Mounting other dogs

[JackieFreeman]

hello I am struggling with my 2 labs age 4@5 they have been neutered but at times they hump other dogs male or female they don’t mind apart from keeping them on a lead I’m at my wits end would like some advice please Jackie 

[Adrienne Farricelli]

Hi Jackie, 

Humping even after being neutered isn't unusual, however, we want to tackle this considering that many dogs react in a bad way when around other dogs wanting to hump. I see you asked help on this same issue some some time back. How is their obedience training going? Recall, leave its, response to smacking sound? Have you worked on recognizing pre-humping behaviors and intervening? How often do they hump? Is it most of the time? Or is it occasional? Are they chasing dogs around trying to hump rather than engaging in play?

It would be important working on each dog separately.

I will re-post my thoughts in case you missed my older response. If you missed it, please update on how things went. 

"In general, I don't recommend giving off lead privileges to dogs until they have a track record of being under perfect voice control and not getting into any type of trouble. Here's the thing, humping is a behavior that some dogs may tolerate, but it's one big provoking factor for dogs fights. According to a study, excess mounting led to aggression 85 percent of the time. It may be just a matter of time that your dogs may encounter a dog who will not tolerate this behavior and may respond aggressively getting into a brutal fight. 

Here's the thing: dogs are very routine-oriented beings and when they rehearse behaviors over and over, they get stuck into their habits and practice makes perfect.  When dogs therefore get to rehearse problematic behaviors over and over, it can become quite habit-forming and eventually it may become their default way for them to want to interact with other dogs. 

While we know that humping in dogs may be just a form of play or a way to  release stress in situations that may be a tad bit overwhelming, it starts getting problematic when the humping becomes a pushy behavior and a dog becomes fixated on interacting with other dogs this way, especially when the other dog on the receiving end is objecting and trying to make the other dog stop.

In general, with humping behaviors directed towards other dogs,  the earlier the behavior is tackled, the better the outcome. A dog who has rehearsed the humping  behavior for years is going to be more difficult to tackle compared to a dog who has just started. On top of this, a dog who will not redirect from humping (like upon being called) may be too far gone to really listen and redirect so could end up being attacked when the dog on the receiving end has had enough and decides to take the matter in his own "paws" so to say.

Consider that the behavior can be self-rewarding so avoid allowing your dog to rehearse this behavior over and over as it can become quite habit-forming. In such a case, therefore, I feel it would be important to prevent the behavior from happening. This can be done through management (no more off leash encounters for now). This doesn't mean your dogs should no longer socialize with other dogs, it just means that you can provide socialization in more structured settings that prevent over arousal and self-reinforcement.

For instance, try less overstimulating exposures such as organized walks with other dogs all on leash,  hikes or small play groups with dogs who help the humper self regulate or dogs your dogs have never tried to hump. A good trainer may sometimes have some good  teacher dogs who will not allow humping, but who do so without using real aggression other than the more subtle, ritualized forms. He or she may also work with your dogs, praising and rewarding in a timely fashion when they engage in any no-humping behaviors (this method is known as differential reinforcement of other behaviors). 

 We can certainly train these dogs to be more under fluent voice control, but this requires some time in training along with very careful monitoring. One would need to recognize pre-humping behavior in a flash second (like that glaze in the eyes) and redirect at a moment's notice with super fast speed.

As tempting as it can be to simply pull the dogs off, every time they hump other dogs, I have found that this method risks backfiring. By pulling the dogs off without dealing with the underlying issue, the dogs risk getting more aroused and frustrated

A helpful training cue may be "leave it," but again, it's important to give this cue at the earliest signs your dog is about to hump. If you give it too late, your dog may not be able to listen. This may be difficult to accomplish though if you have both dogs off leash at the same time. Here is how to train leave it:

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/brain-training/obedience-101/take-leave-it/

Some dogs though seem to respond better to a smacking sound rather than voice, so it may be worthy trying to train a super reliable response to that as well. Here is the guide for that:

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/the-airplane-game/the-smacking-sound/

Some dogs may respond to timeouts, especially when the behavior has a brief history (recently started). Many doggy day cares use this method. Dogs wear a short tab (very short leash attached to collar) and every time the dog is about to hump, he is taken to a quiet and boring timeout zone.

Some dogs owners do this for a few times (like three strikes and you're out), and if the behavior persists, the fun is all over and the dog is put on leash and leaves the area. However, this method has also its negatives, like I wouldn't used it with dogs who have done this for some time, I feel this can create frustration and even aggressive responses in some cases.

