Alone time in Playpen

[Adrienne]

I did that to avoid forcing the harness onto him as he had a bit of stepping back reaction, and I didn't think I could past this reaction in one session.
I still do the harness baby steps though Good thing is I think I did it in the right order : I come with both the harness and the lick mat, I invite him to put the head in the head buckle with the mat behind it, when he does I fully give the mat, and attach the chest buckle while he's licking, and I let him finish before actually going

Sounds good! Yup, you got the order right, and it's nice that you're inviting him to put the head through the loop and then giving access to the mat as that makes putting the head loop on a predictor of something great to follow. 

On another note, more related to the playpen / crate : last couple of days have been a bit more difficult to put him in, surely because of the heat.
However, the other concern are still there : he still does not settle alone correctly outside, and I still have to do some things on my own during the day...
Yesterday night, and this morning, there was some chasing him around the house involved, and carrying him in.

Well, chasing him around and carrying him to place him in the crate/pen can backfire. Here's why: If you routinely chase your puppy and carry him to only to place him in the pen/crate, in the long run, your puppy will eventually learn to play hard to catch if he doesn't like to be in the pen/crate. 

Puppies are smart this way, they learn through associations, so it's doesn't take long for the puppy to learn this equation: "every time my owner chases me and then carries me, it's to close me in the crate. So from now on I'll be hard to catch. " Playful pups may also feel it's all a game. They'll run around because they want you to chase them in a fun game of "keep-away." 

The problems with this is that, a puppy giving you a hard time being caught (either out of play of not wanting to be closed) will also give you a hard time in other circumstances where you may need to immediately get a hold of your puppy for something more urgent, such as preventing him from rushing towards something dangerous or getting into a road with traffic etc.(hence why we want to create positive associations with collar grabs). It also can put a dent in picking your puppy up.

However, even if you have a puppy who allows you to grab him easily and pick him up, it would be important not to immediately place him in the crate/pen if he doesn't like to be confined there. Instead, if you really need to, carry your puppy around a bit, let him look outside a window, feed him a couple of pieces of kibble as you walk around the home, ask him to perform a couple of trained behaviors like hand target or paw, anything pleasant that breaks a bit the association between being caught and pickedup and being placed in the crate/pen. 

And of course, the ultimate goal remains this one: creating more positive associations with the crate/pen.  

Should I make more and more crate / pen game ? I don't he has an issue with it... Sometimes before the heat spikes, he went in by himself when we were back from walks. But nowadays, outside is surely cooler than inside.

Yes! Triple yes! It's always good to do this, even with pups who seem to like their crates, just to never give their willingness to get inside a crate for granted. Here's the thing: dogs are social animals, they want to be with us.  They dread being left alone. With COVID19 there are thousands of owners struggling with pups who don't want to be left alone.  Learning to be more independent is something they need to learn. With a puppy who isn't eager to be confined, it is even more important making those crates and pen wonderful places. They should be perceived as Doggy Disneyland! 

Every now and then, when the pen is open and your puppy is distracted, hide treats in there and in the crate and randomly place in there too a variety of toys your puppy doesn't see too often. This will help keep each visit positive so he'll want to visit it more and more. 

However, it would be important finding a way to make the pen area more appealing if he's dreading going in there because it's hot. You can try cooling mats for him to lay on to keep him cooler or maybe the pen could be placed on the kitchen tiles so he can be comfortable? 

Should I lure him in with high values treat or lick mat, and close behind ? he may associate going in the crate with having something nice, but this feels kind of a trap... could this backfire at some point? Or in such circumstances, we do what we can as we can ? (which is currently my way to go 🙂 everyday is a learning possibility as everyday there is something new :))

Using food as a lure to get your puppy to enter a crate/pen  can also backfire in the long run.  It may work once, it may work twice, or maybe even longer but a day may come when your puppy will hold back as if thinking: "Wait a minute, this is a trap! Every time food is tossed in the crate,  the door is then closed behind me. " Of course, this is more likely to happen if your puppy doesn't like being in the crate to begin with. 

This is known as "lure trap" and the puppy or dog may even learn to not fully trust food that is offered because it predicts something unpleasant is going to happen. On top of this, using food to lure a puppy in the crate may lead to problems that day when you may need to close your puppy in an emergency and you don't have food readily handy. 

As suggested in the crate games, a lure is OK initially, but I Iike to fade food lures early on as explained in the crate article below under the section "a word about lures." 

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/video-archive/love-the-crate/

Until you can work on fading the food lure, and getting a happy response to the "crate!" cue, rather than running after him or luring him in, it would be best if you could get him to voluntarily  want to be crated/placed in the pen by building anticipation. This is covered as well in the love the crate section (article link above) under "build anticipation." You want your pup to plead you to be crated/placed in the pen because something in there is really tempting him!

Of course, it also helps to coordinate your pup's nap times/crate time with your longer lasting errands so that you can make the most of that time and that way you can leave for briefer periods outside of his napping time. 

I would also encourage to get your pup used to you leaving with some fun hide and seek games, treasure hunts (where your pup holds a sit/ stay down stay/ while you scatter a few kibble/treats around  and you release him  by saying "go" and you leave briefly while he goes on the hunt), destination nowhere games, and calm departures and arrivals as explained here:

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/exercises-to-prevent-separation-anxiety-in-puppies/

Hope this helps!

I wish you best of luck with Loki in these days. 

