Shiloh.......the mounting issue......soooo not good.

[CherylHampton]

Hi! Been awhile😊Shiloh is growing and is a happy go lucky kind of pup, but He has developed one issue that concerns me a great deal. I can't remember if I addressed it before or not...seems like I may have but it hasn't been an issue again until recently. Here's my concern Shiloh has never attempted to mount another dog, but he's tried on several occasions now to do so while out playing with the kids. This simply can't happen he's a large dog and I can't have him jumping up on the kids or trying to take advantage while they're sitting down. When this has happened its always been during times of play i.e. he chases a ball runs with the kids etc..I'm wondering if he is just over excited or what? He's NEVER been aggressive in any way, and is always gentle when playing with the children otherwise or when they're petting him he loves kids,I can't be active with him like the young ones can so he gets pretty revved up when chasing  balls, frisbee etc. how do I correct this?.he's going to accidentally scratch or hurt one of them if he continues with this behavior. Thanks for your input as I'm really concerned about this.. Oh he's not around children on a daily basis pretty much just family gatherings  not sure if that's important or not.

[JMFS]

Oh, Shiloh!  I just love hearing about his life. 

Let me dig up the humping threads.  There are plenty, haha.  I do know that dogs will hump for play.  Usually it happens when their relationship is balanced and they'll trade humps.  Why they like this, I haven't a clue, but it's certainly normal behavior and there Are ways to prevent it.  I'm thinking proactive rather than reactive is going to be the key, but one moment, please, as I go forum delving.  :D

[JMFS]

I haven't read through them, but here they are, a mountain of mounting issues.  😆😆😆

https://braintraining4dogs.com/forum/topic/874-mounting-other-dogs/?do=findComment&comment=4364

https://braintraining4dogs.com/forum/topic/267-feeling-like-a-failure/#comment-1406

https://braintraining4dogs.com/forum/topic/685-labradors-humping-other-dogs/?do=findComment&comment=2989

https://braintraining4dogs.com/forum/topic/791-one-member-of-the-couple/?do=findComment&comment=3853

 

[Adrienne Farricelli]

Hi Cheryl, welcome back! Glad to hear Shiloh has turned to be such a loving happy-go-lucky pup!

I don't recall you mentioning this behavior before. I went through some old threads and found only that he loves meeting new people. Especially kids. 

I am sure you are concerned though about this behavior of wanting to mount while out playing with the kids.

How often does he roughly play with the kids?

How old are the kids?

Was Shiloh neutered? 

How old is he know? I assume he's about 18 months?

How long has he been engaging in this behavior? 

Is it a recently new behavior?

As I await your reply, please keep him away from the kids as we don't want anyone to get hurt! Also, we don't want him to keep rehearsing this behavior, as the more he does this, the more it establishes and risks getting more and more ingrained. 

[CherylHampton]

You're correct on his age very good. Yes he's been neutered since he was about 8 mos. old. His first time on this behavior was with my granddaughter last yr. She was 6 then. bless her heart she's short and Shiloh actually had a paw on each of her shoulders. No repeats until a few months back with my nephew and his friend, then again this past wknd. with my niece.  Except for my granddaughter he had been engaged in a lot of play and it bothers me not only for the kids but Shiloh simply adores them. They can be active with him in ways that I cant. He's so funny, he actually fielded baseball and chased my nephew tagged him with the ball then when back to start the process over.  He's NEVER EVER been aggressive with the kids or anyone for that matter, and when I witnessed what was happening I told him no! He stopped and no repeats for the rest of the day. Will this behavior escalate? I know some smaller dogs engage in this behavior it seems like their whole life and aren't especially picky about their "victims". All the kids are younger 6-11. My nephew and his friend are 11 but on the small side when it happened with them,  they had been playing football and the boys were on the ground wrestling around when Shiloh acted out.  Ive done some reading and if its true that this can  happen when the pup/dog gets overly excited, maybe I can have him take some time outs from play. Although when he got tired enough he just chllled on his on. when it happened the other day, that was the only time in the course of a long day.  Any advice you can give as ALWAYS is greatly appreciated. He was so down the day after everyone had to go home, he was missing the kids. This has been the only behavior that has really concerned me, his puppy training concerns were different.  Shiloh is a very social dog, and he isn't around the kids very often at all, maybe every few months,at best. Its going to be a challenge to address this and get it under control. Its happened three times which is three times too many, will he grow out of it eventually?

