Fast eater with feeding bowl envy

[B HARPERINK]

Hi all! I have a bit of an odd problem with our pup Knoet, a 7 month-ish old Labrador/Husky/Kangal/Swiss Shepherd mix, and I'm hoping someone can offer some advice!

When Knoet just came to us she had food envy, which was fine because we expected it (she came from a rather large litter that was fed at the same time, with a long line of kibbles on the floor), and we 'fixed' this by getting a slow feeder bowl. Every so often we'd come near it and add some more kibbles or give her a treat, and that worked wonders for the food envy. However...

Ever since she's gotten her big girl teeth, she's started to basically eat the slow feeder bowl with it. It's a plastic bowl, as seems to be the case with all slow feeder bowls (that I could find anyway), and she'll chomp bits of the edges after she's finished with her kibbles. I can't describe it in any way other than that she has feeding bowl envy. If she's eating, everything is fine, and I could even take the bowl away (though I make a point of it not to, since she's right to think that's her food), but once it's empty she'll start guarding the bowl like crazy.

What I do now is I try to distract her, for example with another toy or some treats, and then I take it away, but that's not going great. I've also tried trading for high quality treats, but I don't think anything trumps the bowl in her mind. On top of that I'm starting to notice that she's becoming more guarded with other toys too, and I'm pretty convinced that it's connected because she mostly does that right after dinner too. If I'll try to touch her snake (a toy that you can put some treats into) in the afternoon, for example, it's fine, but if I do so after dinner she'll lay her ears flat against her head. 

I don't want to keep taking her bowl away from her, but I can't exactly let her eat it either (it's non-toxic plastic, but still). So, does anyone have any tips for a) food bowl envy, or b) getting a dog to eat slower without a slow feeder bowl? Either would solve my problem, hopefully!

[Adrienne Farricelli]

Hi there, welcome to the forums!

Just posting a super sonic fast response and will post more detailed info in a little bit.

There are metal slow feeders, I just recently purchased one for a dog who was gulping food down like there is no tomorrows. If you go on Amazon and write "metal bowl slow feeder" you'll find many makes and models. Most dogs don't like to chew hard cold metal, which is also why they make metal leashes for dogs who bite the leash. 

A few questions:

1) what do you mean when you state 'it's not going great" with the giving toys/treats when you take the food bowl away? Does she eat the treats and try to go right back to the bowl? Is she reluctant to leave the bowl? Please provide extra details. 

2) Have you ever mentioned, her ravenous appetite to the vet?

3) Does she also eat other non-food items given the opportunity (don't try feeding her odd things of course, just post her history of eating non-food things around the house, in the yard, on walks). 

Labradors are known to have stomach without bottoms, so maybe that's also another component on top of her past history with her littermate competition.

[JMFS]

This brought to mind another pup.  We haven't heard back from her so I'm hoping that means the solutions contained within this post helped.

The empty bowl brought me back to desensitization training with Momo.  The trainer had me work with him with an empty bowl first.  In this case, if Knoet is not protective of any other bowl you could use a different bowl to start.  She basically had me make a positive association for Momo with the bowl so that I could touch it whenever I needed, full or empty.

I know that's not super informative.  I don't want to take you through the whole exercise we did without knowing whether this is a "this is my bowl, my only bowl, the one bowl, the best bowl," or if it's a "any bowl is mine mine mine" kind of situation.  Each would have its own approach.  However, I can tell you that it's absolutely possible to get Knoet past this.  :)

[B HARPERINK]

@Adrienne Farricelli Hi, thanks for the quick response! 

To answer your questions: 

2 hours ago, Adrienne Farricelli said:

1) what do you mean when you state 'it's not going great" with the giving toys/treats when you take the food bowl away? Does she eat the treats and try to go right back to the bowl? Is she reluctant to leave the bowl? Please provide extra details. 

She won't leave the bowl for just a treat, and if I approach her with the treat she'll eat it but very reluctantly. She will leave the bowl if I take another toy and put some treats in it, but she'll make sure to also keep the bowl within her eyesight and will run for the bowl if I approach it too obviously. Basically what I do now is I fill the snake (a treat toy) and put it some distance away from the bowl, and once she's somewhat engrossed by the snake I'll sneak to the bowl and hide it behind my back so that she doesn't see me have it. It works about half of the time. 

