New "Trick"

[JMFS]

So the neighbor has some new Poodle puppies and it was Far too much for Esther to handle.  She was Bonkers.  She so wants to play and their high pitched barks sent her into a frenzy.  Adrienne, this dog is going to be the death of me!  Our gate is metal with bars and she managed to get her 40 lb self through those bars.  You know how she sploots?  Yeah, she's made of rubber and she somehow manipulated her body to get through those bars.  She first stuck her head through and it stopped at her brow.  I was walking over there at this point to try to lure her away with excellent treats (liver).  She Shot through like a freaking missile and woosh!  She was across the street, running their fence line.  I had No idea she could wiggle through.

First defense:  management.  No more off-leash front yard play, which totally stinks because I think I've painted a pretty good picture of how wild the back yard is.  There's little I can do about that - we have about a 10' perimeter that we keep natural so we have privacy.  But, that's where all things gross, creepy, crawly, bitey, and dead are.  This poor girl is going to live her life on a leash if she doesn't settle and if I can't think of something to manage her.  Her recall is great when there aren't other dogs.  Even when Gertie is chasing bicyclists I can call Esther back.

Second defense:  really reinforce her recall.  I am now armed with a clicker and started conditioning her to love that sound last night.  She was scared of it at first, but now her ears perk up and she looks at me.  l think we'll have great success with this.

Third defense:  I know you're not a fan, but I got an e-collar for free to test.  The brand is Pawious and it has vibrate (1 - 99), beep (1 - 9) and shock (who cares, won't be using it and the prongs are still in the box).  My thinking here is to use the vibrate when she gets near the fence.  I tested it today and 16 is about right.   1 - 15 didn't get her attention and 16 seems to be like a tap on the shoulder.  She went near the gate, I hit the button, she looked away, I gave a treat.  Once she stopped going to the gate but looked at it, I pushed the button, she looked away, treat.  I was thinking the beep might work like a clicker.  When she does what I want I can beep, treat.  I'm iffy about this method of vibrate, but if it keeps her safe I'm willing to give it a try.  Thankfully our street isn't very busy, but there was some jacka.. revving his engine and speeding down it earlier today.  All I need is for one of his kind to come by when she's broken loose.  I don't know what about a dead-ending street says, "go 50 mph then slam on your brakes!"  🤬

Fourth defense:  Eventually we'll get to the point of going to the dog park and walking the perimeter.  I can go a Long distance from where the dogs congregate so we have a massive playing field to work under threshold.  She's starting to simply wag her tail and look at me for a treat when there are dogs on the screen now, whew!  I was envisioning us having to buy a new television because she was going to try to hop through it.  Live and up close, though, with scents, it's still a challenge.

This certainly gives us something to think about when we build our next house!  We're downsizing but it's taking forever because we're so doggone busy with work that it's tough to get this house prepped for sale.  Until we build that dream home, I need to come up with some ways to keep this girl safe.

Oh, I got her to come back by using the flirt pole.  She is so enamored with it I think I could walk her off-leash in front of a pack of dogs.  That could be a slight exaggeration, but once I brought it out she was like, "puppies who?" and took the nasty toy at the end, then we walked home like nothing ever happened.  I did not scold or get upset with her, but instead rewarded her for heeling.

The funny-but-not-funny:  the neighbor is Horrible with training - she's a breeder, too!  She came to the fence with the puppies and Esther was happy to be in reach, but the whole time she was yelling (yes, Yelling), "sit! sit! down! stay! sit! sit!"  My happy arthritic self was scurrying as fast as I could (which is not at all, lol) to get her leash and flirt pole!  Poor Esther was sitting there like, "shhhhh, lady, I'm here for the puppies!"  Her poor pups get zero positive reinforcement.  :(

[Adrienne Farricelli]

"So the neighbor has some new Poodle puppies and it was Far too much for Esther to handle.  She was Bonkers.  She so wants to play and their high pitched barks sent her into a frenzy.  Adrienne, this dog is going to be the death of me!  Our gate is metal with bars and she managed to get her 40 lb self through those bars.  You know how she sploots?  Yeah, she's made of rubber and she somehow manipulated her body to get through those bars.  She first stuck her head through and it stopped at her brow."

 

It sounds like Esther is really excited about the puppies and the whole novelty factor. When dogs are in this state of mind (too excited about something or too anxious), they seem to become gifted with some sort of Houdini magic. 

 

Brings me to mind a potential service dog I had in training when I worked for a company that picked up rescues from shelters, got them obedience trained by trainers and then matched them up with a veteran in need who then continued to work with the dog going through an advanced training service dog school.  

 

So they provided me a dog fresh from the shelter of which I knew very little about other than maybe she had a hint of separation anxiety. I worked with her right away in getting her used to being in the crate for an entire week gradually increasing time she spent in it in hopes that I had built it up enough for the day I had to go grocery shopping.  She improved gradually and we were able to build her time in it for half hour. That was enough time for me to go grocery shopping and come back.

 

So they big day arrives, I walk her, then place her in the crate with a stuffed Kong, and a few extra long-lasting goodies just in case I was a bit late. I go grocery shopping, am stopped by a client who chit-chats for a while, then the cashier had problems with her credit card machine, and then on the way back I am stuck in a big traffic jam. Half hour turned into an hour, by the time I got home with terror I noted that 1 hour and 15 minutes went by.

