, but playpen is not as well documented.

Yes, I agree. I think it's because a play pen being larger requires less conditioning to get a pup used to, but if you're using it for when you need to step away, your approach is spot on since we're talking about teaching a pup to self-sooth and learn to be more independent. 

First we tried to do as crate training : toss food and high value treats when he doesn't see, so once he get in, he sees some good stuff in there, and think of it as something that spawns good stuff. 

Then other thing we did was to put him with a chew bone, or lick mat, close the door, and go in and out of the room for reduced periods of time, like 30 secs, 1 min, praise him when we come back, then go again, and repeat. This part is the easy one... he doesn't miss us much here

Awesome, I like the baby-step, gradated approach! It's good to mix in brief absences with the longer ones so to prevent a pup from noticing an upward trend where things get more challenging, which can be unsettling. 

Then the morning, I fill a Kong with kibble, and go just to get my morning coffee... He goes one minute on the Kong, and then 4 minutes of whining / cry. Of course, I do not open while he's crying, I walk around outside the room and wait a quiet moment, then I enter and free him. So I'm wondering if I'm too greedy... 5 min to take a coffee does not seems much to me as the first "alone time"

Should I try something perhaps more enticing than a kibble-filled kong ? I have chicken leg that he loves for chewing??? Should I try my coffee with this, as it's perhaps higher value ? or 5 min is a minimum, and he will have to deal with it, and so am I ? There will be whining, an extinction burst, but then it will get better.

Mornings can be a bit more challenging for pups as they can be particularly clingy as they haven't seen us the whole night, so we may be more salient than usual. Pups also are full of energy at this time and eager to stretch their legs. So a few romps in the yard, some training, play and sniffing around can help satiate a bit these needs.

Going a bit higher value can certainly help. Sometimes all that is needed is adding to the kibble something that makes it a bit more enticing such as peanut butter or a little bit of plain yogurt. Or you can certainly try using something else your dog likes. If the Kong is too challenging to empty or if the pup isn't that good at it, it can put the pup off in using it so something easier to eat/lick may help. 

Something that can help too is placing the Kong (and even some toys he doesn't see too often) inside the closed  pen in sight so to build up some eagerness for your puppy to have it. And then, when it's coffee time, opening the pen and letting him stay in there. Or if the pen has no cover on top, you can toss kibble in there while it's closed and let your pup see you do that, and when he looks eager, you can let him in to go on his "treasure hunt."

Once your pup gets older and better at at holding a longer stay, you can ask your pup to "stay" as you toss kibble/treats/ chewable edibles around and then as you leave the room you can say enthusiastically "go!" 

Remote monitoring (with a camera or even better a Furbo camera made for dogs) can help too so that we can strategically time our returns in such a way that we come back when the pup is right about to finish eating. 

Here are more ways to work on fostering a sense of independence in puppies:

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/exercises-to-prevent-separation-anxiety-in-puppies/

 

 

[FrederykBlot]

Little advance on this topic.

We tried a much higher value : a beef knee chew
He looooooved it. He spent around 30 min in the playpen, closed, just working on the knee. No whining, no trying to get to us.
30 min around, I went back, open the door, and got the knee back. I did that because I've seen such high value treats are good to be available only when alone in playpen so the association is good like "YAAAYY I ll be alone in the pen, so I can get the super knee !!". Like some articles that says to remove the Kong once he's out

Poor guy was sooooo disappointed... He just wanders around in the pen, sniffing here and there to see if another super treat was coming again
I feel like the bad guy.
He wasn't much up to do anything after that... I tried to initiate some tug, and some obedience, and he was like "meh... whatever, the world is sooo crual"

Is it still a way to go ? He is surprised because it's the first time, but he'll learn that the knee is coming back, and with alone time in pen ?
Today's 30 min was a test. We didn't expect it to be so efficient.
Maybe I try that more regularly for my morning coffee ? Like 10 mins every morning ? To get him to "you get it when you're alone, I get it back when you're not meanwhile you can enjoy as much as you want"

 

[Adrienne]

We tried a much higher value : a beef knee chew He looooooved it. He spent around 30 min in the playpen, closed, just working on the knee. No whining, no trying to get to us. 30 min around, I went back, open the door, and got the knee back. I did that because I've seen such high value treats are good to be available only when alone in playpen so the association is good like "YAAAYY I ll be alone in the pen, so I can get the super knee !!". Like some articles that says to remove the Kong once he's out

Poor guy was sooooo disappointed... He just wanders around in the pen, sniffing here and there to see if another super treat was coming again
I feel like the bad guy. He wasn't much up to do anything after that... I tried to initiate some tug, and some obedience, and he was like "meh... whatever, the world is sooo crual"

Is it still a way to go?

