Excitement peeing

[H MORRIS]

Thanks to a lot of help from you, Adrienne, training with our very excitable 2 year old is progressing well. We regularly do the brain training and other stuff, determined to fix his problems. One area we are struggling with is his excitable greetings where he squirts out a bit of pee. We try to meet people outdoors and have worked very hard on trying to get him to sit by me and rewarding him for not jumping up until the person gets close enough to pet him calmly. Of course the lock down didn't help. But we're getting little progress. He's fine with my wife and I in the mornings, just wagging his tail and rolling over. But when my sister stayed recently he's over threshold waiting for her to come down in the morning. Barking constantly at the sound of her moving around, and trembling as she came down the stairs. We had to take him outside to meet her on the patio each day. It's the same when other people come or when he meets the neighbours on our driveway. It's not much pee but enough to need him outside. Strangely if he meets strangers away from the house, we don't get that problem, he just wags his tails and rolls over. Any help appreciated.

[Adrienne Farricelli]

Hi there!

Welcome back! Glad to hear things are progressing nicely, keep up the great work!

You are on the right track in letting him meet outdoors, I think though you can tweak things a bit with trying to bypass asking the sit for now, and just letting him go on a little fun treasure hunt to keep his mind and body busy in something else.

Usually, I am OK with asking a sit, but in this case, it sounds like he may be struggling. I assume that what may be happening is that, is one of 3 things:

1) he may be too over threshold to be able to sit

2) he may do the sit for a second but then right afterward he may go into excited greeting mode and pees

3) he may pee while he is sitting

So letting him go on a little treasure hunt by tossing goodies on the ground for him to collect can help accomplish these things:

1) keep him focused on doing something else

2) lower his threshold

3) create positive associations with having guests over (sometimes overly excited behavior has an element of anxiety).

You would therefore carry treats (or even his kibble if reinforcing enough) in your pocket or treat bag and toss them around when guests are over telling your dog to "go find them." Keep him busy long enough to dissipate the excitement. Only once he proves to be calmer, over several rehearsals, and there's no more peeing for some time,  then, we can try to introduce a sit (or down) where the treat is then tossed to reward the sitting and you can then progress to having him going back and forth, sitting and you tossing treats, over and over and having the guests take turns in tossing the treats too in a "treat-retreat fashion" as described here:

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/treat-retreat-game/

It also helps having guests ignore him initially and keeping greetings low key. 

More about excitement urination:

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/urinating-when-excited/

On top of excitement urination, there may also be submissive urination, general urine marking and anxiety marking, which may require a slightly different approach:

Submissive urination is covered here:

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/submissive-urination/

Urine marking, we are likely to see it in other contexts and dogs will typically sniff before marking

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/urine-marking/

With anxiety marking, we see it take place in cases of anxiety:

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/anxiety-peeing/

In regards to your dog's reaction to your sister, you may need to take a more gradual approach, although I realize this may not be easy if she's coming over only every now and then and some things are inevitable (like her making sounds upstairs) so you may need to manage more than anything (like taking him on walks prior to your sister getting up and walking down the stairs to prevent all anxious waiting, watching her come downstairs). 

If you want to work on this, you'll need to take the gradual, step-by-step approach using desensitization and counterconditioning methods as explained here:

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/dog-barking-someone-enters-room/

helping overcome anxiety over sounds (your sister making noises)

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/fear-noises/

 

[H MORRIS]

Again, that's fantastic advice Adrienne. We'll work at the treat retreat in the hope he'll be less over aroused when people come. I understand it's more for fearful dogs, rather than over aroused dogs who are desperate to meet the guest excitedly, but it'll probably apply just as well. The sit and wait method we've tried isn't really working and seems to get him more wound out to bursting with anticipation, even though he tries very hard to sit and wait. We've had him at the vets and there's no physical problem. In fact he was toilet trained really early on and we never have any accidents, other than this. And it's only tiny amounts that leak during the excitement, he doesn't cock his leg or squat at all, in fact you wouldn't know it's happened but for a few drops on the floor. He does pee a lot on walks, though not so much locally on walks he knows these days. But go somewhere new and he scent marks all the time, which clearly shows anxiety. Yet he loves going out in the car to new places.

