Puppy Tantrum

[CAITLIN FITZGERALD]

On 4/24/2022 at 3:39 PM, Adrienne Farricelli said:

So we had four days where she was really, really good - like I was wondering whose dog she was and even starting to hope that there was light at the end of the tunnel. But then on Tuesday and Wednesday, we had tons of extinction bursts and she was wired almost constantly. Today I realized (yes, it took a while haha) that we have to be managing her energy better. She doesn't know when to take a nap or when she's getting cranky - we have to force her to slow down and take a nap, which means we need to be more observant of her at all times. Because when she is wired/hormones raging, she can't stop pacing and crying and attention-seeking.

 

Those four good days she slept a TON and when she was awake, she was very calm and good. The last two days she has not slept her usual 15 hours and she has been a monster. This also means that when we walk her, we have to keep them very short. Even though she is about 4 months now, she can only handle walks around 10 minutes and not too intense or she comes home and won't relax for 2-4 hours. Yesterday, after her evening walk, she couldn't settle down for 6 hours until we gave her the calming aid chew! We only give her those before bed because I don't want her to become dependent on them and unable to fall asleep on her own. (They have melatonin in them and I know that happens with humans). is that a silly concern?  

 

I'm not sure how much is related to her teeth either but I got some gum numbing stuff for puppies and tried it three times but it didn't seem to change anything. When she is wired, she won't play with any of her toys for more than a minute. She's restless, demands attention, destructive, and she has started nipping at us even though we've been trying to work with her on that stuff. Frozen toys, frozen rags, kongs - none of those things are very interesting to her for long. The only thing that works are bully sticks but I'm afraid if we give her too many they will lower in value. So, I think the only thing we can do is try and prevent her from getting to that state with shorter walks and more "relax" time where she might be able to fall asleep. Usually after both walks, I go into the kitchen and do stuff. Like in the mornings, I make breakfast which takes about 30 minutes. But by then, she is wired. This morning I was quicker and able to sit down at my desk in about 15 minutes (after a shorter walk too) and she took a nice long nap. This afternoon, instead of going to make dinner and walk around the house doing stuff, I sat down to type this out and she is sleeping now. Am I onto something here and is it normal for her age to have so little stamina? 

 

It could be she was leaving her pee to confirm her "puppy license to misbehave." Older dogs smell the puppy pee and perceive it as a sign of "innocence" and that whatever the pups do, it is just because they are socially-illiterate juveniles. The older dogs therefore should technically provide them with "license to misbehave" forgiving them more easily, although not all of them grant this. Older dogs may struggle dealing with young pups and they may have joint issues/ mobility issues and their patience tends to run much shorter and they get easily overwhelmed by all that puppy energy.

 

The odor of "dog" seemed to be a trigger in both cases, so she's likely trying to communicate something if she doesn't normally pee on her own blankets at home. 

 

On Tuesday, I did lose my temper with her. I had been alone with her for 2 hours during a long extinction burst and she had completely broken my spirit. So we were getting ready for sleep and she was back to chewing on her bed, something she had gotten much better about. I snapped and yelled "stop chewing on your bed!" and pulled the bed away from her. She looked me in the eye and then stood and peed on the mat we keep under her bed. We laughed about it later but in the moment, I was super mad (but managed to contain myself and not react).

 

The cats like to sleep on her bed a lot so it's possible it was because of them but I suspect it was more related to my yelling. She didn't look frightened at all though and she has never peed before after I snap at her. She tried to jump on us to play, and we both just quietly cleaned it up. 

 

Was she trying to remind me that she is just a puppy? 

 

As for the cat stuff, no updates. Just continuing with supervised time where she does training while they eat treats on the other side of the gate. She does keep wanting to go to them but I've been throwing the treats to the side so she is forced to walk away from the door and that is definitely working as long as she is not wired. 

 

We have noticed that the unwanted barking in the backyard is increasing but she is good at coming to me when I call her. If she is barking at the neighbor dogs and I come outside and call her, is that reinforcing her though? I loved the analogy with the vending machine and slot machines - it helps a lot - but I'm not sure if I'm always doing it in those sort of situations. I try to wait until there is a lull in the barking before I open the door and go out but it's not always possible. However, she has been going to the side of the yard to do it so I don't know that it matters much. (She can hear me come out though - it's not like it's super far away). 

 

[Adrienne Farricelli]

So we had four days where she was really, really good - like I was wondering whose dog she was and even starting to hope that there was light at the end of the tunnel. But then on Tuesday and Wednesday, we had tons of extinction bursts and she was wired almost constantly. Today I realized (yes, it took a while haha) that we have to be managing her energy better. She doesn't know when to take a nap or when she's getting cranky - we have to force her to slow down and take a nap, which means we need to be more observant of her at all times. Because when she is wired/hormones raging, she can't stop pacing and crying and attention-seeking.

 

The fact that she was so well behaved those 4 days are a sign that she's capable of acting calmer, you may see more and more of these days if you are able to find that right balance between exercise, mental stimulation and rest. This is a balancing act that we get better at, as we get to know out pups more and monitor how our pups behave on days they get more rest versus more engagement. 

 

It's often underestimated how much rest/sleep these pups need. They do most of their growing during sleep and not sleeping enough leads to cranky behaviors just as in toddlers!

 

Remember that you have a mix of two high-energy working breeds. These dogs were bred to work in farms for a good part of the day so they have that mindset of always be on the go and never stopping. On top of this, young puppies don't have the ability to self-soothe and settle. This is a skill that takes time to master. Some pups can be very reluctant to put themselves to bed unless we help them. 

 

You can literally watch some pups acting exhausted, with their eyes almost closing, but then anything moving or any sound can have them bounce back into action, until another wave of sleeping catches them, and they then finally fall asleep. It helps to provide them with a very calm environment. Likely the fact she fell asleep when you sat at your desk versus walking in the kitchen was because the activity was less arousing to her nervous system. 

 

Those four good days she slept a TON and when she was awake, she was very calm and good.

 

Puppies also go through growth spurts where they'll sleep more so that could also have been what you have seen. 

 

The last two days she has not slept her usual 15 hours and she has been a monster. This also means that when we walk her, we have to keep them very short. Even though she is about 4 months now, she can only handle walks around 10 minutes and not too intense or she comes home and won't relax for 2-4 hours. Yesterday, after her evening walk, she couldn't settle down for 6 hours until we gave her the calming aid chew! We only give her those before bed because I don't want her to become dependent on them and unable to fall asleep on her own. (They have melatonin in them and I know that happens with humans). is that a silly concern?  

 

I can't really answer about the supplements, but no it's not a silly question. I recommend talking with a vet before starting any supplements and asking them any questions or concerns. Every pet may react differently and may have different needs. Some vets may not know much about supplements, while others are more informed. 

 

I'm not sure how much is related to her teeth either but I got some gum numbing stuff for puppies and tried it three times but it didn't seem to change anything. When she is wired, she won't play with any of her toys for more than a minute. She's restless, demands attention, destructive, and she has started nipping at us even though we've been trying to work with her on that stuff. Frozen toys, frozen rags, kongs - none of those things are very interesting to her for long. The only thing that works are bully sticks but I'm afraid if we give her too many they will lower in value.

 

An increase in nipping is often seen in teething puppies around this age. The types of toys offered to help teething puppies can help up to a certain point, but they can be rather boring and pups may lose interest with their short attention spans. Most pups are more drawn to interactive toys that they can chase around or work on getting stuff out. Are you stuffing the Kong? If so, make sure it's not too difficult to unstuff, but not that easy that it lasts only a couple of minutes. You can use her kibble to stuff it mixed with a little water and then frozen. Make sure to rotate toys to keep the interest alive. 

 

So, I think the only thing we can do is try and prevent her from getting to that state with shorter walks and more "relax" time where she might be able to fall asleep. Usually after both walks, I go into the kitchen and do stuff. Like in the mornings, I make breakfast which takes about 30 minutes. But by then, she is wired. This morning I was quicker and able to sit down at my desk in about 15 minutes (after a shorter walk too) and she took a nice long nap. This afternoon, instead of going to make dinner and walk around the house doing stuff, I sat down to type this out and she is sleeping now. Am I onto something here and is it normal for her age to have so little stamina? 

 

Puppies of large breeds can also go through growing pains. Basically, as pups have growth spurts at the end of their long bones they can develop shooting pains, possibly along with intermittent lameness during these bouts. Growing pains in puppies typically take place between the ages of 5 and 18 months, although it can be seen as early as the puppy being 2 months and may persist until the puppy is 2 years of age. While limping in one of the most noticeable signs, I wonder if they can still go through the pain without limping. I recall getting growing pains as a child and it really hurt, but I never limped. 

 

So this can be a factor, but definitely if you see a lack of stamina, especially compared to before, mention it to your vet to make sure there's no underlying medical cause.  However, yes, pups need lots of sleep, and they sleep more during growth spurts so something to consider. 

 

On Tuesday, I did lose my temper with her. I had been alone with her for 2 hours during a long extinction burst and she had completely broken my spirit. So we were getting ready for sleep and she was back to chewing on her bed, something she had gotten much better about. I snapped and yelled "stop chewing on your bed!" and pulled the bed away from her. She looked me in the eye and then stood and peed on the mat we keep under her bed. We laughed about it later but in the moment, I was super mad (but managed to contain myself and not react).

 

The cats like to sleep on her bed a lot so it's possible it was because of them but I suspect it was more related to my yelling. She didn't look frightened at all though and she has never peed before after I snap at her. She tried to jump on us to play, and we both just quietly cleaned it up. 

 

Was she trying to remind me that she is just a puppy? 

 

Since this peeing occurred in the context of yelling, this sounds like submissive urination, it's more along the lines of an appeasement gesture, e.g. puppy saying "please, calm down, I didn't mean to":

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/submissive-urination/

 

As for the cat stuff, no updates. Just continuing with supervised time where she does training while they eat treats on the other side of the gate. She does keep wanting to go to them but I've been throwing the treats to the side so she is forced to walk away from the door and that is definitely working as long as she is not wired. 

 

Sounds like a plan!

 

We have noticed that the unwanted barking in the backyard is increasing but she is good at coming to me when I call her. If she is barking at the neighbor dogs and I come outside and call her, is that reinforcing her though? I loved the analogy with the vending machine and slot machines - it helps a lot - but I'm not sure if I'm always doing it in those sort of situations. I try to wait until there is a lull in the barking before I open the door and go out but it's not always possible. However, she has been going to the side of the yard to do it so I don't know that it matters much. (She can hear me come out though - it's not like it's super far away). 

 

Ideally, in these cases, to prevent behavior chains (e.g. when I bark at the dogs, my owner comes out- and I get attention) we would prevent the barking from happening in the first place, calling her *before* she's actively barking at them. 

 

Barking at other dogs in the yard, can easily get out of hand. It can become self-reinforcing because it fills a void when a pup feels bored and if the dogs leave when she barks, she'll come to think her barking sent them away and soon a new habit establishes. Not to mention, if it evolves into barking at many triggers/fence fighting, it can increase arousal levels causing her to become very riled up. 