 

[JMFS]

Quote

I know some smaller dogs engage in this behavior it seems like their whole life and aren't especially picky about their "victims".

ROFLMAO!  So flipping accurate!  I can remember my amma's (grandma) dog, Schmitty, under the Thanksgiving table giving my best friend what for.  We got in trouble for giggling at the table (we were 13 . . . c'mooooon).  He would Not relent.  She would scoot him away and he'd come back with fervor.  Thank goodness my friend thought it was funny because I certainly would not have.  But because She thought it was funny, I was able to laugh, too.  I knew Zero about dog training back then.  Poor Schmitty.  He was a sweet and cute dog, but I had little to do with him after that.  I didn't want him getting any ideas!

For some reason I summoned a picture in my mind of body pillows being dragged around on ropes, or danced around, to entice Shiloh into the behavior with recalls to reward him for stopping.  I'm having a day, I think.  Friday Work Avoidance Syndrome.  I'm interested to read what Adrienne has to say.

Aw, Shiloh, I cherish your antics.  Please tell your human companion we need more stories about your foibles, adventures, and successes❣️

[Adrienne Farricelli]

Hi Cheryl, it's so odd, as I was waiting for your answers, I was close to 100 percent sure I posted here a long and thorough answer in the past 2 days trying to cover many basis and now it seems like it's gone! In any case, thank you for your extra details! Please see my thoughts/observations in non-bold. 

 When this has happened its always been during times of play i.e. he chases a ball runs with the kids etc..I'm wondering if he is just over excited or what?

We can see mounting happening for several reasons. Here are some:

-Seeking Interaction

In many cases,  a dogs' mounting may be a way of  seeking affiliation/ interaction or getting others to pay attention to them, explains board certified veterinary behaviorist. Dr. Overall. With children, dogs may be therefore trying to solicit play or they may have learned that they receive attention and interaction when they engage in the mounting behavior. 

-Mounting from Stress

Mounting kids can also be a way to release stress in situations that may be a tad bit overwhelming. Let's call is "anxious arousal." Pay attention therefore on whether the mounting behaviors starts in situations that trigger anxiety/stress.

Does the mounting happen when the kids are hyper? It can be that your pup isn't too comfortable when they are running around and the mounting is a displacement behavior.

Displacement behaviors are out of context behaviors that tend to occur dogs are experiencing conflicted emotions and they need to find an activity to engage in. The mounting when in proximity of kids may also occur when a dog is unsure of how to interact with them in certain contexts.

Some dogs seem overly enthusiastic in meeting/mingling with children, but there may be elements of stress at play. For instance, we have the "kiss to dismiss" which may seem a dog's way of manifesting affection to children- by licking them excessively- when in reality, it's a dog's way of asking for some distance.

-Release of Pent-Up Energy 

Veterinary behaviorist Betsy V. Beaver in her book: Canine Behavior, Insights and Answers, explains how sometimes, mounting behaviors in dogs may be an expression of surplus energy as seen in any energetic dog.  The mounting behavior manifests therefore in the same way as barking, pacing, or chewing may occur when the dog has too much pent-up energy and no other way to expend it. 

-Regulating play

Some dogs like to play the 'fun police' and will act as referees when certain types of play get too rough. They may get in between and try to stop the commotion. I can see this take place when you mention that he went to mount when "the boys were on the ground wrestling around. " The poster child of dogs regulating play are herding dogs. So this may be a possibility. 