 

Since I didn't know much on how bad her separation anxiety was, I imagined all horror things, like her chewing her paws or breaking her teeth chewing the bars. At a minimum, I was expecting to find her howling and laying in a mess of pee. 

 

When I opened the door, I go straight to the crate and to my shock, it is empty! But wait....what really got me was that, not only the crate was empty, but the CRATE door was latched!  How in the world did that happen? OH-MY-DOG, the crate was latched and no dog is in it? Did somebody steal the dog? Was this a joke or what? Did she get out of the crate and then latched it? If so how? And where is she if she's not in the crate? 

 

 I go in panic mode and finally find her in the bathroom, looking at me and getting up from chewing the toilet roll into pieces with toilet paper pieces everywhere like Halloween confetti!

 

I scratch my head in disbelief.. Ok, the dog is here and the crate is latched! How? So I go to inspect the crate and there are little signs of slight bending in the bottom wires.  With horror I rush to check on her imagining her being disemboweled or something horrific.

 

 I check her belly and there are very, very minor, barely visible scratches. Still as of today, I wonder how she managed to push through the bottom of the crate and I am grateful she wasn't injured. 

 

When I told the coordinator, she couldn't believe me too. She never heard of anything like that. I had recorded her while I was away, but it was unfortunate that my recorder didn't have enough space to record for the whole hour and 15 minutes. The footage stopped at 38 minutes during which she was sleeping after having emptied the Kong and the other goodies. 

 

In any case, as with any challenges that occur, I would take them as a training opportunity. As the novelty of the pups wears off, I would put her on a long line and work on recalls at a distance feeding her several tasty bits of food in a row to leave a strong impact. I would also work on leave its as a backup. The more you work her around dogs (finding that sweet spot where she's in a calmer state) the better. 

 

I am glad you won't be using the shock function, but only the vibrate sort of in the way owners of deaf dogs recall their dogs. However, it may work only when you are out with her. There are good chances that if something pops up while you are not out with her, she'll make a bad decision.  

 

When not training, I would recommend making the gate as "Esther proof" as possible and monitoring her when out. She's young and likely to give in to her impulses when she's out. She hasn't been trained under this type and level of distraction so this is not unexpected. 

 

While it may be difficult to completely "Esther proof" the gate, you may just need something that makes it harder or takes her more time to escape so you have the time to intervene. Like chicken wire or mesh or some panels of chain link to cover the gaps and prevent her from easily squeezing through the bars. 

 

Other options: 

 

Some dogs owners have used puppy bumpers with success with their pups or small dogs. The bumpers have some loops on the inside which allows the Puppy Bumper to be attached to the dog's collar to prevent it from coming off. Of course, you will need to monitor your dog every now and then (some dogs chew them off or manage to remove them) and routinely check the bumper for any wear and tear. I am not sure how well they may work for larger dogs, but here's the Amazon link: https://www.amazon.com/Puppy-Bumpers-Red-Dog-Up/dp/B07CJ3Y6C2/ref

 

Another option of" safe behind bars." Sold by Dog Gamutt, the "Safe Behind Bars" harness consists of a harness the dog wears with a horizontal bar on top that lodges when the dog tries to squeeze through tight spaces. Here is the website: https://www.dog-gamutt.com/products/safe-behind-bars-adjustable-harness There should be some videos on how it works.

 

Finally, you can fatten Esther up, so she can no longer make it through- just joking!

.

[JMFS]

ROFL!  The thought of fattening her up Was entertained.  She already eats 3 cups per day and doesn't gain a pound.  The large breed feeding recommendation is 2 3/4 cup.

I've seen videos of dogs escaping their crates.  The thoughts that must go through their minds to go to those lengths!  And the turmoil you must have felt!  Already anxious because you were late, then a missing dog, followed by the examination for goodness-knows-what damage.  Oof!

I'm looking for a way to disable the shock feature on the remote.  I feel awful about it, but I managed to shock her even with out the prongs.  I guess they don't have to be attached.  I had it turned to the lowest setting Just in case so thank goodness for that.  She acted like something bit her butt and recovered quickly, thank goodness.  They put the shock button right in the middle and I was juggling her treats with the remote in my hand and accidentally pushed the button.  :(  I'll just make sure I don't have the remote in my hand until we're all situated.  I'm contacting them to see about disabling that shock so we don't have another accident.

I was thinking of an invisible fence, but the husband mentioned wire.  I even joked that we have enough Amazon and Chewy boxes to really puppy proof it, lol.  The Puppy Bumper may work as well.  I only have her collar on her if the girls aren't playing and I take it off inside.

The vibrate is excellent!  I used it today for calling her off a tree stump - she likes to chew them.  The first couple times she ignored me but when that thing went brzzzt the second time (I waited a second or two between pushes) she looked up and I called her over, gave her a treat.  The second time she went to the stump and I pushed the button she stopped immediately, I called her over and gave her a treat.  I followed up with the beep once she got to me.  I figure this way I don't have to carry the remote, treats, And clicker.  Level 16 / 99 works well on the vibrate.  I think 99 was made for the Gerties of the world who have no cares to give, lol.  I laid it on Gertie at level 1, did a vibrate test, and she leaned into it like it was a lovely massage.  That girl . . ..

[Adrienne Farricelli]

I'm looking for a way to disable the shock feature on the remote.