Well, when we work on these separations, we want to use edibles that can be licked/consumed in one setting like a stuffed Kong, Lick mat or  some other type of edible chew. This prevents us from being the "bad guys" removing something the dog was still enjoying which can pave the path towards resource guarding. The goal is to provide the dog with the goodie, and strategically time our return once the puppy is done or close to being done. This leaves you with nothing to remove. The impact removing things can have on dogs was discussed today in a thread just below yours. 

You may find this read helpful to work on ways to prevent resource guarding in puppies.

 

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/the-importance-of-preventing-resource-guarding-in-puppies/

 

Today's 30 min was a test. We didn't expect it to be so efficient. Maybe I try that more regularly for my morning coffee ? Like 10 mins every morning ? To get him to "you get it when you're alone, I get it back when you're not meanwhile you can enjoy as much as you want"

 

I would  simply stick to something that he can eat in one setting. If a stuffed Kong doesn't work for him, you can try a stuffed Toppls (easier for puppies to access). 

I am afraid a beef knee chew may be risky, especially for a young pup. I would suggest checking with your vet. 

 

[FrederykBlot]

Understood

But I have sensed something was wrong. He was relunctant to give it back, and when I got it, he seemed a bit stunned, or lost, and I doubt about what I did quite fast, as it didn't seem to finish as a fully positive experience

I won't do the mistake again. I guess we have to learn at some point. I now know he can stay with an good edible chew around 30 min without thinking about us, and at least thats a good indicator.

 

Yeah I saw the post on resource guarding and hesitated reacting in it, but I thought it would have been redundant.

 

Thanks again for your answer 

 

 

 

[Adrienne]

But I have sensed something was wrong. He was relunctant to give it back, and when I got it, he seemed a bit stunned, or lost, and I doubt about what I did quite fast, as it didn't seem to finish as a fully positive experience.

You were spot on in recognizing something was amiss. Good observation!

Loki is very young so that gives you extra power on preventing resource guarding and establishing a level of trust. I think if you can find the perfect edible that takes time to eat and  attracts him enough and that he can eat/lick in one setting, and is safe, you'll have the perfect solution. 

Keep us posted!

[FrederykBlot]

Got a bit over confident here
During day, I tried with another chew and pup managed to stay almost 45 min in the pen
Chew was buffalo ear, please let me know if you think they aren't safe

I thought I could retry the morning coffee with a 10 min edible chew
When I finished my coffee, he was whining and crying, and the chew was not even half finished
I really thought there would be enough improvement, but the morning clinginess seems to be higher than expected
Maybe for the morning coffee I should try the chew with me in sight, and stick for the playpen only in less clingy times of day

 

Little question here : is there any downsides to give edible chew regularly to a pup ?
I mean, for us, it's like a super joker. When he get one, he works on it depending on the time of the chew, and usually feels more calm afterward
I don't want to abuse it, and give him one each awake session, because I'm afraid it can lose value, or create dependancy or stuff like that
But with the Kong, he wants an easy satisfaction : if it's too much work, he get bored easily, so unless we find a recipe that works, its not much of an option
Indeed the calorie intake is something to take account, but apart from, 

Should I be conservative with the edible chews, or can I indulge a bit more, as it's exactly what they are designed for ?

[Adrienne]

Chew was buffalo ear, please let me know if you think they aren't safe

I would be on the conservative side with a chew like that just because it can be difficult to digest and it can take time to break down. While some dogs may do perfectly fine with them, there is always some risk of intestinal blockages and other issues. It is not easy really finding a chew that is entirely *safe*, which is why I often recommend to consult with a vet as they are the best source for this kind of info because they do surgeries all the time and know which chews are the most problematic and tend to be quite up-to-date on this. Stores of course will be propense to tell you all chews are OK to give, but vets know another side of the story. 

So there are really no 100 percent safe chews, but only "safer" ones. Last time I had a batch of pups spayed/neutered, I asked the vet doing the surgery which chews he thought were OK with young pups and he told me the usual Kongs, food puzzles, snuffle mats and Liki mats were the safer options, but if I really want to give a chew that lasted longer, he told me to go with beef esophagus chews since they tend to break down a lot easier. Bully sticks were also "okish" as long as they were bigger than what would be good for the pups' size so that it cannot be consumed in one sitting and that I would be careful to remove them once they became smaller. But this is just a vet's opinion, you may also find vets who aren't totally OK with bully sticks as they feel that, if a big enough chunk is swallowed, it can cause a blockage too even though it's doesn't happen as frequently as with the infamous rawhides. So I would suggest to ask your vet for info on the best edible chew to give to play it safe. 