Incidentally he's coming on really well with your brain training games. He can do the jazz up and then sit game in 10 s and after a lot of work he has door manners every time we touch a door handle even if he takes a few seconds to process it. Other more difficult ones are still work in progress. Most of his problems are excitement mixed with some anxiety and some fear and we've overcome so many of his issues. The main ones left being wild greeting and peeing, and arousal barking for noises and when we have guests (particularly children). We had a BBQ for family recently and he played with the little children beautifully, not knocking them over and letting them take things from his mouth, but when people stopped to sit down he barked continually, which made things very stressful. I had to take him out for a walk to calm him down and let somebody else take over the cooking, but returning he was much the same. We're working so hard to fix him, we just wish we could tell him to calm down. Lol.

Thanks again for really helping us.

[Adrienne Farricelli]

Again, that's fantastic advice Adrienne. We'll work at the treat retreat in the hope he'll be less over aroused when people come. I understand it's more for fearful dogs, rather than over aroused dogs who are desperate to meet the guest excitedly, but it'll probably apply just as well.

You're very welcome! Many aroused behaviors around people have an element of anxiety and stress into play. It's called the 'fool around" response and categorized along with fight and flight. Since you mentioned that he struggled as well with your sister, I feel that there's some social anxiety at play going on here. 

The sit and wait method we've tried isn't really working and seems to get him more wound out to bursting with anticipation, even though he tries very hard to sit and wait.

Yes, it can be a real struggle for dogs who are anxious or over excited to stay still. That's why I prefer to introduce activities that allow movement until the dog is a bit calmer around situations. On the plus side, I like to use sit/stays for recalls. Your dog gets a double whammy of rewards this way: release from the sit/stay and then praise + several pieces of treats tossed on the ground upon reaching you. That "anticipation burst" you mention allows for a flashy, enthusiastic recall which is what I look for. 

We've had him at the vets and there's no physical problem. In fact he was toilet trained really early on and we never have any accidents, other than this. And it's only tiny amounts that leak during the excitement, he doesn't cock his leg or squat at all, in fact you wouldn't know it's happened but for a few drops on the floor.

OK, then that does sound like excitement urination, although there may be some submissive/appeasement urination also contributing since you mention his style of greeting consists of rolling over. We this this roll over in soft, sensible dogs who want to show they mean no harm, and present the inguinal area as an appeasement gesture. It's reminiscent of back in the days when they were pups and presented their inguinal area for their mother to clean them up. 

He does pee a lot on walks, though not so much locally on walks he knows these days. But go somewhere new and he scent marks all the time, which clearly shows anxiety. Yet he loves going out in the car to new places.

This sounds like classical urine marking. 

Incidentally he's coming on really well with your brain training games. He can do the jazz up and then sit game in 10 s and after a lot of work he has door manners every time we touch a door handle even if he takes a few seconds to process it. Other more difficult ones are still work in progress. 

Kudos to you for training him these fun games! Jazz up and open sesame door handle games are great for impulse control.  Keep up the great work!

Most of his problems are excitement mixed with some anxiety and some fear and we've overcome so many of his issues. The main ones left being wild greeting and peeing, and arousal barking for noises and when we have guests (particularly children).

We had a BBQ for family recently and he played with the little children beautifully, not knocking them over and letting them take things from his mouth, but when people stopped to sit down he barked continually, which made things very stressful. I had to take him out for a walk to calm him down and let somebody else take over the cooking, but returning he was much the same. We're working so hard to fix him, we just wish we could tell him to calm down. Lol. Thanks again for really helping us.

Excitement/anxiety can benefit from impulse control exercises so that you can gain at least a marginal thinking state. The Premack Principle works well with these dogs as they learn to incorporate some composure, although it's also true that some excitement may get mixed in, but if we start slow in low distraction areas mastering fluent responses,  and also tackle the emotions as well, over time we should see a steady increase in desirable behaviors. Here's a read on the Premack Principle: https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/premack-principle/

With children, things get tricky, many dogs struggle being around them, especially the younger kids who squeal, run around and do fast movements. Keeping your dog at a distance (leashed next to you or behind a baby gate) and practicing obedience cues can turn helpful. Too close exposures may lead to over excitement and and too long exposures may cause stress.