I know of some trainers disabling the shock in two ways.  Upon opening the box, there should be two small screws. One way is to snap off the shock prongs and fill the holes the prongs went through with aquarium sealant.  Alternatively, I think the screws can be covered with the rubber tips commonly used for prong collars. This way if one accidentally hits the shock button, it won't shock the dog. However, yes, best to call the company as models may vary and you want to be extra sure no shock makes i through. Or even better, return it and use a vibration only collar or "pager."

  I feel awful about it, but I managed to shock her even with out the prongs.  I guess they don't have to be attached.  I had it turned to the lowest setting Just in case so thank goodness for that.  She acted like something bit her butt and recovered quickly, thank goodness.  They put the shock button right in the middle and I was juggling her treats with the remote in my hand and accidentally pushed the button.  😞 I'll just make sure I don't have the remote in my hand until we're all situated.  I'm contacting them to see about disabling that shock so we don't have another accident.

If she was shocked, this may require extra conditioning to undo any possible negative associations. To be honest though, I would use a vibration collar as a tool of last resort. I mean, her hearing is good, so a smacking sound or any other visual or auditory signal should work, it would just need to be trained over a variety of distractions over time. With the vibration, we need to consider things at different levels. 

While a vibration collar may seem rather innocent, it ultimately boils down to how the dog perceives it. Some dogs can get easily spooked by its vibrating sensation and noise. To a sensitive dog, a vibration collar can be perceived as aversive as an e-collar using shock.

Important is to point out that, how the vibration feels and is perceived is something that is ultimately up to the dog. Sure it may be advertised as "a little tap on the shoulder" while the dog's body language says something totally different. 

There are many other less risky options for non-deaf dogs before considering a vibration collar and these have less risks for possible fallout (possible suppressed behavior, increased anxiety and fear, negative association with the owner, insurgence of new unwanted behaviors ). For instance, dogs can be trained to reliably respond to a verbal cue or a smacking sound/silent whistle from a certain distance. It takes time to build up to that, you may need a long line first, then wean that, and find how to fill the gates' gaps, but it comes with less risks.

Sure, the vibration collar can be used in the least aversive way possible. Through a careful conditioning process it can be used as a reward marker, informing the dog that a treat is coming.  It can also be used to get the dog's attention as a recall, telling the dog to come for a treat.

However, there is thin line between using it in a positive reinforcement manner and a negative reinforcement/positive punishment manner. 

For instance, if the dog doesn't redirect his attention, one may easily be tempted to use a higher setting and keep using it in hopes of getting the wanted response. Using a vibration collar for training in a positive way though is not to stop a behavior due to an unpleasant sensation, but it's meant to increase a desired a behavior courtesy of a history of positive associations. 

If the dog finds the vibration aversive, it's not a good tool for that dog. It's therefore important always monitoring the dog closely, watching the body language and the slightest hint that the dog perceives it as aversive. Important is to also realize that, not always dogs are great at communicating how they feel. It could be the dog is internally finding the vibration aversive, but  we cannot observe that. It can therefore be a non-observable internal perception.

I was thinking of an invisible fence, but the husband mentioned wire.  I even joked that we have enough Amazon and Chewy boxes to really puppy proof it, lol.  The Puppy Bumper may work as well.  I only have her collar on her if the girls aren't playing and I take it off inside.

Most invisible fences use shock. Sure, there's a beeping to alert, but the goal is to use the shock to create a strong impression that potentially stops the escaping behavior. However, can be several setbacks with this. There is a very thin line between making the boundary unpleasant enough to deter the dog from approaching it, and not traumatizing the dog to the point of affecting his well being. There are countless reports of dogs being traumatized by the use of the electric fences.

Dogs live in a world of associations. When they are shocked, they may therefore end up associating the shock with just about anything. Some dogs start associating the shock with the yard. One of the first signs suggestive of this is a sudden reluctance to stay in the yard and wanting to stay in the house. Next, a perfectly house-trained dog may start pooping and peeing in the home, because the yard has become a scary place to be and they want to avoid being there.

In other cases, if the owner or other is nearby, should the dog become scared of the shock, he or she may associate the shock with the owner  or other dog.

Not to mention,according to a study, electric fences have been found to potentially cause instances of redirected aggression in dogs. Five cases involved severe attacks on humans by dogs being trained or maintained on an electronic pet containment system. In these cases, the pain caused by shock, has likely caused these dogs to react aggressively and redirect to a proximate target such as a person nearby.

Here's the thing: When working on changing dog behavior it's important to firstly look at what needs to be taught first and what can be done to prevent the undesirable behavior to take place rather than relying on a tool first. 

It ultimately boils down to, when training dogs, using the least invasive options first before considering the more invasive ones. To better understand this concept, consider that many modern dog trainers now adhere to the "Least Intrusive, Minimally Aversive”- LIMA- strategy. In other words, they are committed to “do no harm” and therefore choose the options that are the least intrusive, minimally aversive as possible first and only consider the other options later. 

Here is a chart that shows how LIMA is applied:

A list of hierarchy of behavior change procedures starting at Level 1 (most recommended) and ending at Level 6 (least recommended). Source; 2015, Freidman, Frtizier Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivs 2.0 Generic (CC BY-NC-ND 2.0) IAABC.org

Of course, everyone is free to choose what tools to use and what methods, but it's important to point out the risks and alternate options that can be used prior to resorting to them.

