One member of the couple

[FrederykBlot]

Hello,

 

I don't know if it's much of a concern, or if it's a real subject, but this week, it would be the first time I'd get alone with pup since we have him.

With Covid both my gf and I and working remotely, and we found a good routine alternating who takes care of pup depending of work / house needs at the time

I spend overall a bit more time than my gf with him for play and training

Also, I do the morning session that goes around 5am to 9am depending on the wake up time, and she does the evening like 9pm to 11pm depending on the wake up of last nap, so I can get to sleep earlier.

 

 

This weekend, she's having a bachelorette party.

First to say, I'm afraid as hell ! She usually provides some time off I need when it's a bit too overwhelming :) and I fear sleep deprivation as doing both the morning session and the night session

But my biggest concern is : should I expect behavior trouble for this weekend ?

Not seeing one of the member of the couple during several days can make weird ? perhaps even distressed ? or depressed ?

If there anything special I must do ?

 

[JMFS]

Surprise, I have experience with this, too!  😆

Abbi is attached to my husband.  Abbi and I tolerate one another - we never really bonded.  Same with Brownie, his other Dachschund who passed in 2015.  Both is dogs were utterly untrained so there was a lot of change when I arrived!

Knowing that history / information, Abbi and I get along fine.  She's high maintenance as I mentioned in your boarding post and that's a bit difficult for me because she's so low to the ground and my back from top to bottom is arthritic and my hips are starting to get angry as well (I'm not even 50, yet!).  Other than her toileting, though, we do fine together.

When it was just the little dogs and me (Momo was outdoors during the day) we got along with no issues except for Brownie's insistence on toileting indoors.  Abbi and I used to play and she'd sit on my lap while I worked or played games in the office or crocheted in the living room.  Brownie would sit on the couch with us.  As soon as the husband came home, though, I was a piece of furniture and they were hopping, panting, running, whining, and in the case of Abbi - making all sorts of unnatural sounds for a dog (she's part seal, part banshee, and part chimpanzee, I just Know it).  They didn't really care when he left and didn't act out, it was only upon his return that all Hell broke loose because they were happy to see him.

I think what you'll experience is a little more work for you and more bonding with Loki.  This can be a special time for you guys. 

Bumping the evening feeding time up to 7 or 8 pm may not affect the morning feeding so you can try that.  If he gets too overwhelming and you need a break you can put him in his play pen with a treat.  In my opinion, it's a good idea to teach them about breaks in the routine because life is unpredictable.  For instance, what if a glass breaks in the kitchen and you need your gf's help cleaning it up, but it's not Loki's normal play pen time?  Well, you don't want him walking on the glass and whatever was in it.  If you're both cleaning up it's going to be tough to keep him out of the mess.  This weekend sounds like an opportunity to teach him about these impromptu stays if / when you're needing a breather.

I've never been one to allow the dogs to tell me when it's time to eat or get out of bed.  Over time they've learned that I don't get up just because they want me to.  As long as their potty needs are taken care of this isn't an issue.  The husband takes them out at around 7 am because Abbi is pestering him at that time every morning so it works out.  I also work from home and I stay up late (2 am - 4 am is common for me because no one is bothering me and I can get a Lot of work done in those wee hours) and thus I "sleep in," some would say.  Waking at 10 am is 6 - 8 hours of sleep for me so I say it's not sleeping in, it's just sleeping, lol. 

Another example of unexpected situations:  I get migraines, and those are unpredictable, so who knows when I may need to take the pups into the room with me so I can wallow in pain in the cold and dark.  I usually have a good sense of when a migraine is coming on (it feels different than a headache) so while I'm still able to I take the girls outside for a potty break and then I prepare my migraine "kit" (A/C to 74°, my tablet playing soothing music (usually Liquid Mind), 4 ibuprofen, a glass of water, and two of the 6 flax seed rosemary / chamomile / lavender / peppermint eye pillows I keep in the freezer - in case anyone needs migraine tips).  I guess the pups either pick up on these preparation queues or maybe sense that I'm out of commission because they all settle and let me wait out the pain as I drift in and out of consciousness.  Having the bedroom well managed helps - nothing for them to get into unless I forget a sock on the floor.

[Adrienne]

First to say, I'm afraid as hell ! She usually provides some time off I need when it's a bit too overwhelming 🙂 and I fear sleep deprivation as doing both the morning session and the night session. But my biggest concern is : should I expect behavior trouble for this weekend ?Not seeing one of the member of the couple during several days can make weird ? perhaps even distressed ? or depressed ? If there anything special I must do ?

How he reacts will depend on several factors such as his level of attachment to your girlfriend, how ingrained his routine with her is, how he copes with changes etc. You will discover this soon, but yes, it can turn into something constructive. 