Best,

Adrienne 

[FrederykBlot]

Hello,

 

I'm glad the forum is back. I'm proud not having too much questions since it has been such a long time :)

 

- Loki is growing good and beautiful. He started to become a redhead :D :D (see attached pictures :))

 

- We're becoming 5,5 mo. It seems he's having a new teething period. He's chewing a lot more, and with more strength. But on this, we stopped trying to preserve chews, bones, and so... He's getting more bones and chews than ever, because without them, it's on furnitures and with mollars that are now out, it's quicker to kill a chair or wood table

 

- I finally start to wake up around 8AM, and the end of sleep deprivation is a life saver. 7AM / 8AM is still early, but I do not feel like a zombie all day anymore

 

- His sleep needs seemed to have evolved. Specially the evening nap, that we used for dinner. Usually after a big walk / awake session, we put him to sleep in the playpen at 7PM (he even goes in by himself) and eat until 8:30PM something like that. But lately, he won't go again by himself, even throw some whining and barking when being put in, and awakes in less than an hour. It is like a real regression ? or just changing circumstances ? I don't think he hates the playpen as enjoy doing pen games like IN and OUT... But yeah, it seems just like early evening is not a nap time anymore

 

- We receive many people and family lately, so the schedule has been disrupted. No more naps in the pen in the morning nor in the evening. Lots of bones and high value chews to keep him busy, while we eat, or take the aperitif... It went well globally, but I hope being back to normal once the people period will pass won't be too hard. 
We even tried to put him in the pen in the same room as us when we were eating desserts (because he sometimes finished his chews before we ended eating) and it was ok : a little whining, but he mostly sits quietly hoping to be brought back. We didn't let him very long, so it didn't became a pain for him

 

- outside "leave it" and "drop it" are still difficult, and recalls can be either superb, or just total ignore... I'm starting to wonder it teenage time isn't beginning, specially with the new teething thing

 

- he likes to hump other dogs : what should we do about that ? some owners are ok and let their dogs decide if they're ok with that or... some owners aren't... what should be done ? I heard it was a dominance thing as with its age it's not likely sexual... Will he grow dominant on us or others if we allow that ? he never humps me, sometimes my gf

 

- I'm a bit jealous of something, he seems to be really more into my gf than into me, whereas I'm the one taking the most time for him :) But he plays more easily with her, whines when she goes out his sight, and on morning she has a bigger party than me... but she also get more biting, and a little humping too... can this be a gender thing ? can it be something I did ? As I'm doing the most obedience, maybe I am the "annoying guy that gives orders" ? 

 

I was hoping to send just an update message, but I guess they are always questions about raising puppies :)

 

[Adrienne Farricelli]

Glad too the forum is back up and working, we had tech support work on cracking a very tough case, but glad it's over and all is back to normal. See my observations in bold. 

- Loki is growing good and beautiful. He started to become a redhead 😄 😄 (see attached pictures :))

Aww... that face! I did see some black dogs turn reddish especially as spring/summer is around the corner as the result of the sun exposure. 

- We're becoming 5,5 mo. It seems he's having a new teething period. He's chewing a lot more, and with more strength. But on this, we stopped trying to preserve chews, bones, and so... He's getting more bones and chews than ever, because without them, it's on furnitures and with mollars that are now out, it's quicker to kill a chair or wood table.

It's called the "second teething stage" which takes place between the fourth and ninth month. During this time, pups may be more destructive than ever now since they have most of their permanent teeth in and have stronger jaws. 

- His sleep needs seemed to have evolved. Specially the evening nap, that we used for dinner. Usually after a big walk / awake session, we put him to sleep in the playpen at 7PM (he even goes in by himself) and eat until 8:30PM something like that. But lately, he won't go again by himself, even throw some whining and barking when being put in, and awakes in less than an hour. It is like a real regression ? or just changing circumstances ? I don't think he hates the playpen as enjoy doing pen games like IN and OUT... But yeah, it seems just like early evening is not a nap time anymore

- We receive many people and family lately, so the schedule has been disrupted. No more naps in the pen in the morning nor in the evening. Lots of bones and high value chews to keep him busy, while we eat, or take the aperitif... It went well globally, but I hope being back to normal once the people period will pass won't be too hard. 
We even tried to put him in the pen in the same room as us when we were eating desserts (because he sometimes finished his chews before we ended eating) and it was ok : a little whining, but he mostly sits quietly hoping to be brought back. We didn't let him very long, so it didn't became a pain for him

Is this after your puppy has dinner? Many pups have lots of energy shortly after eating and some have "post-prandial zoomies." The change of routine you mention though may have an impact too. Perhaps guests are disrupting a bit his sleep or he has fear of missing out. Also we must factor in the fact that he's grown up more, so he may not need as much sleep as when he was younger. 

- outside "leave it" and "drop it" are still difficult, and recalls can be either superb, or just total ignore... I'm starting to wonder it teenage time isn't beginning, specially with the new teething thing

At five and a half months, he's at the flight stage, which coincides with the adolescent stage and that can impact recalls.

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/flight-instinct-period-4-8-months/

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/survive-dogs-adolescent-stage/

I would evaluate in what situation/situations he failed to leave it, drop it and come when called and gradually work up the challenge. 

- he likes to hump other dogs : what should we do about that ? some owners are ok and let their dogs decide if they're ok with that or... some owners aren't... what should be done ? I heard it was a dominance thing as with its age it's not likely sexual... Will he grow dominant on us or others if we allow that ? he never humps me, sometimes my gf

Is Loki neutered?  Unless a dog is intact (not neutered) and is around a female in heat, in most cases humping is carried out for other reasons that have nothing really to do with reproduction.  Indeed, the behavior of humping other puppies starts early, as early as dating back to the days puppies were at the breeder's homes living with their littermates and mom. Any observant breeder can attest that. 

Puppies hump in play and it's a totally natural behavior. When puppies play, they are enacting several aspects that are present in adult life and these may include even some reproductive behaviors. Just as children practice play behaviors that mimic chores that occur in adulthood such as cooking, playing doctor or getting married, puppies often incorporate in play hunting elements such as stalking, chasing and pouncing, fighting elements ( such as pinning down, biting necks), fleeing elements (such as being chased) and even courtship elements (mounting).

Sometimes, we see humping due to overstimulation/excess excitement or stress. Dog parks or doggy day cares may just be too much for certain pups and humping in this case, acts a stress releaser and can be highly self-reinforcing. Some dogs who therefore feel insecure in new environments may just resort to humping other dogs almost obsessively out of stress and confusion. It can therefore be classified as a possible displacement behavior in dogs. It's therefore important to carefully watch the dog for any subtle or unrecognized stress signals. Yawning, scratching for no apparent reason, lip licking, pacing and whining may be signs of an over stimulated and stressed dog.