I thought I could retry the morning coffee with a 10 min edible chew. When I finished my coffee, he was whining and crying, and the chew was not even half finished
I really thought there would be enough improvement, but the morning clinginess seems to be higher than expected.
Maybe for the morning coffee I should try the chew with me in sight, and stick for the playpen only in less clingy times of day.

If your pup was whining and crying despite the edible chew it may be possible that: the chew wasn't high value enough to compete with your absence, the edible was too much work for him to work on because he was over threshold, and yes, in the morning you may be extra salient as pups come to throw parties to celebrate togetherness after a night of not seeing/interacting with us much. If they have been crated all the night, the last thing they may also want is to be closed again. So it can a combo of all of this. 

You can certainly try giving it with you in sight, and then gradually over some days, you can try moving with your chair a little more and more out of sight, but mix in closer proximities every now and then to prevent your puppy from detecting a trend. Also a little tip that comes to mind: try to occasionally give the chew you provide as well at other times of the day when you are around so that the action of you giving the chew doesn't always become a reliable predictor of you leaving. 

Little question here : is there any downsides to give edible chew regularly to a pup? Should I be conservative with the edible chews, or can I indulge a bit more, as it's exactly what they are designed for ?I mean, for us, it's like a super joker. When he get one, he works on it depending on the time of the chew, and usually feels more calm afterward. I don't want to abuse it, and give him one each awake session, because I'm afraid it can lose value, or create dependancy or stuff like that

The vet I spoke to was comfortable with me giving one beef esophagus every day, but he weighed the pups and therefore knew the foods I fed them and their total calories intake and other things such as their size. So I think this is something best to check with your vet. 

But with the Kong, he wants an easy satisfaction : if it's too much work, he get bored easily, so unless we find a recipe that works, its not much of an option
Indeed the calorie intake is something to take account, but apart from.

 If he refuses to work on the Kong or lick from a Lick-mat  when you are away, but does un-stuff these toys or licks them when you are around, I would take that as a sign that he's too over threshold to enjoy these. If he still refuses to work on these in your presence, then it could be he needs some guidance/help.  It can take some time for a young puppy to learn how to effectively get food out of a Kong. It helps to pack the food in it very loosely so that it comes out easily. Praising him when he gets it out can help foster a sense of accomplishment.

Your puppy is still quite young. In the wild, pups of this age never want to be alone because instinctively they know they are vulnerable. I would aim for gradual departures and keep track on the timing, and make adjustments based on how he does. If there are setbacks, it's too hard for him, if there is progress you can try a little longer. Mix in short absences with the longer ones so that he doesn't predict a trend of things getting progressively more difficult for him. 

The good news is that generally, as puppies mature, things tends to get a little better. Starting between 4 and 8 months, pups go through the flight period where they tend to become more independent. 

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/flight-instinct-period-4-8-months/

 

[FrederykBlot]

Thank for the advice. I didn't think much about praising the Kong of the Lick-mat, while I learned to do it on chew toys like "yes Loki ! we like when you chew on your rubber chicken" (and not on our furniture :))

 

We are now trying to enforced naps in crate but with access to the playpen. I didn't want to do that at first because I was afraid he wouldn't settle in the playpen as he would do in a closed crate, but I was even more afraid that he would not call us from the crate and would just stay in it alone and depressed while waiting for someone to take care of him finally

With access to the playpen, which contains some toys, the cow hoof, I'm more confident that if he's awake, he would go chew on the hoof or on the rubber chicken, and if he's sleeping, he's really sleeping, and not just lying down alone and depressed.

He made some quite long naps lately that had me worried (even if I know you replied to me to sleep him, because of the potential growth spikes :) I'm sorry I'm just anxious by nature :)) : like 4h30, and actually I cracked and opened the crate, and I'm pretty sure I woke him up

I'd feel less remorse to let him a little more alone to go on with my stuff, if he has access to the playpen with toys and chews

First time this morning, after the walk, he went in, got asleep without touching the toys and hoof. Got asleep in the pen btw, not in the crate... maybe the floor is more fresh...

 

Btw, he have 2 days of heat spike, which concurred with his gigantic naps. With Loki big fur, could this make him tired and sleepy during the whole day, and more in shape at the end of the day when the sun start to set ? He was way more energetic in the end of day

[Adrienne]

He made some quite long naps lately that had me worried (even if I know you replied to me to sleep him, because of the potential growth spikes 🙂 I'm sorry I'm just anxious by nature :)) : like 4h30, and actually I cracked and opened the crate, and I'm pretty sure I woke him up.

