My 2 aussies are “over greeters” toward visitors

[PattyVaage]

Hi There, our 2 young Australian shepherds (aged 1.5 years and 2.5 years)are fairly well behaved in the basics…gone through obedience training class, but the are “over the top greeters” when company comes by!

My question is …How can I work with our dogs to remain calm and obedient to me when guests or family members come over?

The main problem is with the youngest that goes “ape” when visitors come by… she gets so excited (barking, greeting, sometimes piddling) she runs around, ignoring  any correction from me. She makes such a big scene that I have to kennel her. I thought she would settle down as she matures, but so far that is not happening.I don’t want to always have to kennel them at those times unless I have to.

[Adrienne Farricelli]

Hi there!

With excited greeters, practice, practice and more practice is what is needed. More than corrections, these dogs need to learn what we expect from them and we need to make the desired behaviors extra rewarding. 

Now, one may say, how can I teach my dogs to behave despite the distraction of guests, when they are over the top and super "over threshold"? Here is a read on threshold levels by the way, and what it means: https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/threshold-levels/

We basically help them through management, baby-steps, using super-duper tasty treats and organizing set-ups for training in a systematic way. Let me go over these. 

Management: practice makes perfect. The more dogs rehearse over-the-top, overly excited behaviors, the more these are likely to establish and risk becoming their default behaviors. So yes, if they act uncontrollably and over the top, it is best to keep them away (behind a baby gate, in another room, in a safe yard, crated with some tasty goodies, or in an x-pen), at least, until you can get them a little more under control and get the cognitive part of their brain in a semi-working state. This is usually just a temporary measure, and/or for those times when you don't have willing guests who take directions on what to do or you need to give them undivided attention. 

Baby steps: Dogs learn best when we present them with training offered in easy-peasy steps. These easy-peasy steps have a two-fold advantage: they help dogs better assimilate the training and help us as well as we are more likely to get results, which makes us more energized and motivated, versus getting discouraged and frustrated. Steps are offered incrementally, gradually raising criteria. If at any times, the dog struggles with a certain step, it's a sign we need to go a step back and make it easier or make some other adjustments. 

Super-duper treats: greeting guests can be a very exciting and overstimulating event for dogs, there may also be some stress mixed in. It may be difficult to grab the dog's attention and therefore we need to use super high-value treats that are capable of competing against the saliency of guests. 

Organizing set-ups: these require that we have some volunteer guests who can follow our instructions. Guests who give dogs ANY FORM of attention when they bark and jump all over them, are a big no-no because they will likely reinforce those behaviors. So you need guests who are cooperative and can ignore your dog when entering your home ( no "aww, what a cute dog as the dog jumps all over them!").  It is very helpful to start with only one dog, since dogs feed off each others' emotions and tend to compete over greeting guests. 

You may find it helpful leashing your dog initially and keeping distance from the guest and taking baby steps. Skipping the knocking/ door bell can also help if your dogs start getting overly excited by that. You can work on that separately, here is a guide of desensitizing to door bells and door knocks: https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/behavior-training/barking/doorbells-knocks-on-doors/

Training starts easy peasy, by having your volunteer enter the door as you toss several small pieces of tasty treats on the ground. Once the dog is about to finish the treats, the volunteer leaves. Rinse and repeat several times, until your dog seems calmer. 

After several trials, have the volunteer enter and try asking for a sit before tossing the treats. If your dog was able to sit, toss the treats and once again, have the volunteer leave once the dog is about to finish the treats. Rinse and repeat several times, until your dog seems calmer. 

Next, further raise criteria, see if you can ask your dog to lie down before tossing the treats. If your dog complies, toss the treats and have the volunteer leave once the dog is about to finish the treats. Rinse and repeat several times, until your dog seems calmer. 

Repeat the above with your dog off leash. If your primary door leads to unfenced yard, practice only with a door that leads to a fenced yard for safety (many dogs will escape if a door is opened just a bit and they see something that attracts them). 

Next, further raise criteria. Add a mat, place it nearby the door and as your volunteer is about to enter, ask your dog to go lie down on it. Give the treats there. Have the volunteer leave once the dog is about to finish the treats. Rinse and repeat several times, until your dog seems calmer. 