Best to do brief exposures for training purposes and then keep the dog away so he can get some respite. 

I would not recommend having children take things from his mouth, this is often how resource guarding starts. Even if he's not prone to this, children need to be instructed how to behave properly in the presence of dogs. If they meet the wrong dog, taking something out from the mouth, can lead to a dangerous bite.  https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/the-importance-of-preventing-resource-guarding-in-puppies/

The barking when sitting down, can be due to various reasons. Does he beg for food? If not, he may have just wanted attention or was upset that everything suddenly got so calm. As a herding dog, he may crave interaction and movement.

It may help to give him something to do during dinner such as giving him a stuffed Kong or another edible chew he loves that take some time to consume. This should be away from the guests like behind a nearby baby gate-you don't ant kids pestering him or trying to take away a bone-which is risky.) You may have to practice this and make it a new ritual when you are dining so that you can gradually transfer this with calm guests and then guests with kids. 

[H MORRIS]

Really helpful stuff. Many thanks again. Love the Premack principle. Meal times were a real problem. While we were eating he’d beg and hassle us. If we put him behind a gate or in the other room he’d bark frantically because he could smell the food, even if he’d just eaten. Now we have him in the same room and he lies on his bed near our dining table. He has a kong and occasional pieces of chicken. He doesn’t move while we eat until he gets the free command. It’s taken a lot of work, but he’s very good now and just stays on his bed. It may not be the best solution but meals are peaceful and he’s still, quiet, and in one place. Finn doesn’t actually get any meals in a bowl. He has to work for all his food. It wasn’t what we wanted, but he’s made such progress. We can take his collar on and off, groom him, and inspect his teeth and ears, put a harness on him . . . all things that were unthinkable at 1 year old. He sleeps nicely in his crate and does all kinds of tricks. A lot of the time he walks well on the lead and his recall is quite good unless he’s over threshold. He’ll drop items well and we’re working up to food, and his leave it is really coming on. He seems happy too and is coming for more cuddles.
The beagle we had some up years ago was so calm, so chilled, so loving that Finn has been absolute shock. As a pup he was like a wild animal. He would most likely be in a shelter now with most owners, but we’re determined to love him and fix him if it’s at all possible. His last few problems at 2 and a half are arousal barking, excited greeting, eating poo (hence the leave it work) and wildly scratching the floor/ furniture with both paws when unsettled. But he’s calmed significantly though and is very much on the right trajectory.

[Adrienne Farricelli]

 Meal times were a real problem. While we were eating he’d beg and hassle us. If we put him behind a gate or in the other room he’d bark frantically because he could smell the food, even if he’d just eaten. Now we have him in the same room and he lies on his bed near our dining table. He has a kong and occasional pieces of chicken. He doesn’t move while we eat until he gets the free command. It’s taken a lot of work, but he’s very good now and just stays on his bed. It may not be the best solution but meals are peaceful and he’s still, quiet, and in one place.

That's actually awesome! Both our Rotties were trained to hold a down stay during meal times, each on their own beds. Initially, they were occupied with a Kong or edible chew, but as they matured and gained better and better impulse control, they were capable of holding the down/stay while we ate and therefore had to wait for their Kong/edible chew until our dinner was over. This was done gradually, delaying giving the Kong a little bit more and more each day. 

So they learned the "art of delayed gratification." Sometimes they would  even fall asleep as we ate, only to wake up at a moments' notice when they saw us get up to put the dishes away in anticipation for their goodies. 

You will therefore have to work on generalizing this behavior to when guests are over. In other words, remind him that the rules remain the same. I know this can be tricky when there are many distractions, but if you have family members coming over you can practice with them before upgrading to guests with kids or particularly noisy. 

He can have his Kong on the bed, but it's imperative that the kids are of the age to understand that a dog is never bothered/approached while eating and should be left alone. If the kids can't comply this simple rule or the parents aren't the types that watch them, then it's best to erect a pen around your dog's bed for safety. I recommend to rather do this than risk it (mostly because I want dogs to feel safe when eating and not stressed) To many dogs even people moving too much, gesticulating and talking loud can be stressful. When they feel like this, they find it challenging staying still in one spot to eat. A little extra distance can also help. 