For example, with a dog escaping a fence, the first step would be considering wellness (Why is the dog escaping? Is he exercised enough? Offered enough mental stimulation? Is he fed a nutritionally complete diet? Is the dog healthy? Suffering from anxiety or stress?) Anything that can impede and prevent a dog from being in a learning state needs to be evaluated.

The second step would be antecedent arrangement, that is, managing the environment to prevent the behavior from occurring. Erecting a dog-proof fence, fixing gaps, making outdoors stimuli less tempting by adding enrichment in the yard, providing outlets for natural behaviors.

Then we have positive reinforcement (rewarding desired behaviors). Differential reinforcement that is, rewarding alternate behaviors. What would we like our dog to do in lieu of the undesirable behavior?

Then, there are several more potentially aversive methods to suppress unwanted behaviors/ reinforce escape behaviors and last in the list is positive punishment (using corrections to stop behaviors). 

Just wanted to point these out, I hope it didn't get too boring!

[JMFS]

Never boring and Always appreciated! 

1 hour ago, Adrienne said:

making outdoors stimuli less tempting by adding enrichment in the yard, providing outlets for natural behaviors.

This has me intrigued.  I'm guessing this is sort of like offering a dog a "guilt-free" dig zone such as a sandbox filled with toys they can find.  I just need to come up with some things she would enjoy more than chasing bugs on the ground, chewing that nasty (but likely intriguing) stump, going after lizards (so so many lizards . . .).  This will be a challenge.  However, it gives me something to consider for our next house!  The husband is going to Love this.  Especially when I start perusing Pinterest, haha!  "Dear, you know that extra culvert piping we'll have?"  "Could we maybe . . . )?"  "And this extra concrete block, do you suppose we could . . .?"  "Oh, I noticed scrap wood over there, might we . . . ?"  I'm imagining an agility couuuuurse! 

I'm getting ahead of myself, though.  First I need to come up with something more temporary for this house.  We're a ways off, yet, from building the dogs' dream yard.  For now we could perhaps do some nose work.  I'm a Wee hesitant in the back yard and would have to leash Gertie (or leave her inside) to avoid potential conflict.  Esther has a Spectacularly sensitive nose.  She may even be more nosy than Momo was, and she gives Abbi a run for her money.  Poor Gerts with her average nose.  Still better than mine, but she's amongst some real hound-level sniffers.

An odd thing about the collar is that she actually Wants to wear this one.  She avoids the other one that's the same style, but without the contraption.  Even after the shock she walks into this one and gets excited to see the remote in my hand.  I do believe she sees that as a precursor to treats.  You're right, though, it's tempting to smash that vibrate button for every little infraction!  It seems to have a feature where it stops working after 3 pushes of the button.  I discovered this when testing the intensities (while I was holding it, not while it was on Esther).  After the third push relatively close together it started flashing at me as though to say, "knock it off."  The manual doesn't reference this feature so it's just a guess.  If I'm right then that's a really cool safety built in. 

Overall I'm liking the idea of it for recall.  She seems to ignore it now for correction and I don't want to turn it up.  I think it wouldn't do much other than desensitize her to the sensation.  I put it on my neck at a higher setting and even without fur there's not much to the vibration intensity (I figure what's fair for her is fair for me).  Unless she's really interested in something she comes right to me after I buzz her, and of Course she gets rewarded handsomely.  She brought Gertie with her at a full run the last time we were out - that surprised me.  She's got to think vrrrbt = treat.  I'll keep a close eye on her behavior, though, and if she starts to perceive it with any dislike (pawing at it, turning her head away when I go to put it on, etc . . .) I'll cease its use.  I will also be training her with the silent whistle in the future.  It's tough right now because Gertie comes over expecting rewards.

Good point on the invisible fence.  I don't want her associating other dogs with negative consequences.  I've been training her at the gate while the neighbor's dogs have been inside to avoid that possibility, but eventually I'll have to do it when they're out because that's kind of the point of training at the gate.  To get her to remain calm and not try to get loose to see them.  When they're out I'm going to take the "look at that" approach and reward for calm behavior.  We have to be pretty much at the front door she's such a nut - our fence is about 75 feet away.  We can get to about 60 feet before she starts pulling on the leash and 50 is where she starts whining.  She's not this wild about the older dogs and I can walk our fence line with her when they're out, but those puppies are simply too much to bear and she Must see them.

[JMFS]

  

Esther is such a little poop sometimes, but she lets up when I say.  I Should have praised her so missed opportunity there.  She's learned a lot about wrestling in her 3 months with us!  That Chin Pin is a signature Gertrude move (where they pin each other with the jaw bone, no teeth).  Interesting thing about this play session is Esther was the one to end it.  They parted ways beautifully, I think.

Expert opinion question:  Esther is in Love with the flirt pole.  I do not play with them together with it because a) excitability and b) Gertie doesn't share and also very much enjoys the flirt pole.  I truly believe I could walk Esther down the street, without a leash, and only the flirt pole.  That's how I pulled her off the puppies and got her home when she escaped.