Next, ask for a long down/stay on the mat. As your volunteer enters, ask your dog to lie on the mat and this time offer a longer-lasting chew *(like a whole dog cookie). Have your dog stay there as you chit-chat and shake hands with the guest. As your dog is about to finish the chew, have your guest leave. 

Further raise criteria. As your volunteer enters, ask your dog to lie on the mat and this time offer a much longer-lasting chew like a stuffed Kong or safe long-lasting edible. Have your guest sit down on the couch for some time. As your dog is about to finish the chew, have your guest leave. 

Then, you would practice with both dogs together each lying on their own mats. *Avoid this exercise if your dogs are prone to resource guarding valuable foods in presence of people or each other. 

The goal is to be able to have the dogs engage in alternate behaviors. These alternate behaviors help dogs swap to a rational, cognitive state versus acting over the top. The alternate behaviors can be several (doesn't have to be lie on a mat, although this may work best as it has built-in duration) and you can pick which ones you prefer. Having the dogs  hand target the guest's hands when the guests are sitting works also well to replace obnoxious hyper behaviors. 

If your dogs also jump on you, it also helps to do several trials at home where you  see what behaviors evoke hyper behavior and gradually expose your dog to them as your dog sits watching, then you can work on entering the house, turning around and exiting when your dogs act hyper, and entering and praising when your dogs act calm and even sit. If your dogs can't resist jumping on you, they will find it even harder not to jump on guests, so make sure they learn with you first before working with guests. Here is a case study on working on jumping:

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/case-studies/02-maggie-assessing-jumping-behavior-desensitization/

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/case-studies/02-maggie-practice-greetings/

Hope this helps,

I am here is you struggle with nay parts or need to do some troubleshooting.

Best regards,

Adrienne 

 

[PattyVaage]

thankyou so much for this training ad ice Adrienne. I know that it will take some time, but will be worth it in the long run. I will  plan to practice practice practice!🙂

[Adrienne Farricelli]

Sounds like a plan, keep us updated on the progress!

Happy training!

Adrienne 

[FrederykBlot]

Hello everyone,

 

I jump on this topic to get a little advice on the matter also, as Loki starting to get a bit jumpy on guests, which is quite recent.
Before he was more likely to get to them and offer the belly but now with a bit of excitement, he starts to get a bit jumpy

 

My main question is how to train without involving the guests ?
I do not say they will never like to help, but when you're inviting guests over, it's not ideal to start the party with 
"hey can you help me do dog education ? he would try to jump on you but we will try to teach an alternate behavior like a sit or down"

 

thank you

[JMFS]

On 1/9/2022 at 10:06 AM, Adrienne Farricelli said:

Next, further raise criteria. Add a mat, place it nearby the door and as your volunteer is about to enter, ask your dog to go lie down on it. Give the treats there. Have the volunteer leave once the dog is about to finish the treats. Rinse and repeat several times, until your dog seems calmer. 

Next, ask for a long down/stay on the mat. As your volunteer enters, ask your dog to lie on the mat and this time offer a longer-lasting chew *(like a whole dog cookie). Have your dog stay there as you chit-chat and shake hands with the guest. As your dog is about to finish the chew, have your guest leave. 

This is what we're practicing with Gertie.  If you don't already have a mat I recommend getting a rubber-backed mat that's Just for the pups.  That keeps it from sliding around, which is helpful.  I bought a 2' x 3' mat at Walmart for $4 or so specifically for this training exercise.  Wouldn't you know, Esther caught on immediately after watching Gertie - she's so flipping smart!  She automatically goes to the mat and sits on it while I'm putting on my muck boots (wellies, rain boots, sloggers . . .) to go outside.

We had to break it down further for Gerts because she is a little slower on the uptake.  She's normally so well-behaved that we rarely ask things of her, and when we do she gives us a blank stare, lol.  When we get to a stalemate and she won't go to the mat, or she's only touching it instead of sitting and not really understanding how to win the treat, I say, "uh oh," and pick up the mat to reset the game.  When she successfully sits I say, "yes!" and toss a treat away from the mat, which is meant to reset the game so we can play it again.  As she starts to grasp the concept (we only just got the mat) I'll have her hold a sit for longer periods of time before introducing a volunteer.  We'll likely start with my husband asking for the sit and me entering.  I am the least exciting person around her because I'm home all the time so I should be the easiest criteria raise.

