Robert Posted June 25, 2021 Posted June 25, 2021 Hello, I am new to Brain Training 4 Dogs. We are taking home our new English Mastiff Puppy in a weeks time. I am a bit overwhelmed with all the information in the training as a whole. Reading over the material and watching the individual videos is fine but there is so... much, I am not sure what to focus on first. Any guidance or suggestions on what to focus on initially when we bring her home? We plan to crate train, so that along with potty training definitely will be a start. Looking forward to hearing some suggestions as well as any personal experiences from those with this breed of dog. 1
FrederykBlot Posted June 26, 2021 Posted June 26, 2021 Hi I've been there not long ago If I had to re do it, my first concern would be impulse control, as it's a matter of security - fluent response to his name - response to smacking sound and look at me - drop it - leave it - sit - stay - come when called This seems to be very basic, but what you have the impression that going well at home will find a deaf ear when outside, or playing, or following critters... The other thing would be "life training" - crate and pen if you have - car !! This one should not be underestimated - handling and manipulation : touching collar, paws, putting harness and leash Because you just don't want every day basic doing becoming a fight every time Life saving tips : - forcing naps is life saving and life changing, as a cranky, bitey, not wanted to do anything puppy is likely tired but don't want to miss out - do not be greedy and cheap on the chews : chews are mental stimulation, and also calming. The right chew at the right time on a devil possessed puppy may transform him into an angel it seems a lot for just a start, but hope it'll help please post in the picture post when you have him 😉 5 1
Adrienne Posted June 26, 2021 Posted June 26, 2021 Hi Robert, Welcome to the forums! You have received excellent tips above. For ease of navigation, I will provide some of the links where you can find all the guides. The first days, it's mostly about getting the pup used to his new place and the crate and starting potty training. Puppy may whine at night so keeping him in the bedroom with the crate nearby can help him habituate and can help determine when and how often to be taken out (2-3 trips at night/early morning are not unusual initially.) Love the crate exercises: https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/video-archive/love-the-crate/ Main article on potty training: https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/7-secret-potty-training-strategies/ Advanced potty training program: https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/advanced-potty-training/ Obedience guides are found in the link below. Since your dog is likely a young puppy you will need to factor in short attention spans, so make those training sessions brief and fun (you can start with just 2-3 minute sessions spread in 4-5 sessions throughout the day and see how it goes.) You want to end the sessions with your puppy still having fun so to inculcate eagerness to being trained. https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/brain-training/obedience-101/ Importance of socialization: https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/socializing-your-puppy/ Smacking sound: https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/the-airplane-game/the-smacking-sound/ Handling exercises: https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/exercises-to-teach-puppies-to-tolerate-touch/ Bite inhibition and bite inhibition games: https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/biting-mouthing-nipping/ https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/bite-inhibition-games/ https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/train-dog-take-treats-gently/ Prevention of resource guarding: https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/the-importance-of-preventing-resource-guarding-in-puppies/ Brain games are great to keep your pup busy and mentally stimulated: https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/brain-training/ As your puppy develops, exercises to prevent separation anxiety: https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/exercises-to-prevent-separation-anxiety-in-puppies/ With a large breed dog as a mastiff, tackling jumping early is important: https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/behavior-training/jumping/ If you search the forums you will also find loads of extra tips for puppy nipping and lots of other puppy related info. Keep us posted when you get your pup! Happy training! Best, Adrienne 2 1
Robert Posted July 2, 2021 Author Posted July 2, 2021 Thank you FrederykbBlot and Adrienne for the information! Adrienne, the first and third link will not open for me. Both say I do not have access. All the others are fine. Is there something I can do to access these? We brought our girl home today. She is such a cuddly one. Now to implement some of the trainings into our routine. 2
Adrienne Posted July 2, 2021 Posted July 2, 2021 What a cutie! Thanks for posting the pictures! Sorry, those links indeed are not working for me either, here is the link to the main potty training guide: https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/7-secret-potty-training-strategies/ These potty training threads may also turn helpful: Happy training! Best, Adrienne
FrederykBlot Posted July 3, 2021 Posted July 3, 2021 So cute ! Congrats and have a long loving time with her
Robert Posted July 9, 2021 Author Posted July 9, 2021 Thanks again for the information links. We are progressing very well with crate training. She slept the last 3 nights without whining. YAY! Molly is responding well to the smacking sound. Now I want to focus on leave it and drop it. She is constantly eating grass and rocks on our potty outings and walks around the yard. I am trying to sign into the site to review the material and after entering my information I only get a white screen. Not sure what is going on as this has not happened before. Is there an overall site issue or is it something on my end??
Adrienne Posted July 9, 2021 Posted July 9, 2021 Hi Robert, I have been told by tech support that they are working around the clock on a technical issue that is taking a bit longer to resolve than hoped for. It should be sorted out pretty soon now.
Robert Posted July 9, 2021 Author Posted July 9, 2021 Adrienne, thanks for letting me know! I was concerned it was something on my end. I will revisit the site again later.
Adrienne Farricelli Posted July 9, 2021 Posted July 9, 2021 (edited) You're very welcome! I tested the website and things seem to be back to normal. Happy training! Adrienne Edited July 9, 2021 by alessadry
FrederykBlot Posted July 10, 2021 Posted July 10, 2021 I hear you with the grass and rocks Actually on our side, this is really difficult. Those are ultra high value to Loki. When he's with grass, toys don't do it. Little things that helped on that : - starting an obedience session / working on basic cues - Having him tired beforehand. Eating grass and rocks seem to come from boredom for him
Nicola Clark Posted May 25, 2022 Posted May 25, 2022 On 6/26/2021 at 8:16 PM, Adrienne said: Hi Robert, Welcome to the forums! You have received excellent tips above. For ease of navigation, I will provide some of the links where you can find all the guides. The first days, it's mostly about getting the pup used to his new place and the crate and starting potty training. Puppy may whine at night so keeping him in the bedroom with the crate nearby can help him habituate and can help determine when and how often to be taken out (2-3 trips at night/early morning are not unusual initially.) Love the crate exercises: https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/video-archive/love-the-crate/ Main article on potty training: https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/7-secret-potty-training-strategies/ Obedience guides are found in the link below. Since your dog is likely a young puppy you will need to factor in short attention spans, so make those training sessions brief and fun (you can start with just 2-3 minute sessions spread in 4-5 sessions throughout the day and see how it goes.) You want to end the sessions with your puppy still having fun so to inculcate eagerness to being trained. https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/brain-training/obedience-101/ Importance of socialization: https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/socializing-your-puppy/ Smacking sound: https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/the-airplane-game/the-smacking-sound/ Handling exercises: https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/exercises-to-teach-puppies-to-tolerate-touch/ Bite inhibition and bite inhibition games: https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/biting-mouthing-nipping/ https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/bite-inhibition-games/ https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/train-dog-take-treats-gently/ Prevention of resource guarding: https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/the-importance-of-preventing-resource-guarding-in-puppies/ Brain games are great to keep your pup busy and mentally stimulated: https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/brain-training/ As your puppy develops, exercises to prevent separation anxiety: https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/exercises-to-prevent-separation-anxiety-in-puppies/ With a large breed dog as a mastiff, tackling jumping early is important: https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/behavior-training/jumping/ If you search the forums you will also find loads of extra tips for puppy nipping and lots of other puppy related info. Keep us posted when you get your pup! Happy training! Best, Adrienne Hi Adrienne, these are useful links but.... why does every article assume the dog has been introduced to a collar and leash? How come your advice to Robert didn't include this? why are there not any articles in your website that discuss how to do this? I searched the word leash and there only seems to be one article that comes up - about pulling on the leash (when out walking we nowhere near ready for that