-A Matter of Overstimulation

Some dogs get overstimulated when around kids and they use mounting as a coping mechanism. It's the dog's way of self regulating his/her arousal. 

-Feeling Tired and Cranky 

Some dogs mount when they get cranky and moody because they're overstimulated, yet tired and in dire need of some relaxation or a nap.

 Will this behavior escalate?  Its happened three times which is three times too many, will he grow out of it eventually?

Regardless of the underlying issue, we want to tackle mounting. I don't personally think dogs just outgrow it, several do, but I have seen dogs be obsessed about it. I think it can become habit-forming if not tackled and some dogs may get so determined that it may get out of hand and become their default way of interacting. Some professionals may close an eye sometimes when they do it to other dogs they know well and the other dogs don't seem to mind, but when directed to children/people, this needs tackled. 

So it's one of those behaviors were practice makes perfect and the more it's rehearsed, the more the dog may want to engage in it.

He's NEVER been aggressive in any way, and is always gentle when playing with the children otherwise or when they're petting him he loves kids,I can't be active with him like the young ones can so he gets pretty revved up when chasing  balls, frisbee etc. how do I correct this?.he's going to accidentally scratch or hurt one of them if he continues with this behavior. Thanks for your input as I'm really concerned about this.. Oh he's not around children on a daily basis pretty much just family gatherings  not sure if that's important or not.

How to correct this form of mounting? You may need to take a multi-faceted approach. Here are several tips.

- Identify the Exact Triggers

Often, dogs start mounting kids when kids engage in some specific type of activity. If your dog has a history of mounting kids therefore,  determine whether the behavior has occurred in response to a specific situation. Some dogs may chase kids when they are running and when they catch up with them, they will try to mount. Others take advantage of mounting when the kids are sitting on a chair or sitting on the floor. 

It sounds like you mentioned "When this has happened its always been during times of play i.e. he chases a ball runs with the kids etc" but earlier you also said " I can't have him jumping up on the kids or trying to take advantage while they're sitting down" so I assume it happens also when they're sitting down  like on the floor or on a chair. 

Things get easier with dogs who do the mounting only in certain contexts rather than being obsessed about it and trying to mount ALL OF THE TIME.  I know of some dogs whose goal is just to mount and they'll chase to mount and take advantage of mounting any every opportunity they get. It sounds like Shiloh does it occasionally, possibly when he's too overstimulated or the kids are playing too rough. So knowing when this happens gives us the power of taking steps to prevent it. 

 -Prevent Rehearsal of the Problem 

Once again, the more a dog gets to engage in the mounting behavior, the more likely he'll want to repeat the behavior. With time, mounting kids risks becoming habit-forming and may turn into your dog's default way of interacting with children. You do not want this to happen. The more ingrained the behavior becomes, the more difficult it will be to eradicate. It is therefore paramount preventing direct access to situations that trigger the behavior using management techniques. 

You can therefore keep Shiloh on leash when in presence of the kids and you know he may be more in "mounting mode." For instance,  indoors when they want to sit quietly to play a board game on the floor or as they sit to watch TV. If things seem to be getting too wild, it may also best to spare Shiloh from all that, and keep him in a quiet area to get some relief from all of that.  

Management will not resolve the problem, but at least it prevents it from worsening. Use management therefore until your Shiloh is better under control and trained and for those times you do not have time to train or when child play may be getting out of hand.

-Train Your Dog

The good news: most dogs are eager to "work for a salary" especially if you are able to provide a reward that is highly anticipated and that is 10 times more rewarding than engaging in the mounting behavior. In order to work though we need to always actively supervise and learn to recognize our dogs' triggers and earliest pre-mounting  behaviors (smacking lips, lifting paw up, a certain look of the face) and intervene super swiftly. 