Tip:  with training two dogs I'm leaving one in a separate room with something to keep her occupied while I train with the other.  I can train Esther with Gertie in the room, but not the other way around.

[PattyVaage]

ahh! thanks for the GREAT tips! 😊 

[Adrienne Farricelli]

My main question is how to train without involving the guests ?
I do not say they will never like to help, but when you're inviting guests over, it's not ideal to start the party with 
"hey can you help me do dog education ? he would try to jump on you but we will try to teach an alternate behavior like a sit or down"

You can practice yourself with Loki initially and then progress to family members and friends who are willing to help.

The problem with guests who are not collaborative is that they can be the very cause for major setbacks. I can't say how frustrating it is when you have progressed a whole lot and start to finally see results, and guests will start petting your dog right when he is jumping and you are then back to square one because behaviors that are reinforced intermittently (sometimes yes, sometimes no) are more difficult to extinguish. 

Dogs seem to fall into a pattern where they think that if guests aren't paying attention, they'll need to jump on them to get some or they may just keep thinking that's the default way to interact. 

It doesn't hurt to have the dog on leash and tell your guests as they enter:"I am trying to train Loki not to jump on people, so I have him on leash at a distance from you. He shouldn't be able to jump but if he does, would you mind please not giving him any attention despite how cute he is? Actually, if you could turn your back away from him, that would be wonderful! Thank you!"   After that, you can then praise Loki and put him in a different room or in an x-pen or behind a baby gate and offer something tasty to enjoy to keep him occupied while you pay attention to your guests. 

If you have guests that you do not wish to ask them for a little collaboration, it is best to not allow any interaction rather than allowing him to to rehearse the problem behavior over and over. Using a baby gate can work well as it puts a barrier in between dog and person so that the dog cannot directly jump on the person.

There are even organized events organized by dog trainers for this purpose. Trainers have owners bring their jumpy dogs to classes where the owners take turns greeting and meeting each others' dogs and the dogs are taught to ignore or engage in an alternate behavior. All the owners adhere to the basic rule of not giving any form of attention should the dog still manage to jump. This structured setup can be very beneficial.

A prospective service dog I had in training was adorable and many people on the street were eager to meet her. This didn't help at all as most people couldn't resist. They either made excited tones that prompted her to get excited and try to jump, or worse, they rushed to pet her while jumping. I had to use one of those "service dog in training, do not pet" vests as a warning.

Only after another trainer and I organized several sessions of meeting several other dog owners with similar problems we were able to make some good progress. Indeed, training dogs not to jump is a little unique in it's own way because it's part people training, part dog training, so to say.

[FrederykBlot]

The problem with guests who are not collaborative is that they can be the very cause for major setbacks. I can't say how frustrating it is when you have progressed a whole lot and start to finally see results, and guests will start petting your dog right when he is jumping and you are then back to square one because behaviors that are reinforced intermittently (sometimes yes, sometimes no) are more difficult to extinguish. 

 

I hear you so well !!! 🙂🙂
They can be not collaborative, but not on purpose. Reminds me for of my father-in-law, in summer we were having a little apero in the garden, and while we were training Loki not to come begging, he went onto him with his little cute and fluffly face, offered a sit with nice eyes, and my in-law couldn't resist and gave him a little sausage !!!!
thanks for the setback !!!! 

 

I guess "guest education" is also a thing : 
- Many of them tried to pet him from above, and right on the head, and of course Loki went on "full defense mode" and tried to get the hand. Even if we're not worry about harming the guest as we did bite inhibition while little, it still triggered a little excitement and play mode that encouraged the jumping
- when he's getting excited, they still pushing with the hand, which becomes a nice target

[Adrienne Farricelli]

I hear you so well !!! 🙂🙂
They can be not collaborative, but not on purpose. Reminds me for of my father-in-law, in summer we were having a little apero in the garden, and while we were training Loki not to come begging, he went onto him with his little cute and fluffly face, offered a sit with nice eyes, and my in-law couldn't resist and gave him a little sausage !!!!
thanks for the setback !!!! 