2 hours ago, Adrienne Farricelli said:

2) Have you ever mentioned, her ravenous appetite to the vet?

I have a while back (when we were getting an injection to make her throw up actually, because she'd managed to reach a sausage wrapper before I could stop her 😅), and he basically said the same thing you're mentioning right now: labradors will eat. But, to also answer your third question, she usually does know the difference between edible and non-edible. She'll put a rock in her mouth occasionally, but when she realizes she can't eat it she'll spit it back out. The sausage wrapper was an isolated incident, and I image that was because it smelled really good. 

We did use another metal bowl for a while (not a slow feeder, just a regular one), but that was only for a short while so she didn't have time to build a true 'connection' to it. She did also treat it as a toy, which is kind of like what she's doing to her slow feeder, but it hadn't become as obsessive (yet). On the other hand, I don't mind her being a bit obsessed about her bowl if she can't eat it, so I'm definitely going to check those metal slow feeders out. 

[B HARPERINK]

@JMFS thank you for responding! 🙂

28 minutes ago, JMFS said:

I know that's not super informative.  I don't want to take you through the whole exercise we did without knowing whether this is a "this is my bowl, my only bowl, the one bowl, the best bowl," or if it's a "any bowl is mine mine mine" kind of situation.

Whenever we get another slow feeder (which is often, seeing as they're getting destroyed rather rapidly now that her adult teeth are fully out 😉) it's the same thing all over again, but we did try with a regular metal bowl and while she toyed with that one too she seemed a little less 'obsessed' with it. Then again, we didn't have to take that one away all the time because she couldn't eat it, so I think part of why that was easier is because she wasn't as scared of us taking it. 

I do still have that metal bowl, so training with that one might be a good start! 😁

[Adrienne Farricelli]

Thank you for the extra details, very helpful! Please see my observations under your quotes. 

When Knoet just came to us she had food envy, which was fine because we expected it (she came from a rather large litter that was fed at the same time, with a long line of kibbles on the floor

This is the classical cliche' of  "we wished the breeder knew better" where pups are put into situations that encourage competitiveness such as feeding a large litter of puppies with one single bowl or not enough food. 

Here's the thing, during mealtime among large litters of pups, there are two potential problems: puppies pushing other pups out of the way to steal their food and pups being pushed out of the way to have their food stolen. With limited supply and overcrowding, pups risk starting to eat fast, pushing other pups away, stealing food and displaying signs of resource guarding.

Providing more food bowls than the number of puppies and providing more food than the pups can eat is a strategy that can help prevent early issues and helps teach pups polite eating habits that can transfer over to when the pups are sent to their new homes and are fed from their own bowls. Supervision by the breeder during feeding times is therefore paramount so to prevent these mishaps.

We 'fixed' this by getting a slow feeder bowl. Every so often we'd come near it and add some more kibbles or give her a treat, and that worked wonders for the food envy. However...

That's wonderful, I am happy to hear you have used this approach! There is so much negative info on how to tackle this with methods that are wrong, wrong, wrong and even risky such as sticking hands in the food bowl, petting dogs while eating, or purposely taking their food bowls away just to "make a point." 

I always love to share, veterinary behaviorist Dr. Albrights quote:

"We should be advising clients against poking and prodding a dog while eating. It may help to tell clients that messing with a dog’s food bowl when he is trying to eat is like somebody messing with your plate or petting your head when you are trying to eat dinner. Nobody likes that. However, you may be more tolerant, maybe even look forward to the person approaching if you know that the person was going to give you a small bowl of Ben & Jerry’s Chocolate Therapy ice cream every time approached."

This is the essence of how these issues should be tackled.  When we have dogs who resource guard (the technical term for dogs who act protective of their food bowls, sleeping areas or toys and tense up when we approach), there is often an underlying issue of trust issues. 

The dog basically feels defensive and perceives us as if we are "trying to steal their food." By adding a tasty addition you are therefore giving the message of "I am not approaching to take something away, but to make a tasty addition, I am a provider and not a robber." After several reps, dogs learn to relax when we start approaching. 

The goal is obtaining what is known as a positive conditioned emotional response (+CER) where the dog looks forward to us walking by rather than dreading it. You can read more about this here: https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/conditioned-emotional-response-cer/

Ever since she's gotten her big girl teeth, she's started to basically eat the slow feeder bowl with it. It's a plastic bowl, as seems to be the case with all slow feeder bowls (that I could find anyway), and she'll chomp bits of the edges after she's finished with her kibbles. I can't describe it in any way other than that she has feeding bowl envy. If she's eating, everything is fine, and I could even take the bowl away (though I make a point of it not to, since she's right to think that's her food), but once it's empty she'll start guarding the bowl like crazy.