It was a surprise for me how Einstein waited by the door when my husband went for overnight trips while Petra cared less. When I used to leave instead, both dogs seemed to not care much. Sure, they looked for me a bit but got fast over it. Initially, this hurt my feelings (gosh, I did almost 80 percent of the stuff and they didn't miss me?), but then I reasoned that I was lucky that they settled easily and I could go on my trip without much worry. 

At some point, though Petra started making the connection of my luggage and my trips, where she would start whining when she saw it out,  so I started doing luggage in a closed  room and would take the luggage out to the car when she was in a different area, just to spare her from the negative feelings. 

One thing that comes to mind is to act calm. If you are anxious, Loki may pick up on that, so try your best to be calm. Try to be proactive and not reactive. Ensuring all is in order and having backup plans can help you. For example, make sure you have everything you need handy, plan activities to keep him busy at certain times, have phone numbers handy, rotate his toys, etc. Maybe even plan to train him some cool stuff you can show off to your girlfriend once she comes back home! 

[FrederykBlot]

Thank you for your sharing

 

I guess it would be some experience, as you said :)

 

But there are some things I'm afraid that I think I will need : 

- usually the current schedule is that is in the pen while napping. As the naps are huge during the days, we avoid containing him while he's awake (maybe it's a mistake), and I'm picturing myself needing to contain him during the day, with big tantrum

- I was thinking using chew to counter that. Usually I avoid giving too much edible chews on a day, because of calorie intake, and also consequences on poops : usually first times were followed by less solid stools. Is it less likely to happen as his stomach and immune system had time to build on it

- we have puppy school and rabies shot, and that means : car ride ! without my GF in the back to treat him when he's calm and relax... I fear a regression about the car, as I will have to lure / force him in and out, and nothing to give him during the rides (it would be short ones though)

 

 

Besides, the day didn't start well, I hope this is not a bad omen hahaha : during the morning walk, what I thought was a perfectly safe containing wire in the field, was actually an electric wire. He already touched it without anything happening (thats why it was safe to me), but I guess this time it was activated, and poor Loki had an electric shot...

After that he went hiding in the bush... I try yawning to tell "no big issue here", giving him treats, even luring him with paste... It didn't do, I had to carry him... then after he was walking at the extreme limit of the line, like trying to escape from me... could it be he associated me with the shot ?

How should I react in those case ? My reaction was instinctive, as I didn't really know what to do

Should I redo some trust building ? like hand feeding ? or anything else

Or it will just pass ?

[Adrienne]

- usually the current schedule is that is in the pen while napping. As the naps are huge during the days, we avoid containing him while he's awake (maybe it's a mistake), and I'm picturing myself needing to contain him during the day, with big tantrum.

It's not bad keeping them out more once they are better potty trained. Sure, the full run of the house may be too much at this time, but spending time in the same room (that is puppy-proofed, removing unsafe things) gives them the opportunity to learn how to behave in the home, settle down and we can encourage them independent play and also get them gradually used to us briefly leaving the room to grab something. If a puppy is too clingy, following me around all the time, I will start wandering around the room with no purpose until they tire out of following me.  

- I was thinking using chew to counter that. Usually I avoid giving too much edible chews on a day, because of calorie intake, and also consequences on poops : usually first times were followed by less solid stools. Is it less likely to happen as his stomach and immune system had time to build on it.

There are alternatives to edible chews like their food dispensed in smaller amounts (like in a Kong Wobbler), frozen kibble in a Kong or Topple treat toy, or ice pops for dogs made of bland ingredients for dogs with sensitive tummies. Your vet may also sell special treats for puppies with sensitive stomachs that you can offer. 

- we have puppy school and rabies shot, and that means : car ride ! without my GF in the back to treat him when he's calm and relax... I fear a regression about the car, as I will have to lure / force him in and out, and nothing to give him during the rides (it would be short ones though)

If the trip to puppy school is brief,  so brief that he doesn't have time to get sick, that should help counteract the anxiety element, a little bit at least, as it's a fun place to go. The trip to the vet, would be ideal if your vet could have prescribed something prior to the appointment to counteract the motion sickness as, the more he gets sick, the more he may come to dread the car.  Frequent stops may help. Letting fresh air in the car or keeping the A/C on can  a bit help too. Some dog owners feed ginger cookies made for dogs for reducing nausea on car rides. Some companies sell these on Amazon but there have mixed reviews so they don't really work for everyone.

Besides, the day didn't start well, I hope this is not a bad omen hahaha : during the morning walk, what I thought was a perfectly safe containing wire in the field, was actually an electric wire. He already touched it without anything happening (thats why it was safe to me), but I guess this time it was activated, and poor Loki had an electric shot...

After that he went hiding in the bush... I try yawning to tell "no big issue here", giving him treats, even luring him with paste... It didn't do, I had to carry him... then after he was walking at the extreme limit of the line, like trying to escape from me... could it be he associated me with the shot ?

How should I react in those case ? My reaction was instinctive, as I didn't really know what to do

Should I redo some trust building ? like hand feeding ? or anything else

Or it will just pass ?