The more dogs get aroused and (frustrated) and vent their frustration by barking, the more this behavior puts roots and becomes established. These frequent rehearsals make the behavior habitual and more difficult to overcome over time.

Ideally, we want to supervise our dogs when outside and call them back as soon as we recognize signs that they're about to react to outside triggers. Do this before your pup starts reacting when she's still under threshold and reward generously. 

 

It is great she has been able to respond to you despite this level of distraction though! Not many dogs can be easily called off when they're focused on something and intently barking. Keep up the great work in your recalls!

[CAITLIN FITZGERALD]

On 4/29/2022 at 1:58 PM, Adrienne Farricelli said:

The fact that she was so well behaved those 4 days are a sign that she's capable of acting calmer, you may see more and more of these days if you are able to find that right balance between exercise, mental stimulation and rest. This is a balancing act that we get better at, as we get to know out pups more and monitor how our pups behave on days they get more rest versus more engagement. 

 

It's often underestimated how much rest/sleep these pups need. They do most of their growing during sleep and not sleeping enough leads to cranky behaviors just as in toddlers!

 

Remember that you have a mix of two high-energy working breeds. These dogs were bred to work in farms for a good part of the day so they have that mindset of always be on the go and never stopping. On top of this, young puppies don't have the ability to self-soothe and settle. This is a skill that takes time to master. Some pups can be very reluctant to put themselves to bed unless we help them. 

 

You can literally watch some pups acting exhausted, with their eyes almost closing, but then anything moving or any sound can have them bounce back into action, until another wave of sleeping catches them, and they then finally fall asleep. It helps to provide them with a very calm environment. Likely the fact she fell asleep when you sat at your desk versus walking in the kitchen was because the activity was less arousing to her nervous system. 

 

I've been hearing you about this but it is finally REALLY "clicking" for me! I am finally seeing how sensitive she is to her environment and what a low threshold she has. 

 

Puppies also go through growth spurts where they'll sleep more so that could also have been what you have seen. 

 

That makes so much sense and she has had a huge growth spurt so I think you're right there. 

 

An increase in nipping is often seen in teething puppies around this age. The types of toys offered to help teething puppies can help up to a certain point, but they can be rather boring and pups may lose interest with their short attention spans. Most pups are more drawn to interactive toys that they can chase around or work on getting stuff out. Are you stuffing the Kong? If so, make sure it's not too difficult to unstuff, but not that easy that it lasts only a couple of minutes. You can use her kibble to stuff it mixed with a little water and then frozen. Make sure to rotate toys to keep the interest alive. 

 

Yes, she loves the kong, and I got a kong wobbler like you recommended which took her a couple of weeks to learn but now she uses it all the time. I got her a licking mat also and am going to try the brain games with the muffin tin this week. If she doesn't understand it right away, I noticed she gets frustrated and won't use it. I also got a flirt pole which she loves. We also have to spend more time on drop it. Whenever sees me get a treat out, she drops anything so I haven't been able to trade her anything. I've been saying drop when she does let go of things but I don't think she's getting what it means yet. 

 

So this can be a factor, but definitely if you see a lack of stamina, especially compared to before, mention it to your vet to make sure there's no underlying medical cause.  However, yes, pups need lots of sleep, and they sleep more during growth spurts so something to consider. 

 

Well the stamina is not physical, it's with the mental stimulation. She gets wired so fast and we lose that window for her to nap easily very quickly. Today after her puppy class, it took her 20 minutes to wind down and usually she comes home and collapses. Jazz up/settle down is also not working anymore. She does it perfectly but she is not getting as "jazzed up" anymore and then when we stop playing she keeps pacing around and won't sleep. 

 

Since this peeing occurred in the context of yelling, this sounds like submissive urination, it's more along the lines of an appeasement gesture, e.g. puppy saying "please, calm down, I didn't mean to":

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/submissive-urination/

 

She did it again the next night. I didn't yell at her but I said to get off the bed and I was sort of like "ugh, off" in an annoyed/tired voice (she realized she could jump on it the other day) and so she did but then right after, she peed on the floor. I am working even harder on watching my own energy around her because she's very tuned in to us. If we're not calm all the time, she gets upset. 

 

 

Barking at other dogs in the yard, can easily get out of hand. It can become self-reinforcing because it fills a void when a pup feels bored and if the dogs leave when she barks, she'll come to think her barking sent them away and soon a new habit establishes. Not to mention, if it evolves into barking at many triggers/fence fighting, it can increase arousal levels causing her to become very riled up. 

The more dogs get aroused and (frustrated) and vent their frustration by barking, the more this behavior puts roots and becomes established. These frequent rehearsals make the behavior habitual and more difficult to overcome over time.

Ideally, we want to supervise our dogs when outside and call them back as soon as we recognize signs that they're about to react to outside triggers. Do this before your pup starts reacting when she's still under threshold and reward generously. 

 

She's obsessively going out there and barking at them now. We keep redirecting her but she's definitely in flight stage too because she is less responsive. 

 

It is great she has been able to respond to you despite this level of distraction though! Not many dogs can be easily called off when they're focused on something and intently barking. Keep up the great work in your recalls!

She's realized what we are doing and while she will come to us, she runs away from us if we try and urge her inside the house now. So we're not letting her go out there as often anymore because it must be supervised now and that's frustrating her too. She barks at the sliding door now and we redirect her but she keeps going back to it. But we don't have time to always go sit out there with her for an hour like she wants. I'm hoping she will give this up sooner than later. 

 

The cat time is getting better. I took a video to share at the end of our training session but it won't let me upload it. But anyway, she was good at ignoring them but then we let her have a friendly visit afterward while she stayed calm. She laid down and wagged her tail while they sniffed her through the gate. She even tried to lick them. As soon as she gets excited and tries to jump up, we close the door and end the session. The cats have started pawing at her tail gently and she looks at them but stays focused on our "look at me" or whatever. We did try letting one of the cats out again but she got too aroused so I think we need to stay patient and slow with this. 

 

Thanks again for all your help! You have really saved us and helped us get through this more than I can even express. 

 

 

[CAITLIN FITZGERALD]

Last night we do not know why but she peed on her mat again when we were getting ready for bed. There was no yelling or upset - she was just sniffing around something really intensely under the dresser but we don't know what she was smelling - and I was just trying to get her to settle down for bed. Dan was sort of playing with her, trying to get her to relax. I went to wash my face and then I heard him calling me. She peed all over her mat. Neither of us got mad and we were just cleaning it up which took a while as there was tons of pee. I left to throw away the paper towels and as soon as I walked out, she peed on the floor. We didn't get mad - but we don't know why she did it twice. She did drink a lot of water last night but she also peed before we brought her to the room. I think it was behavioral but we're not sure what is going on. We're going to cut her off from water a couple of hours before bed but she gets thirsty so I don't know how well she'll take that. 

This morning, she has been a handful. We let her out three times and she went potty and then went straight to the fence where the neighbor dogs sometimes are. They weren't there and she cried nonstop. She would not listen to us when we tried to distract her and we had to use high value treats that we save for puppy class to lure her back. She threw several tantrums and has stood at the sliding door and barked since we brought her in. I could not redirect her constantly as we both had meetings so we just let her bark it out. She's so bored but doesn't want to use licking mat, kongs, frozen rag, or toys. She just wants to go outside. She also went to bark at the door where the cats were. Also, she had seemed calm at first but the cats wanted out so we decided to let her stay on leash with them and moved the gate to the bedroom so the 1 yr old cat can feel safe. (She had been doing so well with the cat training so I guess we got cocky). The 8 month old cat went to the hammock above the couch and Atari didn't chase her at first but then changed her mind and jumped on the couch, over the spikey mats, onto the back of the couch so she was face to face with the cat who hissed at her. I grabbed her and we took the cats out of the living room again. Yes, we moved too fast and now I worry we stepped backward.

Now she's been barking nonstop at both doors. We're not giving her attention - she finally gave up and fell asleep right now as I was typing this message but it was about 2 hours of this. So anyway, not sure what to do about the obsessive wanting to go outside and bark at dogs + constant boredom. She literally only wants us to engage with her and will not play alone. Even with her stuffed kong, she will only eat them if we hold the kong for her. I thought about getting her a puzzle but I don't think she'll use them because she tends to get frustrated very fast. Also, when I was throwing the treats to get her to walk away from the doors, she started doing it for attention and to get the treats so I think I must have done it wrong. 

The only thing that makes her quiet/calm is giving her a bully stick and obviously we can't give her bully stick after bully stick. I worry they'll lose value and upset her stomach. 

So I feel like I must be doing everything wrong because she's peeing at night almost every evening now and she's no longer redirectable - starting to behave even worse all the time. 

[Adrienne Farricelli]

Yes, she loves the kong, and I got a kong wobbler like you recommended which took her a couple of weeks to learn but now she uses it all the time. I got her a licking mat also and am going to try the brain games with the muffin tin this week. If she doesn't understand it right away, I noticed she gets frustrated and won't use it. I also got a flirt pole which she loves. 

Try to make it easier for her initially. For example, you can place smaller balls in the muffin tin that are easier to lift up and remove. Then make it gradually harder and harder to help her learn to focus more rather than getting frustrated. 

We also have to spend more time on drop it. Whenever sees me get a treat out, she drops anything so I haven't been able to trade her anything. I've been saying drop when she does let go of things but I don't think she's getting what it means yet. 

It's OK initially to put the treat right in her face to get to drop, praising and rewarding. However, in the midst of that, at some point, try to do so empty handed. Here is a video demo:

 
 
Well the stamina is not physical, it's with the mental stimulation. She gets wired so fast and we lose that window for her to nap easily very quickly. Today after her puppy class, it took her 20 minutes to wind down and usually she comes home and collapses.

Ah, gotcha! Sorry I misunderstood! The Australian cattle dog part of her likely has instilled that desire to work, work, work up until she can. These resilient dogs were purposely built for managing the rough terrains of their homelands, withstand the unforgivable heat, and control stubborn herds of cattle. This all took lots of energy!

Indeed, it can be said that this dog breed is always ready for action and will not rest as long as there is something to do. It's as if these dogs do not want to miss anything. Working is their life, not working is their misery. 

Even when in the home, an Australian Cattle dog will be extra aware of his environment, and that includes their owners' emotions, whereabouts  and actions. And after exciting events, it's difficult for them to wind down, sort of like children after going to an amusement park. 

  Jazz up/settle down is also not working anymore. She does it perfectly but she is not getting as "jazzed up" anymore and then when we stop playing she keeps pacing around and won't sleep. 

It can be a good thing that she doesn't get that jazzed up anymore, maybe she learned that the calmer behaviors get rewarded so why not just start straight acting calm in the first place? However, she's not that calm to be inducive to sleep. Try to swap to calmer activities when her nap time is around the corner, like licking, chewing something. 