The question is:  would that flirt pole be a good tool to use outside the dog park when I'm ready to get her to stop going ape over other dogs?  I know it would be an excellent distraction, but I'm concerned it may put her in a height of excitability and thus lend to lowering her threshold when we walk closer.  She's coming along nicely with "drop."  I'm capturing it when she plays with her Kong - every time she drops it to dislodge the treats I say "drop!" and she's starting to piece it together.  This girl self-trained on the potty bell after watching Gertie do it twice, she's Smart and very open to capturing.  Oh the things we could do if only she could behave in public!

Here's my thought:  Walk around the perimeter with the flirt pole.  When she starts to stiffen up I drop the flirt pole (if she even stops looking at it to notice the other dogs, that is), to redirect her attention.  Move closer, pole, closer, pole, and so forth. 

Her prey drive and killer instinct are Momo level.  Gertie was playing with a cicada this morning and I called her off the poor thing. Other than the time a boy threw one down my bathing suit they've done nothing to wrong me, and I'm sure that was equally traumatic for the cicada, so I save them when I can.  I walk Esther to the middle of the yard and Gertie joins us.  I take off Esther's collar thinking they'll play.  No, this psycho goes Straight for the cicada, chomps it in half (no playing) and I have to get between her and it to get her away (it was still buzzing so I thought it could be saved, I had to put it out of its misery 😞).  This pitiful creature was just trying to dry its wings after freeing itself from its cocoon.  No telling how many hours it fought for freedom only to be ended by Esther the Pester. 

Oh!  They got into a fight a couple nights ago.  I was doing desensitization / conditioning training with Esther with YouTube dogs - we're still not up to real life interactions and that's my fault as we have so little time to train.  After about 5 minutes of Esther getting treats for being good Gertie comes over to see what's going on.  Ugh.  Mistake.  I was watching the video to see when a dog came on (Bondi Vet channel) so I missed what happened, but suddenly there was an eruption and yep, Esther had Gertie pinned.  Don't know when Gertie is going to learn to stop starting fights because she's Not a scrapper whereas Esther is.  I've said it before, but good grief what happened in her young life?!  9 months old and she's a brute.  My best guess is Gertie touched Esther while Esther was trying to contain herself as we were training.  I was able to verbally break it up, but I was ready to splash my half gallon of water onto them (the beds are joined by a waterproof mattress pad, bring it on!).

Lesson learned:  Esther can be trained for her reactivity Only when Gertie is contained or elsewhere.  I'm remembering Hrdrika (sp?), Remy, and Hannah, and their journey at this point!  We're not in quite the same situation, but parallel at the least, and the frustration and feelings of failure are probably similar.

[JMFS]

Would you go with a 15', 20', 30', or longer lead?  Looking on Chewy now and trying to decide between a tie out where I can have my hands free, or a lead where we can move around the yard.  When she's finally ready for the dog park perimeter I'll use her regular 6' bungee leash that I can buckle around my waist and the martingale collar.  The side of the park we'll have to work on is near a busy street and I don't want to risk her slipping out or yanking the leash out of my hand.  The other side would put us at risk of running into other dogs as they enter the park.  Can you tell I've put some thought into this?  😆😅

[Adrienne]

The question is:  would that flirt pole be a good tool to use outside the dog park when I'm ready to get her to stop going ape over other dogs?  I know it would be an excellent distraction, but I'm concerned it may put her in a height of excitability and thus lend to lowering her threshold when we walk closer.  She's coming along nicely with "drop."  I'm capturing it when she plays with her Kong - every time she drops it to dislodge the treats I say "drop!" and she's starting to piece it together.  This girl self-trained on the potty bell after watching Gertie do it twice, she's Smart and very open to capturing.  Oh the things we could do if only she could behave in public!

Here's my thought:  Walk around the perimeter with the flirt pole.  When she starts to stiffen up I drop the flirt pole (if she even stops looking at it to notice the other dogs, that is), to redirect her attention.  Move closer, pole, closer, pole, and so forth. 

I would say you can use the flirt pole, but if that's the absolute only thing that will distract her, but just as a brief starting point just to prevent her from getting into that "zone" where she's too distracted to listen, but I would aim to then switch to a calmer redirect. I would prefer starting with a response to a smacking sound or asking her to perform a behavior, even an easy one such as you asking her to "watch", looking into your eyes with your hand at eye level,  followed by tossing a handful of treats/kibble on the ground to "find them!" treasure hunt style. 

I think about it this way: if she can only redirect to flirt pole at the dog park, it could be  a sign of her being too over threshold, with the flirt pole becoming sort of something to vent her frustration rather than learning to be in a thinking state.  I would suggest mimicking what is done in group obedience class settings, in other words, working at the park asking for behaviors such as sits, downs, hand targets,  attention heeling etc. starting at a distance from which she is responsive and praising rewarding generously. 

I would also aim to do lots of impulse control/frustration tolerance training because I think she needs to lower her excitability and learn to be more in a thinking state rather than a super excited, reactive one. https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/impulse-control-frustration-tolerance/ 

Oh!  They got into a fight a couple nights ago.  I was doing desensitization / conditioning training with Esther with YouTube dogs - we're still not up to real life interactions and that's my fault as we have so little time to train.  After about 5 minutes of Esther getting treats for being good Gertie comes over to see what's going on.  Ugh.  Mistake.  I was watching the video to see when a dog came on (Bondi Vet channel) so I missed what happened, but suddenly there was an eruption and yep, Esther had Gertie pinned. 