yet!) .. nothing about how to safely introduce the leash!! surely the collar and leash introduction is the most basic training next to the crate training when a new puppy comes home? We got a puppy last week (mostly lurcher 3/4 although bit of staffordshire bull terrier 1/4 in there too) she was 9 weeks old and not trained to a leash or collar when we got her.. although we have managed to train her to sit for a treat she still doesnt really understand the verbal cue that goes with it too much yet (which is fine!) ..but the training videos i have watched all seem to have the puppies noses glued to the lure our puppy not as keen as those in the videos I've watched.. Today is her 10th day with us. The first week seemed to be going ok except that she had way too much freedom in my garden and I had no control over her because no collar and leash.... last time I had a puppy was 30 years ago and that dog was trained off a leash and never wore one so this is new territory for me. This puppy belongs to my 15yr old daughter and this is how she wants to train it. We are trying really hard to use positive reinforcement but.. it still feels like there have been more times than i would like when she has been scolded (nothing too awful just a loud no where neccessary a physical removal of puppy from whatever bad decision she has made/is making no physical punishment ... we've been following the advice about using kibble to train them as well as some higher value treats... (actually most of the last 5/6 days I've just been using the kibble to lure her but she seems to be losing interest in that now..) shes either not that food motivated,easily distracted or we're getting it wrong! So, given what I've just said about the use of food to train, the biggest problems I seem to have at the moment is two things.... the leash and whining in the crate. To take the first issue... after the first week of too much freedom in the yard I got a collar onto her a few days ago, I did it gradually and left her for a day or so with just the collar no leash to give her time to acclimatise, she's largely not bothered, although here and there she falls onto her back scratching at it! So far so good.... yesterday I started to give little tugs on it accompanied with a reward (bit of kibble) to try and get her used to the collar being tugged to desensitise her to it as much as possible. I also got a long line for a house line (which just arrived yesterday) and cut the handle off so it cant get caught on anything.. this I have started to put on her every time she is taken out of the crate so that she has it on at all times when not in the crate this is that we don't have to lunge at her to get her or stop her getting into mischief.. in the house its not too much of a problem.. as its largely trailing behind her shes tried to chew it a few times but she is well managed and suervised and so not had a good chew at it (she'd probably demolish it in no time !) she seemed a little subdued yesterday cos she didn't like it, I keep giving her a treat every time I take the leash on and off her.. the real difficulty is when we go into the yard... it s a long line and I try to keep it slack so I'm not pulling her about at all... I'm just trying to keep it slack and follow her where she wants to sniff my aim is to use it just to ensure it limits her reach (ie she cant just go running off in my garden and 'exploring'/getting into trouble) my difficulty is that as soon as she creates tension in the line (by running off further than extent of the line) she then starts bucking and freaking out when she hits the limit of the line. I dont want the leash to be a traumatic experience for her! What do I do? I feel a lot like this has to be our main focus before we can start on other things, as most things seem to need leash training to have been done before we can start on other things.. We are playing tug with her to tire her out and Im using treats to reward the dropping. But I have to say she seems a lot less food motivated this week than she did last week and once I'm outside in the yard forget it! there way are too many distractions outside so once she is bucking I can't get her attention, I just hold onto the lead and get myself to her to pick her up (whilst trying to reassure her verbally) I am not pulling or dragging her towards me, just taking up the line as I approach her.. but the problem is she clearly feels punished by this thing that has got her by the neck and it has now started her to try and run from me when i approach her to pick her up when she's panicking, whereas when shes not on a leash i dont have too much trouble apporaching her (unless she has something she shouldn't!)... My 2nd question is about the crate, we were doing not so bad most of the first week(or so I thought) we had the crate door open and had put a bed in there for her (a wicker one witha cushion in) she liked this bed very much but... she started to chew on it and I felt it was causing us to scold her too much so i took it away and just put blankets in the crate, (last night was 3rd night with just blankets she tries to dig at them here and there I try to ignore her doing this) we move the crate around one of us sleeps in the lounge with her in the crate at night presently so that we are nearby to reassure her or attend to her if she wakes, the overnight is not so much of a problem but the daytime is more difficult.. although I'm trying to give her 3 meals a day she doesnt ever eat all of it at once and we are using half of a meal as lures so effectively she is just grazing.. I'm feeding her in the crate but she doesn't eat all her food at one go. When i put her in for a nap she might whine a little but i ignore that knowing shes been fed, toileted, stimulated, played with and tired out and she goes to sleep fine. I was watching some training videos (not yours from before we signed up to your course) and these trainers were managing to leave their puppy in the crate a lot more from day 1 and they said the dogs shouldn't have the run of choosing when to go into the crate but should be in there most of the time apart from when you take them out...This made me worry that we were doing loads of things wrong but when I tried to do keep her in there more she didnt like it so much so we had to go back a few steps... my question is if you shoudn't take them out when they whine and you have to wait for them to quieten down how do you ensure that they dont get stressed out and it make the crate a negative experience? so specifically I mean if she is just waking or if I have just randomly put her in there for a bit to relax in the daytime? I have watched everything I can find of yours about crate training and I saw what you said about building anticipation so I'm going to start using your suggestion about putting her food in there and closing the door before letting her in there to try and build some anticipation. Is there a fine line between her whining in the crate and being traumatised in the crate? When she wakes up I assume that she will need the loo and take her straight out, one of the moments when I'm abit unsure is if I'm pottering about my house while she is sleeping in her crate I mightnt know shes awake until I hear her whining... so then what? If she's just woke I assume that she probably needs to pee, Am I supposed to wait for her to stop whining? or do i take her out toilet her and put her back in the crate so that she just assocaites her whining with me taking her to the loo? (is this positive or negative?). Anyway sorry for such a long thread but I've had a really good look through your website (ive not managed to read everything yet obviously as we only joined yesterday) but am desperate to get some good advice about this so we don't do the wrong thing! I also understand everything takes time and i certainly dont expect instant results with such a young puppy I just want to do the right thing with introducing these two devices I've never used with a puppy before - leash and crate! Thanks Nikki On 6/26/2021 at 8:16 PM, Adrienne said:
Adrienne Farricelli Posted May 25, 2022 Posted May 25, 2022 Hi there, Welcome to the forums! Please see my responses in bold: Hi Adrienne, these are useful links but.... why does every article assume the dog has been introduced to a collar and leash? How come your advice to Robert didn't include this? why are there not any articles in your website that discuss how to do this? I searched the word leash and there only seems to be one article that comes up - about pulling on the leash (when out walking we nowhere near ready for that yet!) .. nothing about how to safely introduce the leash!! surely the collar and leash introduction is the most basic training next to the crate training when a new puppy comes home? In a perfect world, we would expect dog breeders to introduce puppies to a collar and leash. This is a very, very basic teaching that can be very easily started from puppies at a very young age. I have seen great breeders starts this very early, with even day-old puppies already wearing a collar of different colors so to help differentiate one puppy from another. This is great as they get quickly used to wearing them at a time when they are "sponges" and very adept into accepting things. It's a big pet peeve of many of us dog trainers when breeders fail to get puppies used to basics such as collars and leashes, crates and being handled in general. It's a shame because the younger the pups are, the easier it is. Failure to do this, leads to many problems to new puppy owners down the road. There is an article on introducing the leash and collar and it falls under the puppy handling exercises. It's under handling because there is handling involved in getting pups used to collars and leashes along with grooming equipment. Notice that I have provided this link in the reading material sent to Robert when he asked. If you scroll down this article, you'll therefore find the collar part under "putting on collars" and the leash part under "happy leash attachments." Don't skip the exercises to get used to collar grabs. https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/exercises-to-teach-puppies-to-tolerate-touch/ If you have any questions about the process or are struggling with any parts, feel free to post here. I will post more info shortly as I finish reading through your post.