As to whether to stop it, you may hear various different "takes" on this. My personal perspective is that, as long as the puppies playing look happy and are having fun, there is no need to intervene. However, things start getting problematic if one puppy is pestering another puppy and the other puppy is trying to make the other dog stop.  This can turn problematic, especially as dogs mature, according to a study, excess mounting at dog parks led to aggression 85 percent of the time. 

Here are some tips for stopping problematic humping  of other dogs.

 -Consider that the behavior can be self-rewarding so avoid allowing your dog to rehearse this behavior over and over as it can become quite habit-forming.

-Intervene early. In general, with humping behaviors directed towards other dogs, the earlier the behavior is tackled, the better the outcome. A dog who has rehearsed the humping behavior for years is going to be more difficult to tackle compared to a dog who has just started. On top of this, a dog who will not redirect from humping (like upon being called) may be too far gone to really listen and redirect so could end up being attacked when the dog on the receiving end has had enough and decides to take the matter in his own "paws" so to say.

-For stress humpers, ensure these dogs get enough quality sleep and that they are not exposed to too much overstimulation. Day cares and dog parks may be just too much for these dogs. It may help to try less overstimulating exposures such as organized walks with other dogs or small play groups with dogs who help the humper self regulate.

-As tempting as it can be to simply pull the dog off, every time he or she humps other dogs, this method risks backfiring. By pulling the dog off without dealing with the underlying issue, the dog risks getting more aroused and frustrated.

-Aim to work on calm interactions around other dogs. Group obedience classes, walks, hikes, can teach humper dogs other more controlled ways to interact that doesn't involve humping. 

While we there are several underlying causes for dogs humping other dogs, it's important to realize that humping is a behavior that some dogs may tolerate, but it's one big provoking factor for dogs fights.

Here's the thing: dogs are very routine-oriented beings and when they rehearse behaviors over and over, they get stuck into their habits and practice makes perfect. When dogs therefore get to rehearse problematic behaviors over and over such as humping, it can become quite habit-forming and eventually it may become their default way for them to want to interact with other dogs. 

Humping people may also occur due to overstimulation, or a way to seek interaction/attention.  It can also be a sign of a cranky, tired puppy. Just like tired toddlers, puppies may start to misbehave when they are in dire need for a nap. Have you noticed when the humping your GF seems to occur the most?

Dominance has turned out of favor when it comes to explaining dog behavior. Most canine behavior problems stem from insecurity and/or a desire to seek and maintain safety and comfort  or gain some type of reinforcement– not from a desire to establish higher rank. In reality, rather than vying for top dog position, when dogs do the things they do, that are often driven by a variety of other motivations, which can include genetics, socialization, available resources, fear, conflicts, learning, etc. 

- I'm a bit jealous of something, he seems to be really more into my gf than into me, whereas I'm the one taking the most time for him 🙂 But he plays more easily with her, whines when she goes out his sight, and on morning she has a bigger party than me... but she also get more biting, and a little humping too... can this be a gender thing ? can it be something I did ? As I'm doing the most obedience, maybe I am the "annoying guy that gives orders" ? 

There can be several causes for this, and we can only speculate. If you are the one doing the feeding, training and walking the dog, while your girlfriend gains a lot of adoration from Loki it can be that, since she may be more lax on some rules, Loki may stick to her side more because he knows he can get away from things more. It could he's drawn to her tone of voice (female voices often entice dogs to play and are great praising/encouragement voices) while male voices can sometimes shut dogs down a bit more, being on the deeper tone. It could be if he sees her less than you, she's more salient and therefore gets a bigger greeting. 

If this is a recent change, think a bit back in time and evaluate whether something negative may have happened. When you think about negative, consider that it must be negative from your dog's perspective not yours. This means it can be anything as innocent as you putting ear drops in your dog's ears, giving him a bath or trimming his nails if these are activities Loki doesn't enjoy.  Just a few thoughts!

[JMFS]

Oh my gosh I Love his little mane.  His hair is wild and that's adorable!

[FrederykBlot]

Oh my gosh I Love his little mane.  His hair is wild and that's adorable!

Thanks ! He's like this popular guy in high school, wild hair and attitude :D :D

 

Adrienne, thanks for all the details and explanations, it was supposed to be more of an update message, but you still gave priceless information

 

It's called the "second teething stage" which takes place between the fourth and ninth month. During this time, pups may be more destructive than ever now since they have most of their permanent teeth in and have stronger jaws. 
[...]
At five and a half months, he's at the flight stage, which coincides with the adolescent stage and that can impact recalls.

I really think we start to be on teenage period : the new teething phase, the flight period you mentioned, a new will to go on the couches again just recently while it was something that was out of the picture lately...

 

[humping explanation]

For now, we let it in the neighborhood. Owners are really more at ease with that, and we let the dogs communicate to each others what is ok and what is not.
It helped already, because he has been put down quite some time after trying too much mounting, and did it a little less after that

It's in puppy school (not the same country, we live next to a border, and there was no puppy school with adequate language where we live) that people are less ok with letting the dogs handle the mounting themselves, so in that case, we just pull off when mounting, and let them play if more adequate

I don't think it's stress of fear for Loki. He's always on the best mood to meet other dogs. Even when being put down by other older dogs, he still goes to them to play (a bit calmer after usually)

I'm a bit on the same side as you are about it : let the dogs decide and communicate with each others

On my GF, we really think it's more a case of attention seeking, specially lately as he seems to develop some clinginess on her, as I mentioned on the post

 

[GF preference]

Except for the obedience I do a bit more, I do not see something special I would have done. We brush him together, we equivalent on walks (morning is me, pre-bedtime is her, early evening is both). 

