Resource guarding

[Marlene]

Hi, I would like to know a good approach to resource guarding.

I have trained him heaps and he doesn't growl or fuss with when we are around his food or toys.

The issue I have is when we give him a juicy bone and we try to get it off him after a couple of hours of him chewing on it.

I've been told they shouldn't have it too long so even two hours is over kill.

I have eventually lured him away with giving him his dinner, but I had to tie him up so I could get the bone as he was showing aggression , which I haven't experienced with him before.

I feel. The more he gets into a raw bone he becomes more wild it that makes sense as he is super playfut loves all dogs is very effectionate.

My question is, is it realistic to be able to go up to yr dog and trade his bone or is it matter of luring away to grab it.

Then do i promote  resource guarding when he sees that I take the bone and throw it.

Should I let him just bury it so he knows it's his when he wants it.

And if I allow this, can the bone make them sick from being in the ground.

Sorry for alot of questions, I just want to have the right approach as I don't not want to give him a bone.

[JMFS]

2 hours ago, Marlene said:

I have eventually lured him away with giving him his dinner, but I had to tie him up so I could get the bone as he was showing aggression , which I haven't experienced with him before.

I feel. The more he gets into a raw bone he becomes more wild it that makes sense as he is super playfut loves all dogs is very effectionate.

My question is, is it realistic to be able to go up to yr dog and trade his bone or is it matter of luring away to grab it.

Then do i promote  resource guarding when he sees that I take the bone and throw it.

I'm not an expert, but I am experienced in resource guarding with my own dogs.  My solution with Momo, who was highly aggressive with high value items, was to give him lower value items that don't last as long as a bone.  He eventually cracked a tooth chewing on bones so I stopped those entirely.  The cleanest solution for us, though, was to keep long lasting treats at a medium value so I could trade him for something higher value.

When you Do have to take something high value from them you want to trade them for something Better.  His food in this case may not be as highly regarded as the bone, which could explain why you had to tie him up to safely remove it.  Throwing a piece (or two, three, five) of steak in the other direction to get more distance could afford you more time, and keep him distracted so he doesn't see you remove the item.  It's tough to compete with a juicy bone so you'd have to get creative!  Momo's worst aggression outburst was over cat poop so I can attest to the fact that their palates differ Greatly from ours!  My gentle loving girl, Gertie, has even snapped at the new pup.  I can take Anything from her, but I don't.  I Always trade up.  It builds trust and is safer than outright snatching their treat.  Even if it's cat poop.  <gag>

I'll leave the rest to Adrienne because resource guarding is tricky.  If you want to read more about Momo's situation, it's here: 

 He was a Very challenging dog when it came to resources and I lived with it for his first 8 years.  The Best thing I ever did was to hire a Behaviorist who helped Mo and I communicate better.  I had to remain vigilant and keep up the training every day of the rest of his life, but it was Infinitely better after we completed the training sessions with our trainer.

[Adrienne]

I have trained him heaps and he doesn't growl or fuss with when we are around his food or toys.

I am glad to hear this! You must have been doing a wonderful job if you were able to accomplish this. If I recall well, he once bit you when you were attempting to remove a wrapper he was eating. 

The issue I have is when we give him a juicy bone and we try to get it off him after a couple of hours of him chewing on it. I've been told they shouldn't have it too long so even two hours is over kill. I have eventually lured him away with giving him his dinner, but I had to tie him up so I could get the bone as he was showing aggression , which I haven't experienced with him before. I feel. The more he gets into a raw bone he becomes more wild it that makes sense as he is super playfut loves all dogs is very effectionate.

As Jennifer pointed out, luring him with his dinner doesn't compare to the value of a juicy bone, which is often at the very top of a dog's hierarchy of resources. You would have to therefore engage in a fairer trade, swapping it with something that is superior in value and preferably long-lasting so that he won't gobble a treat or two quickly and then go back to to looking for his bone. 

For example, if he has a bone that has been chewed on a lot with no more meat, you can trade it with a long-lasting edible that can be fully consumed (e.g. bully stick). Several pieces of steak tossed around, at a distance as Jennifer suggested, is also a good idea as it's high-value and will keep him busy for some time searching for it. You will need to keep in mind what your dog values a whole lot and offer that to trade, but it's important to do the trade safely. 

My favorite method is this one:  Find something edible that is higher in value than what your dog has and that is safe for him to have. Whatever it is, keep it always handy so that you can reach out for it as needed. Make noise with the wrapper, open the fridge, unlock the jar storing his favorite edible chews. Chances are, he'll prick his ears and watch you carefully. Let him clearly see what you are doing. Don't walk towards his bone. 

At this point, your dog may drop the item he had in his mouth voluntarily to come see what you are doing or he may approach you carrying the item in his mouth to check what you are doing. Don't walk towards his bone.

Once you have your high-value items to trade for in your hand, let your dog see it, and as soon as you notice interest, walk past an open door or baby gate, toss the desired item that way and as soon as he's past the door/baby gate to go get it, close the door/baby gate between you and your dog so that you can safely retrieve the bone.

This method works well because on top of getting your dog to voluntary relinquish the object, you are also teaching him the art of "fair trading." In other words, instead of dreading you coming his way when he has a possession in fear of losing it, rep after rep, he looks forward to it because he has learned that you always have something better to offer.

My question is, is it realistic to be able to go up to yr dog and trade his bone or is it matter of luring away to grab it. Then do i promote  resource guarding when he sees that I take the bone and throw it.

It is realistic, it just takes time and lots of practice to establish that level of trust. Of course, it's more labor-intensive in dogs who have a history of resource guarding, versus those who haven't resourced guarded much or never had.

Dogs who have learned to associate our approach with us offering something better, ideally will develop a positive conditioned emotional response https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/conditioned-emotional-response-cer/ where they will basically stop chewing and look up the owner approaching eager for the swap. Some will drool or even wag their tail in anticipation. When they receive their tasty trade, if fair and therefore, being superior in value, they'll forget all about the lost bone and will hardly notice the owner tossing the bone. 