You can therefore train Shiloh to respond fluently to a cue such as to come to you when called: https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/brain-training/obedience-101/recall/

a fluid response to the smacking sound: https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/the-airplane-game/the-smacking-sound/

but can also use your "leave it": https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/brain-training/obedience-101/take-leave-it/

If your "stop it' works, you can continue using that. My father in law was great in using his voice and learned well to recognize pre-humping behaviors in his collie. When his collie tried to give the slightest sign of wanting to mount one day poor Einstein, he stopped him flat in his tracks. I have a video of this, it's actually funny...will need to find it. 

You want to train initially in a room without distractions (away from children), and then work in the yard until you obtain an almost reflexive response. Then, you can practice with Shiloh on a long line (long leash used to train recalls) at a distance from the children always rewarding generously for rushing to you.

You may find it helpful to use a silent whistle for this type of training especially when outdoors and stick to a verbal or smacking sound when indoors. 

 Only once your dog has proven to you that he is under perfect/close to perfect control, you can keep him off leash, but you will always need to supervise him around children, as often, all it takes is one rehearsal, for the problem behavior to make a quick come-back.

Now, stopping a dog when playing with kids is a form of advanced training, sort of like calling dogs off from other dogs when playing in the dog park. It's advanced because of the high level of distraction and high arousal levels associated with play. 

Please note: if your dog still decides to mount despite being called off, he is either not ready for dealing with that level of distraction, not being rewarded quickly enough, or the reward is not perceived as good as compared to the self-reinforcing mounting. 

However, we need to keep safety in mind. Is it worth it risking that Shiloh may one day hurt a small child? Because if we are too late, it can happen. We also need to consider that, the kids are over your home only now and then, so this can be easily managed. Not saying he shouldn't interact, but that maybe it's best to skip some overstimulating types of games and opt for some calmer, structured ones where he is not engaging in "over-the-top" behaviors and is therefore better under control.

Also, if I recall well, sometimes in the past Shiloh was guarding a soccer ball from you. Now this, behavior may have been successfully extinguished, but it still popped up in his behavior repertoire at one time, so there are no guarantees this may not happen again. It can take just a split second for a child to be running towards a ball and him wanting to get the ball too for an incident to happen.

- Children Can Train Too!

I asked the ages of the children because they can be involved in training too. The older kids especially who can take directions. A handy cue is the sit and down which are incompatible with humping. You can have them carry some treats in their pockets and have them practice asking Shiloh to sit or lie down when he approaches them. This can keep his mind off the humping. 

Then, they can toss a treat the opposite way to reward him for complying. This provides an extra tier of safety if Shiloh for some reason doesn't listen to your cue to come when called. Once they toss the treat at a distance, they can move away and you can get a hold of your dog. Once you get a hold of Shiloh, remember to keep things positive feeding him treats as you move away otherwise he'll associate you with making all the fun end and may play hard to catch or resent getting grabbed by the collar. 

I know you like that Shiloh gets to get more exercise when around the kids, but we need to consider quality over quantity. Running after the kids and chasing balls can be too overstimulating and therefore lead to mounting so you may want to reduce that and engage him in more structured activities.

For instance, you can organize Round Robin games where you are all lined up and take turns calling Shiloh and then asking him for a sit and then then giving him a treat. This may help keep his mind engaged and not think about mounting. Make sure he gets breaks every now and then as a whole day around children can be too overstimulating for most dogs. 

-Ensure Your Dog Gets Enough Sleep

Make sure to find the right balance between Shiloh receiving sufficient exercise, training and mental stimulation and opportunities for relaxation, rest and restorative sleep. 

- Help Your Dog Cope With Arousal

Impulse control and frustration tolerance exercises can teach dogs how to better moderate their emotions. This won't magically solve behavior problems, but provides dogs with an extra skillset that can help them. https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/impulse-control-frustration-tolerance/

- Give it Time 

The behavior left untreated doesn't typically extinguish, and may even worsen over time. But if we address it, and teach alternate behaviors that are more reinforcing, it can gradually become more and more scarce. One advantage is that, mounting behaviors are more common in young dogs, and as dogs mature, are trained to better cope with their impulses and we start to set some boundaries, the issue can potentially extinguish over time.