 
She did it again the next night. I didn't yell at her but I said to get off the bed and I was sort of like "ugh, off" in an annoyed/tired voice (she realized she could jump on it the other day) and so she did but then right after, she peed on the floor. I am working even harder on watching my own energy around her because she's very tuned in to us. If we're not calm all the time, she gets upset. 

She likely is indeed very in tune with your body language and felt a need to "apologize." I know of some dogs who have peed submissively even when their owners rolled their eyes and sighed upon noticing them poop  on the floor. 
 
 Barking at other dogs in the yard, can easily get out of hand. It can become self-reinforcing because it fills a void when a pup feels bored and if the dogs leave when she barks, she'll come to think her barking sent them away and soon a new habit establishes. Not to mention, if it evolves into barking at many triggers/fence fighting, it can increase arousal levels causing her to become very riled up. 
The more dogs get aroused and (frustrated) and vent their frustration by barking, the more this behavior puts roots and becomes established. These frequent rehearsals make the behavior habitual and more difficult to overcome over time.

Ideally, we want to supervise our dogs when outside and call them back as soon as we recognize signs that they're about to react to outside triggers. Do this before your pup starts reacting when she's still under threshold and reward generously. 
 
She's obsessively going out there and barking at them now. We keep redirecting her but she's definitely in flight stage too because she is less responsive. 

Repeatedly redirecting risks also un-powering the cue used to redirect since barking is self-reinforcing and she may be having  more "fun" outside compared to whatever rewards she is getting for coming back. We may therefore risk the phenomenon of poisoned cues.

One of the most poisoned cues in the dog training world is the word ''come!'' or whichever cue is used to call a dog. There is a myriad of examples of how easily a come command may be ruined irreparably.

For instance, dog owners at the dog park most likely call their dogs when it is time to leave. The recall command, therefore, becomes "poisoned" when the dog starts to associate being called with having the leash snapped on and going home. The same goes with owners who call their dogs to only subsequently engage them in tasks they may dislike, such as nail clippings, baths, ear cleanings, or anything perceived as boring and so forth.

It comes as no surprise, therefore, why dogs may no longer want to come when called when he most often gets an unpleasant surprise/consequence. They may consequently appear to be ''lazy, stubborn, or disobedient '' in our eyes when all they are doing is trying to protect themselves from undesired happenings.

 The solution is to call your dog, praise your dog for coming and then briefly engage her for some time in something she really likes. If at the dog park, therefore, this may mean playing some tug-of-war before snapping the leash on and then walking a lap around the park allowing sniffing before leaving. 

In the case of calling back indoors, you can give your cue in a happy tone of voice and praise/reward by allowing her to go on a fun treasure hunt once inside followed by play with a favorite toy. This can help ''break'' the association so the ''come' cue is no longer associated with something unpleasant.

She's realized what we are doing and while she will come to us, she runs away from us if we try and urge her inside the house now. So we're not letting her go out there as often anymore because it must be supervised now and that's frustrating her too. She barks at the sliding door now and we redirect her but she keeps going back to it. But we don't have time to always go sit out there with her for an hour like she wants. I'm hoping she will give this up sooner than later. 

I don't think she'll give up wanting to be outdoors easily. You have a mix of outdoorsy, active breeds so the outdoors is inherently very reinforcing. Make  sure to dedicate some time each each day for meeting those needs for exercise, training, play, socialization and mental stimulation. Allow outdoor time so that a good part of those needs are met, but in a productive way. Sniffing adventures, treasure hunts. You can also find activities that can help keep her focus away from wanting to bark at triggers when outdoors such as machines that make bubbles for dogs (yes, bacon-flavored bubbles!).

However, make sure the indoors is teeming with good things too, otherwise we risk making the outdoors very reinforcing and being indoors felt like punishment.  We can't control hormones and inherent desires to want to spend time exploring, but we can make the most of the time spent outdoors so that it's not spent constantly barking at triggers. 
 
The cat time is getting better. I took a video to share at the end of our training session but it won't let me upload it. But anyway, she was good at ignoring them but then we let her have a friendly visit afterward while she stayed calm. She laid down and wagged her tail while they sniffed her through the gate. She even tried to lick them. As soon as she gets excited and tries to jump up, we close the door and end the session. The cats have started pawing at her tail gently and she looks at them but stays focused on our "look at me" or whatever. We did try letting one of the cats out again but she got too aroused so I think we need to stay patient and slow with this. 

That sounds like progress! You can upload the video on YouTube and then share the link here if you want.
 
Thanks again for all your help! You have really saved us and helped us get through this more than I can even express. 

You are very welcome!

[Adrienne Farricelli]

Last night we do not know why but she peed on her mat again when we were getting ready for bed. There was no yelling or upset - she was just sniffing around something really intensely under the dresser but we don't know what she was smelling - and I was just trying to get her to settle down for bed. Dan was sort of playing with her, trying to get her to relax. I went to wash my face and then I heard him calling me. She peed all over her mat. Neither of us got mad and we were just cleaning it up which took a while as there was tons of pee.

OK, so if she is peeing always on a specific mat and there is no exact trigger, something about the smell of it must be at play. Make sure to clean up with enzyme-based cleaners, and use a black light to ensure there's no remnants, but at this point, we may want to consider removing access to the mat if it is what triggers her peeing. 

I left to throw away the paper towels and as soon as I walked out, she peed on the floor. We didn't get mad - but we don't know why she did it twice. She did drink a lot of water last night but she also peed before we brought her to the room. I think it was behavioral but we're not sure what is going on. We're going to cut her off from water a couple of hours before bed but she gets thirsty so I don't know how well she'll take that. 

That's interesting that she did it again. Getting her checked out for a urinary tract infection would not be a bad idea at this point, especially if she was doing pretty well with her potty training before. 

This morning, she has been a handful. We let her out three times and she went potty and then went straight to the fence where the neighbor dogs sometimes are. They weren't there and she cried nonstop. She would not listen to us when we tried to distract her and we had to use high value treats that we save for puppy class to lure her back. She threw several tantrums and has stood at the sliding door and barked since we brought her in. I could not redirect her constantly as we both had meetings so we just let her bark it out.

I would take her at this point outside on a leash so that you no longer need to lure her back inside and risk poisoning her recall/redirection cues. 

She's so bored but doesn't want to use licking mat, kongs, frozen rag, or toys. She just wants to go outside. She also went to bark at the door where the cats were. Also, she had seemed calm at first but the cats wanted out so we decided to let her stay on leash with them and moved the gate to the bedroom so the 1 yr old cat can feel safe. (She had been doing so well with the cat training so I guess we got cocky). The 8 month old cat went to the hammock above the couch and Atari didn't chase her at first but then changed her mind and jumped on the couch, over the spikey mats, onto the back of the couch so she was face to face with the cat who hissed at her. I grabbed her and we took the cats out of the living room again. Yes, we moved too fast and now I worry we stepped backward.

Now she's been barking nonstop at both doors. We're not giving her attention - she finally gave up and fell asleep right now as I was typing this message but it was about 2 hours of this. So anyway, not sure what to do about the obsessive wanting to go outside and bark at dogs + constant boredom.

She literally only wants us to engage with her and will not play alone. Even with her stuffed kong, she will only eat them if we hold the kong for her. I thought about getting her a puzzle but I don't think she'll use them because she tends to get frustrated very fast. Also, when I was throwing the treats to get her to walk away from the doors, she started doing it for attention and to get the treats so I think I must have done it wrong. The only thing that makes her quiet/calm is giving her a bully stick and obviously we can't give her bully stick after bully stick. I worry they'll lose value and upset her stomach. 

So I feel like I must be doing everything wrong because she's peeing at night almost every evening now and she's no longer redirectable - starting to behave even worse all the time. 

Puppies can be a handful, and the active, outdoorsy breeds can be a lot of work due to their selective breeding. She may benefit from some play with other puppies, like if you are taking her to puppy classes discuss this with the trainers, they can help you organize play dates. It may also help discussing with them about the possibility of starting her on the ABCs of some canine sport, see what they offer in your area, although we can't have her do any sports fully yet until her growth plates in her legs have closed. 

With these types of pups, it may feel like we need to invest lots of time to keep them entertained, but it's sort of investment.  Like we may need to schedule our time around them to then get them to relax/sleep and we can then dedicate our time on other things. For example, in the morning when they are the most active, we may need to spend time on walking them, playing with them, engaging in brain games and doing some training with them before getting them ready for their mid-morning nap (like around 11), then after the nap, we need to do organize some more activities for another nap, rinse and repeat several times and create routines.  A game that can turn handy is the "sit/kibble toss" game. Basically the pup has to come towards us, sit and we toss a kibble to reward the sit, then rinse and repeat using a portion of the pup's meals.  Mix and match games and offer them in between the nap times. Often, in busy households, this requires taking turns with other family members. 

[CAITLIN FITZGERALD]

Ok that’s all very helpful! Thank you for responding to both posts. I’m sorry if we seem so dramatic - the struggle is real over here. But understanding her working breed stuff and why she is so high strung helps. We moved the sleeping mat to another room and she just had her bed now so no more peeing at night (yet). She did pee on some papers at my parents’ house yesterday and the old dog was not around - my mom said she was playing with her outside and then she ran around the house and then peed somewhat randomly. 
 

but otherwise, after reading your response I took her on a longer walk this morning and it helped a lot. I think if I walk to little then she gets wired but if I walk a lot then she gets worn out. Then tonight instead of a second walk we took her to the dog park since she is now fully vaxxed. When we came home she napped and then she was able to play in the backyard for about an hour until she decided to bark at them and we redirected her and then brought her inside. Fetch outside also helped a lot last night. 
 

so we’ll keep working on the stuff you suggested - thanks again! 
 

as for the cats, she’s doing great but can’t handle the fence being down. How will we know if we can progress? I can’t find a play pen that looks sturdy enough for her size and since we haven’t crated her I’m not sure how to advance this  

 This video was after 10 minutes of her sitting and doing training/games with cats there - tonight was even better than what you see here - we let her look at them as long as she stays calm but as you can see I struggled to redirect her too. I think her “come” has definitely become poisoned  

 

[Adrienne Farricelli]

Hi there, thanks for the video, very helpful!

Ok, so now that I put a face on Atari, WOW, I see a whole LOT of heeler in there! This explains several of the behaviors you report. Let's delve a little deeper on things. 

Ok that’s all very helpful! Thank you for responding to both posts. I’m sorry if we seem so dramatic - the struggle is real over here. But understanding her working breed stuff and why she is so high strung helps.

No worries! I can fully understand your struggles. You are dealing with a dog who is for a good part a herder, and herding dogs aren't for the faint of heart. I mean, they have the potential for being wonderful pets, but that takes a lot of guidance, management and redirection for them to reach their full potential and it can feel exhausting, especially when you need to juggle work, family, cater to other pets and so many other things. They can be very demanding and high maintenance. One main struggle is convincing these dogs that cars, cats, fleeing children and skateboards are not cattle or sheep to herd.