Adrienne Farricelli Posted May 25, 2022 Posted May 25, 2022 Today is her 10th day with us. The first week seemed to be going ok except that she had way too much freedom in my garden and I had no control over her because no collar and leash.... last time I had a puppy was 30 years ago and that dog was trained off a leash and never wore one so this is new territory for me. This puppy belongs to my 15yr old daughter and this is how she wants to train it. We are trying really hard to use positive reinforcement but.. it still feels like there have been more times than i would like when she has been scolded (nothing too awful just a loud no where neccessary a physical removal of puppy from whatever bad decision she has made/is making no physical punishment ... we've been following the advice about using kibble to train them as well as some higher value treats... (actually most of the last 5/6 days I've just been using the kibble to lure her but she seems to be losing interest in that now..) shes either not that food motivated, easily distracted or we're getting it wrong! Your pup is very young and they have very short attention spans at this age. She may not be sure about what she needs to do with the food, so we may need to take some baby steps. Training session need to be very short and fun at this time. If there are a lot of distractions going on, you may need a higher value treat to grab her interest (like when outdoors, or in presence of children other pets, lots of noises). If you post more about what you are trying to train her, I can further add some tips and we can do some troubleshooting. So, given what I've just said about the use of food to train, the biggest problems I seem to have at the moment is two things.... the leash and whining in the crate. To take the first issue... after the first week of too much freedom in the yard I got a collar onto her a few days ago, I did it gradually and left her for a day or so with just the collar no leash to give her time to acclimatise, she's largely not bothered, although here and there she falls onto her back scratching at it! This scratching at the neck is very common, they are a little wobbly so when they scratch they end up rolling over, but things get better over the days. Keeping her distracted from it helps, like playing with her or letting her explore the yard. Make great things happen when wearing the collar! So far so good.... yesterday I started to give little tugs on it accompanied with a reward (bit of kibble) to try and get her used to the collar being tugged to desensitise her to it as much as possible. I also got a long line for a house line (which just arrived yesterday) and cut the handle off so it cant get caught on anything.. this I have started to put on her every time she is taken out of the crate so that she has it on at all times when not in the crate this is that we don't have to lunge at her to get her or stop her getting into mischief.. in the house its not too much of a problem.. as its largely trailing behind her shes tried to chew it a few times but she is well managed and suervised and so not had a good chew at it (she'd probably demolish it in no time !) she seemed a little subdued yesterday cos she didn't like it, I keep giving her a treat every time I take the leash on and off her.. the real difficulty is when we go into the yard... it s a long line and I try to keep it slack so I'm not pulling her about at all... I'm just trying to keep it slack and follow her where she wants to sniff my aim is to use it just to ensure it limits her reach (ie she cant just go running off in my garden and 'exploring'/getting into trouble) my difficulty is that as soon as she creates tension in the line (by running off further than extent of the line) she then starts bucking and freaking out when she hits the limit of the line. I dont want the leash to be a traumatic experience for her! What do I do? I feel a lot like this has to be our main focus before we can start on other things, as most things seem to need leash training to have been done before we can start on other things.. We are playing tug with her to tire her out and Im using treats to reward the dropping. But I have to say she seems a lot less food motivated this week than she did last week and once I'm outside in the yard forget it! there way are too many distractions outside so once she is bucking I can't get her attention, I just hold onto the lead and get myself to her to pick her up (whilst trying to reassure her verbally) I am not pulling or dragging her towards me, just taking up the line as I approach her.. but the problem is she clearly feels punished by this thing that has got her by the neck and it has now started her to try and run from me when i approach her to pick her up when she's panicking, whereas when shes not on a leash i dont have too much trouble apporaching her (unless she has something she shouldn't!)... She needs to learn that the leash is a predictor of good things and needs to learn how to give in to the leash pressure, using the exercises discussed in the handling article. However, with a long line, she may be running too fast and once she reaches the end of it. the tug is stronger than using a leash. Start the training/conditioning exercises indoors when sitting on the couch with a regular leash and then progress to walking around the house and then in the yard. Great things happen when she gives into leash pressure! You want to train it to a point where she develops a positive conditioned emotional response where upon reaching the end of the leash, she'll look at you and then come to you for a tasty treat. This is also a good foundation exercises for leash training once she's ready. More info about conditioned emotional responses: https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/conditioned-emotional-response-cer/ You may also need to work on creating positive associations with being picked up:https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/the-importance-of-picking-up-small-dogs-and-puppies-safely/
Adrienne Farricelli Posted May 25, 2022 Posted May 25, 2022 My 2nd question is about the crate, we were doing not so bad most of the first week(or so I thought) we had the crate door open and had put a bed in there for her (a wicker one witha cushion in) she liked this bed very much but... she started to chew on it and I felt it was causing us to scold her too much so i took it away and just put blankets in the crate, (last night was 3rd night with just blankets she tries to dig at them here and there I try to ignore her doing this) This is very common with playful and mouthy pups. You did good to replace the bed with blankets. Digging is natural as they have this instinct to dig and turn around before lying down. Ignoring her when she digs may help if the behavior is attention-driven, but if it's just out of instinct, it's self-reinforcing so it may just keep on persisting. Before living in comfy homes and being provided with comfy beds, dogs were often sleeping on grass. It was a normal instinctive ritual to walk in circles before lying down for the purpose of scaring off any hidden critters and to flatten out the grass. When it was hot, it wasn't unusual for dogs to dig themselves a cool little place through the dirt. While grass and dirt can sustain this type of damage with nobody getting majority upset, seeing a dog bed get ruined from digging, day after day, can end up being costly and disappointing overall! So no dog beds until she's mature enough to understand that dog beds are not for digging! We can help them though by providing them with something to chew when in the crate so to keep their mind off the digging. A stuffed Kong or a bully stick provided once the pup enters the crate, may help them lie down quickly and focus on something, and therefore skipping the digging part, while also creating positive associations with the crate. Some dog owners have also had success towels or using Primo Pads, special pads made of a special material that is scratch-resistant and not much appealing for dogs to chew and destroy.
Adrienne Farricelli Posted May 25, 2022 Posted May 25, 2022 we move the crate around one of us sleeps in the lounge with her in the crate at night presently so that we are nearby to reassure her or attend to her if she wakes, the overnight is not so much of a problem That's actually good! So many puppy owners struggle at night, get very little sleep as pups won't settle once the lights are off and wake up too early or repeatedly at night, so it's nice to hear you aren't having many issues with her bedtime routine. but the daytime is more difficult.. although I'm trying to give her 3 meals a day she doesnt ever eat all of it at once and we are using half of a meal as lures so effectively she is just grazing.. I'm feeding her in the crate but she doesn't eat all her food at one go. This is not uncommon with pups who have short attention spans and are easily distracted. One thing that may help, is removing the food bowl after a specific time so that she learns that if she doesn't eat it all at once, it's gone and not offered until the next meal time. So for instance, you can put the food bowl down for 15 minutes, and if she doesn't finish it, remove it and offer it later with her next meal portion. However, please check on this with your vet first. Sometimes, pups who don't readily eat their whole meal at once may be sick or having tummy troubles or they may be stressed by something and some pups may not do well with the bowl removal trick as their blood sugars get low if they don't eat until their next meal. When i put her in for a nap she might whine a little but i ignore that knowing shes been fed, toileted, stimulated, played with and tired out and she goes to sleep fine. I was watching some training videos (not yours from before we signed up to your course) and these trainers were managing to leave their puppy in the crate a lot more from day 1 and they said the dogs shouldn't have the run of choosing when to go into the crate but should be in there most of the time apart from when you take them out...This made me worry that we were doing loads of things wrong but when I tried to do keep her in there more she didnt like it so much so we had to go back a few steps... It could be these pups came from breeders or trainers who acclimatized their pups to the crate from a young age so they had most of the work cut out for them, however, I find it a bit concerning that they say to keep the pup there "most of the time" considering that young pups are in their prime time of socialization so they need ample of opportunities for play, exploration, handling exercises, socialization and training. Yet, what do they mean by "most of the time"? 90 percent time in the crate 10 percent out? -that would be way too strict.. 60 percent in the crate, 40 percent out?