This requires diligently working with lower value items upward, always swapping for something better and establishing a level of trust, working at the dog's pace ensuring he doesn't go over threshold. https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/threshold-levels/

This is delicate work requiring reading the dog's most subtle body language carefully, making several judgement calls so to know when to go back a step or raise criteria. For safety reasons and correct implementation of behavior modification, it is important working alongside with a professional who can coach you through the process. 

Should I let him just bury it so he knows it's his when he wants it. And if I allow this, can the bone make them sick from being in the ground. Sorry for alot of questions, I just want to have the right approach as I don't not want to give him a bone.

With bones in general, there are risks to keep into account. For example, I like to remove bones when they are overly consumed, getting sharp or small that a dog can swallow it whole. I like to keep an eye on the status of bones for safety reasons, and with a buried bone we can't keep all that into account. 

For getting sick from eating a bone being in the ground, I would say that dogs have pretty good stomachs meant to produce acids to kill bacteria. After all, wild dogs and feral dogs have engaged in the art of food caching for centuries and this is the way they adapted to feed as opportunistic feeders and scavengers. However, if for some reason the dog's immune system has weakened or the dog happens to have a sensitive stomach, it is possible to incur in problems with this habit. 

On top of this, consider if you are out in the yard and fail to notice your dog has the bone in his mouth and you get too close for comfort risking a bite. With you being in control of when the bones are given and removed, you have more control of the environment. 

As Jennifer pointed out, you may be better off sticking to edibles that are lower in value and can be easily swapped with something higher in value or that can be eaten in one setting without even requiring a swap. If you want to stick with  bones, you will need to be very attentive and make sure you can safely swap, but working alongside with a professional is your best bet regardless because you want to go to the root of the problem and change that emotional response. The more your dog rehearses the guarding behavior, the more he will get tense around you, when the goal is instead to get him to relax because our approach means only good things. 

Hope this helps,

Let me know if you have other questions.

Best,

Adrienne 

Disclaimer: If your dog shows signs of potential aggression (lunging, barking, growling, snapping, biting) for safety, please consult with a dog behavior professional who uses force-free behavior modification techniques for direct in-person guidance. Articles, videos and general info found in the forums or course (or any online source) are not meant to replace in-person training/instruction. By using this course and forum, you are waiving any liability claims or other type of claims related to any dogs' behavior against you or others

[FrederykBlot]

Hello

I'm allowing myself to reply on this thread as I have questions following resource guarding after some of my reaction

 

It has been established in one of my thread that it's usually not a good idea to take back an edible chew to keep it for later, as it can induce resource guarding and distrust, as I become the bad guy that remove good things. So I guess it's all about timing and the good chew right ? If I want to walk him in one hour because I've got to go in 2 hours, it's better to give a less durable chew and fill the time otherwise instead of giving a big one and taking it back for the walk ? (I ask because we had the case : pup was on a chew, my wife finished work, we wanted to walk him, and exercise him before confining him a bit, but didn't know what / how to do)

 

I was wondering also if a last minute dodge during fetch is some kind of resource guarding or it's just a badly known fetch ? When excited enough, pup would tug the toy, sit, wait, I throw, he goes, start to come back to me, then turn around in the middle and goes lie down in a corner of the yard with the toy. I find it quite funny, and I usually make a little fun of pup ("loool Loki you're not that smart actually, you're supposed to get it back to me...") So, should it be a concern I should try to correct ? If so, how ?

 

Thank you for the help

[Adrienne]

 If I want to walk him in one hour because I've got to go in 2 hours, it's better to give a less durable chew and fill the time otherwise instead of giving a big one and taking it back for the walk ? (I ask because we had the case : pup was on a chew, my wife finished work, we wanted to walk him, and exercise him before confining him a bit, but didn't know what / how to do)

Great question!

So when it comes to giving our dogs resources and taking them away, we need to try our best to identify what dogs find more valuable. So in the instance Loki is provided with a long-lasting edible that is lasting too long and you want to take him for walk, we need to evaluate whether going on a walk is something that he finds to be low value, medium value or higher value compared to the edible. You should get a response directly from him by watching what happens when you grab the leash. 

If upon grabbing the leash and walking towards the door Loki cares less about going out, you know he rather have the edible.  If Loki looks your way and gets up leaving the edible behind, but then seem a bit in conflict, maybe moving towards you but then looking back, you know he's undecided. If Loki rushes to you eager to go on the walk with no hesitation and forgets all about the edible, you know walks with you are far more valuable to him. 

So if the latter is the case, you have a clear answer, he has made his choice and it was likely a no-brainer for him. Walks with you are higher value. You can take him on the walk and a family member can remove the edible that was left unfinished once he is out the door. With our dogs, we often used this strategy, as they always wanted to be outside when we were going out in the yard so they would follow us out and one of us would then proceed to remove the item left unfinished. Of course, outside we had fun taking them on sniffing adventures, meeting our friendly neighbors and practicing recalls or other training. 

Because we noticed that, sometimes even after all that fun, our dogs would rush inside to the spot where they left the chew, we made it a habit that when one of us removed the unfinished edible, we would leave a few pieces of treats there as a replacement. 

If your pup doesn't seem to care much about the leash, and you really need to take him out, you can swap it for something that is higher in value but that won't take too long to eat. For example, several thin slices of low -sodium hot dogs or pieces of baked liver strips scattered treasure hunt style at a distance can be offered so that the chew can be retrieved and the dog can then go on the walk. 

Ideally though, yes, if we can coordinate the timing of how long it takes to eat the edible with the start of next activity, we have a solution that doesn't require any swapping or having the dog make choices.  

I was wondering also if a last minute dodge during fetch is some kind of resource guarding or it's just a badly known fetch ? When excited enough, pup would tug the toy, sit, wait, I throw, he goes, start to come back to me, then turn around in the middle and goes lie down in a corner of the yard with the toy. I find it quite funny, and I usually make a little fun of pup ("loool Loki you're not that smart actually, you're supposed to get it back to me...") So, should it be a concern I should try to correct ? If so, how ?