Poor Loki! It's sure unsettling, as he doesn't know where it came from so he's likely associating several things with it. Hopefully, he'll get over it quickly. I once spent a day by my in-laws and they have sheep with an electric fence and a baby lamb was just born and happened to stagger a bit and fell right on the fence. He cried but then went straight to nursing and forgot all about it. I hope that'll be the case with Loki too. I would keep an eye on how he does, once he's at home in familiar surroudings.

[FrederykBlot]

Seems the fence will not be that simple.

On the walk yesterday evening, when on the field from another way, he started to freeze and turn around... I don't if he recognized the road, the fence, or perhaps it was the cows he saw, but he was surely in distress

I try to advance while treating but he didn't take the treat... At some point, he just turned around and when straight back as fast as he could while fully pulling on the leash (long one and he pulled at maximum distance) while he usually walks around us... Impossible to get anything from him then, no recall, no look, just him fleeing like a mad man...

Besides his distress, which obviously I would rather he doesn't have, this road is the way to the forest, which he loves, so it would be sad if we wouldn't be able to pass there anymore...

 

 

I guess the way to go there would be counter conditioning, but how specifically ? Starting treating way before the road ? Using only high value ? I suspect the cows, so I soon as we see a cow, I treat ? If I miss the timing, wouldn't that reinforce the fear ? 

 

Thank you for the help

[Adrienne]

Seems the fence will not be that simple. On the walk yesterday evening, when on the field from another way, he started to freeze and turn around... I don't if he recognized the road, the fence, or perhaps it was the cows he saw, but he was surely in distress.

It was a good approach to get to the field from another way, in hopes of him not making the association. However it sounds like that shock from the fence really impacted him at a deep level and he recognized the area. From you description, it also sounds like the fear may have generalized to other things around him at that time, the cows, the area, road etc. On the plus side, from what you mention, it seems like you haven't become part of the generalization if he was OK being around you at home and to go on the walk, so this at least is a good thing. 

I try to advance while treating but he didn't take the treat... At some point, he just turned around and when straight back as fast as he could while fully pulling on the leash (long one and he pulled at maximum distance) while he usually walks around us... Impossible to get anything from him then, no recall, no look, just him fleeing like a mad man...

This tells us he is going into avoidance. The fact he didn't take the treat nor was responsive to you and your directions tells us he was way too over threshold to cognitively function. When your puppy reaches this state, he cannot think clearly and there's therefore little space for learning to recognize the trigger as non-harmful, and therefore, accepting it in future encounters.  However, ironically, when a dog is at this level, there will be plenty of space for another type of learning, that is, learning the best way to survive. In other words, learning how to avoid the trigger (the fence, the cows, the place) in the most efficient way as possible. In your pup's case he does this by escaping. 

Besides his distress, which obviously I would rather he doesn't have, this road is the way to the forest, which he loves, so it would be sad if we wouldn't be able to pass there anymore...

It is a real inconvenience and very unfortunate that the electric fence happened to be right on the way to the forest:(

I guess the way to go there would be counter conditioning, but how specifically ? Starting treating way before the road ? Using only high value ? I suspect the cows, so I soon as we see a cow, I treat ? 

Tackling a dog's emotions such as fear, anxiety, reactivity falls under behavior modification more than actual operantly training (like we do with sits, downs etc). In behavior modification, the goal is changing the dog's emotions towards frightening triggers or events. 

Behavior professionals work on behavior modification mainly using systematic desensitization and counterconditioning. These two work best together as they work in synergy. 

Systematic desensitization consists of strategically planning low level exposures that make the trigger less scary. One would therefore start by walking at a distance from the trigger so that it looks smaller, less intense and less intimidating versus walking right next to it. So if the areas by the fence is the trigger, you would start to walk at a distance from it (like far the opposite side).

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/desensitization/

Counterconditioning works on changing the dog's emotions towards a trigger or event. It mainly consists of pairing the trigger the dog is frightened of with something the dog really likes so that the trigger comes to predict good things. So as you walk at a distance from the fence, you would feed high value foods. These high value foods should be only given in this circumstance.

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/counterconditioning/

There are many techniques based on these methods and many trainers/behavior consultants have crafted their own, you can see some examples here:

The Jolly Routine by Campbell:

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/using-jolly-routine-fearful-dogs/

Exposure Therapy:

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/exposure-therapy/

Look at that (in this case it would be done by looking at cows:)

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/brain-training/university/look-at-that/

Ideally, you would split the goal of passing that area in several small steps which could mean not going all the way through at first until your puppy looks more comfortable. It may go like this, Loki sees a cow, you make you smacking sound and feed something tasty until you get a positive CER: 

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/conditioned-emotional-response-cer/

Loki walks a bit in that area at a distance from the fence without showing much fear? You Jolly him as you walk by and feed several tasty treats. Loki looks uncomfortable? You should take a few steps back. It would therefore most likely take several days of working in the area for a few minutes each day, until he can feel comfortable to walk all the way through. 