It can also make dogs learn to play hard to catch over time.

So I prefer early redirection with the dog automatically removing himself from the situation because a leave it or smacking sound means something more rewarding than humping is about to happen. "

 

 

[FrederykBlot]

Hello,

we also have this, but we have the chance to be in a neighborhood with many dogs, and we let the dog handle it themselves

Loki would have tried on some dogs, and got thought a little lesson like "no you dont do that young pup", specially with older ones

If the owner don't like it, i would put him back on leash and end the play session

the big fight are usually avoided because most of the dogs that are dominant / aggressive are not free from leash

 

but I don't know if it can apply in your environment

[FrederykBlot]

Hello,

 

I withdraw from my previous message, and I apologize for giving what seems no to be a not so good advice.

But today, we had a big walk with our dog. He met another one at some point, and they both played very gently. Other was 2 yo Boceron, and when ours tried being all "mounty and humpy" he got put down or bark at, but more in a gentle learning way
Came another one, an Aussie, and all 3 played together very well, running like crazies, and when ours tried the humping on the Aussie, the Aussie fled, he would chase him and they spent a good time playing like that.
Then came a third one, and when he tried the humping with this one, he reacted quite strongly... and for the first time ever, ours defended himself quite seriously, growling, showing teeths, and they started what seemed like a real fight, first time ever for our pup

I guess with age, he gained confidence, and while he would have backed off before, he seems now trying "to stand up for himself", whereas he was the one trying to get above at first.

The owner was sorry because he attacked ours quite franckly, but we were also very sorry as it's the mounting behavior of ours that triggered that 

 

So, again, I'm very sorry for having underestimated this as an issue and provided a not so good advice (it was an honest mistake made from our experience that was working until now), and I think we're gonna also follow this thread and start applying stuff for us also

 

 

[Adrienne Farricelli]

On 3/27/2022 at 8:57 AM, FrederykBlot said:

Hello,

 

I withdraw from my previous message, and I apologize for giving what seems no to be a not so good advice.

But today, we had a big walk with our dog. He met another one at some point, and they both played very gently. Other was 2 yo Boceron, and when ours tried being all "mounty and humpy" he got put down or bark at, but more in a gentle learning way
Came another one, an Aussie, and all 3 played together very well, running like crazies, and when ours tried the humping on the Aussie, the Aussie fled, he would chase him and they spent a good time playing like that.
Then came a third one, and when he tried the humping with this one, he reacted quite strongly... and for the first time ever, ours defended himself quite seriously, growling, showing teeths, and they started what seemed like a real fight, first time ever for our pup

I guess with age, he gained confidence, and while he would have backed off before, he seems now trying "to stand up for himself", whereas he was the one trying to get above at first.

The owner was sorry because he attacked ours quite franckly, but we were also very sorry as it's the mounting behavior of ours that triggered that 

 

So, again, I'm very sorry for having underestimated this as an issue and provided a not so good advice (it was an honest mistake made from our experience that was working until now), and I think we're gonna also follow this thread and start applying stuff for us also

 

 

Oh, no I hope Loki and the Beauceron are OK! Sounds like more noise than any actual physical contact, glad that it stopped before escalating any further. 

There are actual even dog trainers suggesting that dogs "work things out" with humping issues. Ideally, this can work out when there are great teacher dogs out there and dogs are still young and "malleable" so to say. This is easier to do this with one-on-one play therefore using dogs who can correct the behavior but avoiding an escalation. Of course things get more complicated, if the dog who humps gets defensive when other dogs object to being humped. 

Eventually, trial after trial, the dog learns that nobody will play with him if he's often trying to hump. This is done in a very controlled setting though under the guidance of a trainer/behavior professional who provides the teacher dogs (or has access to dogs known for being skilled at that) and can work on differential reinforcement marking desired non-humping behaviors and rewarding them in timely fashion. 

With young dogs, the humping is often linked to overexcitement or over stimulation, sometimes lack of quality sleep which is often seen in daycares that allow too little or no downtime. The humping can become a displacement behavior as a way to relieve stress. Of course, the more it's rehearsed, the more likely the behavior puts roots and establishes becoming more and more habit-forming, sometimes to the point of becoming the dog's default way of interacting with dogs. 

With intact dogs, it's not a bad idea to take a break from daycare/dog parks until the dog is neutered if the behavior is hormonally-driven.