Not necessarily. Many dogs are attracted to the toys we play fetch with and would rather lie down and chew on them in a quiet area. They often do so when they get tired of playing fetch or they realize how nice the toy feels on their teeth and are tempted to chew. However, I can see your concern since he seems to go to in a corner of the yard as if afraid to be disturbed or have the toy taken away. To play it safe, I would suggest avoiding forcibly removing the toy from him and doing swaps as well.

This is covered here: https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/overprotective-of-toys/

 

[Marlene]

On 5/28/2021 at 1:58 AM, Adrienne said:

I have trained him heaps and he doesn't growl or fuss with when we are around his food or toys.

I am glad to hear this! You must have been doing a wonderful job if you were able to accomplish this. If I recall well, he once bit you when you were attempting to remove a wrapper he was eating. 

The issue I have is when we give him a juicy bone and we try to get it off him after a couple of hours of him chewing on it. I've been told they shouldn't have it too long so even two hours is over kill. I have eventually lured him away with giving him his dinner, but I had to tie him up so I could get the bone as he was showing aggression , which I haven't experienced with him before. I feel. The more he gets into a raw bone he becomes more wild it that makes sense as he is super playfut loves all dogs is very effectionate.

As Jennifer pointed out, luring him with his dinner doesn't compare to the value of a juicy bone, which is often at the very top of a dog's hierarchy of resources. You would have to therefore engage in a fairer trade, swapping it with something that is superior in value and preferably long-lasting so that he won't gobble a treat or two quickly and then go back to to looking for his bone. 

For example, if he has a bone that has been chewed on a lot with no more meat, you can trade it with a long-lasting edible that can be fully consumed (e.g. bully stick). Several pieces of steak tossed around, at a distance as Jennifer suggested, is also a good idea as it's high-value and will keep him busy for some time searching for it. You will need to keep in mind what your dog values a whole lot and offer that to trade, but it's important to do the trade safely. 

My favorite method is this one:  Find something edible that is higher in value than what your dog has and that is safe for him to have. Whatever it is, keep it always handy so that you can reach out for it as needed. Make noise with the wrapper, open the fridge, unlock the jar storing his favorite edible chews. Chances are, he'll prick his ears and watch you carefully. Let him clearly see what you are doing. Don't walk towards his bone. 

At this point, your dog may drop the item he had in his mouth voluntarily to come see what you are doing or he may approach you carrying the item in his mouth to check what you are doing. Don't walk towards his bone.

Once you have your high-value items to trade for in your hand, let your dog see it, and as soon as you notice interest, walk past an open door or baby gate, toss the desired item that way and as soon as he's past the door/baby gate to go get it, close the door/baby gate between you and your dog so that you can safely retrieve the bone.

This method works well because on top of getting your dog to voluntary relinquish the object, you are also teaching him the art of "fair trading." In other words, instead of dreading you coming his way when he has a possession in fear of losing it, rep after rep, he looks forward to it because he has learned that you always have something better to offer.

My question is, is it realistic to be able to go up to yr dog and trade his bone or is it matter of luring away to grab it. Then do i promote  resource guarding when he sees that I take the bone and throw it.

It is realistic, it just takes time and lots of practice to establish that level of trust. Of course, it's more labor-intensive in dogs who have a history of resource guarding, versus those who haven't resourced guarded much or never had.

Dogs who have learned to associate our approach with us offering something better, ideally will develop a positive conditioned emotional response https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/conditioned-emotional-response-cer/ where they will basically stop chewing and look up the owner approaching eager for the swap. Some will drool or even wag their tail in anticipation. When they receive their tasty trade, if fair and therefore, being superior in value, they'll forget all about the lost bone and will hardly notice the owner tossing the bone. 

This requires diligently working with lower value items upward, always swapping for something better and establishing a level of trust, working at the dog's pace ensuring he doesn't go over threshold. https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/threshold-levels/

This is delicate work requiring reading the dog's most subtle body language carefully, making several judgement calls so to know when to go back a step or raise criteria. For safety reasons and correct implementation of behavior modification, it is important working alongside with a professional who can coach you through the process. 

Should I let him just bury it so he knows it's his when he wants it. And if I allow this, can the bone make them sick from being in the ground. Sorry for alot of questions, I just want to have the right approach as I don't not want to give him a bone.

With bones in general, there are risks to keep into account. For example, I like to remove bones when they are overly consumed, getting sharp or small that a dog can swallow it whole. I like to keep an eye on the status of bones for safety reasons, and with a buried bone we can't keep all that into account. 

For getting sick from eating a bone being in the ground, I would say that dogs have pretty good stomachs meant to produce acids to kill bacteria. After all, wild dogs and feral dogs have engaged in the art of food caching for centuries and this is the way they adapted to feed as opportunistic feeders and scavengers. However, if for some reason the dog's immune system has weakened or the dog happens to have a sensitive stomach, it is possible to incur in problems with this habit. 

On top of this, consider if you are out in the yard and fail to notice your dog has the bone in his mouth and you get too close for comfort risking a bite. With you being in control of when the bones are given and removed, you have more control of the environment. 

As Jennifer pointed out, you may be better off sticking to edibles that are lower in value and can be easily swapped with something higher in value or that can be eaten in one setting without even requiring a swap. If you want to stick with  bones, you will need to be very attentive and make sure you can safely swap, but working alongside with a professional is your best bet regardless because you want to go to the root of the problem and change that emotional response. The more your dog rehearses the guarding behavior, the more he will get tense around you, when the goal is instead to get him to relax because our approach means only good things. 

Hope this helps,

Let me know if you have other questions.

Best,

Adrienne 

Disclaimer: If your dog shows signs of potential aggression (lunging, barking, growling, snapping, biting) for safety, please consult with a dog behavior professional who uses force-free behavior modification techniques for direct in-person guidance. Articles, videos and general info found in the forums or course (or any online source) are not meant to replace in-person training/instruction. By using this course and forum, you are waiving any liability claims or other type of claims related to any dogs' behavior against you or others

Thank you and yes he once did bite over a wrapper with food.

After that dilemma I hand fed him  for 2 months whilst also training him.