On major difference is my desk if upstairs, so during the afternoon he sees her the most, and naps in her desk, at her feet... so perhaps he develops the fact that she's more present, hence more trusty, hence she's the favorite... We're thinking switching desks, and perhaps alternating, like a week each, to avoid developing some side

I say I'm jealous more for the joke, but the problem involved is it's starting to becoming clinginess. He seems to have more attention seeking behavior geared toward her, including chewing on her things (desk, desk chair, table chair...) sometimes I try to play with him to redirect the bad behavior, but he doesn't care, and would play fetch with her

I may be wondering, maybe he sees her more, but want more "interactive" time with her : I'm doing most of the obdience, when feeding, I play with Kong, treat balls, do the Muffin game, so maybe he wants her to interact more with him and not just "be there with him while doing nothing relevant"... It seems to me that the time with her is more passive : he would nap in her desk, or would just be around in the garden pre-bedtime while she's managing thing...

I also think the gender thing, and voice thing plays a role

I tried hand feeding a bit lately to see, but it doesn't change anything, so I don't think he has a problem with me

 

Thanks again for all the help and the detailed explanation

[JMFS]

Now that I've had a moment to read through, I have additional insight on the GF preference.  My husband does like . . . zero training.  I do Everything except for the very first early morning potty break (and I'll gladly do Everything else if I don't have to wake up early, lol).  Yet, they always want to lie next to him on the couch.  I think it's because they consider him more of a playmate.  Kind of how Adrienne says female voices entice play, I think the fact that he doesn't discipline, train, feed, cut nails, squeeze glands, take to the vet, exercise, bathe, put in the truck, etc . . . the girls that they think he's just one of them. 

They know he's not a dog, but they know he's not the boss (ha!).  He's also 10 times more relaxed than I am - I'm under high stress these days and who the heck wants to be around that energy when trying to chill?!  I also get up from the couch 5 or more times in the 2 hours we're on it, which means everyone has to move if they're next to me.  He's like a bump on a log so there are no disruptions. 

(Don't get me wrong, this isn't a complaint - he works very hard during the day and has earned this reward - he also does most of the cooking, which reinforces the justification for that reward, lol.  I'm the one who insists dogs must be at least 40 pounds to qualify for our household and he's not comfortable with anything over 20.  He'll help when I ask, but otherwise he leaves it to me and I'm good with that.)  His voice is usually more friendly, or at the least less authoritarian, while mine is friendly but stern.  I don't allow them to flop all over me (with my arthritis it's difficult for me to sit comfortably and any weight on one side or the other can cause searing pain) while he's essentially a pillow for them.  He scratches them constantly where my hands are usually busy with crochet.  He doesn't mind licking as much as I do and I give corrections for licks where it takes him a second to realize he's being licked and needs to give a correction (he lets Abbi lick him as long as she wants to, but I can't stand it so I'm training him, too).

If I invite them over to me they happily come hang out.  Those are some observations from my experience for your reference.  :)  I think it's because he's a calmer soul than me, haha.

[FrederykBlot]

Thank you for that insights, it makes sense

With my GF it's like the other way around. She never does the morning. I do most of the thing from early morning to early evening, but as she didn't have to do the morning and most of the day, she glady does the evening while I'm going to bed more early, or take charge when I'm fully busy with work or else
Their session in the evening is more chilling in the yard

And she's definitely calmer and less anxious and perfectionist than I am. So he may be more at ease with her as he may sense that the atmosphere around is more peaceful.
But I'm getting better with that with time passing by :)

I think the boss thing can also have a part, because I noticed some of the behavior he does not have with me : he never humps me, and very rarely goes for my feet now...
I'm not sure if it's because he thinks "he's the boss, I shouldn't do that to him" whereas with her it's more "hey buddy / friend, let's play together" or just plain clinginess to her because of the other stuff mentioned

 

The actual only fear with this for us is the possibility that this is preparing the road for a potential big separation anxiety
But she will go back to her office several times a week now, and we may end up switching desks at home, so he gets used to her absence

[Adrienne Farricelli]

"The actual only fear with this for us is the possibility that this is preparing the road for a potential big separation anxiety
But she will go back to her office several times a week now, and we may end up switching desks at home, so he gets used to her absence."

If I recall well, not too long ago your girlfriend was away for some days and Loki seemed to be OK being only with you, would you say he has become more clingy/attached to her since then?

How is he when your girlfriend steps outside for a bit?

If he is getting too clingy with her, here are tips for dogs who follow around: https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/following-owners-around-house/

Here is a thread with some tips if he seems to have trouble coping with her leaving:

https://forum.braintraining4dogs.com/topic/278-separation-anxiety/?tab=comments#comment-1411

 

[FrederykBlot]

Hello,

Thank you for all the links that will help

I guess it's not that bad of a clinginess for now : she have a bigger party in the morning, and he would whine and cry a bit when she leaves home for the office
Also he would cry in front of her desk when she close the door for a conf call... but when she's out and I'm using the downstairs, he would also sleep at my feet, or in the crate which is in this room (we actually love when he does that, because it shows that he has no problem with the crate)

If she's not there but I'm here, he gladly hangs around with me

 

But actually, now we will have to work on leaving the house with him awake.
We try to implement a lot of the "loving crate / pen" stuff : we're playing IN and OUT, closing the pen and going out for a few minutes, and in training it goes well
But when we try using high time stuff like longer chews, he wouldn't stay on it too long, and would want to come out... whereas he can chew long while we're all in the living room, as he can see us...

But soon we will have to go for our vaccines shot and will have to leave him alone, and also visit some friends for a few hours

And as you mentioned, it is harder to time naps because he really seems to need less sleep during the day

If we just go out while he's in the pen, giving him a chew, and just increasing time, is it ok ? I'm pretty sure he will whine after a few minutes but starting to implement he will see that it's ok and we will come back

I have trouble picturing a scenario when he wouldn't whine and go full on his chew, even high value

 

I guess this problem is also on us, because with home office, we didn't train much being alone in the house in the pen, and we're starting to see it as a little blocking

 

 

[JMFS]

5 hours ago, FrederykBlot said:

I guess this problem is also on us, because with home office, we didn't train much being alone in the house in the pen, and we're starting to see it as a little blocking

From several articles I've read about dogs being adopted during the pandemic this is a super common issue now.  I think you're on the right track, though, and you always keep Loki's happiness and well-being in mind.  He's in excellent care!

