Well, Poop - Denied Service at Vet's

[JMFS]

Turns out Miss Esther May has some trust issues with anyone not us.  So, I get to pick your brain again.  Are you sure you don't want to move to Florida?  😉

Banfield is still not allowing pet parents into the exam rooms.  Esther went willingly with them, but I got a call 5 minutes into it that she was all done.  Wow, that was fast for everything!  The little stinkpot tried to bite both the Vet (the sweetest man) and the Tech (a gentle younger gal) when they restrained her for the vaccinations and DNA test.  We decided to try again with me muzzling her.  5 minutes later I get a call.  /sigh  She has the muzzle hanging from her neck and is happy as can be.  I'm thinking, "what on Earth is happening back there?!"  I know these two people well and I know they're the kindest ones at this location so it's got to be little missy.  Apparently this time she wigged out, gator rolled, and managed to get the muzzle off.  Yet she still takes treats from them.

So, restraining her is the issue.  How do you give a dog shots, etc . . . without restraining?  I really really dislike muzzles and am leaving that to a last resort.  I'm struggling with How to get her to allow people to restrain her.  I can do darn near anything to her and she just flops over and enjoys it.  That was actually one of the tests I did with her at the Humane Society - I picked her up to see if she would tolerate it and she melted into me.  Same with the husband, though she's just the Slightest bit hesitant with him.  That's a baby step we can take towards trust at least.  When she stops hesitating with him we can go to the next step, but what can that be?  Restraining in a confined area maybe?  Or with us crowding her?  I had them show me how they're restraining so I can emulate it and get her comfortable with being held in that manner.

She is so reactive to dogs as well that even a dog on the screen gets her going.  I think I have my first step towards deescalation / conditioning her to other dogs with that tool.  She's Very keen on television where none of our other dogs could give a care about it.  I am fairly certain it's barrier frustration so I'll take her to the dog park to work on that by walking her outside the fence and "looking at that."  Then maybe we'll try Lowe's or Petsmart again.  There weren't any dogs in the store today and I needed to get back home to work and get Abbi out of her crate.

I'm starting to wonder if she was handled roughly, or even perhaps abused at some point.  The folks who returned her had a Down Syndrome 5-yr old and they said Esther was "too much for the kids."  I'm a little suspicious there, thinking maybe the kiddo was too rough with her and she responded in kind like she does with Gertie and Abbi; or maybe the parents were overly reactive / protective if Esther did something wrong around the child.  Doc said it's common in shelter puppies, but neither Momo nor Gertie were like this and they're both shelter pups.  Mo was nervous as heck in later years, but he still let them do the things they needed to.  Except the temp check.  He didn't allow that and I can't say that I blame him!

I walked her around the store playing "look at that" with the people to start working on her skittishness.  There was an older gentleman with his wife and Esther was perfectly fine with him, a little less sure with her.  I think it had to do with his confidence.  His wife was confident enough, but not as much as her husband.  I did let them know she's been reactive today and to go slow, but he didn't need to.  Esther took right to him.  She jumped when my bag touched her rump while she was sniffing so I worked on tapping her body while she was sniffing and giving her a treat after she realized it was just me.  Eventually she stopped reacting to the touch.

This girl is going to take a Lot of work if she's this ornery at 6 months.  I anticipate a few breakdowns on my behalf and am so very glad I have you here!  I found a Behaviorist 45 minutes away, but her schedule is at night and I can't drive at night so back to the drawing board!  There Has to be someone in Marion County, I just need to find them.

[JMFS]

Oh, while they decided not to continue today in an effort to avoid trauma, I did get sent home with Trazadone for the next attempt.  I will work with her for about a week and then we'll try again.  They didn't Completely turn me away.  :)  I just wish they'd let me in the room with her.  This Covid stuff needs to knock it off already.

[Adrienne]

Are you sure you don't want to move to Florida?  😉

Florida is actually on our mind as a place to eventually move to one day! There's a dog trainer who offered to partner with me, so who knows!