I now can get him off street objects and food by a simple leave it or tossing treats away from him.

I will try the above mentioned, I didn't even think of steak being higher value than a bone, so thanks for the info.

I will let you know how I go. 

Here's a pic of my cheeky boy. 

[Marlene]

On 5/27/2021 at 12:58 PM, JMFS said:

I'm not an expert, but I am experienced in resource guarding with my own dogs.  My solution with Momo, who was highly aggressive with high value items, was to give him lower value items that don't last as long as a bone.  He eventually cracked a tooth chewing on bones so I stopped those entirely.  The cleanest solution for us, though, was to keep long lasting treats at a medium value so I could trade him for something higher value.

When you Do have to take something high value from them you want to trade them for something Better.  His food in this case may not be as highly regarded as the bone, which could explain why you had to tie him up to safely remove it.  Throwing a piece (or two, three, five) of steak in the other direction to get more distance could afford you more time, and keep him distracted so he doesn't see you remove the item.  It's tough to compete with a juicy bone so you'd have to get creative!  Momo's worst aggression outburst was over cat poop so I can attest to the fact that their palates differ Greatly from ours!  My gentle loving girl, Gertie, has even snapped at the new pup.  I can take Anything from her, but I don't.  I Always trade up.  It builds trust and is safer than outright snatching their treat.  Even if it's cat poop.  <gag>

I'll leave the rest to Adrienne because resource guarding is tricky.  If you want to read more about Momo's situation, it's here: 

 He was a Very challenging dog when it came to resources and I lived with it for his first 8 years.  The Best thing I ever did was to hire a Behaviorist who helped Mo and I communicate better.  I had to remain vigilant and keep up the training every day of the rest of his life, but it was Infinitely better after we completed the training sessions with our trainer.

Thank you for your input, I will try what you have suggested and read through your story

[Adrienne]

I now can get him off street objects and food by a simple leave it or tossing treats away from him.

What a lovely pup! Congrats and kudos to you for making so much progress!

[FrederykBlot]

I'm following this thread for info on resource guarding, but just wanted to say your pup is lovely !

[FrederykBlot]

Hello

Thanks for the article, really helpful

In the end it says to avoid removing things from pup by force, but even when walking with treats, the highest value we have does not compete with used tissue, or used Covid masks (people are pigs)

For me, in that case, it's a matter of safety... Is there a way to limit the impact of those forced removal ?
He's definitely turning the head when he senses I will go for it, but if he doesn't take the treat, I'm not sure I want to leave him chewing on a used Covid mask...
(we train Leave It, which is OK at home with a kibble, but way more difficult outside with a new thing he never saw before)

 

[JMFS]

Ew, people Are gross!   That's nearly as bad as used diapers.  🤮

It Could be that he's expecting kibble for his leave, even outside, so he's put that cue on ignore thinking you're going to give him kibble in return for the mask.

Sometimes I Think I've got the Best of the best treats and the girls prove me wrong.  Yesterday I was giving them Power Bites, turducken flavor, which they truly do enjoy; however, when I brought out the freeze dried liver and lung treats they Flipped.  You could see the nirvana flowing across their faces as they were chewing with their noses up in the air as though attempting to smell it while they snacked.

Leave, drop, and recall are three things that are difficult to train because there are over a million things far more interesting than us out in the world.  We may find a Covid mask mundane, but to a dog it has a cornucopia of scents that are fascinating (I still say "ew").  Not only has it picked up the scent of the person, their sweat, and breath, but I'd imagine it's gathered a great number of aromas that person drew through the mask as they were on their way to litter.  To a dog that's like having a juicy novel to read.  I Think what's going to be said (I like to test what I've learned around here 😊) is that you're looking to establish a conditioned response to "leave" and "drop" to where Loki is thinking Any time he hears those words it really means, "chicken," or "liver" or maybe even "steak!"  Whatever it is that he thinks is better than that precious item he just found.

Something I've been doing with Esther that works like a charm is to crouch down and act like I'm scratching / digging at the ground.  So far I can count only one time it didn't work - she found cat vomit, ugh - dogs are nasty but I love them!  A combination fake scratch and high value treat may do the trick.

[Adrienne]

In the end it says to avoid removing things from pup by force, but even when walking with treats, the highest value we have does not compete with used tissue, or used Covid masks (people are pigs)

I think in these cases, we need to evaluate and troubleshoot what may be going on. For instance, if we say our "leave it" too late, that is, once the dog's nose is already sniffing the item and getting ready to pick it up, it would likely go to deaf ears. Fun fact: when dogs sniff, they use 30 percent of their brain to study those odors so there's quite a good amount of concentration going on there. That's also why sniffing is considered such a tiring activity.

So we want to say "leave it" before the dog is already close or getting close at sniffing point. I like to work on "leave its" purposely creating some set-ups. This can be a fun game to play. You can have a helper place some mildly interesting items on a path ( items that are safe and can't be eaten by a puppy in case he grabs a hold of them) and then you purposely walk by them, initially far enough the he can't reach them, and the moment you catch your pup's interest, you would say "leave it" and then feed the higher value treat.

This is a great exercise to consolidate the training for leave it you have started at home. It's also a great exercise for you so that you can work on your timing in catching your puppy before he's already in sniffing/grabbing the item mode. 

An important consideration: when we haven't trained a fluent response to a cue like "leave it" or "come" well enough and the dog therefore doesn't respond fluently to it, we are at risk of creating a phenomenon known as "learned irrelevance."

In other words, we cause those words to risk becoming irrelevant and the dog starts no longer being responsive to it. So we need to ensure that we set our pups for success by starting with easy leave its and gradually increasing difficulty so that we maintain the power and energy of those words. Learned irrelevance is our enemy as it ends up draining that power.