Another approach can be leaving the leash loose and rewarding any signs of Loki taking initiative such as looking at the fence and then moving a step forward ahead, by feeding a treat with you slightly behind him so that he gets rewarded for the initiative. With more and more initiative, you may gain him walking through the whole area on his own.

It would look like this: leash is loose at a distance from the area, Loki advances a bit ahead? You praise and reward that by staying in your place and feeding a treat from there (Loki comes to you to get it). Then you wait for him to advance again,  take one step forward (still staying a bit behind) and praise and reward feeding a treat (your pup still walks back to you to get it). With more and more initiative, you may gain him walking through the whole area on his own.

This is inspired by  the treat/retreat game:

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/treat-retreat-game/

However, this is just a simplistic overview. The whole process of working through fears can be quite complex. This is why it is recommended working along with a professional. The biggest mistake made is going too fast through the process by getting closer and closer to the area with the puppy not being ready that level of exposure as of yet. Slow and steady wins the race when it comes to conquering fears during behavior modification. 

Part of a successful behavior modification plan is ensuring the puppy is under threshold as much as possible.

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/threshold-levels/

And recognizing early signs of stress and fear so to not push too much:

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/signs-fear-stress-dogs/

If you expose Loki to overwhelming situations, he'll be likely to "lose it" being unable to cognitively function. On top of this, he can get "sensitized" rather than desensitized, meaning the fearful response risks getting worse. When your puppy reaches this state (being over threshold), he cannot think clearly and there's therefore little space for learning to recognize the trigger as non-harmful, accepting it in future encounters. 

It may help to avoid the area for a few days in hopes of the memory no longer being "fresh" as it is now. Make sure Loki feels safe and happy at home (no stress). Then, one day you can try again carefully gauging how it goes. Caution: allowing him to manifest fear in that area and pulling away will only exacerbate things because he'll on “practicing” to be fearful and practice makes perfect, causing fear to become more deeply rooted. 

Other things that can help if his fear mellows down over the days  is walking him with another confident dog who will cause him to focus on the dog rather than other things in the area. Driving him to the forest and then seeing if he'll be more comfortable walking back, scattering treats along the area beforehand and taking him on a treasure walk where he'll use his nose more than his eyes. Having a helper drive a large van past the area so it visually offers a barrier. 

 If I miss the timing, wouldn't that reinforce the fear ?

The timing is this: Loki looks at a cow, you make smacking sounds and deliver a treat. Looking at cows predicts treats.

Contrary to what we have been told in the past, you cannot reinforce fear because fear is an emotion. The late Sophia  Yin demonstrates this in the video below. Does she reinforce the snapping behavior even though she delivers treats? No, actually the snapping goes away on its own because it's just an outward manifestation of an internal turmoil. 

 

Hope this  helps!

Best,

Adrienne 

[FrederykBlot]

Thank you very much for all the details in the matter.

 

This morning during the walk I get to experience a little and I'm kinda glad because I almost did as you explained.

 

He seemed to definitely have recognized the area or perhaps the type of fence, because we walk on another road with the same kind of fence, but not the one that shocked him (we're in a farmer's area)

He stopped, not really reassured, but didn't escape : I let him look at the fence and the area and I treated. I did with new treats, of dried liver, and they seems really high value to him. He did respond to the treat. So I tried some heel walking, trying to take the road with the fence next to us, while treating here and there. He still responded. I didn't want to be too greedy, and keep it positive for the time, so we backed off a bit and went to another way.

 

 

We went to the field, then at some point he spotted the cow, or another fence. Same here, he sitted, obviously not reassured, but didn't escape. I try to show / point the cow, and treated him with the same treat. I try to advance a little, when he followed, I treated. When he didn't, I stepped back, until being to a point he would come. If he seated for while, I also treated. I repeated a few times, and managed to get to the road in front of the fence. (Yaaayyy) I did treat a lot though, and had to finish with the liver paste as I depleted the dried liver I took.

 

Then we went the other way and I stopped treating. I guess to show him good things happens when he sees cows and fences, and none if they are absent.

Then there were some people and dogs coming by, he was interested by them and we did a little impulse control. He didn't care much of the cow and fence there.

We went back from the same path. I didn't have to treat then and he wasn't escaping (yaaayyy again) but I may have been helped by the fact he found a crow feather. I didn't took it from him until we were far enough of the potential distress triggers, to perhaps make the association "oh when there are cow and fence I even get to have a nice feather"

In the end I traded for liver paste as he started ripping the fur part and I didn't want he swallow some.

 

To finish the walk he ended up authorized to play in the field with another dog while being unleashed so it ended up the best for him.

 

 

I really feel I was on the right track there, specially now after seeing your message as I ended up doing things almost as you recommended. Didn't think to use the smacking sound though, will do next time.

I will avoid the exact same spot where he was shocked, but maybe redo as we did today, in places that may have some triggers but in which he has better mémories, like walking unleashed, or playing with other dogs, or meeting people.