I understand! When it comes to dogs, I become a worry-worm too. The fact they can't talk to us means that we must try to figure things out and it's not always easy! I often wonder how vets must be able to sleep at night with self-doubts, since with dogs, spared from the ability to talk, they are missing important (and vital!) information and often must just go through periods of just guessing. 

First time this morning, after the walk, he went in, got asleep without touching the toys and hoof. Got asleep in the pen btw, not in the crate... maybe the floor is more fresh...

It could be, since it's getting hot and he has lots of fur. If he avoids it all the time though, I would evaluate whether he may not like it too much and add some toys in there and remove any blankets or towels in it if you had any in there to see if it's a matter of the heat. Also, ensure as he grows that the crate isn't too snug. In the summer dogs like to sleep more spread out rather than curled in a ball so they take more space;)

Btw, he have 2 days of heat spike, which concurred with his gigantic naps. With Loki big fur, could this make him tired and sleepy during the whole day, and more in shape at the end of the day when the sun start to set ? He was way more energetic in the end of day.

Yes, the heat can certainly impact them. Every time summer was around the corner our Rottweilers would get lazy. The first time it happened, I was about to take them to the vet to make sure, because it was so unusual for them. But like yours, they would perk up in the evening.  Then, when fall was in full swing, they would go back to their non-summer energy levels for most of the day. Same with many dogs we had over during the summer months. We had Germans shepherd dogs and great Pyrenees who were always hot no matter how high we would put the A/C on. The GSD always pleaded me to sleep outside in the summer, while the great Pyrenees slept on the bathroom tiles hugging the toilet seat 🙂

Of course, if he acts out of the norm all day long or if any doubts, it's always a good idea to check with the vet to make sure. 

[FrederykBlot]

I'm on a row with bad episode

 

Yesterday, little error, he went to bed for the night with access to the pen.

While he usually goes from 22pm to at least 5am, he made a tantrum at 2am, in the pen, jumping on the fence, whining...

I got down, opened while thinking there could be a need, put him out with no fuss, no look, he had a pee, we went back, in the crate, and closed the pen access

 

Tantrum and whining quite while he usually had no problem with the crate but as we just went out, I played the ignore card...

Finally settled after quite some time, whining again 2 hours after. Ignored again, settled, and last whine was at wake up time

 

Potty time... And he pooped... While he never poop first thing in the morning.. besides it finished liquid... I had a bad feeling about this...

There was indeed a poop accident in the crate... He never pooped at night so I didn't even considered that would be his call... I just thought of excitment with the pen access open and the pee he actually made

 

 

Will that provoque a setback in crate training ? And pooping in there made a négative association ? How do I proceed from here ? Or it's ok and will get back to normal ?

I cleaned with just water. In house accident I also use white vinegar but didn't want to put some in the crate as I used it for the repulsive effect

Will water cleaning be enough ?

 

 

Poor guy should have had an horrible night. He didn't touch his breakfast Kong and fall asleep in the middle of the living room

He had a vaccines booster shot friday but was totally fine saturday and sunday... So I dont think of this to be the issue... Too much fruits as treats can provoke liquid stools and higher poop frequency ?

 

Thank you for the help

[FrederykBlot]

Little glimpse of hope here : this morning has been a bit tough... really low energy, not much up for anything... I guess the night was really bad, if he even slept at all

He must have been on an upset stomach all the time, trying to contain it... poor buddy 

 

He finally ate breakfast in Kong + in Muffin game. Tried to tug on clothes a bit, but finally made on some on toys. He got a super chew and start crashing in the living room. We skipped the morning walk, and put in directly into crate with open pen, and while he starting the nap in the pen, he now settled in the crate. (I finally used baking soda to finish cleaning the crate as I read it's a natural odor remover)

 

That's a little hope for me in the sense that it hasn't traumatized him of the crate, and didn't kill the good training he had with it so far

 

[Adrienne]

Potty time... And he pooped... While he never poop first thing in the morning.. besides it finished liquid... I had a bad feeling about this...There was indeed a poop accident in the crate... He never pooped at night so I didn't even considered that would be his call...I just thought of excitment with the pen access open and the pee he actually made.

Poor baby, it sounds like he was trying to alert you about his tummy troubles. 

 Will that provoque a setback in crate training ? And pooping in there made a négative association ? How do I proceed from here ?  Or it's ok and will get back to normal?

Normally, this is perceived by pups just as an accident. Since your puppy was whining, he showed that he didn't want to poop in his  crate. So this is good, it shows that he has the instinct to keep his crate clean. You will need to be very attentive to take him out before he messes the crate so that you reinforce his not wanting to poop in there. 