I suspect that what happens here is that the plastic bowl is good in absorbing the smell of dog food and dogs come to associate it with the food. It makes sense since many of our plastic storage containers still retain odors despite being washed. 

Most likely the same reason why dogs also eat the absorbent pad from a package of raw meat after eating the meat or eat plastic cheese wrappers after eating the cheese.

A while back, a dog I boarded ended up pooping part of a plastic bag. When I called the owner about the odd finding he told me that his dog managed to steal a bag of fish and ate the plastic bag after ingesting the fish! 

What I do now is I try to distract her, for example with another toy or some treats, and then I take it away, but that's not going great. She won't leave the bowl for just a treat, and if I approach her with the treat she'll eat it but very reluctantly.  I've also tried trading for high quality treats, but I don't think anything trumps the bowl in her mind.

She will leave the bowl if I take another toy and put some treats in it, but she'll make sure to also keep the bowl within her eyesight and will run for the bowl if I approach it too obviously.

It sounds like the bowl is perceived as much more valuable than the treat. It could be because the bowl is more long-lasting and offers more engagement, and therefore, a single treat does poorly in comparison in her hierarchy of valuables. 

Another toy may not work well because it has not retained any scent from food.

You will need to be extra careful in giving certain toys that you fill with treats if she's a strong, determined chewer as she may eventually try to ingest those too.  On top of that, you risk just moving her obsessing from one object of interest to another, where she'll leave the bowl, but then she won't like you near her toy, and you may struggle if you need to remove that too should she start chewing too aggressively on that. 

 Basically what I do now is I fill the snake (a treat toy) and put it some distance away from the bowl, and once she's somewhat engrossed by the snake I'll sneak to the bowl and hide it behind my back so that she doesn't see me have it. It works about half of the time.

Sound like a good plan, but I worry if she'll try to eat the snake eventually or even start to guard that should you one day have to walk by her or forget she's there with it. 

You mention it works about half of the time, so I imagine she is either reluctant to leave the bowl or leaves it, but keeps a watchful eye on it as she has grasped through associative learning that "getting the snake= you removing the bowl."

On top of that I'm starting to notice that she's becoming more guarded with other toys too, and I'm pretty convinced that it's connected because she mostly does that right after dinner too. If I'll try to touch her snake (a toy that you can put some treats into) in the afternoon, for example, it's fine, but if I do so after dinner she'll lay her ears flat against her head.

This is interesting-how the behavior is carrying over.  

I don't want to keep taking her bowl away from her, but I can't exactly let her eat it either (it's non-toxic plastic, but still). So, does anyone have any tips for a) food bowl envy, or b) getting a dog to eat slower without a slow feeder bowl? Either would solve my problem, hopefully!

Yes, even if plastic is non toxic, we need to tread carefully because it can cause bowel obstruction or tears if large or sharp pieces pass through. 

So here are a couple of options:

-Use a metal slow feeding bowl as mentioned earlier. However, just because it's hard to chew and your dog may seem disinterested in it, don't just assume it's OK and remove it from him. He may still retain the instinct to guard.  If you need to remove a bowl, opt for the safest and least minimally aversive option you can find, I will be sharing may favorite method for this in the next paragraphs. 

-Another option is feeding on the floor with no bowl (dogs don't mind, food bowls were created more for humans so to keep their food neatly in place and avoid odors or attracting bugs). However, you never know, he may try to guard the floor area so something to keep in mind, and a dog I recently boarded even managed to chew ceramic tiles!

-You can try scattering the kibble in a treasure hunt out in the yard. I wouldn't do it indoors in case he may develop a liking of chewing anything that smells like kibble.  https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/brain-training/elementary/the-treasure-hunt/

Now, we want to keep safety in mind because dogs who guard items can bite if they feel threatened enough and we need to do our best to communicate to our dogs that we aren't a threat to them. 

So we need to think a bit like our dogs and determine what from their perspective is considered higher value than the bowl so to make a fair "swap" without any resentment, if we still want to use bowls.  