Don't know when Gertie is going to learn to stop starting fights because she's Not a scrapper whereas Esther is.  I've said it before, but good grief what happened in her young life?!  9 months old and she's a brute.  My best guess is Gertie touched Esther while Esther was trying to contain herself as we were training.  I was able to verbally break it up, but I was ready to splash my half gallon of water onto them (the beds are joined by a waterproof mattress pad, bring it on!).

Lesson learned:  Esther can be trained for her reactivity Only when Gertie is contained or elsewhere.  I'm remembering Hrdrika (sp?), Remy, and Hannah, and their journey at this point!  We're not in quite the same situation, but parallel at the least, and the frustration and feelings of failure are probably similar.

Yes, I agree, that behavior modification exercises should be done only with one dog, especially if there are elements of over excitability-reactivity that may spill into aggression. Does Esther become possessive over treats when training by any chance? Other than her being concentrated, and redirecting on Gertie (sort of like the redirected aggression cases we see when two dogs see another dog pass by the fence and one is overly aroused and redirects against the other ) I wonder whether Esther just wanted Gertie away from the area/you or the treats or the whole combo. 

Sadly, according to a study, the dogs most involved in household fights are same-sex dogs with female dogs being overrepresented. Typically, the instigators of most fights were younger dogs and the second dog in the home. Risks factors that predisposed dogs to fighting included: a history of having had multiple owners, being adopted after 12 weeks of age (past the socialization period), being acquired from a shelter, pet store or being a singleton puppy.

Co-Morbid Issues included fear and aggression, with 40 percent of dogs having shown aggression towards unfamiliar dogs, 27percent aggression to human family members, 27 percent aggression towards strangers, and 6 percent aggression at the vet’s office. Thirty-five percent were fearful towards strangers, 31 percent were fearful in the veterinarian’s office, 23 percent were fearful towards unfamiliar dogs

 

The first episodes of fighting typically occur when one dog matures and starts becoming confident enough to use aggression to control access to resources. It is also seen when one dog starts getting older. The owner intervening to support a particular dog can also contribute to fights, creating instability and increased conflict.

 

Sherman,et al. in a study found that treatment involving systematic desensitization and counterconditioning and obedience training improved or resolved 59 percent of cases of interdog household aggression Prognosis was worse in cases where the instigating dog was younger, had bitten a person and the owner struggled in predicting the circumstances in which the fights did occur.

In the study, it was found that there was a clear instigator and recipient of aggression in 71 percent of cases. In 70 percent of these cases, the instigator was the second dog added to the home and was younger than the recipient of aggression.

The good news is that caught early, there may be better chances in keeping things under control, although there are various prognostic factors to consider. Even in Hrdrika's case (although advanced) it seems like she found a good behavior professional to work directly with her and last things I have heard was that things were going pretty well. I know you were considering getting help, but couldn't drive to the consultant's place, but I feel that it would be best if the professional could come to your home to directly observe their interactions and see how they behave in their "home base" rather than in a novel place and show you what methods to use to your advantage (on top of management of course) based on his/her observations./history taking/functional assessment. 

[JMFS]

Alright, so your summary is in line with what I was thinking.  Nutshell:  it could add to the overexcitement

The odd thing is Gertie has been the instigator every time.  Esther happily shares toys (no tension when Gertie comes near - opposite, she entices Gerts to play) and it's the same with treats.  It's a very strange thing to experience after Momo's situation!  No whale eye, no tensing, no movement of her head to block or make to snap / bite.  The only thing she does that drives me Bonkers is push Gertie out of the way for a better position (e.g., to get closer to me).  She gives no push back when redirected.  I usually ask for a sit, but lately it's been do overs.  E.g., she rushes past us down the stairs, Gertie and I go back into the office and I close the door.  Esther comes bounding up the stairs like, "hey!  Aren't we going?!"  We're down from 5 repeats to only 1/2 (she gets down a few stairs and a vocal correction brings her back).

This last time I think Esther was simply too excited / trying too hard to curb her impulse to bark and jump when the dog comes on the screen and Gertie coming up behind her all stealthy like Gertie does surprised Esther.  I didn't have treats in my hand, but she was aware they were there.

I couldn't agree with you more about the in-home training and I'll reach out to the two or three other trainers you and I looked at (I'll have to look them up again, I can't remember that far back, lol).  I know I can do this over time, but my gosh it would be much faster and easier with someone experienced And there will be fewer steps back. 

Thank you as  always!

[Adrienne]

The odd thing is Gertie has been the instigator every time.  Esther happily shares toys (no tension when Gertie comes near - opposite, she entices Gerts to play) and it's the same with treats.  It's a very strange thing to experience after Momo's situation!  No whale eye, no tensing, no movement of her head to block or make to snap / bite.  The only thing she does that drives me Bonkers is push Gertie out of the way for a better position (e.g., to get closer to me).  She gives no push back when redirected.  I usually ask for a sit, but lately it's been do overs.  E.g., she rushes past us down the stairs, Gertie and I go back into the office and I close the door.  Esther comes bounding up the stairs like, "hey!  Aren't we going?!"  We're down from 5 repeats to only 1/2 (she gets down a few stairs and a vocal correction brings her back).