I cleaned with just water. In house accident I also use white vinegar but didn't want to put some in the crate as I used it for the  repulsive effect. Will water cleaning be enough ?

I usually recommend using enzyme-based cleaners (made purposely for cleaning puppy accidents, in the USA Nature's Miracle is a popular one)  to remove any lingering scents since dogs have such powerful noses. It helps prevent further accidents, just in case the puppy smells a  previous accident and feel like going there again. If there was bedding in it, that should be washed too. And of course, puppy may need a bath too.

 Poor guy should have had an horrible night. He didn't touch his breakfast Kong and fall asleep in the middle of the living room He had a vaccines booster shot friday but was totally fine saturday and sunday... So I dont think of this to be the issue... Too much fruits as treats can provoke liquid stools and higher poop frequency ?

Anything new fed to a puppy or dog can cause tummy troubles. New treats, new foods, new chews, etc. And of course anything given too much can do that too. If it persists, your pup may need a trip to the vet. 

He finally ate breakfast in Kong + in Muffin game. Tried to tug on clothes a bit, but finally made on some on toys. He got a super chew and  start crashing in the living room. We skipped the morning walk, and put in directly into crate with open pen,  and while he starting the  nap in the pen, he now settled in the crate. (I finally used baking soda to finish cleaning the crate as I read it's a natural odor remover) That's a little hope for me in the sense that it hasn't traumatized him of the crate and didn't kill the good training he had with it so far

 

Happy to hear he is feeling better and that he slept in the crate! 

[FrederykBlot]

Quote

Poor baby, it sounds like he was trying to alert you about his tummy troubles. 

He did, and I feel quite bad about

To me, it was a 2 decisions choice : 

- ignore as it could be attention seeking that I didn't want to reinforce given the fact we were just out and he peed

- go to him in case of a real problem, and take the risk reinforcing "you whine I come"

I made the wrong one

 

 

Other glimpse of hope, last stools were way more solid (sorry for the details :)), so the little tummy seems to be a bit better

[FrederykBlot]

Good news tonight : the tummy problem has passer

He made again a night from 10pm to 6am with no accident whatsover

 

 

Little concern though, he didn't settle until quite a moment in the crate : he whined 10+ min, which is a lot for him lately... This time we were sure the needs were met : he was fed, we saw pee and poop. So I was thinking :

- as the day was spécial in terms of schedule, the session before bedtime may have been a little short

- my biggest fear : a real regression about the crate. Last night should have been horrible, and perhaps now the crate is a less cool place to be

- it's just normal fluctuations. 10+ min is not that big of a deal. Sometimes they just a little less eager to go sleep, like a kid wanting to watch TV a little bit more

 

 

should this be a source of concern and something to address ?

should I redo some crate reinforcement ?

Can I just see how it goes as a one time thing may not be that significant ?

 

Thank you

[Adrienne]

Good news tonight : the tummy problem has passer He made again a night from 10pm to 6am with no accident whatsover

Glad to hear he's feeling better and that he no more accidents in the crate! 

Little concern though, he didn't settle until quite a moment in the crate : he whined 10+ min, which is a lot for him lately... This time we were sure the needs were met : he was fed, we saw pee and poop. So I was thinking :

- as the day was spécial in terms of schedule, the session before bedtime may have been a little short

- my biggest fear : a real regression about the crate. Last night should have been horrible, and perhaps now the crate is a less cool place to be

- it's just normal fluctuations. 10+ min is not that big of a deal. Sometimes they just a little less eager to go sleep, like a kid wanting to watch TV a little bit more

should this be a source of concern and something to address ?

should I redo some crate reinforcement ?

Can I just see how it goes as a one time thing may not be that significant ?

It doesn't hurt to err on the side of caution and keep on working on creating positive associations with the crate. With dogs, I like to always remind them that the crate is a great place to be, even if they enter it voluntarily and seem happy in it. 

[FrederykBlot]

Hello 

 

I'm still posting here because I'm not sure if it's the sequel of Sunday's night or not

I may call more the part of you that worked for a vet rather than the trainer behaviorist, besides I think I even saw some of your article related to that

 

Little Loki is experiencing episodes of diahrrea since then. When I say episodes, it's because it's not really each time he goes to poop :
First poop of the day can be completely fine, noon and afternoon tends to be quite liquid and more frequent, and then in the evening it's better, just a little less solid in the end

I noticed some weird thing in that looks like a little membrane... I thought it was banana that we made him try, but while searching a bit, it may correspond to mucus

I wasn't alarmed the second day because as I said, there are good ones in the day, and bad ones.
Other thing that made us thing it's not that bad, is that he has no other symptoms : he still plays, he's still bitey, he still eats (when in Kong or in muffin game :)), still chews, still loves walks...
But today, it was the same again, and it started to worry me a little more, we thought it would pass alone 