We moved the sleeping mat to another room and she just had her bed now so no more peeing at night (yet). She did pee on some papers at my parents’ house yesterday and the old dog was not around - my mom said she was playing with her outside and then she ran around the house and then peed somewhat randomly. 

One common pattern seems to be that she's looking for certain surfaces to pee on. Likely her bed no, because it's associated with sleep and dogs are naturally inclined to not pee where they eat, play and nap.

Perhaps the breeder used pee pads and now she is always looking for some type of absorbing material? Just speculation at this point.

It may be difficult for pups though to carry over their potty training to new places. They can't generalize well just as it's hard for them to sit in the yard, when they do just fine sitting in a kitchen. I mean even adult dogs have accidents when they move to new homes or are in new places and when around different people.  It could be she really had to go- or again she may be leaving her scent to communicate something. Dogs can purposely leave scent on places for other dogs to sniff later on-even when the dogs aren't present. 

Managing her environment so to not offer absorbent substrates (like mats/newspaper, rugs) and letting her indoors only once she has emptied her bladder outdoors may help. I wouldn't worry too much as long as she maintains a higher success rate at home and she's home most of the time, but we can take steps to make these little accidents less likely to happen-unless there's a medical issue going on. 

but otherwise, after reading your response I took her on a longer walk this morning and it helped a lot. I think if I walk to little then she gets wired but if I walk a lot then she gets worn out.

It can be challenging finding the right balance, but if you find what works best, try to stick to that plan for several days and see how it goes. Factor in though that every day is never the same. If for instance, you take her on a walk, and there are lots of overstimulating things going on, or right after the walk, she gets to rehearse aroused barking at other dogs for sustained periods of time, that will put a dent in her ability to relax.

If she is for a good part herding dog, consider that they are very sensitive to environmental changes. As herders, they are responsible for many things, maintaining order, driving herds in specific directions and ensuring the safety of the herd at all times. These dogs are bred for paying attention to every tiny detail.

Herders are therefore expected to respond to situations in lightning-fast ways, they will therefore pay meticulous attention to their environments, their associated familiar patterns, peoples' emotions/bodily cues and they are prone to actively spring into action if something appears amiss.

They'll need our patient guidance and redirection to more appropriate responses such as coming to us rather than barking, or attention heeling rather than lunging at cars. 

Then tonight instead of a second walk we took her to the dog park since she is now fully vaxxed. When we came home she napped and then she was able to play in the backyard for about an hour until she decided to bark at them and we redirected her and then brought her inside. Fetch outside also helped a lot last night. so we’ll keep working on the stuff you suggested - thanks again! 

That's great! Just a little word about dog parks. They are frowned upon by many trainers. I don't personally frown upon them because I feel that they can be a perfect solution for exercising and socializing dogs, BUT, only for certain dogs and only in certain settings such as dog parks with known dogs with matching play styles or where there are trainers supervising and moderating play and finding suitable play mates.

The problem is that we ideally want to expose our dogs to dogs who have proper social skills, especially when they are puppies and are literally sponges. Exposure to the wrong types of dogs and in a settings where there is not much moderation going on can cause problems. Play also needs to constructive with dogs learning to read other dog's body language and ensuring it's a pleasurable event for all participants. 

In dog parks sadly there are often dogs being bullies and other dogs subjected to bullying. Some dogs singled out and chased by a group of dogs. Some others don't respect other dogs' needs for a break.  Sure, many dogs go home tired, but they may be exhausted from the mental stress of being chased or from the high arousal that chasing triggers. 

With herding dogs, we need to be careful about their desire to chase and control motion with tenacity. If allowed to rehearse on certain dogs, this will reinforce the behavior making it more likely to repeat. However, one day they may meet a dog who doesn't like to have their moves micromanaged and this may cause frustration which can escalate. This is most likely to occur as pups of herding breeds further mature, but something to be aware of.

Of course, Atari being a "mix" may not inherit all these traits. There are also many stories of owners taking their dogs to the park and never having problems, although chances are high one day some "mishap" will eventually happen- hopefully not serious though. 

For this reason I mentioned puppy classes, you have trainers there who can help ensure safe, moderated exposures to other puppies in a structured way. Even better if they have adult "moderator" teacher dogs who can help pups learn proper social skills. 

As for the cats, she’s doing great but can’t handle the fence being down. How will we know if we can progress? I can’t find a play pen that looks sturdy enough for her size and since we haven’t crated her I’m not sure how to advance this. 

 This video was after 10 minutes of her sitting and doing training/games with cats there - tonight was even better than what you see here - we let her look at them as long as she stays calm but as you can see I struggled to redirect her too. I think her “come” has definitely become poisoned .

Thanks for the video, I watched it with audio and without audio. When you say "leave it" was it for the cats or for the treat you placed in front of Atari? Have you already practiced "leave its" on cats?

I think part of the issue is possibly knowing what it applies to and the cat swatting at Atari's tail may be a little too much for Atari to feel enough "safe" to just ignore it. Maybe if we lower criteria a bit and work with the fence farther away (or even better, place something so that kitty paws don't come through) we can gain a more responsive state. I think you are doing a good job, it's just not easy paying attention with a curious kitty swatting at her back! It was funny to watch, thanks for the giggles! This cat seems comfortable over all!

[CAITLIN FITZGERALD]

On 5/5/2022 at 5:10 PM, Adrienne Farricelli said:

No worries! I can fully understand your struggles. You are dealing with a dog who is for a good part a herder, and herding dogs aren't for the faint of heart. I mean, they have the potential for being wonderful pets, but that takes a lot of guidance, management and redirection for them to reach their full potential and it can feel exhausting, especially when you need to juggle work, family, cater to other pets and so many other things. They can be very demanding and high maintenance. One main struggle is convincing these dogs that cars, cats, fleeing children and skateboards are not cattle or sheep to herd.

We had no idea she would be this hard. Before her, we had a corgi and he was not this difficult. At least, I don't recall it being nearly this hard. He was a giant corgi but his short legs made it easier and he was not a chewer like she is. Honestly, there is about 10 minutes every day where we both wonder if we made a horrible mistake and should rehome her but it makes us sad to think of doing that and we don't want to traumatize her either. We'll stick it out, but we are very run down. Our corgi did not calm down until he was 3 and didn't mellow out until he was 5 but all we had to do was play fetch with him 3x a day and take him on a long walk in the morning. He'd happily chew on a stick for hours but she's like ADHD or something and very little holds her attention for long. She needs constant EVERYTHING and I don't even know if we are doing her a disservice by not being compatible enough with her needs. We are trying very hard to be good parents and maybe when her brain develops, it'll be easier. 

Managing her environment so to not offer absorbent substrates (like mats/newspaper, rugs) and letting her indoors only once she has emptied her bladder outdoors may help. I wouldn't worry too much as long as she maintains a higher success rate at home and she's home most of the time, but we can take steps to make these little accidents less likely to happen-unless there's a medical issue going on. 

Ok, the only accident in the last week was the other day when she peed in the kitchen. She had been napping and then after, I tried to get her to go outside but she was fixated on Dan cutting up her treats for a cat training session. I trusted her that she didn't have to go and then 5 minutes later, she peed in the kitchen. So, lesson learned that I should have made her go out with me. But otherwise, it's gotten better. And the excitement peeing is getting less frequent. She did it today when we came across a woman with a dog on our walk, but I had not seen her do it in a couple of weeks, not even at puppy classes. 

It can be challenging finding the right balance, but if you find what works best, try to stick to that plan for several days and see how it goes. Factor in though that every day is never the same. If for instance, you take her on a walk, and there are lots of overstimulating things going on, or right after the walk, she gets to rehearse aroused barking at other dogs for sustained periods of time, that will put a dent in her ability to relax.

We have definitely seen that not every day is the same! I keep thinking "ok, we figured this out. She's understanding what we want from her" because we'll have a mellow morning or she'll finally sleep a lot all day and I can see the light at the end of the tunnel. But then literally an hour later or the next day, she's back to being in and on everything. We keep her routine fairly steady but every day her behavior is completely different. 

If she is for a good part herding dog, consider that they are very sensitive to environmental changes. As herders, they are responsible for many things, maintaining order, driving herds in specific directions and ensuring the safety of the herd at all times. These dogs are bred for paying attention to every tiny detail.

Herders are therefore expected to respond to situations in lightning-fast ways, they will therefore pay meticulous attention to their environments, their associated familiar patterns, peoples' emotions/bodily cues and they are prone to actively spring into action if something appears amiss.

They'll need our patient guidance and redirection to more appropriate responses such as coming to us rather than barking, or attention heeling rather than lunging at cars. 

Ok that makes total sense and is very helpful - she is absolutely detail-oriented and lightning-fast! I think that's why she doesn't nap enough even though we try to force her sleep. On a good day she sleeps 15 hours of the day. But lately, it's been more like 12-13 because I just can't get her to stop walking around and needing to know what's going on. I feel like a hostage because I have to sit down or she won't sleep. She's unpredictable as far as if she will get up. Sometimes I can go to the other room and leave for 10 minutes and she'll stay asleep. Other times, if I just get up and grab something from the fridge and I'm gone for 30 seconds, she will get up and go to see what I'm doing. (She goes back to sleep as long as I sit right back down). 

That's great! Just a little word about dog parks. They are frowned upon by many trainers. I don't personally frown upon them because I feel that they can be a perfect solution for exercising and socializing dogs, BUT, only for certain dogs and only in certain settings such as dog parks with known dogs with matching play styles or where there are trainers supervising and moderating play and finding suitable play mates.

The problem is that we ideally want to expose our dogs to dogs who have proper social skills, especially when they are puppies and are literally sponges. Exposure to the wrong types of dogs and in a settings where there is not much moderation going on can cause problems. Play also needs to constructive with dogs learning to read other dog's body language and ensuring it's a pleasurable event for all participants. 

In dog parks sadly there are often dogs being bullies and other dogs subjected to bullying. Some dogs singled out and chased by a group of dogs. Some others don't respect other dogs' needs for a break.  Sure, many dogs go home tired, but they may be exhausted from the mental stress of being chased or from the high arousal that chasing triggers. 

We did run into this with our corgi - he was bullied a lot at the parks and he was never properly socialized. I didn't know how to work through that so we just stopped taking him and then he was too old. We started doing pack walks when he was 5 with a behaviorist at a good park (the only one we go to now because the other parks in our city have owners who sit and talk but don't watch their dogs). The pack walks helped but we were never able to fully rehabilitate his social skills with other dogs. We wanted to do better with Atari but frequent play dates are hard to come by and I worry we're not doing enough for her. 

With herding dogs, we need to be careful about their desire to chase and control motion with tenacity. If allowed to rehearse on certain dogs, this will reinforce the behavior making it more likely to repeat. However, one day they may meet a dog who doesn't like to have their moves micromanaged and this may cause frustration which can escalate. This is most likely to occur as pups of herding breeds further mature, but something to be aware of. 