As you say, I intend slow and steady here, but I feel more confident with "the method" now.

 

 

I really get the grasp of what you say about the threshold, as today he responded to treats and we could actually work, while yesterday he was just escaping and not even caring for the treats

 

 

Thanks again so much for your explanations, and the time you take to give so much details and caring.

 

[FrederykBlot]

Just forgot to mention (couldn't edit my previous message)

When we were on the road with the fence, he had a poop, less solid than the one in the morning

I wondering if it's the new treats ? Or could it be it was from stress induced, even if the work seemed to went well ? If so, should I back off with this counter counditioning work or it will pass the more we work on that and he becomes reassured in the presence of those triggers ?

[Adrienne]

So I tried some heel walking, trying to take the road with the fence next to us, while treating here and there. He still responded. I didn't want to be too greedy, and keep it positive for the time, so we backed off a bit and went to another way. .....

As you say, I intend slow and steady here, but I feel more confident with "the method" now. I really get the grasp of what you say about the threshold, as today he responded to treats and we could actually work, while yesterday he was just escaping and not even caring for the treats

Sounds like you are doing a wonderful job! It's not easy, and it's so tempting to progress too fast, but you knew when to stop which is great. Slow and steady, yes, the process can feel sometimes like watching paint dry, but it can feel very rewarding at the end.

Loki is very fortunate to have such a dedicated owner. Keep up the great work and don't forget to pat yourself on your back too 🙂

[Adrienne]

Just forgot to mention (couldn't edit my previous message) When we were on the road with the fence, he had a poop, less solid than the one in the morning

I wondering if it's the new treats ? Or could it be it was from stress induced, even if the work seemed to went well ? If so, should I back off with this counter counditioning work or it will pass the more we work on that and he becomes reassured in the presence of those triggers ?

Let's hope it doesn't turn into diarrhea again. I have seen some dogs get diarrhea from stress, but if you have new treats, and last time he had diarrhea it was also due to new treats, then this recent change could be the culprit. If he has a sensitive tummy, it may be worthy discussing with your vet whether probiotics may help him to strengthen the intestinal flora and/or whether he/she can recommend some high value treats for sensitive tummies. 

[FrederykBlot]

Hello

I'm so happy right now !! This morning we had the most fantastic victory ever !!

During the morning walk we were on a field, after this field there is a little road, and over the road there is another field with a cows pen with of course electric fence

Somewhere before the road he started seeing the cows pen and started to stall.

I really wanted to tackle this issue because in the area it would be too much of an inconvenience if he would be afraid around animals pen, so I tried some counter counditioning

 

I started treating high value each time he looked the cows / pen, and if he would just rest here a bit calmy.

Thank to your explanations about the impossibility to reinforce fear as it's an emotion, I wasn't afraid to have a bad timing, so I treated

When I sensed he was a bit more ok, I advance a little to the road, few steps at the time.

Sometimes he wouldn't follow, so I took just one step, lure him closer, and treat a few times just while seated or watching the cows.

 

My God did I have to treat. At some point, the dried liver didn't do so I had to resort using the liver paste, a tiny bit on the finger each. I was ok with perhaps giving a bit much, but I felt working on weight or diarrhea would be easier that counter conditioning fear. (Please let me know if it's not ok)

We went so slow and steady we extended the morning walk by almost half an hour to do less than 20 meters.

 

But in the end the magnificient point was in the last meters before the road, he actually passed in front of me and started sniffing around as there was nothing wrong !!

We cross the road and ended up in the field where there is the cows pen and I let him loose as a reward. He enjoyed there as it was quite some time he was on this particular field.

The best of all is sometimes he even went sniffing in the direction of the cows !!! I took a picture to show how close we got

 

I didn't have to treat on the way back. He was walking fast, but it was definitely not a fearful escaping, as he stopped to sniff here and there

 

We doubled the walking time, and had to admit it was a bit energy consuming, specially after a wake up at 5:00, but was way worth it. It's all thanks to you and your input and advice, thank you so much for that. I don't think it's over and everything good now, but I'm really hopeful it's something we will manage. We would rinse, repeat, using this path again and also other path where he is still not reassured, until we could walk in the area without him stalling anywhere.

 

I'm just so happy right now I wanted to share that. That must change from my questions or anxious messages lol

[Adrienne]

I am so glad you and Loki are seeing progress already! That's a sign you are very in tune with each other, Loki following your gentle guidance and feel safe with it and you being careful he's not pushed too far. 

In regards to your concern, counter conditioning the fear versus diarrhea, I understand your point perfectly. Fear can be really a big hurdle to work on especially when it puts roots and generalizes.  Of course, the ideal solution would be finding a way to help him without causing the diarrhea as it seems like his digestive system has a "threshold" as well. For weight control, dividing treats into small pieces or offering just a little pate on the finger each time can help.