I called the vet, he suggested that can be due to heat. Heat can have digestive consequences, specially given that Loki have such a big fur, and it's his first summer-like temperature since his arrival in the world. That seems to make sense, and fit the fact that stools are better in the morning + evening, but more liquid and more frequent in the day during plain temperature pikes. Told us to wait a bit more if he adapts to temperature or if it decrease a little, and Friday would be time for an appointment if stools are no better

 

I have little questions about this : 

- as you work with a vet, does this actually makes sense ? to me it does, it seems to fit the "time of the day" behavior + Loki's fur, but I'm no professional

- I saw good things about ginger. We are definitelity big ginger consumers at home, and I see lots of places where they say little pinch of ginger powder can work magic for upset stomachs in dogs. What is your opinion about that ? 

 

I'm so sad we won't be able to attend puppy classes tomorrow because of that :(
But safety first !

 

[Adrienne]

I have little questions about this : 

- as you work with a vet, does this actually makes sense ? to me it does, it seems to fit the "time of the day" behavior + Loki's fur, but I'm no professional

I am no longer working for a vet and in any way I am not qualified really to answer this, but what I would do (and this only my personal opinion) I would see the vet just to rule out other things. 

If it persists and you decide to go to the vet, make sure to bring along a stool sample. All you need is a small amount (like about the size of a teaspoon). Make sure it's fresh, not older than 24 hours and that it's stored in a clean container with a tight-fitting lid and label it with your dog's name, contact info, time it was collected. 

- I saw good things about ginger. We are definitelity big ginger consumers at home, and I see lots of places where they say little pinch of ginger powder can work magic for upset stomachs in dogs. What is your opinion about that ? 

When dogs had upset tummies, the most common remedy our vets suggested was a bland diet, but your vet will need to decide if he/she feels it's worthy of a try or not or if he prefers to have you just bring Loki to see him rather than losing time with home remedies. 

I hope his tummy issues resolve soon. 

[Adrienne]

Hi there!

How is Loki doing? 

I hope he is feeling better. 

[FrederykBlot]

Hello Adrienne

 

Thank you for checking on him ! This is appreciated

 

He's doing way better. Last poops has good texture and color, (I'm always feeling weird discussing details of poops lol) and we didn't do anything specific
I think the heat thing may have been real. Also, I'm thinking his digestive system, and immune system are "creating", so it may have reacted to something new :
as you suggested it's better to have edible chews in one setting, we bought varieties of them to have variation of time and taste for him
He may have reacted to one of the new ones 

 

On another note, some parts of the training are way better. He made some wonderful recalls on walks. And we started to have some "leave it" on walks also, if it's not too much value, like dirt, or slugs... "Drop it" is a bit harder, but now that I walk with the liver paste, it has enough value for trading, and it has been quite some times I had to force something out from him

 

Lesser good news are :

- the car : we started again wayyyyy back : going in the crate + treating, crate + engine + treating, little trips + treating the whole time... it won't fight sickness, but maybe having a positive association will compensate a bit the current hatred / fear of the car
- and lately also his harness : his last one may have been too tight, or too small, and it has been really difficult to put it on. While he loooooveeeees the walks, putting the harness was a bit of a fight lately, he was fleeing it
So we bought a bigger one (I felt a real tightness on the chest on the old one, even in the most loose position), and had to start from the beginning : showing the harness + treat, touching in with the harness + treat, just the head + treat...

 

 

little question : can he be starting teenage period ? he's 4 months / 17 weeks now
and we had quite a fright this weekend : he was behaving well, so we wanted to reward him  and let him untied in the yard...
He ended up in the neighbor's garden, and then on the street as her garden is not totally fenced
Rewarding on less control was a bad idea, but as I saw that exploration is one of the big teenage period marker, I'm wondering if it can be the start of it ? 
(I would think it's early, I still have the impression of being in puppyhood with all the teething, and biting :))

 

Thanks for all

 

[Adrienne]

He's doing way better. Last poops has good texture and color, (I'm always feeling weird discussing details of poops lol) and we didn't do anything specific
I think the heat thing may have been real. Also, I'm thinking his digestive system, and immune system are "creating", so it may have reacted to something new :
as you suggested it's better to have edible chews in one setting, we bought varieties of them to have variation of time and taste for him
He may have reacted to one of the new ones.

Glad to hear he is doing better! Ad now worries, I am used to talking about poop and always go on "poop patrols" when working with dogs as it gives so much insight on how they are doing emotionally and physically. 