[Adrienne Farricelli]

If we just go out while he's in the pen, giving him a chew, and just increasing time, is it ok ? I'm pretty sure he will whine after a few minutes but starting to implement he will see that it's ok and we will come back

I prefer to mix in shorter absences with the longer ones so that the dog doesn't sense/predict an increase in difficulty. You may find the general protocols listed in the below thread helpful, although, I am not sure if you're on time to work on this if your vaccine appointments are coming up very soon.

 

[FrederykBlot]

Wow, thank you for the link, it's all very detailed and precise

 

Actually, from reading this, I'm starting to think I may be over dramatizing things, making the thing looks like big separation anxiety while it's just normal little FOMO  because :

- we don't have a departure ritual, so he doesn't have stress related to the door, or us taking keys and jackets

- we have a camera in the pen, as it was the napping place, and usually, after whining for a few minutes, because he would prefer to be out, he would settle. We never sure if he's asleep as we can't see the eyes, but most of the time he's lied down

- I'm not sure if he loves the crate / pen, but at least, we're sure he do not hate them. They're both always accessible, and it already happens that he chose himself to go in(more the crate as it's in the office, and while me / my gf work, he would come nap at our feet usually, but he sometimes goes in the crate without us telling him to) (for the pen it's usally more often to see if there are treats in, as I often put some high value treats in at random, just to show that it's a cool spot) I'm sure that if it was places of fear and distress for him, he wouldn't go in by himself

- I was quite unsure, because it does not play alone in with the chews, and toys we keep in, but if he sleeps or just chill / lie down there, I guess who cares what he does in, if he's not showing signs of distress

- we had the 10 minutes rule, taken from nurses for babies in maternity services : if the crying is more than 10 minutes, it's a real problem, and he would be taken out. If it less it's just "I'd rather be out" but a no distress settle. => he never broke this rule

 

 

I'm sorry for the time usage, for something that may be me overreacting, and a bit afraid perhaps to let go while he would be able to cope with it more easily that I think

Maybe it's actually me that need the training to put him in the pen, run short errands, get back and see that he's totally ok :)

I think we'll try more of that, with monitoring of the camera to unsure he never goes above threshold

 

[FrederykBlot]

I prefer to talk on this part in another message, so the distinction is more clear, as this post starting to get several things mixed in :)

 

But I guess we can't have wins and victories everywhere : while the fences thing is definitely over, and the car is getting wayyyyyyy better (last vomit was several long trips ago \o/ ), his relunctance to go to the nap in pen in the evening is starting to be bothersome : this is the time we usually had to make dinner, and we used it also to have a little recess, to eat, and watch a little ep of some show (Criminal Minds actually, which is wayyyyy good :) :))

 

You already give me lots of insights and advices for that, and I'm really thankful, but I have some questions and concerns a bit more specific that may help finding how to cope with it the best : 

- yesterday, when back from the walk I called the "to the pen" cue, but he stood at the yard door. Before the schedule was walk ==> nap, he even went in by himself
You told me that he may need to sleep less because of him being older, but the fact that he's not responding to a cue he did respond to before, can it be caused by him going teenager ? it looks like a flight think : "nop nop I don't want to go in there now, I'm better off in the yard"

- I may have messed up here, but I try to grab him to put him there, and he had really avoidance moves, and even snapped at me for the first time... I really understood the message "I don't want to be grabbed to be put in" so I left him alone. But it's not just the relunctance of being grabbed for the pen... Being grabbed seems to have regressed, even for going out of the car. Should we re-train that ? if yes, how ? grabbing + treating, grabbing + treating + walking around + treating ?

- is the fact that he snapped a form of aggression that I should really watch out ? on normal circumstances, he doesn't have any sense of aggressivity, he's playful and nice, and for me it was just a message like "please don't do that, I don't like it", like when he growled one time

- You said "luring and closing" could backfire and it may be seen like a trap. But is asking for the cue "pen", then closing, then rewarding and go for our dinner is also a form of luring and trapping ?(for me luring is throwing a treat in, and closing behind him while he does not see because he's going for the treat) The downside for him would be being in longer than the treat, and maybe then use the 10 min rule to see if he settles

- is this is also trapping, I'm not sure at all how we should proceed. To me it's not like he doesn't like the pen, of feels stressful in it, because as I mentioned in the last post, he goes in to search for spawning treats, or to get some toys. Besides I reinforce good things in the pen on a regular basis, like playing together inside, or doing obedience inside... To me it looks like a toddler behavior like "noooo i'm a grown up now ! naps are for babiiiieeesss" :)

 

 

I have again lots of questions, but maybe having them a bit more detailed and specific, would be easier to address

Thank in advance for your help

[Adrienne Farricelli]

21 hours ago, FrederykBlot said:

Wow, thank you for the link, it's all very detailed and precise

 

Actually, from reading this, I'm starting to think I may be over dramatizing things, making the thing looks like big separation anxiety while it's just normal little FOMO  because :

- we don't have a departure ritual, so he doesn't have stress related to the door, or us taking keys and jackets

- we have a camera in the pen, as it was the napping place, and usually, after whining for a few minutes, because he would prefer to be out, he would settle. We never sure if he's asleep as we can't see the eyes, but most of the time he's lied down

- I'm not sure if he loves the crate / pen, but at least, we're sure he do not hate them. They're both always accessible, and it already happens that he chose himself to go in(more the crate as it's in the office, and while me / my gf work, he would come nap at our feet usually, but he sometimes goes in the crate without us telling him to) (for the pen it's usally more often to see if there are treats in, as I often put some high value treats in at random, just to show that it's a cool spot) I'm sure that if it was places of fear and distress for him, he wouldn't go in by himself

- I was quite unsure, because it does not play alone in with the chews, and toys we keep in, but if he sleeps or just chill / lie down there, I guess who cares what he does in, if he's not showing signs of distress

- we had the 10 minutes rule, taken from nurses for babies in maternity services : if the crying is more than 10 minutes, it's a real problem, and he would be taken out. If it less it's just "I'd rather be out" but a no distress settle. => he never broke this rule

 

 

I'm sorry for the time usage, for something that may be me overreacting, and a bit afraid perhaps to let go while he would be able to cope with it more easily that I think

Maybe it's actually me that need the training to put him in the pen, run short errands, get back and see that he's totally ok 🙂

I think we'll try more of that, with monitoring of the camera to unsure he never goes above threshold

 

That's great, everything you mention doesn't sound like being particularly worrisome. We must factor in though breed, and Lappies are known for being very sociable dogs who crave companionship. This strong need isn't surprising after all considering their past. When not herding reindeer, at the end of a long day, Finnish Lapphund were spending the night huddled together with their human family and other dogs for warmth. So they generally do treasure companionship and don't like to feel left out which matches the FOMO you describe. 