Banfield is still not allowing pet parents into the exam rooms.  Esther went willingly with them, but I got a call 5 minutes into it that she was all done.  Wow, that was fast for everything!  The little stinkpot tried to bite both the Vet (the sweetest man) and the Tech (a gentle younger gal) when they restrained her for the vaccinations and DNA test.  We decided to try again with me muzzling her.  5 minutes later I get a call.  /sigh  She has the muzzle hanging from her neck and is happy as can be.  I'm thinking, "what on Earth is happening back there?!"  I know these two people well and I know they're the kindest ones at this location so it's got to be little missy.  Apparently this time she wigged out, gator rolled, and managed to get the muzzle off.  Yet she still takes treats from them.

So, restraining her is the issue.  How do you give a dog shots, etc . . . without restraining?  I really really dislike muzzles and am leaving that to a last resort.  I'm struggling with How to get her to allow people to restrain her.  I can do darn near anything to her and she just flops over and enjoys it.  That was actually one of the tests I did with her at the Humane Society - I picked her up to see if she would tolerate it and she melted into me.  Same with the husband, though she's just the Slightest bit hesitant with him.  That's a baby step we can take towards trust at least.  When she stops hesitating with him we can go to the next step, but what can that be?  Restraining in a confined area maybe?  Or with us crowding her?  I had them show me how they're restraining so I can emulate it and get her comfortable with being held in that manner.

Oh, I know how you feel! I had Petra who was terrified of shots. I don't even know how it all started. Maybe it was a fear period.

She went for her first puppy shots and all was well. Then on her second round, I don't know why, but she literally screamed! This startled  all of us and the people in the waiting room expected to see a small Chihuahua come out and not a tough-looking Rottweiler!

It didn't help that a few months later we had to go to Italy for some time and our Rottweilers were to come along. Petra and Einstein needed a microchip for travel and that needle is quite large. As soon as she realized a shot was coming, she started rolling over like an alligator and then eventually started snapping towards me and the vet's hands! I was mortified. Didn't expect that! Vet told me to stay away and the vet tech restrained her and was able to keep her still, but she gave the vet a hard time screaming with terror in her eyes. 

When she was released, we noticed poor Petra had peed all over the exam table from the scare. Einstein was next and he looked worried after seeing his sister's reaction. So from that day on I dreaded when her vaccine appointments were around the corner. I tried to act brave and confident for her, but it's like that traumatized her for life. Single event learning at its best. When in this state of mind, she cared less about treats. 

So I did muzzle train her for shots from that time on, but I still wanted to work on the issue, so at home I would routinely pretend to give her shots with a pencil, saying "pichouuu!' and feeding her a treat initially simultaneously and then right afterward. Then I moved to using a syringe with no needle. Same exercise. Then I started desensitizing her and counterconditioning het to me giving slight pinches over her body, feeding treats and making it a fun game.

We sometimes stopped by the vet for just treats and I always brought her along for Einstein's visits, just for the good experience of getting a cookie from the vet. This along with asking vets if they could give the shots outside helped a whole lot.

With fear of restraint, it may help practicing restrain at home in an open area working in baby steps, from very loose restraint, barely holding to gradually tighter, always working under threshold. A helper (your husband) can praise and feed when restrained and treat delivery/praise would stop when the restraint is over with the purpose of obtaining a positive conditioned emotional response. Then, the dog can be swapped, with your helper doing the restraint and you the praise and treat delivery always aiming for a positive conditioned emotional response. For safety, best to use a muzzle just in case. 

If you can be around for vet visits, ask your vet if while they restrain her, you can feed her treats. My vets liked it because it kept my dog busy. If for some reason the dog had to stay very still (like for a blood draw from the jugular) I would just hold some high value food in my hand closed as if my hand was Kong and let my dog sniff and acknowledge I had the goodie. This would build anticipation. Once free from restraint, my dog would party happily and I would open my hand and give the food. 

If you can't be with due to Covid, ask them if they can give treats for you. I had some techs refuse, but the vet I used to go to were very good at this and accommodating.

 When she stops hesitating with him we can go to the next step, but what can that be?  Restraining in a confined area maybe?  Or with us crowding her?  I had them show me how they're restraining so I can emulate it and get her comfortable with being held in that manner.

Yes, those sound like good new steps. And if you ever have to take your other dogs to vet it's good to take her along just for a positive experience or just visit the vet for treats. It was very smart of you having them show you how they restrain her so that you work on it, great thinking! 

It may also help doing some positive handling exercises (described below) in case she's a bit reluctant of having certain body parts touched and organizing "mock vet visits." I even ordered a stethoscope and otoscope to practice with my dogs. For safety, best to use a muzzle just in case.