Make Safety Top Priority

The safety of the children of course remains top priority. If Shiloh's mounting behavior persists or you are concerned about the safety of the children (they can get injured even unintentionally), please play it safe using management and/or consult with a dog behavior professional (like a board-certified veterinary behaviorist or Certified Applied Animal Behaviorist). 

I hope this helps!

Happy training!

Best,

Adrienne 

Disclaimer: behavior modification comes with risks. Articles, videos and general info found in the forums or course (or any online source) are not meant to replace in-person training/instruction. By using this course and forum, you are waiving any liability claims or other type of claims related to any dogs' behavior against you or others.

[Adrienne Farricelli]

1 hour ago, JMFS said:

ROFLMAO!  So flipping accurate!  I can remember my amma's (grandma) dog, Schmitty, under the Thanksgiving table giving my best friend what for.  We got in trouble for giggling at the table (we were 13 . . . c'mooooon).  He would Not relent.  She would scoot him away and he'd come back with fervor.  Thank goodness my friend thought it was funny because I certainly would not have.  But because She thought it was funny, I was able to laugh, too.  I knew Zero about dog training back then.  Poor Schmitty.  He was a sweet and cute dog, but I had little to do with him after that.  I didn't want him getting any ideas!

For some reason I summoned a picture in my mind of body pillows being dragged around on ropes, or danced around, to entice Shiloh into the behavior with recalls to reward him for stopping.  I'm having a day, I think.  Friday Work Avoidance Syndrome.  I'm interested to read what Adrienne has to say.

Aw, Shiloh, I cherish your antics.  Please tell your human companion we need more stories about your foibles, adventures, and successes❣️

Ha-ha! Laughing out loud to the idea of body pillows dragged around on ropes! I was imaging the movie Home Alone when Kevin was maneuvering multiple ropes with figures to make them appear real, but in this case acting as "humpees" for doggy humpers. 

Talking about small dogs, that cute as a button, fluffy female Pomeranian you may have seen in some of the demos, was actually fixated on wanting to hump my arm every time I was typing on the computer. 🤪

[CherylHampton]

Adienne, thanks for all the excellent advice! I will keep a very close eye on Shiloh and see if I can further pin down any more specific information that may be helpful, I noticed the advice about him getting enough sleep, and I know he gets plenty of rest and good sleep, so covered there. I watch watching him with my granddaughter who was playing with him yesterday, and sadly he reoffended.  I caught him before contact and issued an "off" command(he's familiar with that one well) he went immediately into a sit and was fine,  but I'm still uneasy with him. They had been playing together for a bit, and I really think its the case of him getting over stimulated so going to work hard on that and see where we are. Will keep you posted!!!

Thanks again

[Adrienne Farricelli]

I caught him before contact and issued an "off" command(he's familiar with that one well) he went immediately into a sit and was fine,  but I'm still uneasy with him. They had been playing together for a bit, and I really think its the case of him getting over stimulated so going to work hard on that and see where we are. Will keep you posted!!

Well, the good thing is that he listened despite the distraction/overstimulation. He needs to know that you are closely monitoring him like a hawk and that you won't keep eyes off of him even for a split second when around children and that have a zero mounting policy. I wouldn't allow close off-leash interactions yet until you his mind is less fixated on mounting.  

If you're uneasy, or need a break, you can tether him to you (-umbilical cord style,  basically leash clipped to your belt or I make a loop with the leash putting the leash through its handle and then slip it over so it's around my waist, holding on to it if it's very loose) when you have your grandkids over so that he can't make mistakes since he's right next to you and if he tries to move towards them, you can use your body to quickly move him away. While tethered to you, you can cue desired behaviors like sits and downs and reinforce those.

Definitely watch for overstimulation. Do you recall what your granddaughter was doing at the moment that prompted him to want to mount? In what type of "play" were they engaging? If you know what triggers it, you're one step ahead and can take steps from preventing it.