When we were at the park, a couple of adult heelers were being a little intense. There were about 6 adult dogs, all larger breeds and she was having a great time playing with them but then the two herding dogs started chasing her. They got distracted pretty quickly by another large dog so it wasn't for long but it did overwhelm her for a moment. Their owners were elderly and just chatting with the other owners and I didn't like that they weren't calling them off. 

Of course, Atari being a "mix" may not inherit all these traits. There are also many stories of owners taking their dogs to the park and never having problems, although chances are high one day some "mishap" will eventually happen- hopefully not serious though. 

For this reason I mentioned puppy classes, you have trainers there who can help ensure safe, moderated exposures to other puppies in a structured way. Even better if they have adult "moderator" teacher dogs who can help pups learn proper social skills. 

I definitely hear you and we will be mindful of the other dogs especially so we don't repeat what happened with our corgi. It's also hard when the other owners are like "relax, take her off leash, let her play. Stop being a controlling mom" and then we find out that they have wild dogs who don't socialize well. I think we will be more careful who we let her play with and maybe stick to scheduled play dates with friends until she is older. At what age is she less of a sponge and we can trust that she won't develop bad manners from the park? 

Thanks for the video, I watched it with audio and without audio. When you say "leave it" was it for the cats or for the treat you placed in front of Atari? Have you already practiced "leave its" on cats?

I think I was trying out "leave it" like leave the cat alone. She is really good at "leave it" with treats but we can't get her "leave it" with stuff or the cats yet. 

I think part of the issue is possibly knowing what it applies to and the cat swatting at Atari's tail may be a little too much for Atari to feel enough "safe" to just ignore it. Maybe if we lower criteria a bit and work with the fence farther away (or even better, place something so that kitty paws don't come through) we can gain a more responsive state. I think you are doing a good job, it's just not easy paying attention with a curious kitty swatting at her back! It was funny to watch, thanks for the giggles! This cat seems comfortable over all!

The cat has swatted at Atari about four times now and she didn't mind. This was the first time she even reacted, actually. I might not have had high value treats. She gets bored with the treats very quickly and we've been cycling through like 10 different types/flavors. 

We were letting her look at them as long as she didn't get too intense or jump onto the fence - but you're saying we should have her ignore them completely? And then how do we know if we are making progress - like eventually we can take the gate down and keep having her ignore them? 

Thanks again, you are really helping me so much! 

[Adrienne Farricelli]

We had no idea she would be this hard. Before her, we had a corgi and he was not this difficult. At least, I don't recall it being nearly this hard. He was a giant corgi but his short legs made it easier and he was not a chewer like she is.

Yes, the short legs make things easier as corgis don't need as much walking and exercise, although any bored dog may chew. Lab and heeler mix, you are looking at a mix of two high energy breeds one bred for retrieving over long distances for a good part of the day, the other bred for herding cattle for a good part of the day. Think of your pup as a baby Einstein who has high energy and superior intelligence and is eager to learn and needs variety in her life to stay entertained. 

Honestly, there is about 10 minutes every day where we both wonder if we made a horrible mistake and should rehome her but it makes us sad to think of doing that and we don't want to traumatize her either. We'll stick it out, but we are very run down. Our corgi did not calm down until he was 3 and didn't mellow out until he was 5 but all we had to do was play fetch with him 3x a day and take him on a long walk in the morning. He'd happily chew on a stick for hours but she's like ADHD or something and very little holds her attention for long. She needs constant EVERYTHING and I don't even know if we are doing her a disservice by not being compatible enough with her needs. We are trying very hard to be good parents and maybe when her brain develops, it'll be easier. 

 

I hear you, it can be very difficult. A mix of two hard working and athletic breeds in the juvenile flight stage, now almost overlapping with the rebellious adolescent stage isn't a walk in the park. Not surprisingly, this is the stage where most dogs are surrendered. The flight stage is also known as "the brat stage" or "juvenile delinquent stage" for a good reason.

 

Like your corgi, you may not see her mellow out too much until 5, but you can provide brain games, enroll in some doggy sports and train her to a higher level to help her succeed. I admire your determination to help her through and your posts demonstrate a  great willingness to help her succeed. Don't forget to take breaks and pat yourself on your back for every tiny sign of progress. 

 

Try to find activities she loves. For example, her retriever part may enjoy fetching and I know some herders who love the sport ofTreibball (rolling sheep), but if none are organized near you, you can look for several large inflatable exercise balls and start by training (with the use of a clicker) your puppy to hand target first, then to target a sticky note placed on an opened cabinet, then to target the sticky note on the cabinet with enough force to close the opened cabinet, then place the sticky note on a large ball and encourage your pup to push the ball with her nose, gradually adding distance. The sticky note can be removed once your puppy grasps the concept. The goal is for the dog to herd the ball, pushing it around into a designated net. Always check with your vet before starting any exercises/sports with your pup.

 

Here is the guide on targeting:

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/brain-training/preschool/targeting/

 

Picture of heeler using a ball to herd, look at that happy face! :

 

Her ADHD is likely due to her high intelligence and need for variety. Rotate her toys and try adding a little twist to them. For instance, insert a toy into another toy for her to extract, hide her kibble around the home always in different places for some fun treasure hunts. Go through all the brain games and have fun with them. Use the clicker. She may love the game of hot and cold:

 

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/brain-training/university/hot-and-cold/

 

Teach her to turn on a light:

 

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/video-archive/train-your-dog-to-turn-on-a-light/

 

Even when doing everything right, this stage can remain challenging. It's important to be consistent, patient and use positive training reminding yourself often that it's a stage and things should be getting better with continued and consistent training, mental stimulation and socialization. 

 

Your pup at 5 months will be easily distracted, so it is important to be patient and proceed in stages. If you struggle at any time, it's a sign that your pup isn't ready for that level of distraction yet so you need to take a step back. Remind your pup to look at you for guidance and mark/reward her by tossing a kibble for looking up to your face as you are her mentor and ally, letting her know you're assessing the situation and will help guide her through it. 

 

Most of us dog trainers seem to agree that dogs bred specifically for hunting (from birds to rats), herding, or working (like Labs) are often off the charts with energy. These dogs can be entertaining to live with, but often require a lot of forethought to achieve the right balance of mental and physical exercise necessary while keeping energy levels down at manageable levels.

 

In puppy classes, trainers can help provide guidance on how to teach your pup to focus on you despite the distraction of the other pups. And when pups play, they should be taught to check -in with their owners frequently. This provides a good set-up for the pups learning to  be steady in many settings despite the distractions. 

 

Exercise and play in a controlled setting is important. Allowing off-the-charts hard play play with no structure or control and for prolonged periods of time can lead to high excitement and overly aroused states that can push dogs into an overactive stress response. On top of this, too much exercise increases stamina so the dogs need always more and more and this is why more and more behaviorists are seeing dogs who get crazy  amounts of exercise but remain still unruly. 

 

Finding that right balance between mental and physical exercise is the key. More mental stimulation and keeping physical exercise to a conditioning level, can lead to more relaxed and happy dogs. 

 

It's also important not falling into the mental trap of comparing a dog to another one you may have owned as like snowflakes dogs are all different. Even within a litter of pups you'll have wide temperament variances. Thoughts like that may cause feelings of sadness, anger, or frustration. 

 

It helps to try our best to separate past personal feelings from our pup’s behavior and understand that our pups do not “choose” to act hyper, and that it may be easier for our pups if we consistently show them through positive and happy training how we expect them to behave and repeat this over and over until they start understanding what we expect from them and how rewarding it is to behave appropriately. 

 

If worse comes to worse, you can always try taking her for a couple times a day to doggy daycare and see if that helps. Now I am not fond of many daycares where they are allowed to play all day hard and this leads to the overstimulated conditions discussed early.  Not to mention possibly mingling with unruly dogs. I am talking about some serious day cares run by dog trainers who monitor dogs, screen then and ensure dogs in their care are provided with exercise, but also training/ mental stimulation, but also the opportunity to relax and rest. This may give you some time off to relax too and see whether it helps make a difference in her behavior or not.  

Ok, the only accident in the last week was the other day when she peed in the kitchen. She had been napping and then after, I tried to get her to go outside but she was fixated on Dan cutting up her treats for a cat training session. I trusted her that she didn't have to go and then 5 minutes later, she peed in the kitchen. So, lesson learned that I should have made her go out with me. But otherwise, it's gotten better. And the excitement peeing is getting less frequent. She did it today when we came across a woman with a dog on our walk, but I had not seen her do it in a couple of weeks, not even at puppy classes. 

That sounds like progress over all! I know, it's challenging knowing when they'll be able to keep it a little longer or not. I too at times think let's see if she can go a few extra minutes without having an accident, and then I regret that deeply once the pup has an accident and it could have been prevented. However, we need to test their bladder capacities every now and then, as that's part of potty training increasing the time they're taken out gradually. This allows us to gauge whether we can stretch the time they're taken out. Both my Rotties weren't fully potty trained until they were 8 months old. We consider fully potty trained when they haven't had any accidents for at least 8 weeks straight. 

We have definitely seen that not every day is the same! I keep thinking "ok, we figured this out. She's understanding what we want from her" because we'll have a mellow morning or she'll finally sleep a lot all day and I can see the light at the end of the tunnel. But then literally an hour later or the next day, she's back to being in and on everything. We keep her routine fairly steady but every day her behavior is completely different. 

Yes, there are so many factors to keep into consideration. As we get to know them better, we can figure out patterns of things that can cause them to become overstimulated and take steps to prevent them reaching that point. Try to carefully evaluate what is going on those mellower days. Yet, we may miss internal things like possible growth pains or sore gums from permanent teeth erupting. 

Ok that makes total sense and is very helpful - she is absolutely detail-oriented and lightning-fast! I think that's why she doesn't nap enough even though we try to force her sleep. On a good day she sleeps 15 hours of the day. But lately, it's been more like 12-13 because I just can't get her to stop walking around and needing to know what's going on. I feel like a hostage because I have to sit down or she won't sleep. She's unpredictable as far as if she will get up. Sometimes I can go to the other room and leave for 10 minutes and she'll stay asleep. Other times, if I just get up and grab something from the fridge and I'm gone for 30 seconds, she will get up and go to see what I'm doing. (She goes back to sleep as long as I sit right back down). 

Pups needs to discover their off buttons and learn that it feels good to relax and fall asleep. A play pen may discourage her from feeling the urge to follow you everywhere so when you get up she may just turn her head your way and stay put. 

Also, you may find some of these tips helpful if she's on the clingy side, particularly the 'destination nowhere' exercise where you desensitize her to you getting up and walking around the house. Here is the link:

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/following-owners-around-house/

We did run into this with our corgi - he was bullied a lot at the parks and he was never properly socialized. I didn't know how to work through that so we just stopped taking him and then he was too old. We started doing pack walks when he was 5 with a behaviorist at a good park (the only one we go to now because the other parks in our city have owners who sit and talk but don't watch their dogs). The pack walks helped but we were never able to fully rehabilitate his social skills with other dogs. We wanted to do better with Atari but frequent play dates are hard to come by and I worry we're not doing enough for her. 