 Your concerns are valid though considering the increase in separation anxiety seen in dogs due to the pandemic that Jennifer mentioned. Separation anxiety often begins when owners go from being home all of the time, and then have to head back to work or run errands. The change is too drastic. So it doesn't hurt to do some preventive exercises getting pups and dogs used to gradual departures and their new routines.  I am glad that you have a monitoring camera as that will provide you the best insight on how he does that day when you both head out of the door.  Keep us posted!

[FrederykBlot]

Thank you for the reply

The more I try to look at the other way, the more I think it's that :

- yesterday, I was in the living room, and he was on his towel in the same room. Then I went in the guest room, where there is his pen, he followed me in, went into the pen, and settle on his mat... The more I see it, the more I think he doesn't hate the pen, and it's not causing distress

- today, after his walk, I thought he could settle with me in the desk (he did that the day before)... bad call, he went crazy on chewing everything... besides I had a conf call, and couldn't do any environment control... after my call he was still throwing a tantrum... so I called "to the pen", close, gave him the chew, closed windows and door, and went back to work. I called "good nap Loki" (I m not sure if I should have as the goal was for him to be contained, not specially napping), he barked 2 times, whined a bit, and settled in less than 2 minutes... At some point he has been triggered by a rooster hurling, and some horses passing by, and barked for a few minutes, and then settle again...
I usually try to get on camera if he's lying on the side , or on the back, which means he's really sleeping (and I did, in about half an hour, he was on the side). I fear normal lying can be sadness / or depressing : can it be ?

 

So yes, I'm getting more and more hope about the alone time, and as you said, Lapphound are really bound to their owner so I guess I should expect a bit of FOMO here and there. I'm the one that needs that training :)

 

With little tap on our back in the sense that our crate / pen training may have not have been that bad, if doesn't seems in distress in it, and sometimes goes there by himself

 

[Adrienne Farricelli]

- yesterday, when back from the walk I called the "to the pen" cue, but he stood at the yard door. Before the schedule was walk ==> nap, he even went in by himself
You told me that he may need to sleep less because of him being older, but the fact that he's not responding to a cue he did respond to before, can it be caused by him going teenager ? it looks like a flight think : "nop nop I don't want to go in there now, I'm better off in the yard"

Yes, we do see this type of behavior with the onset of adolescence. We see moments of regression and even moments of rebellion. Right when you think you have your pup's training pat down, it may feel like, at some point you hit a road block. Your pup may look at you with a blank stare when you ask him to perform a well-trained behavior, or worse, he just blows you off, ignoring you as if your cues were just background noise like the birds chirping on the trees. 

Moments of regression are rather normal during this stage. Make sure to train your pup in areas with little distractions and then gradually increase distractions. Make sure he is paying attention to you when you ask him to perform a behavior. Praise and reward every little sign of cooperation. Avoid scolding your pup or getting frustrated, this will only put a dent in your training causing him to dread being trained, when instead, he should look forward to it. 

You know how teenagers often are closed in their rooms, listening to music and have moments of rebellion, challenging your request to follow rules? The same can happen with a teenager pup.  Juvenile pups in a similar fashion go through mood swings and they may just ignore you or decide to break established rules, and sometimes you may even catch them "talking back" with a little growl. 

Keep training your pup and be very consistent. Be patient. Help your pup make good choices and prevent him from making bad ones by setting him up for success (e.g. keep the trashcan out of the way, keep him on leash or a long line if he doesn't come when called,).

- I may have messed up here, but I try to grab him to put him there, and he had really avoidance moves, and even snapped at me for the first time... I really understood the message "I don't want to be grabbed to be put in" so I left him alone. But it's not just the relunctance of being grabbed for the pen... Being grabbed seems to have regressed, even for going out of the car. Should we re-train that ? if yes, how ? grabbing + treating, grabbing + treating + walking around + treating ?

If this is totally new behavior, and he seems like he doesn't like to be touched, make sure there's no signs of pain (like ear infections, soreness etc). If he was totally fine having his collar touched in the past, mention to your vet, sometimes painful conditions aren't easy to pinpoint. Like when Einstein had neck pain only signs were no longer coming happily to have leash clipped on and looking at us with the corner of his eyes rather than turning his head.  

With that ruled out, it  sounds like he needs some refresher sessions on collar grabs being predictor of great things. If we don't maintain these associations, they can get rusty over time. Because he has tried to snap, you need to go far back in the process, to not elicit any snapping or avoidance behaviors. For instance, pretending to touch the collar/treat, then barely touching the collar/treat, then holding the collar/treat, then holding the collar and applying a bit of pressure/treat, then grabbing collar and letting pup take on step forward/treat, then two steps forward/treat etc. Of course, as with any behaviors that entail growling/snapping etc. if there is any challenge during this and for safety, it's always best working along with a professional. 

Important would also be to give a treat once he's in the pen so he anticipates good things when going in it. I like to say "crate" or pen and give goodies once the dog enthusiastically enters. 

- is the fact that he snapped a form of aggression that I should really watch out ? on normal circumstances, he doesn't have any sense of aggressivity, he's playful and nice, and for me it was just a message like "please don't do that, I don't like it", like when he growled one time.

A snap is a warning, any dog who wants to really bite will do so without missing. This could be a one-time or rather sporadic event if we tackle the underlying issue (not liking to be grabbed) and aim to prevent rehearsal, or it could become a habit if it isn't tackled correctly.  The biggest danger would be not listening to what he is trying to communicate and keep on grabbing him ignoring his communication. That could lead to a real bite. Practice makes perfect and he could then learn to snap also in other circumstances where he doesn't feel like doing something. 