For me, in that case, it's a matter of safety... Is there a way to limit the impact of those forced removal? He's definitely turning the head when he senses I will go for it, but if he doesn't take the treat, I'm not sure I want to leave him chewing on a used Covid mask...(we train Leave It, which is OK at home with a kibble, but way more difficult outside with a new thing he never saw before)

Scanning the environment is one of the best things to do in these cases, I call it the defensive driving version of walking puppies. My hubby is often upset with me when we go for a walk and I am bringing along a pup and I never pay attention to what he tells me. This is because I am constantly scanning the road for things on the ground and stimuli approaching. I become the dog's eyes and ears. I struggle concentrating in this state of mind. I am overly cautious because there are things out there that can really harm a small puppy. I imagine walking with a toddler surrounded by potentially poisoned candy on the floor. No phone allowed on these walks!

The moment I notice something on the ground, I will walk at a distance from it so that the pup can't get a hold of it even if at the end of the leash, or if the pup knows "leave it' I will purposely walk close enough to it to the draw the pup's interest, but not that close that he can snatch it. I will say "leave it" the moment he makes eye contact with it and reward with the treats in my treat bag or pocket. 

To answer your question about limiting the impact of a forced removal, there is a strategy I use, but I practice this a lot before hand at home, so that the pup always has a positive association with it and isn't startled or defensive. It's mentioned in this article under "mouth inspections:"

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/the-importance-of-preventing-resource-guarding-in-puppies/

I am posting that section here:

"Getting your puppy used to having his mouth checked is good for getting your puppy used to having his teeth brushed and mouth checked by your vet, but also in case you ever need to retrieve some item out of his mouth.

Every now and then, open your puppy’s mouth open and stick a tasty treat inside. At some point, if you catch your pup with an item in his mouth (that he isn’t prone to guarding), let him sniff a super high-value treat as you gently extract the object from the mouth, promptly replacing it with the tasty treat. This will make your puppy more collaborative and help him learn that when you remove something from his mouth, something tasty will follow. However, aim to train your puppy to “drop it” so he’s a willing participant and you no longer have to manually extract things."

As Jennifer has mentioned below, you need to work on finding what your pup really loves.

*Note for Jennifer:

Yes, Jennifer you are correct! We aim to form those strong associations so that, when the dog hears leave it or drop, it's music for their ears sort of like "ding-ding-ding! you just won the slot machine!"
 

[FrederykBlot]

Thank you for your answers and your help, both Adrienne and Jennifer

 

I was pretty sure the cooked chicken and apple was like value amongst the highest but the real world proved me wrong

 

Problem with learned is that it's tough to know beforehand. When "leave it" worked with cooked chicken at home, I was hoping at least to have a minimum during walks, but it's like the difficulty is multiplied by 100 and the focus on us is divided by 100 😂 and we ended up with several cues repeated in the void

 

Anyway you must be right about environment control. As the area around is really nice, we sometimes walk a little casually (never with the phone, we want walks to be a special time with us and pup), even giving him some freedom using a long leash... We don't want walks to be only restrictive, but we'll sure try to put a better scanner eye

 

 

[Adrienne]

Sounds like a good plan, keep us posted on how things go!

[FrederykBlot]

This subject is awfully tricky.

 

Painful experience today : 

we were in an authorized farmer area, with a big field. In high herbs, way impossible for me to see beforehand, he got a fresh chicken leg, I guess a drop by  the farmer...

He stopped and chew on that during several minutes... Nothing did matter anymore. I try a recall, nothing... We try running away with crazy noises, nothing... I tried approaching and trade with treats, nothing, not high value enough against an unprocessed chicken leg... And when I tried to approach the mouth, he turned away and even growled on me

 

I have to admit I saw no other way around, and after several minutes of trying and waiting... I forced it out, while he was dodging and growling...

I gave treats after, then did some sits with big treats reward to try to compensate for being the bad guy just before

I felt bad after, (and actually still does), but I felt really stuck there as he seemed to have found the holy grail and I forced it out

 

 

Among our treat, I'm not even sure about one that can compete... The paste of his lick mat perhaps...

After this bad event, is there anything I should do ? Rework some trust building with some hand feeding ? Or what's done is done, s**t happens, nobody was killed and I'll just to add that as an expérience to be even more careful and bring the liver paste ?

 

 

he never growl at me in a non playing way before... That hurts more than the puppy biting 😅

 

[JMFS]

Awwww.  I ran into that often with Momo.  He was truly aggressive when it came to food so I felt Just as you did, completely at a loss.  I learned to train him the alpha way so I'd use my legs to bully him into dropping it by walking into him so he'd have to get up - not kicking, just kind of slowly scooting him away with my legs.  That turned Nasty one day and started me down a totally different path with him. He never did bite me, but we got close a couple times.  The last 3 years with him were a complete turnaround and our lives were so very much happier together.  Those first 8, though . . . yikes.

Some @?#$ threw a rib bone over our 6' fence the other day, or maybe some jerk carrion bird dropped it after plucking it from someone's trash.  Either way, a Very sharp rib bone made it into our yard and Gertie found it (we have 1.3 acres so it's difficult to monitor every inch).  I've been trading up with her since I got her and this time saw me without anything to trade; however, since we've been practicing this for so long I was able to take the bone from her mouth (it was like a stileto it was so sharp) and then get her to walk back to the house with me so I could give her something proper to snack on.  We definitely need to reinforce "drop" around here so mental note on that one.

I'll be curious to read what Adrienne has to say on this because Gertie has always allowed me to remove things, but Esther likes to do the chase game and while she's learning to trade we're not there just yet.  I have been practicing putting treats in their mouths while pretending to inspect what's in there.  It was like prying open the jaws of an alligator at first, lol, but we're getting there.

For yard treats I am going with the bully stick suggestion.  I can fold them into my shirt and then tuck that part of my shirt into my waistband so I can be hands free and the girls can't smell them as easily.  Esther has a championship worthy nose and will just follow me around thinking she's getting something out of it otherwise.  Definitely going to start nose work with her.

[FrederykBlot]

Thank you for the sharing

 

It shows how dogs are such wonderful créatures, and that even if you messed up at some point, the willingness to do good and reacting accordingly will prevail and gives you and your dog a good life

 

As my pup is so young, and building himself, I'm often afraid that one mistake, or one slip on my part will mess him up for the rest of his life.