Finn doesn’t actually get any meals in a bowl. He has to work for all his food. It wasn’t what we wanted, but he’s made such progress. We can take his collar on and off, groom him, and inspect his teeth and ears, put a harness on him . . . all things that were unthinkable at 1 year old. He sleeps nicely in his crate and does all kinds of tricks. A lot of the time he walks well on the lead and his recall is quite good unless he’s over threshold. He’ll drop items well and we’re working up to food, and his leave it is really coming on. He seems happy too and is coming for more cuddles.

This is all sounds wonderful! It's OK, bowls are made just for our convenience if we think about it, so that the food is kept in one place and doesn't make a mess. Sounds like things are coming along nicely. 

For recalls, recognize what caused him to be over threshold and try to practice more in less intense situation, building up gradually to that intensity. Try to use higher value treats to face those increases in challenges. 

Imagine your recall as an investment.  Every time you call your dog and he comes to you, you are getting some money back. More and more successful recalls make your money start piling up. You are powering up your recall. Every time he doesn't listen though, you are losing some money, and if you cause some negative associations with it like by getting frustrated (dogs can be very sensitive to our moods), you are losing piles of money and that potentially creates setbacks. To help pave the road for success, try calling your dog when you think he's more likely to be responsive.

For instance, if he's sniffing wait until he's done to call him. If you have just taken him outside, wait for him to explore a bit and get a little bored after he has checked things out. Sure, we want to be able to call our dogs in those scenarios, but best to work towards that gradually than un-powering our recall with no response. 

The beagle we had some up years ago was so calm, so chilled, so loving that Finn has been absolute shock. As a pup he was like a wild animal. He would most likely be in a shelter now with most owners, but we’re determined to love him and fix him if it’s at all possible. His last few problems at 2 and a half are arousal barking, excited greeting, eating poo (hence the leave it work) and wildly scratching the floor/ furniture with both paws when unsettled. But he’s calmed significantly though and is very much on the right trajectory.

I am so glad that Finn has loving owners who have been so dedicated to work on all the issues! I wish you continued success and remember the forums are here if you encounter any problems. The earlier issues are nipped, the faster they can be tackled. Rehearsal of problematic behaviors for some time make things much more difficult to overcome because there's an established history and things can quickly get habit-forming. 

 

[H MORRIS]

More superb advice. We’ll try using the delay tactics with the eating. A little bit every day to try and get him to wait until we’ve finished. Fantastic! 
Yes, we’re increasing the recall criteria slowly. We’re still making the occasional mistakes but progress is definitely being made. Love the money analogy, it explains it perfectly. With respect to your last point, that’s the most difficult with a dog like Finn. There’s been so many issues with him, because of his excitement and anxiety, that you can easily become overwhelmed by the amount of training required. We just had to prioritise, but of course as you pointed out, leaving any one issue just causes him to rehearse. And that means more work later. 

[Adrienne Farricelli]

Well, remember as well that at the age of 2 your border collie is right at the border of being still a teenager and getting closer to adulthood. The teenager stage is reported to be the most challenging time and you are getting closer to the end of it. Border collies are said to "calm down" somewhat somewhere from the age of 2 and 3, although they are "Peter Pans" and retain juvenile traits and energy along with desire to do things. 

With consistency, impulse control training, and lots of baby steps to tackle the anxiety, you should gradually see more progress. Remember to pat yourself on the back as well when you notice progress. It makes sense to prioritize the most pressing issues. Often, if we tackle the emotional aspects first, we then pave the path towards a better learning state.

Us humans also benefit from taking a step-by-step approach as well as things won't seem too overwhelming that way. I like to keep a log of how things go and make graphs to see whether learning is progressing steadily. If there are setbacks, I will analyze what went wrong and take steps to make the exercise easier next time. 

I admire your determination and patience along the way. Of course, post here is you're ever struggling with something in particular as the earlier tackled, the better. 

Happy training!

[H MORRIS]

Superb response. Your advice has been  invaluable Adrienne and we will definitely come back. You seem to really understand dogs and have a terrific insight into their needs. We intend to fix Finn if at all possible and with your help he’s already making good progress. Here he is training with me on the beach.

 

 

[JMFS]

Beautiful attention heeling!  Wow!  And what a magnificent place to train.