- that's less worrisome. When gauging how much time in the crate versus how much time out, we need to consider that every pup and situation is different, so we need to factor in several things like age, breed, energy levels, how much exercise/socialization play they get, how well conditioned they are to being crated, how their potty training is going etc. Every pup is different and we are always on a learning curve with each one. Of course, we shouldn't be giving young pups the run of the house or too much freedom as that can be overwhelming and tiring as pups need lots of sleep, and too much freedom/ overstimulation can put a dent in their potty training and they can get very cranky when they don't get the sleep they need, so as in many things in life, the best way is the golden way in between, that is, not too much freedom, not too much confinement and carefully gauge how pups do with their routines, carefully adjusting things accordingly. At this point, forcing your puppy to endure longer crating times when she's hasn't been conditioned to stay in there for briefer stays, would be very stressful, so it's important to take baby steps and work at their comfort level. my question is if you shoudn't take them out when they whine and you have to wait for them to quieten down how do you ensure that they dont get stressed out and it make the crate a negative experience? I have watched everything I can find of yours about crate training and I saw what you said about building anticipation so I'm going to start using your suggestion about putting her food in there and closing the door before letting her in there to try and build some anticipation. Is there a fine line between her whining in the crate and being traumatised in the crate? When she wakes up I assume that she will need the loo and take her straight out, one of the moments when I'm abit unsure is if I'm pottering about my house while she is sleeping in her crate I mightnt know shes awake until I hear her whining... so then what? The "love the crate" section states this: "Avoid opening the crate when your dog is whining or pawing, or you may be reinforcing the behavior. Instead, open the crate when your dog is quiet. If your dog whines or paws, take it as a sign that you have gone too fast in the process. Try crating him for briefer times and build up duration at a steadier pace." What is implied here is that, if you catch your puppy repeatedly whining when crated, that's a potential sign that your pup isn't ready for being crated for that long. So take a few steps back in the process. Now, there is whining and whining and understanding the subtle nuances may take some time as we get to know our pups better. There is the type of casual whining like "hey you! get me out of here!" and there's the type of whining like 'help! I am scared and super stressed, please help me!" The first type of whine there's not much risk in ignoring it, the latter needs help. When in doubt though, I feel it's best to err on the side of caution, so going a few steps back in the process I feel is important. This is big subject of controversy in the dog training world, as it is in the field of raising babies (should mom go to the baby every time he cries at night or will that teach him to cry more and more?) Some very recent studies came out suggesting that ignoring can cause stress and repercussions, which is is why I prefer to ensure pups are well acclimatized to the crate. so specifically I mean if she is just waking or if I have just randomly put her in there for a bit to relax in the daytime? If she's just woke I assume that she probably needs to pee, Am I supposed to wait for her to stop whining? or do i take her out toilet her and put her back in the crate so that she just assocaites her whining with me taking her to the loo? (is this positive or negative?). These are great questions and there's no sure answer as there are variables. If she is whining, we need to therefore carefully try to evaluate why. If it's near her potty time, she needs to be taken out. If it's not, and she just seems to be seeking attention, we can wait a bit for a small break in whining before opening (keeping in mind the phenomenon of extinction bursts), if it's stress whining we need to intervene and find ways to reduce such stress. In general, we put potty training as a priority so if it's close to potty time and the pup whines, we take them out, and then we can always work on extinguishing any attention-seeking whining that may have accidentally occurred as a result once the pup has better bladder/bowel control. The reason for this is that, if a puppy whines and we ignore and the pup pees in the crate, this can become a big habit that sets back the pup a lot. However, we can also set the stages for preventing whining for pee in the first place, by taking them out *before* the urge gets so strong ad impellent to evoke whining, and thus there's that benefit of putting them on a schedule. Anyway sorry for such a long thread but I've had a really good look through your website (ive not managed to read everything yet obviously as we only joined yesterday) but am desperate to get some good advice about this so we don't do the wrong thing! I also understand everything takes time and i certainly dont expect instant results with such a young puppy I just want to do the right thing with introducing these two devices I've never used with a puppy before - leash and crate! No worries, the more details the better! I am sorry that you weren't able to readily find the info you needed and it sounds like you really needed the help. I am glad you stopped by the forums. There are so many individual variables and situations when it comes to dogs and their training that a cookie-cutter approach can't be applied to all. Let me know if you have any other questions/concerns and please feel free to post here with updates! Happy training! Best, Adrienne
Nicola Clark Posted May 26, 2022 Posted May 26, 2022 Hi Adrienne, (wednesday 25th) I'm definitely not in the "you spoil the kid by going to it" school I'm into attachment parenting with babies! Most of her whining has been fairly low key kind of attention grabbing but can be a bit ow, ow, ow, ow, if she's got going a bit more, It's not been for more than a few minutes (unless we're eating a meal) I'm there waiting for her to stop so that I can let her out, but should I ignore her and not look at her atll while shes whining? or should I talk to her (give her attention) and try reassure her with my voice? (this is what I've done with her at night, if needed the first few nights I would go and open the crate and fuss her and stroke her to sleep again then close the door again). I'm just starting to read the handling articles you mentioned so I can work out what to do with the leash at toileting time, and yeah you're right about her getting a run up, Im generally keeping the line short enough that its not full but enough there to have slack and her not feel like I'm on top of her while she's sniffing around to find somewhere to toilet, and to ensure the lead doesnt get pooped or pee'd on! but after she's done her business she wants to explore and she got a bit of the zoomies which I've been trying to get the right stimulation balance for those not to happen! But yeah I try to make sure she doesnt just go from slack to tension in one go and I call her and try to get her to chase me (rather than her thinking I'm going to chase her!) Have used some higher value treats today when toileting her so I was able to get her attention enough to reward her when she pee'd and poo'd, she's getting the hang of sit, I just want to get her comfortable with the collar and leash and make progress with the crate a little so I feel like our daily routine is manageable then I'll feel able to relax enough to start working on other things but yeah I'm not trying to do big training sessions just using the opportunities in the inevitables like toilet food and play to try set her up to be right but she not really susceptible enough to the lure yet! Was trying to use some of her kibble allowance so that I dont overfeed her. but maybe I need to mix it up a bit more! Regarding the crate and duration, -in terms of the videos I watched I guessed they meant most of the time because they sleep so much when they are small! I always put her in there to sleep.. a couple of times a day she'll fall asleep on one of our laps but we put her down once shes had a cuddle and been asleep for a bit, its about the balance of how much when she's awake.. my routine at the moment is to always take her out straight away when she wakes up from any sleep, if she doesnt go we come back in and I try to get some play to stimulate her and then we try toileting agains this usually ok we keep her out and play with her a little I try to watch she not getting overstimulated too we use tug to try tire her but only a few minutes not ages, we've got a lick mat and have soaked her kibble then sqaushed it in there and frozen it and/or put a little peanut butter in there to try keep her busy at our meal times. She's usally awake for an hour or two at a go sometimes less all depends but she sleeps a lot in between she gets up around 7 if last time i toilet her is around midnight then she's usally up until 09:30 ish then sleeps till lunchtime then similar although she might have a few shorter naps in the afternoon and more shorter stints of being awake and asleep then longer sleep in the evening after evening play its 22:52 now as I type she was asleep for at least an hour while ive been doing something and she woke up about ten minutes ago. (Thursday 26th May) I've read your crate article. What are the signs early signs that the puppy is getting uncomfortable or frustrated? ie before the whining starts? I've felt that since she's been unhappy with me about the leash and being scolded a couple of times that she is less engaged with the food lures although using the higher value treats since yesterday has made her a little more interested again. She was an escaper at the puppy mamma's house (her and another were the escapers) so she is obviously very clever! I'm concerned that she wants to escape again, today when we went outside and she has done her business she wanted to rip up my plants and bushes and dig, I try to distract her with a stick which only works a little even though she loves chewing sticks.. she went to my front gate and keeps trying to squeeze her head under the gate to see if she can get out or she jumps up at the gate to peer over the board I've attached to it to ensure she doesnt just walk through the gaps in the gate. I feel like sometimes its possible to lure her with food but not always! I have managed to reward all her peeing today although not her poop as she wouldnt take the treat she was so busy sniffing... She is very lurcher.. I know you have some articles about digging too so I will go and look at those. Today I've done a little tugging on her collar and rewarding, I say tug each time I tug, do i treat each tug? or can I give several little tugs and just treat once? should I build up how hard I tug? and what is the hardest I should tug? I dont want to hurt her but I'm guessing I'm looking to desenstise her to the kind of force she exerts on the leash... oh and I have one more question how do i guage the right time for attempts at training? I'm just incorporating small things that fit with the routine of taking her outside for the loo and playing with the tug toy. It says when she's calm and quiet but I feel like she's only really calm like this when she's tired and then will she be too tired for training! I'm feeling like a bit of failure today, it's been hard to interest her/engage her this afternoon, she wasnt too bad this morning, but this afternoon she just whined to go out a lot but each time I took her out she didnt want to do any more potty just play and I'm trying to limit that outside until we've got the nag of the leash a bit better... I did throw a stick and encourage her to play with it, but brought her in when she started trying to eat my honeysuckle and get her head out under my garden gate.... Anyway thats probably a load more questions from me lol!