I may underestimate their resiliency

 

 

I think the liver paste has some potential. Last walk he got a sheep poop... Nothing dangerous here, but he happens to lick our face sometimes (normally off limits, but can happens when he's in our arm), and we don't want to mix licking our faces with any kind of poop 😂😂

Put a little liver paste on my finger, and offered it with asking a drop, and that worked... Sheep poop maybe not as valuable as fresh chicken leg, but it's encouraging

 

Kind regards

[JMFS]

They truly are forgiving beings.  A slip up here and there will be shrugged off as we learn to communicate with our furry companions.  I predict with your inquisitive nature and kind heart Loki is going to be one very much loved, and lucky, pup. 

I agree on the face licking - yuck!  Dogs put far too many questionable items in their mouths for my comfort!  I've taught all mine not to lick.  Even if it didn't bother me (it does) I wouldn't want them licking other people (like my mother) who would be adverse to such a greeting.  Same goes for crotch sniffing - off limits! The husband's dogs . . . they were a lost cause because he and his daughter accept the licking so it was a constant battle of confusion for the little dogs.  They both eventually learned not to lick my daughter (she gets a rash) or myself.  Everyone else was / is fair game, lol.  Abbi sneaks a lick in on me once in a while, but unless she needs help we stay out of each other's way.

[Adrienne]

Painful experience today : we were in an authorized farmer area, with a big field. In high herbs, way impossible for me to see beforehand, he got a fresh chicken leg, I guess a drop by  the farmer...He stopped and chew on that during several minutes... Nothing did matter anymore. I try a recall, nothing... We try running away with crazy noises, nothing... I tried approaching and trade with treats, nothing, not high value enough against an unprocessed chicken leg... And when I tried to approach the mouth, he turned away and even growled on me.  

I have to admit I saw no other way around, and after several minutes of trying and waiting... I forced it out, while he was dodging and growling I gave treats after, then did some sits with big treats reward to try to compensate for being the bad guy just before. I felt bad after, (and actually still does), but I felt really stuck there as he seemed to have found the holy grail and I forced it out.

Among our treat, I'm not even sure about one that can compete... The paste of his lick mat perhaps...

After this bad event, is there anything I should do ? Rework some trust building with some hand feeding ? Or what's done is done, s**t happens, nobody was killed and I'll just to add that as an expérience to be even more careful and bring the liver paste ?

I am sorry to hear about this mishap, trust me, I know how it hurts. I have been through that first growl from a puppy, and it surely emotionally impacts you, at a deeper level than any rowdy puppy biting. 

Here's the thing: Forcibly prying a dog’s mouth open to remove something is at the oppositive spectrum of instilling trust and teaching them to voluntarily drop. Prying the mouth to remove things, often causes them to clamp down harder and convinces them further that we are not trustworthy. It tells dog we are taker and not a giver. 

With a situation as such it is good though that you took several steps to at least to counteract some of the negative effects such prying may lead to. By feeding him treats right afterward hopefully you have dampened some of the negative effects.

Will this negative experience impact your dog? This is not easy to predict, but to play it safe, I feel that it would be important to be implement stricter management and keep on working on establishing trust with resources with lots of positive associations with conditioned emotional responses. More on this in my next post. 

[Adrienne]

"I'll be curious to read what Adrienne has to say on this because Gertie has always allowed me to remove things, but Esther likes to do the chase game and while she's learning to trade we're not there just yet.  I have been practicing putting treats in their mouths while pretending to inspect what's in there.  It was like prying open the jaws of an alligator at first, lol, but we're getting there. "

"As my pup is so young, and building himself, I'm often afraid that one mistake, or one slip on my part will mess him up for the rest of his life. I may underestimate their resiliency. I think the liver paste has some potential. Put a little liver paste on my finger, and offered it with asking a drop, and that worked... Sheep poop maybe not as valuable as fresh chicken leg, but it's encouraging."

I put both quotes together here to discuss what needs to be done in these situations. Basically, what to do when the dog has something high value, but hasn't been trained yet at that level to drop it? I feel that in these cases, it all sums to a multi-modal approach: strict management, training and adhering to hierarchy of life lines should the dog still get ahold of something that needs to be removed from the mouth. 

But firstly, let's take a closer look at how it feels when dogs get ahold of something, especially something potentially dangerous. 

Here's the thing: When a dog grabs something that can be dangerous, he obviously doesn't know it's bad for him. All he knows is that he has found a treasure, and he wants to keep it for himself and enjoy it, possibly lying down in a corner where he can eat it undisturbed.  Suddenly, we appear in the picture.

As soon as we notice our dogs grabs that something, we rush in their direction. However, our dogs don't interpret us moving towards them as us trying to help them. Dogs don't think this way. They live in the moment and don't understand long-term consequences and what will happen to them afterward.  All they know is that they have found a treasure that smells good, and as we rush in their direction, we are trying to steal it from them. 

Since resource guarding is triggered by a fear of losing access to something, it can be said that it's a matter of "mistrust." If you have a wallet full of money, you likely wouldn't trust any stranger getting close to it, but you may be totally OK with leaving it in the bin for X-ray screening by TSA agents. This is because you trust those TSA agents.

In a similar way, you want your dog to trust you. Remember: resource guarding is a totally natural behavior among dogs. No dog would drop food for another dog to eat unless he is either sick, very spoiled or finicky or it's a mother dog catering to a litter of puppies. My Rottweiler Petra, even when she was sick stricken with cancer, didn't want Einstein anywhere near the food she refused to eat. 

Resource guarding is an adaptive trait. If canines relinquished their food to other animals in the wild, especially in times of scarcity, they wouldn't have survived as a species. Even when there is a surplus of food, a dog's ancestors would bury it for later consumption rather than have it out for others eat it. So to teach a dog to drop something, you need to establish a strong foundation of trust. This requires lots of conditioning through progressive steps and the art of fair trading with the goal of obtaining strong positive conditioned emotional responses. In the meanwhile, management is the go-to strategy. 