There are other ways around this. As mentioned, your vet can suggest some high-value treats/foods that are OK for sensitive tummies. Other options that come to mind:

-Using their normal diet for training by mixing it in a baggie with some smelly meat or low-sodium beef hot dogs overnight. Then, the meat/hot dog is removed and since it retains the smell of the meat, it becomes more high value. However, personally, I find that when dealing with fear, dogs seem to do better with soft, easy to eat foods that can be eaten/licked quickly versus crunchy ones that take time to munch on.

-You can ask your vet whether your dog's kibble comes in a canned version using the same protein that you can offer just for behavior modification. You can even slice and dice the pate and then cook it into little soft treats.

-You can buy from your vet canned food for sensitive stomachs and do the same. 

Loki looks happy in the picture. It looks like he just spotted a cow and was looking at you for a goodie. He discovered the perks of "cow watching!"

 

[JMFS]

That's Fantastic!  You strike this lovely balance between care and discipline and Loki is so very fortunate to be in your care.  Your gf will be so proud of y'all!

[FrederykBlot]

Thank you all very much for the nice words

 

This weekend between buddies is over now, and it had been without any major distress unless one : one night he barked in the crate like every 2 hours or so and never did it before... I let it slide a little to avoid the "you bark I come", but then I remembered the diarrhea accident in the crate, but I was suspicious as he usually whines and not bark... I let him out... Nothing except attention seeking... Put him back in... Barking again few hours later...

And I litterally panicked, I was picturing him doing this every night, making us impossible to sleep with the doors open to hear him call the wake up, potty time... And snowball effect, making the whole house falling apart (hahaha yes I'm a bit of a drama king), me calling an européan Victoria Stillwell...

While testing again if it was potty, I noticed I forgot to close the window in the room next to the crate. This was too much stimili : the cars passing, the night birds, the neighborhood dogs barking...

Last night I made all the windows checks, and everything was normal ! Yay ! Big sweat here for me.

 

I'm glad I could did, and it went good, it gave more confidence in my ability to manage him, but I veeeeerrryyyy glad this is over.

The 23:00 --> 5:00 are started to get to me specially with the one of the window thing, and it's time consuming. Being a single parent is exhausting 😂😂

 

[JMFS]

ROFL!  Yes, single parenting is very demanding of a person.  I do the training and the husband reaps the rewards.  I do hear him in the morning when he's taking the girls out and he Is making them wait at the door.  Thank goodness because it's difficult to counter that reward of "run around however you like!"  The dogs train up wonderfully, the husband is a work in progress.  😆😆  At least he takes them out around 7:30 when Abbi is "grrr'ing" at him so I can get some precious sleep.

We (I, lol) had our own situation last night.  Maybe it was something in the air this weekend.  At 3:45 am Esther decided it was time to play psycho pup (major extinction burst - she hardly slept all day).  I was still wide awake working on a database at 3:30 am, determined to finish it, but Gertie rang the bell so I closed up shop and took the girls out.  Esther was being a little monster (or a puppy, your choice) licking the grass (lots of moisture and she's a water addict) instead of going potty, harassing the cat, trying to entice me into a game of chase, trying to entice Gertie into a game of chase (Gertie was like, nope, bed time sister!), finally get inside and it's a game of keep away, close the door and she comes sniffing, open the door and she runs away, close the door, she comes sniffing, open the door and she runs away, sigh.  I fell for it Twice!  I finally managed to herd her into the room where she tries to entice Gertie into play, Gertie ignores (good girl!).  Get Esther into the bathroom and she is hopping and play bowing.  I ignore, brush my teeth, all the while she's acting like a maniac.  4:15 I get her into my lap for a massage to calm her down, this has gone on long enough!  She settles, then realizes she's about to fall asleep, wakes up, bites at hands, hands go dead, licks, no lick!, massage, rinse and repeat 9 (or was it 15? lost count) times and she's Finally calm enough to go to the room and not disturb everyone.  I'm still wide awake, lol, so who am I to judge her?  I'm and adult And the boss, that's who!  She's a growing puppy who needs rest.  Somewhere around 5 am I finally fell asleep.  Wake at 9, snooze, 9:15, snooze, ignore wet puppy nose, etc . . . until 10:45.  Almost 6 hours of sleep will have to do.

These trials teach us, though, that we're pretty darn resilient and can handle what these pups throw at us.  I'm glad your gf is back so you can share the duties again - it's so nice to have even a Little break here and there.

[FrederykBlot]

Thanks for the sharing !

Your story brought me a laugh from the story, a smile for sensing someone in the same boat, much respect for you as your day seemed crazy (I'm sure I would have died on the spot 😂) and hope like as you said, it seems we can be resilient as some point...

I got my part of puppy blues in the face but the more we advance, the better it gets. Because there is less and less new things, after some errors and some victories you understand that you won't be perfect and that's ok, and that pup is his own being and just have to love him just as he fully is and not how you want him to be or think he should be

 

Having said all those beautiful words, you really right resilience build but...