Adrienne Farricelli Posted May 27, 2022 Posted May 27, 2022 I'm definitely not in the "you spoil the kid by going to it" school I'm into attachment parenting with babies! Most of her whining has been fairly low key kind of attention grabbing but can be a bit ow, ow, ow, ow, if she's got going a bit more, It's not been for more than a few minutes (unless we're eating a meal) I'm there waiting for her to stop so that I can let her out, but should I ignore her and not look at her atll while shes whining? or should I talk to her (give her attention) and try reassure her with my voice? (this is what I've done with her at night, if needed the first few nights I would go and open the crate and fuss her and stroke her to sleep again then close the door again). That's a great mindset! Thank so you much for sharing the pictures, she's adorable! I am all for reassuring the pups their first nights as it can be very stressful. I like to keep the crate nearby the bed and then dangle my arm down and talk and pet them to reassure them they are not alone. As the days go by though and the pups start adjusting, I gradually move the crate a bit farther and may use a Smart Pet Love Snuggle Pup behavioral aid for those who still struggle a bit. This is a fairly new, brilliant invention that has helped me a lot. So to your question, when I am sure that the whining stems from attention (basically, I know all her needs have been met, she doesn't need to potty, she's not hot, thirsty, stressed or terrified of being alone, and she seems OK being crated) it helps to send these pups the message that calm behaviors get us to open the crate, while impatient behaviors do not. So the concept we want to send is that "patience pays." So what I do with pups who whine like this is this: let's say a pup is in the crate in a room whining, I would wait by the door for a little break in the whining and immediately enter the room and walk her way, nothing emotional, just matter of fact. She starts to whine again? I make an abrupt turn and show my back. The whining intensifies? I manage to leave the room. The whining stops? I turn around and go back towards the crate. The whining resumes? I turn around again. Whining stops again, I walk back. I like to particularly turn around/ walk back towards the pup sloooowly almost to show that I am very tentative about what happens next. Almost to send the message "I am walking your way, but I am very carefully paying attention to what you are doing, if you keep quiet, I'll keep moving your way, if you make a sound I will turn and even the leave the room if it persists." I basically, help the pup understand how it's her choice whether I 'll get closer to the crate. After several trials, most pups get the idea that quiet gets you closer and even open the crate, while whining gets you farther away and even leave the room if it persists. Now, a phenomenon to be aware of with attention-seeking whining is the so-called extinction burst. Here's an example of an extinction burst: Let's imagine a mom who always gives in and buys candy for her toddler when she cries upon visiting the grocery store. Then, one day the child's dentist notices the candy is ruining the child's teeth. So from the next day, no more candy. At the store, the toddler therefore cries, and cries and cries in hopes of candy, and then eventually starts throwing a super big temper tantrum at the store (behavior getting worse), since the crying is no longer working as before. What happens though if, after several days in a row, the mom is super determined to not give in? After the crying has gotten temporarily worse, it eventually extinguishes just like a fire that is deprived from oxygen. Moral of the story: if you decide to totally ignore your pup's attention-seeking whining expect the behavior to get worse before it gets better. During the extinction burst your dog may whine louder and for longer or she may even try new behaviors in hopes of re-gaining attention such as mouthing at the crate or pawing at it. If you stick to the plan though and not approach when whining, after such increase, you should see the behavior gradually declining and then eventually extinguishing (other than an occasional whine here and there due to another phenomenon known as "spontaneous recovery." What happens though if during an extinction burst, you happen to inadvertently give any attention? This can create setbacks. The reason is because now, you will have reinforced persistence. In other words, back to the toddler example, what would have happened if the mom would have given in and bought candy right when the child had a tantrum, yelling and screaming to her embarrassment? This would have caused the old behavior of crying for candy to make a quick comeback, becoming even more established than before! Now, if mom decided again to be more determined to not buy candy, she would likely have to go through more intense yelling and screaming behaviors because the toddler has learned that if she insists, and reaches mom's breaking point, she can finally get what she wants. Sure, dogs may not intently think in such a way, but extinctions bursts are a real thing and we are destined to encounter more hurdles if we inadvertently reinforce a behavior during this delicate stage. Now, here's where things get complicated. If we recognize attention whining, and work hard on reducing that, that day we are late from work and our pup is crated and urgently needs to potty and is whining and we go open the crate door, we may risk having a comeback of whining for attention, even though in this case the underlying motive was the urge to potty. Inconsistencies aren't much our friend in training dogs because they create confusion, just like dogs who are allowed sometimes yes and sometimes no on the couch. It's the power of an intermittent schedule So there are three things we can do: 1) wait to work on attention-seeking whining when inside the crate later on, once the puppy has better bladder and bowel control, has been accustomed to being in a new place and does fine in the crate and is a little more independent, or 2) work on it from the get-go but being super diligent in doing our best of not putting the pup in the position of having to urgently be let out (which can be a bit of a challenge in the case pups have diarrhea or urinary tract infections), and ensuring the crate remains a positive, great to be in or 3) work on it intermittently-going with the flow, basically trying to tackle attention-seeking whining when it seems to stem from attention, and getting the pup out when we suspect something may be amiss. As we familiarize with our pups more, we may be able to differentiate the different types of vocalizations, although some smarty pants pups learn that if they vocalize a certain way they get us running and it may become a part of their extinction burst strategy fooling us. So it's not very easy and we need to consider several variables such as age, how well the pup is potty trained, how well the puppy does in the crate, how long the pups has been in the home, how far away the crate is from the person etc. Some great breeders are now getting really really good in getting pups used to the crate from a young age and potty training them early so that once they're in their new homes a lot of the major work has been cut for the new owners. There's a new program that has come out for educating dog breeders and many breeders are starting to teach puppies from an early age to learn the art of "manding". Pups learn to politely sit quietly in front of the crate to be asked to be let out. So in a young pup under the age of 4-5 months we can certainly introduce the pre- concept of quiet and calm gets you out of the crate (breeders have now started this as early as 4-5 weeks), although we can't be super strict about it because young pups may have their moments of being too over threshold to be able to think about sitting when they need to potty badly or are scared of being left alone or are super excited to see us etc. However, if all needs are met and we keep at it and work though the occasional extinction burst, once the pups is 5 months old and has aced potty training for the most part, and is more independent, and by now the crate feels comfy like his second home, we will have established a nice foundation and now the pre-concept has sunk in as a solid concept and can be even turned into a rule. So I guess it boils down to this, introducing the pre-concept of "patience pays" when pups are young, and then as they develop, making it more of a concept and establish it then as rule that we expect from them now that their bladders and bowels are fully developed and they have all the necessary hardware for more serious impulse control training.
Adrienne Farricelli Posted May 27, 2022 Posted May 27, 2022 I'm just starting to read the handling articles you mentioned so I can work out what to do with the leash at toileting time, and yeah you're right about her getting a run up, Im generally keeping the line short enough that its not full but enough there to have slack and her not feel like I'm on top of her while she's sniffing around to find somewhere to toilet, and to ensure the lead doesnt get pooped or pee'd on! but after she's done her business she wants to explore and she got a bit of the zoomies which I've been trying to get the right stimulation balance for those not to happen! But yeah I try to make sure she doesnt just go from slack to tension in one go and I call her and try to get her to chase me (rather than her thinking I'm going to chase her!) Have used some higher value treats today when toileting her so I was able to get her attention enough to reward her when she pee'd and poo'd, she's getting the hang of sit, I just want to get her comfortable with the collar and leash and make progress with the crate a little so I feel like our daily routine is manageable then I'll feel able to relax enough to start working on other things but yeah I'm not trying to do big training sessions just using the opportunities in the inevitables like toilet food and play to try set her up to be right but she not really susceptible enough to the lure yet! Was trying to use some of her kibble allowance so that I dont overfeed her. but maybe I need to mix it up a bit more! You are doing a lot of great things to help your puppy have a great start! I am thinking it may be best to take her out on a shorter leash, that way you are right there nearby to effectively time your praise and reward and don't need to worry about the line getting peed and pooped on. Then, once she pees and poops, praise that and maybe additionally reward her by snapping on the longer line so that she has more freedom to romp and explore. Many dogs get the zoomies after going potty, they seem to celebrate the sensation of relief. It can be fun to watch. Our Rottweiler Petra used to do that as a pup and as she got older she stopped doing that, but would occasionally run around after pooping with a worried look on her face when there was some poop dangling under her tail (a quite common happening in households with owners with long hair 🙂). That would actually give her a semi-panic attack!
Adrienne Farricelli Posted May 27, 2022 Posted May 27, 2022 Regarding the crate and duration, -in terms of the videos I watched I guessed they meant most of the time because they sleep so much when they are small! I always put her in there to sleep.. a couple of times a day she'll fall asleep on one of our laps but we put her down once shes had a cuddle and been asleep for a bit, its about the balance of how much when she's awake.. In that case, it makes sense, they sleep so much because they have so much growing to do. my routine at the moment is to always take her out straight away when she wakes up from any sleep, if she doesnt go we come back in and I try to get some play to stimulate her and then we try toileting agains this usually ok we keep her out and play with her a little. Yup, that's good! Make it boring going outside, and then if she goes, praise, treat and let her play and explore, if she doesn't go, go back straight inside and monitor her carefully and take her out again in a little while or earlier if you notice signs. I try to watch she not getting overstimulated too we use tug to try tire her but only a few minutes not ages, we've got a lick mat and have soaked her kibble then sqaushed it in there and frozen it and/or put a little peanut butter in there to try keep her busy at our meal times. Yes! That's awesome so that she keeps occupied during your meals. She's usally awake for an hour or two at a go sometimes less all depends but she sleeps a lot in between she gets up around 7 if last time i toilet her is around midnight then she's usally up until 09:30 ish then sleeps till lunchtime then similar although she might have a few shorter naps in the afternoon and more shorter stints of being awake and asleep then longer sleep in the evening after evening play its 22:52 now as I type she was asleep for at least an hour while ive been doing something and she woke up about ten minutes ago. That's pretty good for her age. She's keeping it 7 hours at night and sounds like she's sleeping solid through the night.