Management serves several purposes such as 1) prevents us from being in the position of having to remove something from the dog, 2) protects all the progress we have made in training/behavior modification, 3) keeps us safe (a dog who doesn't want to give up something is likely to bite).

So management-wise, let's talk about walks and how to apply management there.

Always Scan the Environment.  We already talked about this. I call this the dog walking form of "defensive driving" because we should constantly be looking ahead for any things on the ground that dogs may want to grab. 

Walk in Plain View. Walk your dog in areas where you can always see what's on the ground. Avoid areas of tall grass (these can also harbor ticks too by the way). 

Skip the long leashes. Skip the long leashes or long lines until your dog is better trained. Retractable leashes should be avoided too. Stick to a 4 to 6 foot leash. 

No off-leash privileges.  Being off-leash is a privilege that I feel should be granted only once dogs have proven themselves trustworthy in sticking nearby and being responsive to their recalls, leave its and drops it and with dogs who are non-aggressive. This is also for the safety of the dogs. 

At home, the same rules apply, avoid access to things your dog may grab that you don't want your dog to have. Keep family heirlooms out of reach, items your dog may chew on and grab and you haven't trained to drop yet, items that may be dangerous to the dog. 

As mentioned, management prevents putting us in the position of forcefully grabbing items from their mouths which can have a negative effect because we're taking away rather than adding. This can also impact a dog's willingness to having his/her mouth touched in the future.

Management also prevents regressions. For example,  if a dog has been reliable in dropping rawhides, but you haven't practiced yet with raw chicken legs, a "confrontation" over a chicken leg, where we forcibly remove it, could cause a regression that would set the progress back even with the rawhides. So this means we need to go back a few steps and work again on establishing more trust with lower value items. 

So your first line of defense is eradicating your dog’s environment of all items he/she has not yet mastered in the drop it exercises yet. "Think of it as hiding all the grade 12 quizzes from the grade 8 student (until he has passed grade 12)," to quote dog behavior expert Jean Donaldson.

So let's say though we are managing a whole lot and one day, out of the blue, an eagle drops a big piece of meat (in Arizona it's mostly vultures which cause me to painstakingly scan over and over a half acre yard before having doggy guests out in the morning) from the sky right in front of your dog on a walk.

 Or...... let's make the issue even more urgent, the eagle has dropped a bar of baker's chocolate (the most dangerous type for dogs). What to do if your dog is getting very close to it (despite scanning the environment, walking in non-grassy areas and using a shorter leash)?

Firstly, make it habit to always carry with you on walks something valuable so that you can work on exchanges. I like to carry with me "moo tubes" which are beef tracheas or bully sticks in my pant's pockets and some high and super high-value treats in my treat bag. 

Life line 1 would be asking the dog to leave it. 

Life line 2:  if the dog doesn't know leave it yet or hasn't been trained to a reliable level, if feasible, move quickly away from the item as if you were just jolted by electricity. With the short leash you can easily do this and you're dog will be easily in the clear. Praise and reward your dog for sticking to your side. If your dog knows how to reliably do attention heeling, and he hasn't spotted the item yet, make your smacking sound and encourage several steps. Praise and reward with the high value treats (leave the super valuable ones for other emergencies).

Life line 3: if the dog has already grabbed the item, asking a "drop it" would be lifeline 3

Life line 4: if the dog doesn't know drop it yet or hasn't been trained to a reliable level, you can show your valuable item (the bully sticks or beef trachea), let your dog sniff it  and see if he'll voluntarily drop. Using long items such as beef traches or bully sticks can help put some distance between your hands and your dog's mouth. 

Line line 5: Alternatively, you can try tossing a variety of edibles (the bully sticks, soft treats) on the ground and see if they'll grab his attention evoking him to drop. While this can seem like a form of bribery, for this rare occasion it's OK because your are trying your best to exert the least amount of damage while also keeping your dog's safety in mind.

Line line 6:  If the item your dog has picked up is something large and difficult to eat in one setting (like a big bone), consider that as you are walking, the novelty of it may wear off, or your dog may get tired of carrying it (or he may get interested in other things) so he may voluntarily drop.  Also with the heat and exertion, they need to pant eventually and they should drop it. 

Life line 7: This is a last resort when it's a choice between that and saving your dog from potential big problems associating with eating something potentially dangerous. If your dog therefore doesn't drop when you show the valued items and doesn't show signs of losing interest or getting tired of walking with it, you can gently and calmly pry the mouth open, remove the item and quickly in exchange place in your dog's mouth several of the softer high value items. Give several in a row to leave a positive strong impression. Of course, this should be avoided if a dog has a history of severe resource guarding and serious biting. 

So be warned: This can be a risky affair. Your dog may try to bite so it's your responsibility deciding whether this approach is really needed.

If worse comes to worse and one is unable to remove the item and the dog eats it,  calling the vet for instructions on how to induce vomiting- if that's an option (not all items can be safely vomited) or going to the vet for a shot to induce vomiting can help, if no more than two hours have passed. Items can also be grasped and removed through endoscopy, antidotes can be given for certain poisons and meds can be given to prevent absorption. Always keep the Pet Poison Helpline number handy. 

For indoors, should the dog grasp something potentially dangerous my favorite method is this one:  Find something edible that is higher in value than what your dog has and that is safe for him to have. Whatever it is, keep it always handy so that you can reach out for it as needed. Make noise with the wrapper, open the fridge, chances are, he'll prick his ears and watch you carefully. Let him clearly see what you are doing. 

At this point, your dog may carry the item in his mouth and come to check what you are doing or he may drop the item he had in his mouth voluntarily once he realizes you have something better. Once you have your high-value items to trade for in your hand, let your dog see it, walk past an open door or baby gate, toss the desired item that way and as soon as he's past the door/baby gate to go get it, close the door/baby gate between you and your dog so that you can safely retrieve the item.

For non-really dangerous items sometimes we can get them to drop using some temporary astute strategies, like having somebody ring a doorbell, grabbing the dog's leash, having the dog chase us around to get them tired and possibly panting, taking them out in the yard, and having a helper remove the item when the dog is far away preferably behind a closed door.