When we were at the park, a couple of adult heelers were being a little intense. There were about 6 adult dogs, all larger breeds and she was having a great time playing with them but then the two herding dogs started chasing her. They got distracted pretty quickly by another large dog so it wasn't for long but it did overwhelm her for a moment. Their owners were elderly and just chatting with the other owners and I didn't like that they weren't calling them off. 

I definitely hear you and we will be mindful of the other dogs especially so we don't repeat what happened with our corgi. It's also hard when the other owners are like "relax, take her off leash, let her play. Stop being a controlling mom" and then we find out that they have wild dogs who don't socialize well. I think we will be more careful who we let her play with and maybe stick to scheduled play dates with friends until she is older. At what age is she less of a sponge and we can trust that she won't develop bad manners from the park? 

Yeah, not paying attention to the dogs playing and bullying is a big pet peeve of mine. 

Puppies are super "sponges" up to 16 weeks, but even after that time they still learn a whole lot. Even old dogs can learn bad habits from other dogs. When my female Rottie Petra was 8 she suddenly learned to jump up during heeling after watching my father in laws dog do it a few times. It was sort of funny to watch, luckily it was quickly nipped in the bud. 

As she develops and reaches social maturity, she may become more aloof around dogs and take the fun police role, but this depends, if her Lab side prevails, she may likely enjoy being around other dogs. Then we may never predict how things turn out. 

I think I was trying out "leave it" like leave the cat alone. She is really good at "leave it" with treats but we can't get her "leave it" with stuff or the cats yet. 

The cat has swatted at Atari about four times now and she didn't mind. This was the first time she even reacted, actually. I might not have had high value treats. She gets bored with the treats very quickly and we've been cycling through like 10 different types/flavors. 

We were letting her look at them as long as she didn't get too intense or jump onto the fence - but you're saying we should have her ignore them completely? And then how do we know if we are making progress - like eventually we can take the gate down and keep having her ignore them? 

OK, if you were trying out leave it for the cats, she may have assumed you were asking her to leave the treat, hence why she kept turning around to look at the cats despite your "leave it." She actually did really well in leaving the treat, so kudos for training that so well. If you want to progress to leave it with the cats, you will have to train these separately so she's not confused about what exactly you are asking her to leave. 

However, before training her to leave it with the cats, you may need to work more in depth because the cats are much more distracting than a treat in front of her. They are moving and instilling strong chasing instincts, so that's a high level of distraction. 

With a five month old pup she is bit too young to attain a really really reliable leave it or any cue when there is excitement in the area. You will have to start in quiet areas on a daily basis and then build to more  and more distracting places. 

Keep working on creating positive association with the cats. Put her on a leash and have a tub full of treats at hand. Whenever the cats move around make your smacking sound and when she looks at you, say yes! and feed your treat (those treats you are using, you can break each in about 10 pieces so to use less calories and make the most out of them). Keep limiting the cats to a certain part of the home so that your pup sees them up closer only when you are training.

So yes, always start your training in non distracting areas and gradually move to more distracting areas slowly. If at any point you move to a more distracting area and the dog acts out, then you have to go back to the last spot she was listening and train longer there, before moving forward.

Also,  remember as you start moving to more distracting areas, you need to up the ante of the reward. So for non distracting areas you can use soft dog treats broken up to smaller pieces, but when it is more distracting you may need to up that reward to chicken or low sodium beef hot dog slivers.

Once you have a reliable response, use a variety of items when training leave it so that Atari knows it pertains to everything in her sight. Include using a remote control car to represent moving items such as animals or cars before working directly with the cats. You can even put a stuffed animal atop the car so it looks like an animal from a distance. 

A word about treshold, which applies to anything dogs may be overly excited about or fearful of: when dogs aren't paying any more attention to us, they are "over threshold."https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/threshold-levels/

To prevent your dog from going over threshold it's important to protect her personal space. You will therefore need to find that perfect "sweet spot"  where your dog can still see the trigger, but is capable of remaining calm and responsive to you. 

If your dog gets overly excited or reactive towards other dogs, people, bicycles or small animals, you will therefore need to keep her at as distance from them so that she can take directions from you. 

An easy way to visualize the difference between being over threshold and under threshold is imaging your dog being enveloped in an imaginary bubble. The bubble will cushion her from becoming over reactive.

However, let triggers get too close (the cats in this case) and burst that bubble and you are left with a dog who loses her self-control and becomes unresponsive to you. The more you are able to keep your dog under threshold and attain a responsive state, the smaller you can make her bubbles.

Distance though is often not the only thing to watch for when working on keeping a dog under threshold. For example, you may have found a distance from which your pup doesn't react to other dogs, but if a dog is walking very quickly and barking, you may need further distance due to the speed and arousal levels of this dog being too much for your pup.

So your dog's bubble size will vary based on several factors such as the following:

-The intensity of the trigger (a dog barking, walking fast, moving a lot)
-Your dog's experience with the trigger (if your dog was ever attacked by a black dog, she may be more reactive towards black dogs)
-How much training your dog has received. If you have practiced a lot your dog will be more responsive.
-The incentives offered. If you use super high-value treats, you may obtain better responses compared to use low value ones.

Tip: if you ever find yourself saying "leave it" repeatedly with no response,  take a step back and either manage or train for that situation to eliminate the need for saying it repeatedly. The more you say it with no response, the more your cue weakens. The more you get a response, the more you empower it. On top of that, if a dog hears us saying leave it, leave it, they start thinking the new cue is leave it-leave it and therefore won't respond to leave it any more when you say it only once. 

I hope this helps!

Thanks again, you are really helping me so much! 

You're very welcome! Keep us posted. 

[CAITLIN FITZGERALD]

On 5/9/2022 at 5:09 PM, Adrienne Farricelli said:

 

Yes, the short legs make things easier as corgis don't need as much walking and exercise, although any bored dog may chew. Lab and heeler mix, you are looking at a mix of two high energy breeds one bred for retrieving over long distances for a good part of the day, the other bred for herding cattle for a good part of the day. Think of your pup as a baby Einstein who has high energy and superior intelligence and is eager to learn and needs variety in her life to stay entertained. 

I hear you, it can be very difficult. A mix of two hard working and athletic breeds in the juvenile flight stage, now almost overlapping with the rebellious adolescent stage isn't a walk in the park. Not surprisingly, this is the stage where most dogs are surrendered. The flight stage is also known as "the brat stage" or "juvenile delinquent stage" for a good reason.

 

Like your corgi, you may not see her mellow out too much until 5, but you can provide brain games, enroll in some doggy sports and train her to a higher level to help her succeed. I admire your determination to help her through and your posts demonstrate a  great willingness to help her succeed. Don't forget to take breaks and pat yourself on your back for every tiny sign of progress. 

This helped a lot to understand her. It also makes sense why every day has been different. We're trying to find signs to help us hit her sweet spot each day where she's stimulated and worn out but not overly so. 

 

Try to find activities she loves. For example, her retriever part may enjoy fetching and I know some herders who love the sport ofTreibball (rolling sheep), but if none are organized near you, you can look for several large inflatable exercise balls and start by training (with the use of a clicker) your puppy to hand target first, then to target a sticky note placed on an opened cabinet, then to target the sticky note on the cabinet with enough force to close the opened cabinet, then place the sticky note on a large ball and encourage your pup to push the ball with her nose, gradually adding distance. The sticky note can be removed once your puppy grasps the concept. The goal is for the dog to herd the ball, pushing it around into a designated net. Always check with your vet before starting any exercises/sports with your pup.

I love this idea! Thank you. 

 

Here is the guide on targeting:

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/brain-training/preschool/targeting/

We have been working on this. She's great at targeting the hand but still struggles with the idea of the post it when I put it on the wall. However, to be fair, I've only tried it twice so far. 

 

Picture of heeler using a ball to herd, look at that happy face! :

 

Her ADHD is likely due to her high intelligence and need for variety. Rotate her toys and try adding a little twist to them. For instance, insert a toy into another toy for her to extract, hide her kibble around the home always in different places for some fun treasure hunts. Go through all the brain games and have fun with them. Use the clicker. She may love the game of hot and cold:

 

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/brain-training/university/hot-and-cold/

 

Teach her to turn on a light:

 

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/video-archive/train-your-dog-to-turn-on-a-light/

 

Even when doing everything right, this stage can remain challenging. It's important to be consistent, patient and use positive training reminding yourself often that it's a stage and things should be getting better with continued and consistent training, mental stimulation and socialization. 

yes, we're definitely going to try that! 

 

Your pup at 5 months will be easily distracted, so it is important to be patient and proceed in stages. If you struggle at any time, it's a sign that your pup isn't ready for that level of distraction yet so you need to take a step back. Remind your pup to look at you for guidance and mark/reward her by tossing a kibble for looking up to your face as you are her mentor and ally, letting her know you're assessing the situation and will help guide her through it. 

 

Most of us dog trainers seem to agree that dogs bred specifically for hunting (from birds to rats), herding, or working (like Labs) are often off the charts with energy. These dogs can be entertaining to live with, but often require a lot of forethought to achieve the right balance of mental and physical exercise necessary while keeping energy levels down at manageable levels.

 

In puppy classes, trainers can help provide guidance on how to teach your pup to focus on you despite the distraction of the other pups. And when pups play, they should be taught to check -in with their owners frequently. This provides a good set-up for the pups learning to  be steady in many settings despite the distractions. 

 

Exercise and play in a controlled setting is important. Allowing off-the-charts hard play play with no structure or control and for prolonged periods of time can lead to high excitement and overly aroused states that can push dogs into an overactive stress response. On top of this, too much exercise increases stamina so the dogs need always more and more and this is why more and more behaviorists are seeing dogs who get crazy  amounts of exercise but remain still unruly. 

 

Finding that right balance between mental and physical exercise is the key. More mental stimulation and keeping physical exercise to a conditioning level, can lead to more relaxed and happy dogs. 

 

It's also important not falling into the mental trap of comparing a dog to another one you may have owned as like snowflakes dogs are all different. Even within a litter of pups you'll have wide temperament variances. Thoughts like that may cause feelings of sadness, anger, or frustration. 

 

It helps to try our best to separate past personal feelings from our pup’s behavior and understand that our pups do not “choose” to act hyper, and that it may be easier for our pups if we consistently show them through positive and happy training how we expect them to behave and repeat this over and over until they start understanding what we expect from them and how rewarding it is to behave appropriately. 

 

If worse comes to worse, you can always try taking her for a couple times a day to doggy daycare and see if that helps. Now I am not fond of many daycares where they are allowed to play all day hard and this leads to the overstimulated conditions discussed early.  Not to mention possibly mingling with unruly dogs. I am talking about some serious day cares run by dog trainers who monitor dogs, screen then and ensure dogs in their care are provided with exercise, but also training/ mental stimulation, but also the opportunity to relax and rest. This may give you some time off to relax too and see whether it helps make a difference in her behavior or not.  