Adrienne Farricelli Posted May 27, 2022 Posted May 27, 2022 (Thursday 26th May) I've read your crate article. What are the signs early signs that the puppy is getting uncomfortable or frustrated? ie before the whining starts? I've felt that since she's been unhappy with me about the leash and being scolded a couple of times that she is less engaged with the food lures although using the higher value treats since yesterday has made her a little more interested again. Early signs of stress can be subtle things like lip licking, yawning, or displacement behaviors such as scratching or licking. More are covered here: https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/signs-fear-stress-dogs/ Going higher value can sometimes make the difference. Keep things positive and happy. She was an escaper at the puppy mamma's house (her and another were the escapers) so she is obviously very clever! I'm concerned that she wants to escape again, today when we went outside and she has done her business she wanted to rip up my plants and bushes and dig, I try to distract her with a stick which only works a little even though she loves chewing sticks.. she went to my front gate and keeps trying to squeeze her head under the gate to see if she can get out or she jumps up at the gate to peer over the board I've attached to it to ensure she doesnt just walk through the gaps in the gate. I feel like sometimes its possible to lure her with food but not always! I have managed to reward all her peeing today although not her poop as she wouldnt take the treat she was so busy sniffing... She is very lurcher.. I know you have some articles about digging too so I will go and look at those. You will need to be extra careful. Lurchers have some sighthound blood in their genetics so that means they need to always be kept in fenced areas and on leash. The fence needs to be tall, sturdy and no gaps in the gates. Recalls are a life-long skill to master and it's important to first start in the home before training it in the yard. Today I've done a little tugging on her collar and rewarding, I say tug each time I tug, do i treat each tug? or can I give several little tugs and just treat once? should I build up how hard I tug? and what is the hardest I should tug? I dont want to hurt her but I'm guessing I'm looking to desenstise her to the kind of force she exerts on the leash... oh and I have one more question how do i guage the right time for attempts at training? I'm just incorporating small things that fit with the routine of taking her outside for the loo and playing with the tug toy. It says when she's calm and quiet but I feel like she's only really calm like this when she's tired and then will she be too tired for training! Ideally, we want to reward when she "gives in" to the pressure, so when you do the very light "tug," the moment she walks in the direction to release the pressure (use a food lure initially to help her), verbally mark and reward with the food. I would start with rewarding every tug until you get that positive conditioned emotional response. You need to go very gradually, increasing criteria only once she seems comfortable with the previous step. So start with very gentle tugs and reward for giving in to the pressure (walking towards the direction to loosen the leash), but I would not progress to strong tugs as that can startle her and cause negative associations to the collar/leash. Actually, with time she should learn to respond to the slightest "tugs." You can then let the the tugs happen organically, in other words, walk around with her on leash and if she lags or pulls ahead, you you can gently guide her on what to do to loosen the leash, always rewarding her in the 'reward zone.' Once she gets the concept, you can fade the food lure, by pretending you are holding a treat to lure her in the direction, and then rewarding her from a treat from your other hand. Here is more about fading: https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/brain-training/polishing-up-training/fading-food-lures/ I'm feeling like a bit of failure today, it's been hard to interest her/engage her this afternoon, she wasnt too bad this morning, but this afternoon she just whined to go out a lot but each time I took her out she didnt want to do any more potty just play and I'm trying to limit that outside until we've got the nag of the leash a bit better... I did throw a stick and encourage her to play with it, but brought her in when she started trying to eat my honeysuckle and get her head out under my garden gate.... Anyway thats probably a load more questions from me lol! It would help in this case to take her out to potty on leash and keep things boring, and let her have all the fun only *after* she goes potty. Make this a routine of going potty right when sent out and if no pee or poop is produced within 5-10 minutes, then back inside and try a little later. Otherwise we risk her learning to hold it on purpose so that she gets to spend more time playing outside. Since she is so young and you are always there with her, start introducing a go potty cue as outlined here: https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/potty-on-command/ The great outdoors must feel like a trip to Disney for her! Make sure to fence off those honeysuckle plants as they are toxic to dogs. Keep us posted on how things progress! Happy training! Adrienne
Nicola Clark Posted May 30, 2022 Posted May 30, 2022 On 5/27/2022 at 2:29 PM, Adrienne Farricelli said: (Thursday 26th May) I've read your crate article. What are the signs early signs that the puppy is getting uncomfortable or frustrated? ie before the whining starts? I've felt that since she's been unhappy with me about the leash and being scolded a couple of times that she is less engaged with the food lures although using the higher value treats since yesterday has made her a little more interested again. Early signs of stress can be subtle things like lip licking, yawning, or displacement behaviors such as scratching or licking. More are covered here: https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/signs-fear-stress-dogs/ she was doing a lot of chewing herself the kid they do when they have fleas but she doesnt have any fleas (thing puppy mama made sure to treat any fleas and to worm them before they left home) I'm guessing that might have been stress then? being spereated from your mom and siblings must be pretty stressful alone I guess Going higher value can sometimes make the difference. Keep things positive and happy. She was an escaper at the puppy mamma's house (her and another were the escapers) so she is obviously very clever! I'm concerned that she wants to escape again, today when we went outside and she has done her business she wanted to rip up my plants and bushes and dig, I try to distract her with a stick which only works a little even though she loves chewing sticks.. she went to my front gate and keeps trying to squeeze her head under the gate to see if she can get out or she jumps up at the gate to peer over the board I've attached to it to ensure she doesnt just walk through the gaps in the gate. I feel like sometimes its possible to lure her with food but not always! I have managed to reward all her peeing today although not her poop as she wouldnt take the treat she was so busy sniffing... She is very lurcher.. I know you have some articles about digging too so I will go and look at those. You will need to be extra careful. Lurchers have some sighthound blood in their genetics so that means they need to always be kept in fenced areas and on leash. The fence needs to be tall, sturdy and no gaps in the gates. Recalls are a life-long skill to master and it's important to first start in the home before training it in the yard. My last dog that was a lurcher was trained off the lead and collar completely she never ever wore one I had her from puppy till 11 years old, I have friends with lurchers also that dont wear leads and are completely fine off the lead, my concerns about her trying to escape are just because she is so young and untrained as yet. Today I've done a little tugging on her collar and rewarding, I say tug each time I tug, do i treat each tug? or can I give several little tugs and just treat once? should I build up how hard I tug? and what is the hardest I should tug? I dont want to hurt her but I'm guessing I'm looking to desenstise her to the kind of force she exerts on the leash... oh and I have one more question how do i guage the right time for attempts at training? I'm just incorporating small things that fit with the routine of taking her outside for the loo and playing with the tug toy. It says when she's calm and quiet but I feel like she's only really calm like this when she's tired and then will she be too tired for training! Ideally, we want to reward when she "gives in" to the pressure, so when you do the very light "tug," the moment she walks in the direction to release the pressure (use a food lure initially to help her), verbally mark and reward with the food. I would start with rewarding every tug until you get that positive conditioned emotional response. You need to go very gradually, increasing criteria only once she seems comfortable with the previous step. So start with very gentle tugs and reward for giving in to the pressure (walking towards the direction to loosen the leash), but I would not progress to strong tugs as that can startle her and cause negative associations to the collar/leash. Actually, with time she should learn to respond to the slightest "tugs."ah the tugs I was referring to were just me handling her collar with my hand not the leash You can then let the the tugs happen organically, in other words, walk around with her on leash and if she lags or pulls ahead, you you can gently guide her on what to do to loosen the leash, always rewarding her in the 'reward zone.' What is the reward zone? On the subject of the leash training, it has been very hard to do it in the house since we last spoke and what is particularly challenging for me and her is that even taking her outside on a short leash not long line she still wants to run around and sometimes 'zoom' and that makes her create pressure on the leash and buck, I'm really worried about this creating negative associations with her, she seems to be over threshold very easily when I take her outside, the puppy mama where they came from had a cat flap in the back door that gave the puppies free access to a limited areea of their back yard whenever they wanted it. She is having to get used to the fact that its not like that here so she really wants to go outside a lot and just 'be' out there. Which until I've got her understanding how to behave on the leash I'm having to try and keep the visits to the yard limited to doinfgI've been really ill since my girl got back and so the last few days she has had to do everything for the fdog and cook for us once a day and the puppy whilst in her care has not been sleeping as long as she usally does, this morning i actually had to taker her out at 5am which is first time since we got her, today we had a few visitors which was exciting for her and then my daughter left with the visitors, the pup seemed 'over threshold as soon as I took her out, as soon as she had done potty she started trying to zoom on my short leash so i picked her up and brought her in to calm her down, once she had settled and had her tea i got some high value treat (chicken ) and tried getting her to walk next to me on the leash with it slack - she happily did this with me in the kitchen and while she was at my side I said heel I just had the lure in my hand and didnt give it to her till we would get from one end of kitchen to the other (sometimes she was jumping up as well as walking - do i just ignore this and let it be for a moment? or do i need to try and get her a bit calmer?) I then took her outside and did it in the garden in the hope that she'll start to get the grasp that the slack leash is what we need, my daughter is away again now for most of this week so I'm hoping to make some progress with this week, I kept it short and fun and while I have a little chicken in my hand at least she seems happier to walk at my side with a slack leash, what can I do about any negative association she might have started to develop