On another note, some parts of the training are way better. He made some wonderful recalls on walks. And we started to have some "leave it" on walks also, if it's not too much value, like dirt, or slugs... "Drop it" is a bit harder, but now that I walk with the liver paste, it has enough value for trading, and it has been quite some times I had to force something out from him.

It is wonderful you are starting to see some results in your training. You are doing a good job, he's a puppy so he'll feel tempted to mouth things and carry them around. 

Lesser good news are :

- the car : we started again wayyyyy back : going in the crate + treating, crate + engine + treating, little trips + treating the whole time... it won't fight sickness, but maybe having a positive association will compensate a bit the current hatred / fear of the car

If you are successfully going on little trips this is good as long as he looks relaxed and doesn't get sick. The good news is that research shows that most puppies  are expected to outgrow motion sickness by the time they are 1 year old. However, there are exceptions to this rule. My sister-in-law has a beagle who is two and is still vomiting on car rides, especially the longer ones. She never took the time though to desensitize and create positive associations to the car, she avoided the trips. 

You are on the right track though. Persistence of motion sickness can be attributed to never getting used to riding in the car and associating the car with the nausea and/or anxiety-triggering events associated with the car  (noises, car movement, hot environment, unpleasant destinations). To prevent conditioned carsickness even after the ears are fully developed it's important going on car rides where the sickness doesn't occur. 

However, for the longer rides you haven't built up yet to, prescription medications obtained from your veterinarian may be important, before too strong negative associations are formed with the car considering that no amount of training can convince him he doesn't feel unwell,

 and lately also his harness : his last one may have been too tight, or too small, and it has been really difficult to put it on. While he loooooveeeees the walks, putting the harness was a bit of a fight lately, he was fleeing it. So we bought a bigger one (I felt a real tightness on the chest on the old one, even in the most loose position), and had to start from the beginning : showing the harness + treat, touching in with the harness + treat, just the head + treat...

If it was too tight, he may not have liked the restricted feeling or may have cringed when it was snapped on. If you identified what part of putting the harness on he struggled with the most, you can work on that by splitting the action into smaller steps. Like is he disliked when it's snapped on, you can start snapping the clasps without your dog wearing the harness at a distance and tossing your dog s treat. Snapping sound, treat, snapping sound treat, snapping sound, treat until obtaining a positive conditioned emotional response where your dog looks happy hearing the snapping sound. You have started on the right paw  in creating positive associations with the harness. 

little question : can he be starting teenage period ? he's 4 months / 17 weeks now and we had quite a fright this weekend : he was behaving well, so we wanted to reward him  and let him untied in the yard... He ended up in the neighbor's garden, and then on the street as her garden is not totally fenced
Rewarding on less control was a bad idea, but as I saw that exploration is one of the big teenage period marker, I'm wondering if it can be the start of it ? 
(I would think it's early, I still have the impression of being in puppyhood with all the teething, and biting :))

He's currently at the flight stage, which borders the onset of adolescence (which usually starts around 6 months, but may vary based on breed) They tend to want to explore more during this time.

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/flight-instinct-period-4-8-months/

[FrederykBlot]

I have cheated my way with the harness thing

Baby steps had a little payoff, but still he put on a fight at walk time and I didn't want to undo the work done because we had to force the harness onto him

 

First thing first, we really loosen the new one, and I can really feel the difference, specially on the chest part, I'm certain it's way more confortable

 

And I use the ultimate reinforcer : the LickMat with liver paste : I put a little nut of paste on the mat, give him the mat and put the harness on him. He's more docile than ever and it totally work :)

 

I may be using a shortcut, but I still have the feeling that I create positive association with putting the harness on
I still give treats here and there when showing the harness, or walking with the harness

 

 

Is this solution acceptable ?
Or is this a "cheat" that can backfire at some point ?

 

Kind regards

(little picture of the beast with his brand new harness)

 

[JMFS]

You're not forcing him so I think you found a good solution.  :)

[Adrienne]

And I use the ultimate reinforcer : the LickMat with liver paste : I put a little nut of paste on the mat, give him the mat and put the harness on him. He's more docile than ever and it totally work  🙂I may be using a shortcut, but I still have the feeling that I create positive association with putting the harness on I still give treats here and there when showing the harness, or walking with the harnessIs this solution acceptable ?
Or is this a "cheat" that can backfire at some point ?

If he is licking the liver paste from the lickimat as you're putting in on, then, there may be chances you are using it mostly as a distraction. Sure, it is possible, if you make it a routine of providing the lickimat with the paste after grabbing the harness, that he can learn that "every time the harness arrives, I get to lick goodies from the lickmat, but we need to be careful in the way we present things as there may be chances he may also learn that "every time I get to lick goodies from the lickimat, my owner comes with that harness I hate so much."