This all helped a lot. Thank you. I feel myself bonding with her more and more and my patience is definitely better. She's also been much better the last three days or so. Only mildly hyper and quick to calm down (knock on wood). I am sure some of it is in response to my feeling genuinely less annoyed with her. We also got her a ball that has another ball inside and she's been playing with it a lot and also started stuffing her kong with a biscuit so it's harder to get out. That's all helping her. 

 

I hear you about not comparing her to our corgi and you're totally right, thank you for saying that. I think it's mostly upsetting to me that I thought I was mentally prepared for having her and then I feel like I've not been handling it well (too impatient, frustrated, not expecting how hard this would be). I thought I knew what I was getting into because I've done this before. However, I definitely need to focus on what is rather than what I expected it would be like. I know we'll be ok once we get past this puppy stage. 

That sounds like progress over all! I know, it's challenging knowing when they'll be able to keep it a little longer or not. I too at times think let's see if she can go a few extra minutes without having an accident, and then I regret that deeply once the pup has an accident and it could have been prevented. However, we need to test their bladder capacities every now and then, as that's part of potty training increasing the time they're taken out gradually. This allows us to gauge whether we can stretch the time they're taken out. Both my Rotties weren't fully potty trained until they were 8 months old. We consider fully potty trained when they haven't had any accidents for at least 8 weeks straight. 

Ok that's good to know it can take that long. We kept worrying they were abnormal accidents. 

Yes, there are so many factors to keep into consideration. As we get to know them better, we can figure out patterns of things that can cause them to become overstimulated and take steps to prevent them reaching that point. Try to carefully evaluate what is going on those mellower days. Yet, we may miss internal things like possible growth pains or sore gums from permanent teeth erupting. 

Pups needs to discover their off buttons and learn that it feels good to relax and fall asleep. A play pen may discourage her from feeling the urge to follow you everywhere so when you get up she may just turn her head your way and stay put. 

Also, you may find some of these tips helpful if she's on the clingy side, particularly the 'destination nowhere' exercise where you desensitize her to you getting up and walking around the house. Here is the link:

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/following-owners-around-house/

Thank you!! This is really helpful. 

Yeah, not paying attention to the dogs playing and bullying is a big pet peeve of mine. 

Puppies are super "sponges" up to 16 weeks, but even after that time they still learn a whole lot. Even old dogs can learn bad habits from other dogs. When my female Rottie Petra was 8 she suddenly learned to jump up during heeling after watching my father in laws dog do it a few times. It was sort of funny to watch, luckily it was quickly nipped in the bud. 

We are worried about her learning bad habits from my mother-in-law's puppy so this was definitely good to know that it's a real possibility. (they live out of town, I think we'll wait until she's older to visit). 

As she develops and reaches social maturity, she may become more aloof around dogs and take the fun police role, but this depends, if her Lab side prevails, she may likely enjoy being around other dogs. Then we may never predict how things turn out. 

Ok, that's really good to know - I will be mindful of this even when she's older. Hopefully she won't become the fun police haha! 

OK, if you were trying out leave it for the cats, she may have assumed you were asking her to leave the treat, hence why she kept turning around to look at the cats despite your "leave it." She actually did really well in leaving the treat, so kudos for training that so well. If you want to progress to leave it with the cats, you will have to train these separately so she's not confused about what exactly you are asking her to leave. 

Keep working on creating positive association with the cats. Put her on a leash and have a tub full of treats at hand. Whenever the cats move around make your smacking sound and when she looks at you, say yes! and feed your treat (those treats you are using, you can break each in about 10 pieces so to use less calories and make the most out of them). Keep limiting the cats to a certain part of the home so that your pup sees them up closer only when you are training.

Thank you for all those details on how to help her with the cats. We will work on it. We are super eager to have them all cohabitate together without gates. I think we're going to increase the "cat time" to 2-3 times a day to help things along. I ordered a remote truck to try that out and I'll keep looking for a good play pen. We started making her train a foot away from the gate and also target our hand (walk toward us and touch) and things where she has to walk back and forth past the gate with the cats there. Tonight she crept up to it and was able to ignore them so I left her there. I took this video for you to see - she's definitely doing better! After I stopped recording, Kora swatted her again and she jumped up to look at her but she listened to me when I called her name once and then she came back to me. 

 

Thanks again! 

[Adrienne Farricelli]

Wow-wee! She is so much more responsive in this video! Kitty is still persistent in swatting at her tail (LOL) and it's normal for Atari to react to that, but you were able to redirect her nicely! 

Two little tips that come to mind:

1) at around 11 seconds and then at 38 seconds, the "leave it" was said when she wasn't really doing anything demonstrating an intent to interact with the cats, so I would suggest using your "leave it" when you notice that she's about to approach or orient towards the cat so to stop her in her tracks and that way she knows  exactly what you are asking her to do.  For instance, at second 3, right when the cat swats at her bum, a well-time "leave it" followed by the treat could have prevented her from getting up and moving towards the gate area. It's still OK though because you were still able to redirect, but she may have gotten a bit too excited at that point to respond, but it's great she did!

Sure, we can still use "leave its" to remind them every now and then as we build duration, but it may be best to use those later on once the concept of "leave it" sinks in more.

2) you many find that more than saying " look at me," a smacking sound may give a bit quicker/ more reliable response. You can still use the look at me, but I have found that smacking sound works better because our voice is always changing so we offer more fluctuations, whereas a sound is less likely to have all the fluctuations.

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/brain-training/preschool/look-into-my-eyes/

You are progressing wonderfully! Great job Atari!

Happy training!

[CAITLIN FITZGERALD]

On 5/11/2022 at 9:35 AM, Adrienne Farricelli said:

Wow-wee! She is so much more responsive in this video! Kitty is still persistent in swatting at her tail (LOL) and it's normal for Atari to react to that, but you were able to redirect her nicely! 

Two little tips that come to mind:

1) at around 11 seconds and then at 38 seconds, the "leave it" was said when she wasn't really doing anything demonstrating an intent to interact with the cats, so I would suggest using your "leave it" when you notice that she's about to approach or orient towards the cat so to stop her in her tracks and that way she knows  exactly what you are asking her to do.  For instance, at second 3, right when the cat swats at her bum, a well-time "leave it" followed by the treat could have prevented her from getting up and moving towards the gate area. It's still OK though because you were still able to redirect, but she may have gotten a bit too excited at that point to respond, but it's great she did!

Sure, we can still use "leave its" to remind them every now and then as we build duration, but it may be best to use those later on once the concept of "leave it" sinks in more.

2) you many find that more than saying " look at me," a smacking sound may give a bit quicker/ more reliable response. You can still use the look at me, but I have found that smacking sound works better because our voice is always changing so we offer more fluctuations, whereas a sound is less likely to have all the fluctuations.

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/brain-training/preschool/look-into-my-eyes/

You are progressing wonderfully! Great job Atari!

Happy training!

Thank you! We'll try these things. 🙂

[Adrienne Farricelli]

Sure thing! Keep us posted!

[CAITLIN FITZGERALD]

Just thought I’d share this update as I’m proud of her.

So I suck at recording a video while using the truck remote so this isn’t a great video but as you can see she is now ignoring the truck and the kittens! 
 

On Thursday the 1 year old jumped the fence before I could stop him and she chased him up onto the cat tree though so we’re still a long ways from real cohabitation I think… it’s frustrating because I’m worried she’ll never ignore them but we’ll keep doing daily sessions. The cats are impatient for her to get there too and she really wants to be their friends she just can’t behave herself just yet. 

[Adrienne Farricelli]

Very nice! Atari is very responsive to the cues despite the distraction of the car! Great work there, don't forget to pat yourselves on the back too!

Now, asking a puppy with a herding heritage to totally ignore cats is a strong expectation. I mean it is doable, but mostly for sustained periods of time and always under close supervision just as you are working with the car.  Left to their own devices, pups want to play or chase/herd and we can't totally remove that drive because it's so hardwired, however we can manage and redirect. 

Moving forward, you can have Atari on leash and practice the same as you did with the car, but this time with one cat, but consider there is a big jump between a car and a cat so you need to progress slowly and add some intermediate steps such as:

• Adding some elements to the car that makes it appear 'fluffy' like a fleeting cat
• Practicing dragging a stuffed animal on a rope 
• Practicing with Atari on leash and one cat stationary
• Practicing with Atari on leash and one cat walking by at distance
• Practicing with Atari on leash with the cat running
• Practicing with Atari off leash but body blocking 
• Practicing with Atari off leash but body blocking very slightly
• Practicing with Atari off leash without body blacking

You may find it easier practicing first in areas away from where Atari spends most of the time as many dogs don't like cats entering their perceived territory (where they have their water bowls, beds, toys) so they may feel compelled to chase the cats away. 

The last exercises off leash are the ones that worry us the most. We may need some extra steps in between and precautions in place.  It can therefore help to have several plans in place just in case. For instance, a place for the cats to jump away where the pup cannot access, if a "leave it" is ignored and the pup start chasing, a good response to a recall with some high value foods tossed on the flood to stop the pup in the tracks and divert her, some plan to break up an eventual fight between dog and cat.

If there is any fear of the pup harming the cats or we feel the need of an extra layer of caution we can use a bite-proof muzzle (like a wire basket muzzle or a Jafco muzzle). I suggest conditioning puppies to muzzles in any case as it's easier when young and takes some time.  I suggest this training for all dogs. We  may need to use them at the vet's office or when we have to medicate.  Here's a guide on that:

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/video-archive/train-your-dog-to-wear-a-muzzle/

Muzzles are for temporary use and although they can help provide some peace of mind, it's important to consider that they cannot fix the underlying problem. On top of this, cats can cause significant damages to dogs too so we always need close supervision. 

 

[CAITLIN FITZGERALD]

Thank you so much! We've been doing these things and it's helping. I'll look into the muzzle too. I didn't know that they were used like this - I always assumed they were mean to use so that was eye opening. 

[CAITLIN FITZGERALD]

Here’s an update!  I don’t know what happened to our puppy but she’s been much easier lately and this cat training time was like shocking. Thanks Adrienne! 
 

 

[Adrienne Farricelli]

Yay! Atari is in a nice responsive state despite the cats being super close and the cats are eating and look comfortable too!  When her neck landed on kitty's tail and kitty turned around to check things, there was this second or two of eye contact between the two, but Atari softened up and redirected nicely and kitty was like ''Ok my tail is still intact, all is well, back to eating"! Keep up the great work!

[CAITLIN FITZGERALD]

Hey Adrienne!

 

Just wanted to share a final update on Atari and the cats! We’ve come so far. Thank you for all your help! 
 

by the way the little one is under the curtain but hard to see. They’re both there. 
 

 

[Adrienne Farricelli]

That's so awesome, kudos to you for a job well done! Thanks for posting the update.

Keep up the great work!. 