over the last week or so when she has bucked on the leash in the garden? Once she gets the concept, you can fade the food lure, by pretending you are holding a treat to lure her in the direction, and then rewarding her from a treat from your other hand. Here is more about fading: https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/brain-training/polishing-up-training/fading-food-lures/ I've read about the fading how long should I be using a lure with a specific behavoiur before I start to fade? or is it more about how old she is before we start to fade? she's only been with us a couple of weeks so far, to date we've managed to teach her to sit (but not stay yet will work on that this week) she can target a hand with her nose, she's learning drop (with tug toy) and fetch, she seems to prefer fetching her tug toy to pulling at it sometimes and I just use the really excited calling her to get her to come although recally is still pretty poor so i think she runs back with it cos shes trying to take it to her crate (we manage to get a hold of it before she gets there most times and try tug with her again). I'm trying to keep some of the toys that she really likes as something she only gets to play with with us and not on her own, like the tug toy, is this the right thing to do? I'm feeling like a bit of failure today, it's been hard to interest her/engage her this afternoon, she wasnt too bad this morning, but this afternoon she just whined to go out a lot but each time I took her out she didnt want to do any more potty just play and I'm trying to limit that outside until we've got the nag of the leash a bit better... I did throw a stick and encourage her to play with it, but brought her in when she started trying to eat my honeysuckle and get her head out under my garden gate.... Anyway thats probably a load more questions from me lol! It would help in this case to take her out to potty on leash and keep things boring, and let her have all the fun only *after* she goes potty. Make this a routine of going potty right when sent out and if no pee or poop is produced within 5-10 minutes, then back inside and try a little later. Otherwise we risk her learning to hold it on purpose so that she gets to spend more time playing outside. Since she is so young and you are always there with her, start introducing a go potty cue as outlined here: https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/potty-on-command/I'm doing potty commands and rewards with her The great outdoors must feel like a trip to Disney for her! Make sure to fence off those honeysuckle plants as they are toxic to dogs. Thanks for letting me know that honeysuckle is toxic to them, I had no idea my friends dog always used to go and lie in the shade underneath it, but she wasnt a chewy puppy, I'm keeping her off the lawn with the honeysuckle now as there is no way to fence it off its a climber all along my front fence, I am however starting to cut back the creepers it has thrown across my front garden as its trying to invade! How do i let her enjoy my garden on the leash? she just wants to zoom sometimes but I dont want to let her off the leash as there is too much mischief for her to get into the entirety of my garden is not all places she can go and not get into mischeif and I dont have the resources to fence anymore of it, we really poor, I'm a lone parent who is too ill to work so we have the barest of incomes Keep us posted on how things progress!thanks for taking the time to answer my questions! Happy training! Adrienne
Adrienne Farricelli Posted May 31, 2022 Posted May 31, 2022 she was doing a lot of chewing herself the kid they do when they have fleas but she doesnt have any fleas (thing puppy mama made sure to treat any fleas and to worm them before they left home) I'm guessing that might have been stress then? being spereated from your mom and siblings must be pretty stressful alone I guess As a first step, in general, we want to make sure there isn't an underlying medical issue at play before assuming something behavioral, just to give dogs the benefit of doubt. If she is doing a lot of chewing, it can be many things other than stress such as having a little cut, a splinter, allergies to something-especially if the paws are chewed the most (like walking on surfaces treated with cleaning supplies, fabric softeners, walking over certain grasses). If it's paw chewing localized to a certain area it may be worthy checking the area for swelling and redness. Fleas are tricky because depending on the products used, they may not all be killed at once and some fleas may have survived in bedding hatching eggs and starting the infestation all over and even one flea can cause crazy itching if the dog is allergic to their saliva. So if this chewing persists, it may be worthy a trip to the vet or mentioning it at the next vaccine appointment just to make sure it'd not medically-driven. Sure, dogs may lick/chew in response to stress, and some dogs may do that to soothe themselves before falling asleep. Once medical issues are ruled out, it may help to provide something safe to chew or lick (like a Licki mat) when crated. My last dog that was a lurcher was trained off the lead and collar completely she never ever wore one I had her from puppy till 11 years old, I have friends with lurchers also that dont wear leads and are completely fine off the lead, my concerns about her trying to escape are just because she is so young and untrained as yet. That's great! Kudos to you for being able to train her to that level of reliability! I am basing this info on what rescue adoption agencies warn when adoptees adopt lurchers. Being a cross between sighthounds and some herding type of dog or terrier the sighthounds' history for hare coursing may prevail, but it's also true that being a cross, we may deal with a mixed bag of genes, so there may be chances the chasing after prey and not reliably coming when called when concentrated on chasing may not always carry over in some specimens. I can understand your concerns about her escaping since she's still a puppy and untrained. ah the tugs I was referring to were just me handling her collar with my hand not the leash Ah, OK collar grabs! There is a section in the recall article that covers how to make those less scary to dogs. https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/brain-training/obedience-101/recall/ You can then let the the tugs happen organically, in other words, walk around with her on leash and if she lags or pulls ahead, you you can gently guide her on what to do to loosen the leash, always rewarding her in the 'reward zone.' What is the reward zone? The reward zone is the area nearby you when you are in heel position. The height of the reward zone will vary based on the dog's age and size, but in general it should be next to your knee in a large breed dog. Picture of the "reward zone" You can read more about the reward zone here; https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/brain-training/obedience-101/heeling-attention-heeling/ On the subject of the leash training, it has been very hard to do it in the house since we last spoke and what is particularly challenging for me and her is that even taking her outside on a short leash not long line she still wants to run around and sometimes 'zoom' and that makes her create pressure on the leash and buck, I'm really worried about this creating negative associations with her, she seems to be over threshold very easily when I take her outside So as mentioned, I would skip the long line for now and stick to the leash. With a long line, we firstly need to make safety our top priority, and with a young pup as such, full or energy, we may want to use it only once she's better under control without the risk of her getting a leg caught in a loop and we want it attached to a harness rather than a collar. With the leash training, this takes some time to master and the main problem in your situation is that, without a fence and with a young puppy, you have this extra pressure to take her out on leash to potty every time, and on top of that, she gets the zoomies once out, which is rather normal in as breed who loves to run and needs to stretch their legs, so we may need to take take a multi-faceted approach consisting of the following: -Finding ways to drain energy and prevent the zoomies -Finding ways to keep her focused on you -Training to get her used to the collar and leash as much as possible hoping that it gradually generalizes to the yard. I will be covering several of these more in depth shortly.
Nicola Clark Posted May 31, 2022 Posted May 31, 2022 4 hours ago, Adrienne Farricelli said: she was doing a lot of chewing herself the kid they do when they have fleas but she doesnt have any fleas (thing puppy mama made sure to treat any fleas and to worm them before they left home) I'm guessing that might have been stress then? being spereated from your mom and siblings must be pretty stressful alone I guess As a first step, in general, we want to make sure there isn't an underlying medical issue at play before assuming something behavioral, just to give dogs the benefit of doubt. If she is doing a lot of chewing, it can be many things other than stress such as having a little cut, a splinter, allergies to something-especially if the paws are chewed the most (like walking on surfaces treated with cleaning supplies, fabric softeners, walking over certain grasses). pretty sure its stress chewing, no cuts no inflammation, no cuts, no splinters, the chewing has reduced as she settled in If it's paw chewing localized to a certain area it may be worthy checking the area for swelling and redness. did so paws all fine Fleas are tricky because depending on the products used, they may not all be killed at once and some fleas may have survived in bedding hatching eggs and starting the infestation all over and even one flea can cause crazy itching if the dog is allergic to their saliva. theres defintely no fleas - my house is all hard floors no carpets very little soft furninshings and the little we do have shes not allowed on, she just sits on our laps on the floor or in her bed in the crate (in the kitchen) , which is not the same bedding she had at puppy mamas, her fur very short and so very easy to see any fleas on her if she were to get them, same as her mom, the bedding I bought for her has been washed regularly since we got her like every few days i only use eco laundry liquids no harsh chemicals So if this chewing persists, it may be worthy a trip to the vet or mentioning it at the next vaccine appointment just to make sure it'd not medically-driven. I'm not vaccinating my puppy https://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/why-i-dont-vaccinate-my-dogs-at-all/ and not a great one for going to the vets unless I need to - we dont have the money for constant vet visits! and I dont want most of the things they offer! like pharma drugs or vaccines. obviously if she really needs to see a vet I'll take her - I'm the same with Drs and my children are also unvaccinated just so you have context. My intention with the pup is to use homeopathinc nosodes https://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/nosodes-can-they-replace-vaccines/ Sure, dogs may lick/chew in response to stress, and some dogs may do that to soothe themselves before falling asleep. Once medical issues are ruled out, it may help to provide something safe to chew or lick (like a Licki mat) when crated. We have lick mat and puupy kong so doing that, she doesnt like it if we leave her sight when shes in the crate if shes awake, havent got anywhere yet with leaving the room last night i left her in the crate while i went into adjacent room to get some books i kept talking the whole time so that she could hear me but she still whined and barked My last dog that was a lurcher was trained off the lead and collar completely she never ever wore one I had her from puppy till 11 years old, I have friends with lurchers also that dont wear leads and are completely fine off the lead, my concerns about her trying to escape are just because she is so young and untrained as yet. That's great! Kudos to you for being able to train her to that level of reliability! Got only vague memories of how i did it it all feels a lot harder this time! I am