In this case, we'll try to find something that is long-lasting (but not too much that we may have to remove it), provides engagement and can be consumed in one sitting so to add some "closure' where the dog eats it and that's it versus hovering over an item for a long time and worrying we'll be removing it.  Of course, during this time the dog needs to be left alone and not bothered. 

One of my favorite (and safest) strategies with guarders when they get a hold of something that I need to remove, is to toss a long-lasting chew (like a bully stick) past a door, and then, once the dog is past the door, eager to get the chew, I will close the door (so that I have a safety feature between me and the dog should the dog decide to make a comeback) and remove the food bowl (or whatever else the dog is guarding/obsessing about) putting it away. 

Even with this strategy though there can be risks. There is really nothing totally *safe.* For instance, this strategy won't work if the dog in question is the "aggressive" type who will try to steal the item you are trying to swap and bites in doing so, or in the case that you must walk past the food bowl the dog is guarding to get to the door area to toss the chew. There are also risks of dogs who won't eat the long lasting chew provided but will guard it and then you're stuck with another problem. 

Preventing rehearsal of problematic behaviors is important with resource guarders. We don't want them to practice the resource guarding behavior over and over because the more it is practiced, the more it becomes ingrained. Not to mention, it creates a cycle of stress. Management is therefore important. That entails using strategies that don't evoke guarding behaviors or at least keep them at a minimum. For instance, here are a few examples:

-Not walking nearby when the dog is eating or really "into" a toy or chew. 

-Feeding dogs in a crate away from high-activity areas of the home if they are nervous 

-Not giving bones if they cause dogs to stare at the bone and guard it or show signs of guarding 

-Keeping children and other pets away from dogs who guard

Management prevents dogs from rehearsing problematic behaviors, reduces the dog's stress levels and keeps us safer. You may wonder though how these cases are tackled in a more proactive approach. 

In behavior modification, resource guarding is often tackled using desensitization and counterconditioning. Each behavior professional may use their own techniques, and every case may need an individualized approach. 

Desensitization: this is is a behavior modification procedure that entails systematic, gradual  exposure  (baby steps) to stimuli or situations perceived as aversive or unpleasant. You can read more about this here:

 https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/desensitization/

 In a dog who resource guards an empty food bowl, the owner moving close to the food bowl is perceived as an aversive event. Standing by, walking by, looking at the dog, talking to the dog or approaching the bowl can give the impression to the dog that we are interested and trying to steal the food. Doing all these things are a big no-no for a good desensitization program. 

Desensitization involves taking small steps. If for example, a person is terrified of spiders, he or she will be emotionally overwhelmed when a spider crawls on the arm and the physiological response may include a racing heart, increased breathing and sweating. A systematic desensitization procedure in such a case may entail having the person initially look at pictures of spiders over and over until the person no longer emotionally reacts to them, then criteria is raised, and the person may watch videos of spiders and then progress to viewing a live spider from a distance.

A good desensitization program therefore aims in taking baby steps and keeping the dog comfortable and not stressed, which often means starting work with distance, always ensuring that dog is not over threshold. If a dog reacts, (like growls, gives a stare or pulls the ears back) that's a sign that we may have progressed too fast and need to take a few steps back in the process. You can read more about threshold levels here:

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/threshold-levels/

On top of using desensitization, important is too also add counterconditioning. You can read more about counterconditioning here:

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/counterconditioning/

In a dog who resource guards food, this would mean using baby steps while also creating positive associations. A dog who guards food is a dog who lacks trust, he fears that his food will be taken away. These dogs need to eat in a quiet area that is as stress-free as possible. Reaching for the food bowl, standing next to him makes him feel uneasy and confirms his biggest fear: that we are trying to take things away, BUT what happens if instead of giving wrongly interpreted signals, we start adding goodies instead? In that case, we can aim to get our pups thinking: "Wow, not only my owner is no longer trying to take my food away, but every time he walks by, he is adding to it!"

Initial behavior modification for dogs who resource guard food may therefore start with tossing goodies from a distance while the dog is eating. This gives them distance that makes them feel safe that typically doesn't cause a reaction from them. Repeated often enough at a pup's comfort level, as mentioned we aim to attain what's known as "positive conditioned emotional response." This is likely something you may have attained already when she used to guard her food. 