[CAITLIN FITZGERALD]

Hi Adrienne, 

So I guess not the last update for Atari after all... she's been doing really great with the kitties. We have been letting them out every night for about an hour and they walk around and she follows them and smells. They swat at her and sometimes hiss on occasion but for the most part, they just keep walking around her and even trying to play with her. She just follows them and smells them. She sometimes hits her threshold where she will sort of follow them quickly - not quite a chase but bordering on a chase and then we end the interactions. Most of the time though, she ends up sitting down or laying somewhere and they stare at each other calmly or she will even look away for a bit. Then they start walking around her again and she follows them more. They seem to be trying to get her to engaged though because no one sits still for long. We watch almost the whole thing but feel ok doing our chores as we prepare for the next day and just always staying close and within earshot. No one gets too intense and the cats are very comfortable. They walk with their tails straight up and body relaxed and can always escape over the gate if they get annoyed with her. Atari has her ears and tail up like she's excited but she doesn't express any sort of aggression or hunting stance and if they swat at her she does not react at all. If the cats hiss like they are getting annoyed, we end things. Each night seems to be better than the previous one and we can see that in the near future they will all hang out without being so excited. 

However, we have had three incidents where she has peed in the house now. She went almost 4 months without an accident (aside from occasional excitement peeing when she sees new people). The first two times it was right near the sliding door to the backyard and we did not see her do it. We had left the room for a moment and came back to the puddle both times. We figured maybe she had needed to go because she had not been outside in about 4 hours (should not be an issue though as she can go like 10 hours at night) and she's 9 months old now. We started taking her outside to pee before we let the cats out and that seemed to stop it. However, last night, we forgot and she did it again and this time in the living room. I was there this time. The little white cat was laying on the couch. Playfully swatting her with no claws. She was sniffing the cat with tail wagging and they were happy/relaxed. Then suddenly Atari took a step backward and peed.

I don't see any sign of aggression or stress from her. She loves the "kitty time" - she even sits at the door during the day sometimes and cries for me to let them out. I call her away and she stops. But I feel like she likes seeing them and they like it too. Could this be territorial somehow? Not sure if this is something to worry about and how to even fix it? The real goal is that the cats can hang out with her all the time and not just for an hour a day. Are we making a mistake by letting her smell them and follow them? We were doing the whole training thing while they walked around but we couldn't stop the cats from trying to play with her so we gave up and that's how we ended up where we are.... thanks for your time. 

[Adrienne Farricelli]

Hi there! I am glad to hear that Atari is keeping on doing so well with your kitties.

So I guess not the last update for Atari after all... she's been doing really great with the kitties. We have been letting them out every night for about an hour and they walk around and she follows them and smells. They swat at her and sometimes hiss on occasion but for the most part, they just keep walking around her and even trying to play with her. She just follows them and smells them. 

She sometimes hits her threshold where she will sort of follow them quickly - not quite a chase but bordering on a chase and then we end the interactions. Most of the time though, she ends up sitting down or laying somewhere and they stare at each other calmly or she will even look away for a bit.

Then they start walking around her again and she follows them more. They seem to be trying to get her to engaged though because no one sits still for long.

We watch almost the whole thing but feel ok doing our chores as we prepare for the next day and just always staying close and within earshot. No one gets too intense and the cats are very comfortable. They walk with their tails straight up and body relaxed and can always escape over the gate if they get annoyed with her.

Atari has her ears and tail up like she's excited but she doesn't express any sort of aggression or hunting stance and if they swat at her she does not react at all. If the cats hiss like they are getting annoyed, we end things.

Each night seems to be better than the previous one and we can see that in the near future they will all hang out without being so excited. 

It's good that your kitties are giving warning signals (without causing harm) when they feel your pup gets a bit out of line, and it seems like Atari is being overall respectful of these signals. Cats with an intent to harm may aim for the eyes and cause painful corneal scratches or worse. 

I am sure she gets her moments where her instinct to chase gets the best out of her, but it seems like you have it under control and your cats are feeling more and more comfortable around her-and if for some reason they have had enough, it's good that they have learned how to auto-distance themselves.

It also helps a lot that you are being so observant of their body language! Close supervision is always good so to step in if your cats are getting annoyed, and you are doing a great job in intervening quickly to ensure everyone's' emotional being is being considered. It's ideal if we can intervene so the cats don't constantly feel like they need to take the matters in their paws. 

However, we have had three incidents where she has peed in the house now. She went almost 4 months without an accident (aside from occasional excitement peeing when she sees new people).

Puppies are known for attaining enough muscle tone to hold their pee around the age of  5 to 6 months old, however, it's not unheard of for some puppies to still have accidents at 8 months or even up to a year. 

However, in general, experts seem to agree that a dog can be considered fully potty trained when he/she hasn't had any accidents for 6 to 8 consecutive weeks. 

Atari is 9 months now, and hasn't had accidents for 4 months, so that fits the bill as being fully potty trained. These accidents therefore should capture our attention and should be carefully evaluated. 

The first two times it was right near the sliding door to the backyard and we did not see her do it. We had left the room for a moment and came back to the puddle both times. We figured maybe she had needed to go because she had not been outside in about 4 hours (should not be an issue though as she can go like 10 hours at night) and she's 9 months old now.

Being that these accidents occurred by the sliding door may be indicative of some effort made to at least get the closest to the backyard as she could. Being that nobody was around, it could be that she did give some signals (whine, paw at the door, pacing but nobody was there to attend to them). This can happen. 

While dogs can hold their pee for 8-10 hours at night, things are different when awake. Indeed, several puppies as young at 12-16 weeks are capable of holding it in the night. Problems arise when puppies and young dogs are active. 

It could be she got too distracted being around the kitties to think about needing to potty, or maybe being active and playing caused her to drink an unusual volume of water, creating greater pressure than usual and urgency. 

We started taking her outside to pee before we let the cats out and that seemed to stop it. However, last night, we forgot and she did it again and this time in the living room. I was there this time. The little white cat was laying on the couch. Playfully swatting her with no claws. She was sniffing the cat with tail wagging and they were happy/relaxed. Then suddenly Atari took a step backward and peed. 

I don't see any sign of aggression or stress from her. She loves the "kitty time" - she even sits at the door during the day sometimes and cries for me to let them out. I call her away and she stops. But I feel like she likes seeing them and they like it too.

Being that Atari seemed relaxed and happy, I agree with you that this peeing doesn't sound likely to be due to stress. She has been around the cats for long enough to have accepted them by now, and unless there was some change lately (new move, different routines, fearful event, new baby) there shouldn't be reason to engage in stress peeing. 

Could this be territorial somehow? Not sure if this is something to worry about and how to even fix it? The real goal is that the cats can hang out with her all the time and not just for an hour a day.

In the case of territorial marking, we generally tend to see the following patterns:

-Sniffing prior to peeing

-Peeing on objects the dog may be protective of like sofa, beds, couches or certain areas considered the dog's "turf". 

-Revisiting the same spots to sniff and mark again

-Small urine volume compared to physiological peeing (not to be confused with an interrupted urine flow as in the case of a dog who notices us watching them if they have associated our presence with being scolded/seeing us get frustrated for peeing). 

Being that the first two accidents occurred by the sliding door letting to the yard, and that the third accident occurred quite suddenly, I am more prone to thinking that these are pee accidents, possibly triggered by her being distracted. 

A further convincing point, is the fact that it seems that taking her out before playing with cats has cut the number of these accidents, and that exact episode when she wasn't taken out prior to being allowed "kitty time" triggered an accident.  So I would suggest making it a routine and keeping on taking her out to potty before her allotted time schedule with the cats. 

However, just in case, it may be worthy giving her the benefit of doubt and making sure there's nothing going on medically. Female dogs can be prone to urinary tract infections due to their shorter urinary tracts and there can be other medical reasons for a housetrained young to have accidents. 

Are we making a mistake by letting her smell them and follow them? We were doing the whole training thing while they walked around but we couldn't stop the cats from trying to play with her so we gave up and that's how we ended up where we are.... thanks for your time. 

Dogs live in an olfactory world and use their noses to explore and learn many things about their surroundings. By just smelling they can gather a lot of info about many things. By smelling the cats it's  likely that Atari gets to know cool stuff like what they ate, how they are feeling and possibly many other things we don't know. 

As long as her following them doesn't turn into pestering them and ignoring possible "leave me alone" signs,  I don't see any big harm. It sounds like your cats are teasing/luring her to follow them around. Some cats many actually like being followed/chased as a form of play, but mostly when they have come to trust the dog enough.

For other cats being chased is perceived as the dog being hostile. Some others are fine with the dog, until he's chased, triggering them to get defensive, losing the initial trust they developed which took so much to build.

Things can get further complicated when one cat is fine with it, but another cat is not as the dog may feel compelled to chase both. There can be therefore a thin line between dog behaviors the cats may be fine with and others that are too much.   

I think on top of carefully monitoring, I would still every now and then intervene so to polish those nice responses you have so nicely trained such as leave its, recalls, targets etc. It's good to maintain these responses at a fluent level as a backup, even in dogs who have proven to us they can behave well around cats. They can come handy in a variety of circumstances so we want to prevent them from potentially weakening and extinguishing. I am sure you are already doing this, but just pointing it out for other readers (not sure why text turned red, sorry!)

Further general tips that come to mind for preventing future pee accidents:

-Close supervision is a must. Make sure to watch your dog carefully. Observe each move to prevent accidents in the home. The problem with dogs who soil indoors is that it can develop into a habit, so the earliest it's tackled, the better.

-Frequent Potty Trips

While dogs may be capable of holding it for long periods of time when sleeping, when they are active and playing, they need to go more often. Watch as well her getting thirsty and drinking a large amount of water at once as that may require further potty trips. Provide interval potty breaks to prevent accidents due to an overly full bladder. 

-Ensure Outdoor Elimination. In dogs who soil in the home, it cannot be emphasized enough the importance of regularly accompanying them outdoors to ensure they have successfully eliminated before being allowed back inside. Dogs who are sent out alone are often assumed to having gone potty, when they have not. Or they may have gone, but only partially, without fully emptying their bladder. 

Praise and Reward Outdoor Elimination . On top of ensuring successful elimination, accompanying them outdoors provides us with the opportunity to praise and reward them.  This helps emphasize that going outdoors is rewarding. However, care should be taken in praising and rewarding the dog immediately after elimination and not when the dog is heading back inside or doing something else. 

-Clean Up Messes Carefully.  Make sure to clean up messes with an enzymatic cleaner so to not leave any residual odors which can trigger successive episodes of urine marking in the area. Use enzyme-based products to ensure no odors linger. 

-Avoid showing any signs of frustration when your dog has an accident. This risks only making matters worse. A dog may start hiding to pee or and if the root cause of the peeing happens to be stress or anxiety or if your dog is prone to submissive urination, this approach risks exacerbating the problem. 

I hope this helps! Keep us posted on how things go!

Best,

Adrienne 

[CAITLIN FITZGERALD]

Hi Adrienne, 

Thank you, that is all so helpful and reassuring! We will build these things into our routine and keep working with her and the kitties. 🙂

[Adrienne Farricelli]

Sounds great! Keep us posted on how things go with Atari!

Happy training!