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/exercises-to-teach-puppies-to-tolerate-touch/

 How do you give a dog shots, etc . . . without restraining?

I will never forget one marvelous vet who came out towards our car and pet her and then quickly gave her a shot as she was wiggly (she loved men!), before she could even realize what he was doing. I still kept her muzzle on-just in case, but this was memorable because there was zero restraint. More and more vets now offer visits outside. My favorite vet (now retired) did this, and I would refer owners of fearful dogs to her because it does make a difference. 

I know you really have lovely sounding vets, but if Esther struggles with this, it may be worthy of trying a fear-free clinic and see if that makes a difference. I don't know if you have one near you, but here is where one can place a zip code and see if there are any. https://fearfreepets.com/resources/directory/ I can't vouch for them all being good, but they do specialized training and may work more at your dog's pace/feed treats to help make those visits more pleasant. 

She is so reactive to dogs as well that even a dog on the screen gets her going.  I think I have my first step towards deescalation / conditioning her to other dogs with that tool.  She's Very keen on television where none of our other dogs could give a care about it.  I am fairly certain it's barrier frustration so I'll take her to the dog park to work on that by walking her outside the fence and "looking at that."  Then maybe we'll try Lowe's or Petsmart again.  There weren't any dogs in the store today and I needed to get back home to work and get Abbi out of her crate.

I'm starting to wonder if she was handled roughly, or even perhaps abused at some point.  The folks who returned her had a Down Syndrome 5-yr old and they said Esther was "too much for the kids."  I'm a little suspicious there, thinking maybe the kiddo was too rough with her and she responded in kind like she does with Gertie and Abbi; or maybe the parents were overly reactive / protective if Esther did something wrong around the child.  Doc said it's common in shelter puppies, but neither Momo nor Gertie were like this and they're both shelter pups.  Mo was nervous as heck in later years, but he still let them do the things they needed to.  Except the temp check.  He didn't allow that and I can't say that I blame him!

I walked her around the store playing "look at that" with the people to start working on her skittishness.  There was an older gentleman with his wife and Esther was perfectly fine with him, a little less sure with her.  I think it had to do with his confidence.  His wife was confident enough, but not as much as her husband.  I did let them know she's been reactive today and to go slow, but he didn't need to.  Esther took right to him.  She jumped when my bag touched her rump while she was sniffing so I worked on tapping her body while she was sniffing and giving her a treat after she realized it was just me.  Eventually she stopped reacting to the touch.

This girl is going to take a Lot of work if she's this ornery at 6 months.  I anticipate a few breakdowns on my behalf and am so very glad I have you here!  I found a Behaviorist 45 minutes away, but her schedule is at night and I can't drive at night so back to the drawing board!  There Has to be someone in Marion County, I just need to find them.

 I found a Behaviorist 45 minutes away, but her schedule is at night and I can't drive at night so back to the drawing board!  There Has to be someone in Marion County, I just need to find them.

In Florida, there is Nicki Tudge and Leslie Clifton (not sure though if she retired).  I think Jenny Higgins has started doing behavior consults/ aggression cases too. 

Oh, while they decided not to continue today in an effort to avoid trauma, I did get sent home with Trazadone for the next attempt.  I will work with her for about a week and then we'll try again.  They didn't Completely turn me away.  🙂 I just wish they'd let me in the room with her.  This Covid stuff needs to knock it off already.

It sounds like you have lots of stuff to work on! Bless your heart for your dedication. These work-in-progress dogs can teach us so much and it can be very rewarding as they start to bloom. She is young and that works in your favor. 

Keep an eye on her tonight and allow her to de-stress.  Some downtime away from your other dogs can help avoid a trigger-stacking effect from all the cumulative stress. It can be hard on them when they go to the vet and react this way. 

 

[JMFS]

I am so happy you mentioned Jenny Higgins!  She's the one in Gainesville so now I Know she's good people if she has your stamp of approval!  <3  Niki is closer and Leslie isn't all that much further.  Jenny is the furthest and it's still a reasonable drive, about 45 minutes. 