Daaa*****n sleep deprivation is a nasty thing ! 

I'm reconsidering having human babies hahaha

 

 

[JMFS]

Oh, I get downright grumpy when I am sleep deprived.  It doesn't come through when I type because I have time to think about my words.  😉

Consider this about human babies:  at least they don't crawl until 5 months of age and they're Much slower than dogs!  😆

Consider this about dogs: they are trained to poop and pee outside long before babies are trained to use the indoor plumbing

Now I'm considering a pro / con list about dogs vs babies, lol.  For some people there are always plants.  Or pet rocks.

While I sometimes get frustrated, I love having dogs around.  They are the epitome of unconditional love and they're so entertaining.  A woman with a service dog summed them up well; they're like perpetual toddlers in that they will always be dependent on us and in their thinking.  Every day is an adventure to dogs!

[FrederykBlot]

Every day is an adventure to dogs

You're right it is. And they make us one for us as well.

While I sometimes get frustrated

Yeah, frustration can hit hard sometimes. The harder is that it's like hidden from the information out there. It's full of article with beautiful puppy pics and how to do this and that, but not much of "real life"

 

Our first big crisis at home was when we realized summer will arrive and will be likely stuck at home. Before having the pup we said "that's ok, we're in a dog friendly area / country, it won't be any issue to find some place to go"

That's was before we knew and realized that the morning he naps a loooooot... Or that he cannot walk a whole day to visit a city

My gf was feeling really depressed because she's the kind who cannot stay in place, and I felt very guilty because I'm the one who had dogs when younger and wanted one. She is still wonderful with him and consider him part of us now.

But you said it, we become resilient, and manage everyday crisis when it comes... 

For this crisis, we accelerated the pension and dog care research and we booked us already some weekends during the summer, and the crisis has been solved

 

To cope with and fight the frustration, I care less and less about what is right or not. Don't get me wrong, I still want to do the right thing to give Loki the best life with us, but it cannot be done at the price of our own well being, because if we're unhappy and sad with how things are, we won't be able to make him happy.

It was the philosophical moment of the dayb😂😂

[JMFS]

Very wise!  I told the husband last Friday that we can't be held hostage by Abbi.  She has horrible separation anxiety and all four of her legs are wrapped up right now because she keeps popping the stitches when she's left home alone.  We've tried medications and I've attempted counter-conditioning and all the good stuff around here, but until the husband is on board it's all for naught.  If he goes to her as soon as she whines then I'll only ever be able to train her to not freak out about Me not being around.  As long as a human is here she's fine, but once we leave she is an absolute mess.  I leave the house maybe once per week, which is Fine until it's not.  I'm a hermit in training and prefer to stay home until I'm Required to stay home.  I do like to venture out into the world once in a while.  Sometimes.  Not often, lol.  I have my dogs, crochet, computer games, puzzle books, and a big yard so aside from necessities there's no need for me to leave the house and I don't like to travel.

Anyway!  That led up to him calling his daughter and asking her if they'd like to hang out at our house for a couple hours on Fridays so we can at least go eat dinner without worrying.  They can swim and Abbi can be with people she knows and loves.  Esther and Gertie can stay in the office - they'll be okay.  I think she's agreed to this arrangement.  It works in their favor, too.  My grandson is in a wheelchair (the short story - he'll be 6 this year and has been incapacitated since 18 months I believe it is, she adopted him after marrying his dad) and they've been doing water therapy to try to get his legs working.  Being able to use our pool is a Fun therapy And Abbi is taken care of so maybe both his and her legs will eventually heal!

You're right, we have to let the little things slide.  Having dogs has taught me so much patience and temperance.  I'm still learning, and have a lot of work ahead of me, but compared to where I was before Gertrude it's like a whole new me.  Esther is challenging that progress, lol.  She's doing Very well, but I forget she's a puppy because she's as big as Gertie now and I expect her to be as well-behaved as Gerts.  Then again, Esther's recall is Amazing compared to Gertie's, "I can't hear you" attitude.  Esther Wants to be with us - unless she's feeling frisky.  Then her recall isn't so great, but even in those instances she's pretty easy to convince to come to us.  I have to repeat, "she's a puppy, she's a puppy" because she's so doggone smart and seems to get things right away and then proves me wrong, lol.  We were accident free for 5 days and I thought we were in the clear, but she surprised me yesterday with an accident inside after being outside for 30 minutes.  I need more patience . . . now!  :D

[FrederykBlot]

Hello

 

I'm upping this thread again, as I have some questions about something with my gf
As I mentioned already, Loki seems to have develop "another relationship" with her than with me
He seems to look more for her, he cries when she leaves or when wakes up after me, he's always more expressive with her than with me, she has better "party"

 