basing this info on what rescue adoption agencies warn when adoptees adopt lurchers. Being a cross between sighthounds and some herding type of dog or terrier the sighthounds' history for hare coursing may prevail, but it's also true that being a cross, we may deal with a mixed bag of genes, so there may be chances the chasing after prey and not reliably coming when called when concentrated on chasing may not always carry over in some specimens. I can understand your concerns about her escaping since she's still a puppy and untrained. thanks 🙏 ah the tugs I was referring to were just me handling her collar with my hand not the leash Ah, OK collar grabs! There is a section in the recall article that covers how to make those less scary to dogs. https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/brain-training/obedience-101/recall/ You can then let the the tugs happen organically, in other words, walk around with her on leash and if she lags or pulls ahead, you you can gently guide her on what to do to loosen the leash, always rewarding her in the 'reward zone.' What is the reward zone? The reward zone is the area nearby you when you are in heel position. The height of the reward zone will vary based on the dog's age and size, but in general it should be next to your knee in a large breed dog. Picture of the "reward zone" You can read more about the reward zone here; https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/brain-training/obedience-101/heeling-attention-heeling/ On the subject of the leash training, it has been very hard to do it in the house since we last spoke and what is particularly challenging for me and her is that even taking her outside on a short leash not long line she still wants to run around and sometimes 'zoom' and that makes her create pressure on the leash and buck, I'm really worried about this creating negative associations with her, she seems to be over threshold very easily when I take her outside So as mentioned, I would skip the long line for now and stick to the leash. We have been since you mentioned it With a long line, we firstly need to make safety our top priority, and with a young pup as such, full or energy, we may want to use it only once she's better under control without the risk of her getting a leg caught in a loop and we want it attached to a harness rather than a collar. With the leash training, this takes some time to master and the main problem in your situation is that, without a fence and with a young puppy, My yard is entirely fenced what i dont have is the resources to fence off any more areas within my yard to keep her from getting into my vegetable beds for example or any other areas that I dont want her getting into you have this extra pressure to take her out on leash to potty every time, and on top of that, she gets the zoomies once out, which is rather normal in as breed who loves to run and needs to stretch their legs, so we may need to take take a multi-faceted approach consisting of the following: -Finding ways to drain energy and prevent the zoomies every time she is awake my routine is 1st take her out for potty then bring her in to play tug and fetch to use up some of her energy -Finding ways to keep her focused on you chicken! -Training to get her used to the collar and leash as much as possible hoping that it gradually generalizes to the yard. Did walking with her on leash around kitchen yesterday with bits of chicken in my hand she followed this with her nose stuck to my hand she leapt a few times too using command walk heel and keeping her in the reward zone (was already using reward zone just didnt know it had a name!) in an earlier post or message I forget which one ,you had mentioned trying to make it boring for them until they have done potty and then let them play... I try to make it boring by standing still keeping her on a very short leash and saying our potty word (dont think she totatlly understand this yet,still rewarding pees and poos with kibble or treat). I've taken her out everytime she has asked and she has just laid down every time I've taken her out this morning apart from her 1st pee & poo I, or started ripping my grass up , so I've taken her back in after a few minutes of this and not being able to get her to walk around, and I've been doing this inning and outing constantly for the last three hours, she finally took a pee in my kitchen which was really annoying cos every time I took her out she wouldnt walk around the yard with me, wouldnt come to her name and here which we were working on yesterday, so couldnt get her to walk as she wouldnt give in to the pressure on the leash. I'm feeling really frustrated and shes not so happy either. I've just never kept a dog so controlled before, - houseline on whenever she not in crate, not free to just run around my yard, she gets to run around my kitchen where she is safely contained, but I dont have her behavoiurs well enough on the lead yet. My daughter is away for the week so I'm here alone I cant go out anywhere or into any shops cos I cant leave the puppy at home on her own in the create yet, it all feels a bit bleak today and my daughter only just left yesterday and not back till next week... I'm starting to feel despairing! I did some walk heel and recall with her this morning in the yard with chicken, she'll do anything for that it seems but not for anything else it feels! (sorry but its been a VERY long morning!) these are the other trainers whose videos I've watched quite a bit of thats why we started using a houseline, so that we can easily redirect her and prevent her rehearsing unwanted behaviours like jumping, nipping, biting clothes or feet (she seems to like doing these things to my daughter the most!) Feel free to delete the video link I've shared with you its just so you can see the other stuff we came across before we found you, they advice never letting puppy bite or nip at all from day 1 which is not the same as your advice, (we are following your advice) I will be covering several of these more in depth shortly. I can't wait! the only reason I signed up for your course course is because we cant afford puppy classes in person and my last dog was very free range and very happy, I'm finding all this crate and leash stuff really challenging hence wanting a bit more help than the random and often conflicting advice on the internet! Thanks for taking the time to answer all my questions Nikki
Adrienne Farricelli Posted May 31, 2022 Posted May 31, 2022 OK, so basically, dogs (unless trained) have a natural opposition reflex and will instinctively pull back away from external pressure. This explains why your pup will pull away and buck when she feels leash pressure. If your puppy has never worn a collar before, it may be worthy investing in a very light collar. When fostering young puppies, I like to start them with the colored collars breeders often use. You want to skip any ID tags for now as they add extra weight and it may further scare the puppy. If you are worried about your puppy escaping, consider getting her microchipped and/or using collars that can have your contact info engraved onto the collar. As for leashes, go with the lightest so it doesn't cause too much drag if you want your pup to drag it around the first days. Also, you want to skip retractable leashes as these really teach dogs to pull. Here are some exercises that may help, some I have already mentioned, but I am repeating them so that you can see how criteria is raised step-by-step and there are also some additional sub-steps if you still are encountering issues. Exercise 1) Training to "Give in" to The Pressure Arm yourself with tasty treats and sit on the couch with your puppy wearing the collar. Snap on the leash (give a treat when you snap it on) and keep it loose and watch your puppy carefully. The moment she moves away, gently put a little bit of pressure on the leash and show her a tasty treat so that she learns to "give in" to the pressure. Praise and reward the moment she walks in the direction to release the pressure. Rinse and repeat several times, until you get what is known as a positive conditioned emotional response. You need to proceed very gradually, increasing criteria only once your pup seems comfortable with the previous step. So start with very gentle pressure and reward for giving in to the pressure (walking towards the direction to loosen the leash. With time, she should learn to respond to the slightest pressure. Exercise 2) Walking Around the Home Once you have obtained a lovely positive conditioned emotional response, you can then let the the tugs happen organically, in other words, walk around with your puppy on leash and if she lags or pulls ahead, you you can gently guide her on what to do to loosen the leash. If you like to use clicker training, you can even click and reward anytime your puppy gives in to the pressure and walks towards you catching up. If possible, try your best to always reward your puppy in the "reward zone" which is next to you. Remember to keep a positive attitude! You want to communicate to your puppy that being on leash is great and that she can easily get rid of any pressure by "giving in" to it rather than resisting it. Exercise 3) Walking Around the Yard Things may get a little more challenging once your puppy is in the yard due to all the enticing sights and smells. You may therefore want to move to this environment more gradually (more about this in the sub-steps). Sub-Steps for Difficult Cases In some cases, you may need to split exercises into smaller steps. For instance, if your pup struggles with step 3 (walking in the yard), you can try sitting outside and do more reps of exercise 1, before actually allowing your puppy to walk around the yard and explore. Once you get a positive conditioned emotional response in the yard, you can then proceed to walk some steps and see how it goes. Your puppy may even benefit from some focusing exercises, where your puppy basically learns to focus more on you rather than thinking about the leash pressure or rushing towards other tantalizing things in the yard. -Teach Sticking Nearby You It may also benefit puppies to start implementing the concept of walking besides you even before you add the collar and leash. I call this the "invisible leash" exercise. Basically, you'll arm yourself with tasty treats, make your smacking sound and keep one treat at eye level. Praise and reward your puppy for walking next you and looking in your eyes. This helps your puppy learn that sticking by your side is extra rewarding and to avoid leash pressure. -Step-by-Step Treat Drop Game Another exercise is to simply attach the leash to your belt or loop it around your waist by inserting the leash through the handle, and practicing walking around the home one step at a time. Basically, start with you standing with your pup next to you and take a step forward and drop a treat. After your pup eats that treat, take another step forward, drop the treat and rinse and repeat until your pup gets a hang of it. Afterward, you can progress to dropping a treat every two steps, then every 3 steps and then you can mix things up by giving a treat every 1 step, then every 4th step, then every 2nd step etc. What to Do if Your Puppy Starts Bucking If no matter all of the precautions, your puppy manages to buck, stay calm and be very quick to divert her attention. You can use a squeaky toy and see if that helps her snap out of the fear and move towards you or you can make a smacking sound with your mouth in hopes of her rushing to you for a treat. Lowering yourself to the ground and making silly noises can help you make yourself more approachable and attractive. If your puppy bucks because she likes to run around on leash or gets the zoomies, try to drain her energy prior to taking her out and work on the focus exercises. Here are some tips: -Do brain games -Play hide and seek (since she's very young for a long sit-stay or down-stay, have a family member hold her while you hide) https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/brain-training/university/hide-and-seek/ -Treasure hunts Here are some games/exercises for clingy puppies: https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/exercises-to-prevent-separation-anxiety-in-puppies/
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