Ha-ha! Brings back memories of when hubby and I had to leave and we asked my parents to watch our Rottweilers for a few days. My parents were instructed to not give them ANY food at the table, even if they made the cutest faces. I had to remind my dad several times because I know he found that difficult. With our cats, he was always feeding them some cold cuts at the table, the urge was stronger than him!

So when we came back, I asked if our dogs were good and they said they were and all went very smoothly. When we sat at the table though, both Petra and Kaiser sat nearby instead of on their usual mats and they were visible anticipating something and DROOLING!

With dogs, the truth always comes out.... Turns out, my dad finally admitted to feeding "a little" left over bread every now and then!

I guess "guest education" is also a thing : 
- Many of them tried to pet him from above, and right on the head, and of course Loki went on "full defense mode" and tried to get the hand. Even if we're not worry about harming the guest as we did bite inhibition while little, it still triggered a little excitement and play mode that encouraged the jumping
- when he's getting excited, they still pushing with the hand, which becomes a nice target

Sometimes, when we have guests who can't resist petting or who don't know how to properly pet a dog, we need to intervene to help our dogs out. 

I have been working with a very nippy 8-month old English setter. My history-taking has revealed that owners have been giving physical corrections (grabbing his mouth, pushing him away, which has made things much worse) and to further compound things, the male owner has been inappropriately "playing" with the dog using his hands. Thank goodness he has decent bite inhibition.

So we had a worker come install things, and I kept him on leash. The worker, loving dogs, came close to say hi. I told him I am trying to train him to not jump and nip and that's why he is on leash. He let him sniff his hands and pet him on the shoulder/chest area as I fed him treats he loved best so to keep his mouth busy and not nipping. I didn't have him sit as he wasn't ready for that level of focus, but I was at least happy he stay composed, without jumping and nipping so I was glad with that session and ended it quickly by tossing a treat away from the worker before he had the chance to think about nipping or jumping .

Next time, the worker came, things went differently. The worker ignored him as he entered carrying heavy stuff and started to straight work on things, and the dog, feeling ignored I guess, started barking at him. The worker said "Oh, I forgot to say "hi!" so he came closer, but since he was barking and appeared willing to jump, we did an about turn as I said "wait a moment, let me get some composure," and when he stopped barking, I let him approach. I fed him again treats as he pet him, but this time he was petting him too close to his mouth so this triggered his mouthing behavior so I said withdrew the treat I was about to give him while saying "eh eh" and made an about turn. 

The worker want back to working, but I wanted to really end the day with a good session, so when he was about to leave I just had him on leash nearby him as we shook hands and chit-chat a bit, and the fact the dog was just standing there not nipping or jumping was good enough for me to feel satisfied and call it a day. 

Now, in a previous post on another thread you said:

"For example, to brush Loki, we had trouble to make him stay in place, while using normal treats, because some places were unpleasant to him as he has knots. When we switch to cooked hot dogs, no problem anymore, he would stay, and I could even pull on the hairs quite strong without him bulging."

This is great! I think you can treat the patting of people sort of like you have been doing with brushing. Try feeding him the hot dogs initially simultaneously as he "endures" very brief petting sessions, then progress to delaying giving the hot dogs until the very brief petting session is over.

Baby steps. Start with family members, then practice with people under controlled settings, then expand with the occasional strangers who want to pat. Of course, for liability purposes, only progress to people patting when you know he has progressed enough to no longer nip. Enlist the help of a professional if there are any concerns.

Feed the hot dogs low so he doesn't feel like jumping. With the mouth busy, he shouldn't be able to nip, and on the bonus side, you will be creating positive associations with people with food he loves to make up for the lack of education of humans in proper petting protocols. Win, win! After some time, start inserting a sit prior to petting. Keep the exercises short and sweet so to up chances for success.

Below is a summary video of similar work I did with the English setter, the owners were thrilled to be able to finally pet him!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsiNfp2cLzI

Happy training!

Disclaimer: behavior modification comes with risks. If your puppy or dog shows signs of potential aggression (lunging, barking, growling, snapping, biting) for safety, please consult with a dog behavior professional who uses force-free behavior modification techniques (no shock, prongs, or physical corrections) for direct in-person guidance. Articles, videos and general info found in the forums or course (or any online source) are not meant to replace in-person training/instruction. By using this course and forum, you are waiving any liability claims or other type of claims related to any dogs' behavior against you or others.