Of course, if a dog is prone to resource guarding, it's important working on the issue with a dog behavior professional for in person guidance and coaching for safety and correct implementation of behavior modification. 

Hope this helps!

[FrederykBlot]

I swear I try my best, but in a "wild" / "natural" environment, like forest, or farmer's field, it's not that easy to be 100% bullet proof

Big herbs, stack of leaves, little holes in a tree, so many places they can find unwanted things where I can't have control beforehand

Besides if walks becomes just a source of stress and hyper vigilance, I'm sure they will sense it and that would become an issue also

 

 

About the management part, i'll try to be even more careful, but I'm not sure I can come to 0 risk, but now I take the liver paste with me on walks for emergencies. It worked for trading animal poop (which is weirdly high value to pup), and also on chestnut, so I have good hopes

 

 

About the "accident", I guess it's too late now. On the same walk, I tried to do easy training to give me an excuse to give him treats. We manage to do more training now during walks... He even managed some "leave it" on horse poop

I have been the taker this one time, I hope this does not take over the balance of me being a giver the rest of the time

 

[FrederykBlot]

Thanks for all the advice in your last message

 

As I read, I may have overreacted in the sense that a chicken leg was not even dangerous... It's just that I didn't know where it was from... Perhaps it was from a sick beast, perhaps it was rotten... The absence of control over what he had and how he did made me think the worst

 

Your message if really helpful to understand what's at stack and what could be done better

 

Actually some elements was on contrary of what I've been told, and that may have caused the issue

- he more often on long leash than short one so he can enjoy the area

- I've been encouraged to detach the leash in safe environnement to work on recall, and give him more pleasure in walks

- the dog walking area in the neighborhood are forest and farmer's field and it's a super for most dogs and owners

 

 

My my... I guess having a pup is a never ending learning journey

Many many thanks for all your help and explanations

 

[Adrienne]

As I read, I may have overreacted in the sense that a chicken leg was not even dangerous... It's just that I didn't know where it was from... Perhaps it was from a sick beast, perhaps it was rotten... The absence of control over what he had and how he did made me think the worst

 

I understand. I would be concerned too. While dogs do better than us in eating raw meat, they can too get salmonella. Puppies and older dogs can be vulnerable

as they have a little more fragile immune systems. If it was cooked, ingesting it can be dangerous too as cooked chicken bones can splinter too. 

 Your message if really helpful to understand what's at stack and what could be done better

 Actually some elements was on contrary of what I've been told, and that may have caused the issue

- he more often on long leash than short one so he can enjoy the area

- I've been encouraged to detach the leash in safe environnement to work on recall, and give him more pleasure in walks

- the dog walking area in the neighborhood are forest and farmer's field and it's a super for most dogs and owners

 

It all boils down to not allowing rehearsal of problematic behaviors and safety. If you have safe areas where you can walk him on a longer leash  and there are very, very slim chances for him to pick up stuff and you can easily scan the area from a distance (not tall grasses), then the benefits are in your favor.  Off-leash for exploration or to train recalls, I feel it's best if done in safely fenced areas that have been inspected first (small areas of course offer  the advantage of being easier to inspect than larger ones). 

 

You will find many points of view on these things, sort of like with parenting kids. I personally prefer to err on the side of caution. Especially with young puppies, who are grabby and eat stuff and who haven't finished their vaccines, (due to concerns of infectious diseases picked up from other dogs like parvo). You said your vet gave you the OK to take him to places because your area is pretty safe, but in the USA parvo is pretty rampant in most areas so vets tell most puppy owners to avoid places that may have been frequented by other dogs or certain wildlife.

 

So to sum it up again about  "drop its" just to provide some clarity, it may be impossible for us to practice with all things imaginable that our dog may grab throughout his lifetime, and of course, you can't practice with things that are dangerous, because the risks at stake may be too high.  However, if we practice with a lot of different and new items, we may gain a generalized response where our dogs will almost reflexively drop when dealing with novel items or in novel situations. So consider that, the more bases we can cover, the more likely, we'll be able to attain a nice generalized response.

 

[FrederykBlot]

Hello,

 

I'm upping this subject again because I read on another post a question related to toys touching / grabbing

I was wondering what this is about ? 

I mean, sometimes, we start a play of fetch, he does not get back to me, so I get to him, take the toy, and fetch again ?

Was this perceive as stealing from him ?

Same for tug : sometimes I win, but when I let him win, he sometimes goes on the side, I go to him, take the toy to redo a round of tug

 

Is there special care to take about toys in play session ?

 

[Adrienne]

I am thinking that it would be important finding out what's going on behind a dog who at some point doesn't want to to bring the ball back or let go of a tug toy. 

Things to question are:

Is the dog not bringing the ball back/ or leaving with the tug toy because:

1) he han't learned how to play the game of fetch/tug at a fluent level enough

2) he wasn't trained to "drop" the ball or the tug toy

3) he doesn't like/understand the game of fetch (here we need to consider individual factors as some dogs don't understand the concept or find it redundant chasing after a ball over and over or tugging at a toy when they would rather grasp the toy and just lie down and chew on it

4) the dog prefers to play a game of "keep away" rather than tug/fetch (not recommended)

5) the dog is tired of the game and would rather chew the toy

5) the dog is possessive of the ball or tug toy and doesn't want to give it away (in such cases you would often see possessive behavior around other objects as well and the dog's body language would look tense, rather than playful)

And of course....you may see a combo of several of these.

Generally, in dogs who love the game of fetch, they voluntarily drop the ball in hopes of having it tossed again. If the dog runs off with it, I would take it as a sign of the dog getting tired of the game or preferring anther type of game, so I would swap it with a different toy he may value more or an edible chew. 

If this is happening due to the dog being tired of the game, I would keep the game brief and fun and then end it with some praise and swapping with a different toy he may value more or an edible chew just to play it safe in case there's an element of resource guarding. I personally like to play tug for a bit, then before the dog gets tired of it, I would ask for a final drop, praise and then scatter a few kibble from my pocket for a small treasure hunt game as I leave with the toy.