So it's important the order in which we do things and consider that if he really dislikes  the harness it may impact how he feels with us around him while he's eating (sort of like people who still dread seeing the dentist even if he offers sweet tasting numbing gels before giving the shot or tasty pastes when polishing teeth), so we want to avoid the chances that one day he may feel somewhat unhappy being bothered with us fidgeting with putting a harness on him while he is busy licking.  On top of this, there is likely less learning involved as he's busy licking and sort of passively being involved in having the harness put on. 

 While this is an OK solution for now since you do need a starting point, I would aim to eventually switch things up a bit and rather than putting it on while he's licking it, I would provide a little more clarity by emphasizing that good things happen every time you put on the harness. So I would split the action of putting the harness on in several smaller steps making it clear that going through the steps is what earns him a little lick of liver paste. In other words, every small action becomes a predictor of good things. "Ever time that loop thingy goes over my head, I get something tasty, every time the strap is buckled I get another treat. The harness means good things are happening!

We're after a positive CER: https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/conditioned-emotional-response-cer/

For example: (have a helper feed or put the harness on if you need help for some parts)

Put some liver paste on your finger. Have the harness hidden behind your back and present it to your dog, let him lick a little liver paste from your finger for looking at it, then once your dog is done licking, put it behind your back. Rinse and repeat to make it clear that the appearance of the harness makes good things happen (liver paste!)

Put some liver paste on your finger. Next, have the harness hidden behind your back and present it to your dog, let him lick a little liver paste for your dog sniffing it, then once your dog is done licking, put the harness behind your back. Rinse and repeat to make it clear that the appearance of the harness makes good things happen (liver paste!).

Put some liver paste on your finger. Next, have the harness hidden behind your back and then present it to your dog this time holding it a bit over your dog's head and let him lick a little liver paste, then once your dog is done licking, put the harness behind your back. Rinse and repeat to make it clear that the appearance of the harness makes good things happen (liver paste!).

Put some liver paste on your finger. Next, have the harness hidden behind your back and present it to your dog, this time placing it over the head and let him lick the liver paste from your finger for your dog wearing it, then once your dog is done licking, remove it from over the head, place the harness behind your back. Rinse and repeat to make it clear that wearing the harness' strap over the head makes good things happen (liver paste!).

Put some liver paste in the middle of your hand, close your hand. Next, have the harness hidden behind your back and present it to your dog, this time placing it over the head and then buckling the strap behind the front legs, open your hand and let your dog lick the liver paste, then once your dog is done licking, praise and go on for your walk (or take it off and rinse and repeat if you are working on more positive associations and not going for a walk yet).

Once you have the harness straps fitted properly, you no longer need to adjust it, you can just slide the harness on and off your dog easily, simply putting it over the head and buckling it behind the front legs. Make sure you are holding it the correct way identifying the part that goes over the head and keep the leash already snapped on so that you have a step less. Having the leash snapped on prior will also help you identify which part goes over the head.

The quicker and with most confidence we place it on, the best our pups do. Often pups struggle when we are fidgeting putting it on and losing too much time so if we can be prepared as much as possible so we put it on with some quick steps we will help our pups accept it. 

Loki looks so cute with his new harness! Make sure it's not too loose that he can back out of it. Like with collars, you must be able to fit two fingers between the harness and your dog. 

Happy walks!

Best,

Adrienne 

[FrederykBlot]

Thank you for the details

 

I did that to avoid forcing the harness onto him as he had a bit of stepping back reaction, and I didn't think I could past this reaction in one session.
I still do the harness baby steps though

Good thing is I think I did it in the right order : I come with both the harness and the lick mat, I invite him to put the head in the head buckle with the mat behind it, when he does I fully give the mat, and attach the chest buckle while he's licking, and I let him finish before actually going

 

 

On another note, more related to the playpen / crate : last couple of days have been a bit more difficult to put him in, surely because of the heat.
However, the other concern are still there : he still does not settle alone correctly outside, and I still have to do some things on my own during the day...
Yesterday night, and this morning, there was some chasing him around the house involved, and carrying him in

Should I make more and more crate / pen game ? I don't he has an issue with it... Sometimes before the heat spikes, he went in by himself when we were back from walks. But nowadays, outside is surely cooler than inside

Should I lure him in with high values treat or lick mat, and close behind ? he may associate going in the crate with having something nice, but this feels kind of a trap... could this backfire at some point ?

Or in such circumstances, we do what we can as we can ? (which is currently my way to go :) everyday is a learning possibility as everyday there is something new :))