On the other hand, we have a little concern because he's more "rough" with her
He would play bite stronger, even grabbing the arm and pulling it. He would try to jump on her more, even try some humping
Those things he wouldn't with me. We notice it happens more when he's in a tired / overexcited state
She tried ignoring, lamp post, stopping the interaction and going away, but still  at some point, he would be excited again and go on with this kind of behavior

 

It's like he knows I'm the one in charge, but she's more like a play companion
It also remind me of a parenting scheme like "you don't mess with Dad", but "Mom is more nice, I'll be more clingy to her, but also more naughty"

 

I guess she interacts a little less on a daily basis, as I do the morning session, and she goes more often to her office, so it may be more attention seeking directed to her

 

Question is, what can we do to let him these behavior towards her ?
I mean, we're ok if he has his preferences for this or for that, but with him growing, the biting and arm-tugging are less easy to take
Should we do normal stuff like redirecting and preventing behavior as in the very beginning ? 
As he's not doing it with me, we're not sure the problem is to address biting or humping itself
Should she just interact with him more ?

 

Thank you

[Adrienne]

 

Question is, what can we do to let him these behavior towards her ?

 

As cute as he is, it would be important that your girlfriend act calm and use a calm tone of voice around him and follow the same rules you have established. If she must praise, it must be done in a lower tone, that doesn't cause excessive excitement. It would help to involve her in the training. Take turns training, side-by-side, you first ask for a sit, praise/reward then right afterward she does, then you ask for a down, then she does, etc. 

Should we do normal stuff like redirecting and preventing behavior as in the very beginning? 

 

Yes, preventing the behavior and encouraging calm interactions is important. 

 

As he's not doing it with me, we're not sure the problem is to address biting or humping itself

 

Both biting and humping need to be addressed. 

 

Should she just interact with him more ?

 

I would base the amount of interaction on how much he is able to stay calm without engaging in biting/humping/jumping or other over the top behaviors. If the interactions are mostly hyper, best to limit them, to prevent rehearsal. The more he is calm, the more he gets to be around her. This can work to your advantage since Loki seems to want to be near her. So you can use her presence as a reward for him acting calm. The moment he engages in the earliest sign of hyper behavior, she can get up and leave the room. Once calm, she can return and stay for as long as he remains calm.

 

She tried ignoring, lamp post, stopping the interaction and going away, but still  at some point, he would be excited again and go on with this kind of behavior.

 

It's important to enter slowly and not interact upon entering the room. Just walking in calmly, no talking, touching, eye contact. If Loki tries to bite/hump upon her entering the room, she does an about face and leaves. Then she tries returning again slowly and ready to leave at the smallest sign of acting hyper. 

 

If Loki must be pet, it should be done when he is not hyper and he should remain calm. Asking for a sit and petting him briefly, before he gets to the point of wanting to bite/jump/hump etc. If she wants to sit for some time, she can ask for hand targets or sits and toss kibble at a distance to encourage alternate behaviors and give Loki other activities to replace the excited behavior. 

 

 

 The use of a baby gate can turn helpful for this type of training. He can learn to see her from behind the baby gate and not react in a hyper way. Alternatively, an indoor tether can keep her at a distance from her until he is in a calmer state. If your girlfriend's praise make Loki hyper, you can do the praising for the behaviors you like until she's able to praise in a tone that doesn't hype him up. 

 

We notice it happens more when he's in a tired / overexcited state

 

Careful when he's in this state. Providing him a safe edible chew and a place to chill would be important. 

 

 

[FrederykBlot]

Thank you for the insights

From what you say, it seems we allowed too much that he's excited around her, and should we be less tolerant to any kind of hyper state around her

 

As cute as he is, it would be important that your girlfriend act calm and use a calm tone of voice around him and follow the same rules you have established. If she must praise, it must be done in a lower tone, that doesn't cause excessive excitement. It would help to involve her in the training. Take turns training, side-by-side, you first ask for a sit, praise/reward then right afterward she does, then you ask for a down, then she does, etc. 

We try to as much as possible, but not on every aspect
For example, we brush together, like one treating, one brushing, evening walks are together, but I do morning alone
It's true we do not do obedience at the same time. Mostly me, and sometimes she does

We pay attention to our tone. In the beginning, we were a bit at the "dominance" school, like big shouted "NO" in case of bad behavior, and other stuff I wish I didn't do, but now most of it calm, even when cutting the interaction : a firm but not shouted "no mister !" and walking away

 

We are around in what you say, butI think we just wait a little too much and tolerate for long

He would start to bite, to tug, she will try to remove the arm, he will go again, she would dodge, he would finally get it, tug with more strength, which would be the ending point ==> We will now not accept even the first tug

For humping she would be chilling, he would come, start to paws on her, she would turn her back, or dodge a bit, he would get back, get the paws on, and the humping position ==> after the first paws, (in the case we could prevent it) if he doesn't respond to "paws on the ground", we will cut here also instead of getting another round of him trying

 

Thank you for the help ! We'll implement that and see how it goes ! I sense we will do quite some trips in the cellar now (it's the "interaction-cutting room :))