 

In general, things start changing as pups mature and reach social maturity. Once reaching social maturity, they start to become the main instigators, often challenging the other dog (this is mostly  observed the most in female-female interactions), but of course, these are just generalizations. There are plenty of female dogs, even close in age, getting along ok other than the occasional ritualized aggression squabble. Often there are just bumps along the road as they reach social maturity, but as long as dog A tells Dog B that she would like priority access to something and dog B is fine with that, it may solve with just some noise and without major fights.

However, my main concern is how you have described Esther reacts towards Gertie, this can turn more problematic as she matures and if tackled early finding effective ways to manage and redirect and create positive associations could help versus intervening when there is an established history of conflicts. 

[Adrienne]

Would you go with a 15', 20', 30', or longer lead?  Looking on Chewy now and trying to decide between a tie out where I can have my hands free, or a lead where we can move around the yard.  When she's finally ready for the dog park perimeter I'll use her regular 6' bungee leash that I can buckle around my waist and the martingale collar.  The side of the park we'll have to work on is near a busy street and I don't want to risk her slipping out or yanking the leash out of my hand.  The other side would put us at risk of running into other dogs as they enter the park.  Can you tell I've put some thought into this? 

I would start with 6' leash for better control to start with. Then, as she gets better with her impulse control, you can work with gradual longer leashes.

[JMFS]

The more we chat about it, the more I'm feeling I definitely need that expert set of eyes.  Esther reacts, but only when Gertie starts something.  To me it's a reasonable response because if I was happily chatting away with someone and all of a sudden they slapped me across the face I'd react a lot like Esther does.  I think that experienced set of hands to see these interactions in person will be an important piece to heading these conflicts off before they even start.

In the meantime I'll continue to eliminate contentious situations.  An ounce of prevention!  So glad I have your advice because I'd feel totally lost otherwise.  You've taught me so very much.  💜

[Adrienne]

Interactions among household dogs can be quite complex. Sometimes, finding the true instigator is not as easy or straightforward as thought (not implying it's your case, just in general).

Usually, with young pups, the older dog is the one that sets the rules towards a boisterous pup who acts out. Although, it's also true that older dogs often allow young puppies to get away with things, granting them a "puppy license" the older dog still may use body language in a ritualistic way to teach the puppy social skills and some boundaries. 

When adolescence is around the corner and then in full swing,  the older dog may start to pick on the adolescent youngster. For example, the older dog may offer toys to youngsters as a dare to touch or take the object. Behavior specialists  often emphasize the importance of supporting the older dog's effort during this time. Then, in several cases, as the younger female dog further matures, things may start to change, and the younger dog may start to be the instigator, in such case, support of the younger dog may help (although this is something that needs to be carefully evaluated/assessed to not worsen a situation).

I agree with you that when Gertie starts something, it's not abnormal that Esther reacts, especially considering that she's now an adolescent, a time when they can be brats. I just find the intensity of reaction towards her that you have described in the past, starting when Esther was younger, concerning. However, it could be simply that I am imagining her reaction in a certain way, while if I were to observe it personally, it may give me a different picture. 

On top of management to prevent contentious situations, it also helps working on creating positive associations, engaging both dogs in bonding activities, and every now and then breaking up a play session temporarily if it gets too rough. The fur scroll Gertie exhibits at the end of play in the video, may be a way to remove something from her coat, but can also be a sign of something going on at an emotional level, such as a sign of relief that the play session is over.

Successfully breaking up a play session can also be a good starting point for working on breaking up one day a potential fight. In other words, it gives us an extra layer of protection, knowing that if we're able to interrupt an aroused play session, we may also be eventually able to work on interrupting potential conflict preventing things from escalating.

 

[JMFS]

Complex to be sure!  I feel Gertie picked it up from Momo and is transferring it to Esther, albeit at a Far lesser intensity.  I still remember the day she and Mo got into it and I was Shocked that Gertie was the instigator.  Mo was approaching her food toy, something he normally didn't do, and she had something to say about it.  I was both proud and horrified, lol.  Proud that she stuck up for herself, horrified that I might have to work on this, yet again. 

I contacted someone who's not on the PPG site, but they do say they use force free methods.  "Pain-free, treat-free, and clicker-free."  I'm not sure what else is left.  Telepathy?! 

[Adrienne]

Hmm.... treat-free and clicker free makes me think they must have something against these. I have known many trainers who are aware of the the popularity of force-free methods and like to advertise themselves as such, but then it turns out, they are actually simply balanced trainers using a variety of corrections 😞

 

[Adrienne]

 "I still remember the day she and Mo got into it and I was Shocked that Gertie was the instigator.  Mo was approaching her food toy, something he normally didn't do, and she had something to say about it."

The big question here would be whether Gertie was close to her food toy or whether she voluntarily relinquished it (which rarely happens unless a dog is sick or finicky) and then suddenly decided she wanted it back.

 In general, when a dog has access to a food toy and another dog goes to grab it, the dog doing the grabbing is considered the  "instigator" as he's ignoring social boundaries.  It's as if a dog who has a food toy, has an invisible space bubble around it that shouldn't be surpassed. This is an example of how complex finding the real "instigator" in certain interactions may be. Even then, interactions are rather fluid rather than static and the instigator dog may behave in such a way in certain contexts and not in others. 

For example, Einstein would often push Petra out of the way when going through the door. Going out first was important to him. Petra, on the other hand, was really determined in maintaining access to resources such as bones and new toys. 