I put Esther in her crate when we got home to feed her and she fell asleep for a good couple of hours so that was good.  She's been rather calm today and was even a good pup when I went downstairs to clean my smart notebook (I absolutely Love those things - like paper but reusable).  I accidentally sent a cup of coffee flying before her appointment and it went Everywhere so the day was off to a spectacular start.  When she woke up I played with her, holding her and treating her, being sure to go slow.  She showed zero signs of being uncomfortable so at least she's still cool with me.  That may have something to do with the almost full bag of Power Bites she got at Petsmart.  I put on some acoustic guitar music and she's been in and out of naps, which this girl does Not do so I'm sure she's still recovering and I'll go easy on her the rest of the evening to ensure we keep things healthy.

I really do have half a mind to seek out another Vet.  Banfield has that wonderful Optimum Wellness Plan, though.  It's so affordable, but at what cost to her mental and emotional state is the question.  If Banfield can lift that restriction things would go smoother because I could be there to bolster her confidence or restrain her.

I was wondering if doing little pressure / pinches during this training might be a good idea.  I like the slow approach starting with a pencil and working up to little pinches better than diving right in with the pinch.

Poor Petra!  She was lucky to have you as her companion.  From the stories you've shared it sounds like she needed some extra care in between being the brilliant girl she was.  I can only imagine Einstein's turn coming up after Petra's display, haha.  "You want me to . . . what now?!"

I still think we got the cream of the crop that day at the shelter.  She just has some baggage, but like you said, she's young and that's going to be a saving grace.  She has her whole life ahead, 6 months is a blip!

Thank you, as always!  It would be really nifty if Florida pans out for you.  :)

[Adrienne]

I am so happy you mentioned Jenny Higgins!  She's the one in Gainesville so now I Know she's good people if she has your stamp of approval!  ❤️ Niki is closer and Leslie isn't all that much further.  Jenny is the furthest and it's still a reasonable drive, about 45 minutes. 

I  can say Jenny has good credentials. She's a CPDT-KA with a degree in psychology and has taken Niki Tudge's behavior consulting course. Niki Tudge has created that program after attending the same course I have been attending. 

When she woke up I played with her, holding her and treating her, being sure to go slow.  She showed zero signs of being uncomfortable so at least she's still cool with me.  That may have something to do with the almost full bag of Power Bites she got at Petsmart.

That's lovely! It's a nice start, then working on gradually increasing criteria with intensity in holds, duration of holds and distraction of holds (different places, different people) etc always working at her pace, and wearing a muzzle, just in case. I am not sure if you've done muzzle training yet with her, but it would be important because at the vet it sounds like she must have been able to take it off probably because she didn't like it. The goal is for the dog to be happy to wear it, where the dog voluntarily sticks the nose in it and is relaxed wearing it. 

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/video-archive/train-your-dog-to-wear-a-muzzle/

It can also help to train her a "stay stand" in other words, training her to stay when in standing position. This is just like training stay, only that the dog is standing. This can turn helpful when vet needs to examine the dog. Einstein was trained to do this when we were doing Rally-o, but it turned handy for vet visits too. With Petra, I was afraid that since she hated shots so much, the cue to stand would become poisoned eventually, so skipped that and aimed for outdoor vet visits and vets who were quick to love on her and distract her. 

Worth mentioning is to practice also if possible at the vet. We can work a lot on making those vet places happier, more rewarding places, however, I feel there will always remain some element of aversion. Just think about dogs who are pooped scared there and release anal glands secretions which acts as an alarm for other dogs, causing them to tense up. Some procedures may remain unpleasant no matter what (palpating for painful areas to elicit a response, waking up from surgery, checking painful ears), so I think an element of "white coat syndrome" will always remain. Of course, with the stupid COVID19 situation working on positive associations there may not be possible for now, but some vets are doing outdoor visits which can be a plus. 

I was wondering if doing little pressure / pinches during this training might be a good idea.  I like the slow approach starting with a pencil and working up to little pinches better than diving right in with the pinch.

With Petra it seemed to help her, very light pinches, making it a game and praising and popping treats, but I knew for sure she was scared of the needle. Her last appointment to get her rabies shot, the vet (male) was giving her attention, scratching her rump which she loved and then he just delivered the shot very quickly with one hand and she didn't even flinch. I think her fear was mostly the anticipation, than the actual shot. Like, in the room, she would  plop herself on her back expecting it, and would start yelping in fear even before the injection. I think the microchip injection traumatized her for good and she was always expecting that large gauge needle and level of pain.