You can read some general information about resource guarding here:

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/overprotective-food/

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/overprotective-of-toys/

Some in depth general discussions on resource guarding:

And as always make safety top priority. Work along a behavior professional for  in-person guidance, safety and correct implementation of behavior modification such as a dog trainer specializing in resource guarding using force-free behavior modification, a board-certified veterinary behaviorist (DACVB) or certified applied animal behaviorist (CAAB). 

Disclaimer: behavior modification comes with risks. If your dog shows signs of potential aggression (lunging, barking, growling, snapping) for safety, please consult with a dog behavior professional who uses force-free behavior modification techniques for direct in-person guidance. Articles, videos and general info found in the forums or course are not meant to replace in-person training/instruction. By using this course and forum, you are waiving any liability claims or other type of claims related to your dog's behavior as against you.

[B HARPERINK]

@Adrienne Farricelli thank you so much for the insights! 

I think you've got it spot on (which is not a surprise, but still, I'm really happy about that!). 

7 hours ago, Adrienne Farricelli said:

-Not giving bones if they cause dogs to stare at the bone and guard it or show signs of guarding 

It's interesting that you mention this, because we have had one instance where she tried to swallow the thing whole when I approached, so she indeed doesn't get any bones anymore. I do give her natural dental sticks and the occasional piece of beef lung or chicken leg, but she can only have one 'with me', i.e. I sit next to her while she eats it, and when she's chewed it down to a dangerously small part I'll break it into smaller bits right before her nose which she then gets to chew. That doesn't seem to trigger any negative behavior whatsoever. She's practically prancing as soon as I open the kitchen cabinet where I keep them, and her body language is much more relaxed overall. She doesn't show any signs of minding it when I'm taking it, and she won't try to take it from me. Far as I can see there are no signs guarding behavior when I'm there the whole time and show her where the food is non-stop. I think she's just used to it with the dental sticks, but I'll take it that's a good sign, because if she can get used to it with those we can work up to a point where she's completely comfortable with the bowl too. 

I'm also definitely going to try the metal slow feeder. I'm always in the room when she's eating or playing anyway, so I'll make sure to keep an eye on her - but from a distance. I have actually already read up a bit about desensitization on this platform because I wanted her to get more comfortable with her harness, and she responded great to that, so I'm confident we can make it work with this too! 

Thanks again for the in-depth response and the many additional resources. 😁

[Adrienne Farricelli]

It's interesting that you mention this, because we have had one instance where she tried to swallow the thing whole when I approached, so she indeed doesn't get any bones anymore.

That must have been scary! We see that with some resource guarders who are worried that we may take the resource away, so they'll want to gulp it down fast so they don't have to worry. 

I do give her natural dental sticks and the occasional piece of beef lung or chicken leg, but she can only have one 'with me', i.e. I sit next to her while she eats it, and when she's chewed it down to a dangerously small part I'll break it into smaller bits right before her nose which she then gets to chew. That doesn't seem to trigger any negative behavior whatsoever. She's practically prancing as soon as I open the kitchen cabinet where I keep them, and her body language is much more relaxed overall. She doesn't show any signs of minding it when I'm taking it, and she won't try to take it from me.

Far as I can see there are no signs guarding behavior when I'm there the whole time and show her where the food is non-stop. I think she's just used to it with the dental sticks, but I'll take it that's a good sign, because if she can get used to it with those we can work up to a point where she's completely comfortable with the bowl too. 

That sounds good! Your cooperation in this case is likely helping her understand that your intent is not to take away. And the fact that that very last small piece, you don't remove it, but rather make into some safer chewable pieces to give to her confirms to her that you don't mean to take it away. Many dogs also like it when we hold their chews as they get to chew it from the right angle.

One of the most endearing moments for me is when a dog with a tendency to guard food, learns to trust enough to bring me their food puzzle with some food they are struggling to get out, and place it in my lap and look at me, with anticipation. When I remove the food for them, they look so happy and I feel honored for being entrusted to that level!

I'm also definitely going to try the metal slow feeder. I'm always in the room when she's eating or playing anyway, so I'll make sure to keep an eye on her - but from a distance. I have actually already read up a bit about desensitization on this platform because I wanted her to get more comfortable with her harness, and she responded great to that, so I'm confident we can make it work with this too! 

Thanks again for the in-depth response and the many additional resources. 😁

You are very welcome! Great to hear you have helped your dog with the harness through desensitization, that's awesome news! Keep us posted on how things go, happy training!

Best,

Adrienne