[JMFS]

It drives me bonkers when Esther pushes past Gertie.  Argh!  Lookie here, you young upstart, Gertie earned the right to go first!  Meanwhile Gerts is over there like, "can I go now?" 

The treat was in Gertie's area in the office, where Mo rarely went, and they were both headed to that area.  Mo was doing a "new stuff, let's sniff" exploration, Gertie noticed he was close to her toy, rushed to get to it first then snapped and snarled at him when he got too close.  That was the first time she'd Every shown any guarding issues and that was about a year ago.  All I could think was, "she learned it from you, Mo, stop looking affronted."

That trainer hasn't responded so I'll keep looking.  I'm wary of their statements and I'm suspicious it's going to be Alpha training.  I found another of their trainers that talked on their page about the pack and how mother dogs treat their pups to keep them out of trouble, and make them feel safe.  That's setting off red flags.

[Adrienne]

Yes, those 'pack talks" and mimicking what mother dogs do with their pups send red flags about outdated methods. 

[JMFS]

Canine Communication.  Tonality, posture, eye contact.  They assured me there are no alpha rolls, no scruff grabs, no e-collars, shock collars, prong collars, choke collars, etc . . ..  I can't find much about it online other than how to sign up for a course to get certified, but I'll admit I only looked for about 5 minutes because I need to get to work so our subcontractors get paid.  We have a consult set up for Aug 24th and I asked what happens if I am not on board with their methods and he said we'll part ways as friends.

[JMFS]

Bark Busters is the company - my edit button is missing.  Over the phone it sounds good, but as I'm finding videos that show Zero training, only before and after, I'm leery.  I can't find a single video of anyone practicing the training, all advertisements don't show any of it, they have a choke collar on their store page . . .. I figure if anyone knows anything about them and can tell me to give it a shot or run for the hills, it's you.  :)  I looked up reviews and found some snarky comments, but for as many dogs as they say they've trained it's actually very few.

[Adrienne]

Bark Busters is a franchise. Before enrolling in my certification program I was interested in starting my career with them, but I was turned off by their methods. It's a franchise where people pay money to study their curriculum, and then they open their business. I am not sure if they have changed much since then, but from what you are mentioning, it seems they are still stuck with some outdated methods (like mimicking what dogs do to each other) and other methods I first learned about them using more than a decade ago. 

How about Dr. Terrie Marie Curtis? She's a board-certified veterinary behaviorist who does house calls in Florida. I am not sure how much she charges, but from her intake form, I can see she is very thorough and uses methods based on science. 

https://www.terrycurtisveterinarybehavior.com/services-offered

[JMFS]

I knew you'd be able to fill me in.  Some of the reviews I read did indicate what you mentioned.  I'm not sure what it means, but a couple said they were told to "bah like a sheep."  I'm not sure I'm up for that, lol.  Their price tag was hefty as they charge for each dog (base price for one, $200 for each additional).

I will contact Dr. Curtis, thank you.  If nothing else, she may know of someone local or have someone who's willing to travel.  The sticking point with the gal in Gainesville (which is likely where Dr. Curtis is given her UF email address) is that she doesn't do home visits and I feel like that's going to be an integral part to this process.

There have been no more arguments between the girls and I don't feel like I'm killing myself trying to manage the situation so that's a plus.  I did find a good OTC calming supplement that works on Esther.  I give it to her 30 minutes before we eat and she's settling down on the couch with us now.  When I had to do a 4-hour round trip drive Saturday the husband sure did cheat and gave it to all three dogs while I was gone.  I was so frustrated because it's a 1x per day med and he gave it 5 hours too early.  Needless to say he had a pretty easy day and is scratching his head over why I have issues getting work done.  <insert steam coming out of the ears emoji here>  That's the equivalent of plying children full of ice cream and cake to keep them quiet while dad "babysits."  Grrrrr. 

One thing this supplement is doing is calming her down enough to where she's learning the routine.  She now simply goes to the couch and hops up instead of balking.  She does seem to be projecting her inner Momo, though, and prefers the floor.  Fine by me!  More room for my yarn.  I do keep her tethered at these times and want to phase that out (I sit on the end of the leash so she can't get to Abbi or walk on Gertie).  I'm thinking maybe a mat on the floor with her treat will do the trick.  The only issue there is Gertie doesn't get a treat because I love my couch and don't want it slobbered / peanut buttered / apple sauced (natural, no xylitol or sugar, just mushed apples).  I'm not to the point of trusting them both on the floor with Kongs.  Gerts doesn't seem bothered by it, though she's Definitely watching Esther enjoying herself, and I don't want to foster a problem there.

Boy oh boy this dance sure was easier with Momo being outside and Gertie being inside!  Mo was happy to be with us, but he liked to sit away from us when he was inside.  You could see how uncomfortable he was on the couch - he never liked beds much, either.  Esther wants to be Everywhere, despite all the play they do and the brain exercises.  I'm mentally designing our next houses with all this in mind!

Esther is absolutely getting better and loves training, but she presents some unique challenges I haven't come across before now.  She's so mischievous, lol.  Gertie and Momo had their moments, but Esther seems to delight in testing the boundaries.  Especially with attempting to entice me to chase her.  The closing door trick and "bye!" still work, though, ha!  Gets her to come running 7 out of 9 times.

Edited August 16, 2021 by JMFS
Manners!