- You said "luring and closing" could backfire and it may be seen like a trap. But is asking for the cue "pen", then closing, then rewarding and go for our dinner is also a form of luring and trapping ?(for me luring is throwing a treat in, and closing behind him while he does not see because he's going for the treat) The downside for him would be being in longer than the treat, and maybe then use the 10 min rule to see if he settles.

- is this is also trapping, I'm not sure at all how we should proceed. To me it's not like he doesn't like the pen, of feels stressful in it, because as I mentioned in the last post, he goes in to search for spawning treats, or to get some toys. Besides I reinforce good things in the pen on a regular basis, like playing together inside, or doing obedience inside... To me it looks like a toddler behavior like "noooo i'm a grown up now ! naps are for babiiiieeesss" 🙂

We can use luring initially, at the very initial stages of training to go in the crate/pen, then we need to fade the lure as quickly as possible, because then the dog depends on the lure and that becomes bribery (dog will only enter if he sees the treat first, the treat has become a promise, a bribe). If the treat comes after entering (and without the dog seeing it, by keeping it in a pocket, closed hand etc) it's no longer a bribe,  but reinforcement (although the dog may  come to expect it). 

Technically, asking to crate, rewarding and going for dinner can be in some cases be felt "as a sort of trap" if the value of being with the family far surpasses whatever is provided. For instance, when we have dogs with separation anxiety, and we always predictably provide a Kong upon leaving, we risk that the Kong may come to predict our departure, and the Kong looses value and the dog may dread getting it. This is why now, professionals are instructed to provide the Kong also when we are around so it retains some value and doesn't predict departures, but ultimately it's most  important to not expose to levels of departures that the dog isn't ready to cope with yet so to tackle the root problem.

So if you must close Loki when you have dinner, make sure you provide something that he looks forward to and that can last for some time and that he looks forward to. On top of a treat, you may also provide a toy he doesn't get often so that after he eats, he can keep occupied with that. Many dogs do better if they are placed in an area where they can see us and still feel part of the family. Some dogs may do better being tethered rather than closed in  or being trained to stay on a mat.

It could also be a stage where he's "testing" his boundaries, and see what he can get away with. "I will try to whine and see if they'll get me out of here or at least gain some attention." However, we may still want to evaluate what we can do to make being in there great and consider whether there is something that may be negatively impacting being in there (too hot? not exercised enough prior? confined too often? being placed in there for timeouts?-just throwing these out, although I am sure many won't apply).

[FrederykBlot]

Thank you for all the insights

 

[the grabbing thing]

No it's just being grabbed and carried around. He's totally ok with collar grabs. He is even really better with the harness (given we have some treats though :))
So we really don't think there is a medical thing involved

But I guess he knows the schedule "evening walk = pen / nap just after", so he's relunctant if I call pen just after the walk
Yesterday I let him go in the yard while I cooked, then called "to the pen" just before serving, and he went in, I closed, gave him toys and rewards, and closed, and called "good nap"
He barked one time and then settled (he was obviously tired from the walk)

He may have not liked it, but at least there was less unwanted behavior, like him snapping, or us chasing him around

 

[the lure thing]

This is really relevant

We do not have "pen-only" thing. We usually give edible chews, which are the ones he can have outside while I have my morning coffee for exemple

We tried to mix different things, but it seems he's often tired enough just to settle him and nap, once he knows he won't be out right now... he often doesn't finish the longer chews

Problem is he's a smart dude, we do not show the treat, but I think he learned to know the noise of the fridge, or the "dog closet" : we'll try now to get the treat, do nothing for a little time, and then call "to the pen"

I can go with the boundaries testing. Too hot => not now, it's mainly rainy these days. Not enough stimulation => not likely as "to the pen" usually comes after walks when he's tired. Confined too often => not likely, specially now that he's better settling around on his own, he isn't crated / penned in the morning as he knows now to sleep in the office without chewing everything. Timeouts => he doesn't get much of them : if he misbehave on us like too strong nipping or humping, we cut the interaction and go elsewhere. And if he's really over excited, it's usually because of tireness, so it's more like a forced nap than a timeout

 

 

The more I look at it, specially with all the insights you give, I really see it more and more like a little fomo thing explained by what you said about the breed

We'll continue training though to make sure it remains postive places for him, which I'm kinda sure it is as he sometimes goes in by himself

[FrederykBlot]

Hellooo

 

Little update on the "evening pen"

 

I will definitely go with fomo...

Since a few days after evening walk we try to not put him in pen and try watching something in the video as part of TV training and "let us eat quiet" training

He gets a good chew and we can start

He usually finishes the chew after we eat but before the end of the épisode and my gf take over the Loki control as she has seen the show already

 

Last night after that, while he's often excited, he was just unbearable, even of me.

Jumping once I seat, biting hands and feet if moving... If I tried to play fetch or wrestle, he would just jump all over me, even trying to mount and hump... We tried obedience like "stay" to calm him a little... I even lost patience and had réactions I didn't like (it has been a long time since I had one of those)

 

In the end, it's my gf that had it "he's too much of a pain right now, it's late but he's going in the pen right now... This won't do"

I was a bit reluctant because it was late already, and I thought now he may not need to sleep in the evening as he sleeps a lot in the day

But she was right, he whined 20 seconds and settled. His behavior was like a cry for help saying "please let me nap, I need too, but I cant do it alone"

 

I guess we will resolve to put again the evening nap, perhaps short, but it felt it's still needed, even if he looks more reluctant now

 

Dog éducation is constant trials and adjustments I guess 😂

 

 

[Adrienne]

In the end, it's my gf that had it "he's too much of a pain right now, it's late but he's going in the pen right now... This won't do" I was a bit reluctant because it was late already, and I thought now he may not need to sleep in the evening as he sleeps a lot in the day But she was right, he whined 20 seconds and settled. His behavior was like a cry for help saying "please let me nap, I need too, but I cant do it alone"

Some puppies and young dogs appear to have no "off button." In other words, they can't relax even if they are feeling tired. Perhaps, like children, they don't recognize tiredness, very well. They don't know that their busy brain needs sleep to function. They just get overwhelmed.

Some puppies may therefore fight the tired feeling simply because they'd rather be awake and playing. They may be trying to sleep one moment, and then paw at toys and get up to play the next. It's almost as if by falling asleep, they have a fear of missing out and want to be in tune with everything that's happening in their surroundings. When this happens, they need quiet time in a familiar, calm environment.

Some dogs may relax enough to sleep deep only when their owners are sleeping too. These are dogs who want to participate in every living moment and can't fully relax until their owners are "completely OUT" sleeping as well. 

Both Einstein and Petra had a routine of going to bed every night at midnight. Sure before then, they  would nap on their mats, but it was mostly light sleep. If we got up from the couch to do something they would twitch their ears because they were ready to be taken out to potty before going into the bedroom and sleep for the night. So they were anticipating it and every little movement had them wondering if it was time. 

If for some reason we were a little late because we wanted to watch something lasting longer, they appeared annoyed by it. Sometimes they would even whine as if saying "Hey, how much longer do you have there?"

[FrederykBlot]

I think it's how you describe on the first part

 

What was weird to me and why I was reluctant to force the nap, was that during the day, he manages it well.

We come back from the morning walk and he would settle in the office while de work

 

How come one time of the day he can settle alone, and the other part he would just become crazy ? It's like there is a off button existing and working mostly fine, but disabled in the evening 😂😂

 

Can it he understand that in the day we're busy working and are not available ? While in the evening we can hang, so he's more clingy in the evening ?

Also the heat of course

I was really caught off guard last time, but I know now that something working at some time doesn't mean it's always OK

[Adrienne]

How come one time of the day he can settle alone, and the other part he would just become crazy ? It's like there is a off button existing and working mostly fine, but disabled in the evening 😂😂Can it he understand that in the day we're busy working and are not available ? While in the evening we can hang, so he's more clingy in the evening ?Also the heat of course.

Yes, being super fluffy, we should surely factor in the heat. As it cools down in the evening, he may have built up excess energy and a need to release some steam. 

Also, if it happens after dinner, factor in as well the fact that food has an energizing effect and feeling full is a nice sensation. In a dog's past history, they had to work hard to find food, walking many miles in search of food and sometimes that meant leading a feast -or- famine lifestyle. In other words, food was often scarce, but at other times it was quite plentiful.

Domesticated dogs no longer have to hunt or scavenge for food. They are now fed in shiny bowls and have the luxury of having the security of daily meals. Since they no longer have to work hard to find food, this often leads to a surplus of energy that can be drained by acting crazy, running around and playing. 

Certain foods may too play a role in hyper behaviors. I am not qualified to make specific food recommendations, but more and more vets, veterinary nutritionists and veterinary behaviorists are learning how certain ingredients in dog food may lead to hyper behaviors. For instance, Dr. Jean Dodds in the book: Canine Nutrigenomics, the New Science of Feeding Your Dog for Optimum Health, points out how certain dogs foods with high-glycemic index carbs may cause hyper behaviors in dogs similar to those seen in children who become wildly hyperactive shortly after consuming a sugary food or drink and then crash into a state of sluggishness a couple of hours later. 

Other factors as you point out are yes, Loki potentially understanding that you are done working. Even if you work at home during the day and finish working in the evening, your puppy will understand that when you are away from your desk your body language is more loose and he is more likely to garner your attention. 

And once again, puppies, just like babies and toddlers, may turn particularly irritable and cranky when tired. Puppy owners often refer to this increase in hyper behavior  observed in the evening hours as 'the puppy witching hour."

If it happens often and predictably, it may help to preempt the behavior by understanding what is going on. If he's just hyper after dinner and has had enough sleep,  you can strategically take  him out to the yard for some games, take him on a walk or organize a fun training session using your clicker or putting his nose to work in some nosework activities. The goal is to burn that excess energy in more productive, calmer ways. 

If he is cranky from feeling tired, then you can set the stage for some sleep by dimming the lights, providing access to a quiet area, a comfy bed and playing some soft music. 

[FrederykBlot]

Hi all

 

I'm upping this subject while last message was long ago, just to share with the improvements, and to thank for all the great advice

 

Actually we do not use the kennel anymore... When misbehaving, or having the witching hour, he would be expelled, and end up just sleeping in the entry zone downside

 

And lately we tried training alone time with him free in the house : 

we're doing it after the evening walk, after which he would usually settle for the night... he would get a licking / chew while we eat, but he would no more be excited... The advance in age must help too... But some times ago we started going out taking take away food, and leaving him alone...

He would sleep in his spot downstairs in the entry zone

Then we increased with going to a restaurant next to the house, which would be 1h30 out during the night / evening

Then we went to an autumn festival, about one hour... still sleeping next to the entrance door

We don't know if he'd whined or cried while we're gone, but we think it's good, as there is no other sign of any distress or destruction. Sadly we have no way to monitor his spot with the camera, it's kinda in a blindspot

 

And for the first time next weekend, we're gonna spend the evening to some friends for dinner and night, and we'll likely come back very late 

I'm pretty sure I'm the one who needs training, as I'm afraid something because of the time difference, but actually, rationnally, as he's sleeping, 1h30 or 4h during the night shouldn't make too much difference :D

 

the thing is, being able to have parties with people again, which have been something we avoided before being sure he would managed alone, will bring a new source of enjoyment in the house :)

[Adrienne Farricelli]

Kudos to you for all your patience and the hard work and now it's time to start reaping the rewards! The best part is that, as dogs mature, and prove themselves very trustworthy around the house, we can start keeping them free in the home rather than confined. Both Petra and Einstein were given partial run of the house at around 1 year old. Of course, I always made sure anything potentially harmful was out of the way (like curtain ties, wires etc).

A little tip if you want to see what's going on with a recording device if you have a blind spot; that is, the use of a mirror placed strategically can help give you a little glimpse of what he may be doing during your absence. Recording just audio can also give you some hints as to his vocalizations. 

Once again, congrats on a job well done!