[Adrienne Farricelli]

Oh Wow! That's lovely! I am impressed by the teamwork and I can see a great relationship there!

Kudos to both of you! 

Best,

Adrienne 

[H MORRIS]

Thanks Adrienne, we train and practise all the time and he seems to love it. He's excellent at most of your brain training games now. But what I'm clearly not very good at is increasing distractions slowly to make progress. When we're alone like that he's superb. But as soon as another dog comes along, a seagull, a rabbit, a cat, a person, even a noise and he's immediately gone from me and I can't compete. From the sublime to the ridiculous. No in between.

I know the theory of distance to distraction, but I just can't make headway. I've tried Karen Priors 'get it' game and we practise it in various locations. But we're walking along and a rabbit or a cat runs out and he goes crazy. I throw treats behind and say 'get it' and he's way over threshold panting and pulling on the leash like a maniac, lol.

The bottom line here is that he's a difficult hyper dog and I'm an inexperienced trainer. I take him to parks and supermarket entrances etc but maybe I'm not doing the right thing. Would I be better breaking it down and just trying to work on getting his attention with eye contact/clicker first and foremost, rather than doing a selection like I do now eg sit, stay, down, leave it  drop and even a bit of playing with a ball? 

 

[Adrienne Farricelli]

Thanks Adrienne, we train and practise all the time and he seems to love it. He's excellent at most of your brain training games now. But what I'm clearly not very good at is increasing distractions slowly to make progress. When we're alone like that he's superb. But as soon as another dog comes along, a seagull, a rabbit, a cat, a person, even a noise and he's immediately gone from me and I can't compete. From the sublime to the ridiculous. No in between.

Distractions are something most dog owners struggle with at one point or another. Even in group training classes, it's common to hear about dog owners struggling in training their dogs around distractions of the 'real world''. I always say to embrace distractions and turn them into a learning opportunities that will help us become better trainers for our dogs. I even made a little caption for this when I was training Einstein to compete in Rally-obedience around our chickens!

I know the theory of distance to distraction, but I just can't make headway. I've tried Karen Priors 'get it' game and we practise it in various locations. But we're walking along and a rabbit or a cat runs out and he goes crazy. I throw treats behind and say 'get it' and he's way over threshold panting and pulling on the leash like a maniac, lol.

The bottom line here is that he's a difficult hyper dog and I'm an inexperienced trainer. I take him to parks and supermarket entrances etc but maybe I'm not doing the right thing. Would I be better breaking it down and just trying to work on getting his attention with eye contact/clicker first and foremost, rather than doing a selection like I do now eg sit, stay, down, leave it  drop and even a bit of playing with a ball? 

How close are these rabbits or cats when you are walking?

Have you trained "get it" to a fluent response at home and then in the yard, and then around gradual distractions? It is often difficult for dogs to respond to cues we haven't trained too fluently and at too high levels of distractions. 

How does he act in the park or at the supermarket? Is he too over threshold there too? What are his exact triggers? People, other dogs? Noises? Does he ever show signs of fear on walks? 

[JMFS]

With Esther Everything is a distraction.  At our weekly classes (the follow up to her Board and Train program) they put us in the aisle next to the window so we can work through the distractions.  It's highly common for her to be the only one barking her head off.  The trainer is supportive and reassures me she's just a dog being a dog and dogs bark.  Even so, I still get flustered.  Especially when there are puppies with better manners hanging out with us. 

This morning's training saw a lady outside the window trying to get Esther's attention.  I've had a particularly bad bout of insomnia the last few nights and last night only saw 3 hours of sleep.  I was Not in the mood for this gal and I walked over to the window, shook my head, and wagged my finger at her while mouthing the word, "stop."  I'm a barrel of laughs when sleep deprived!  The trainer came on over and told me to train Esther through it, get her attention back on me and don't worry about the lady.  She later said, "we can't train the people to not do irritating things, but we can train the dog to ignore the irritating things."

With time, though, it is paying off.  We got accolades today for me being able to more quickly get Esther's attention back from the distractions.

Based on my experience, if you can train through a window, that may be a good starting point with "look at that."  Obviously you can't enlist the local wildlife's help in this, but you could get neighbors, friends, family, etc . . . with dogs to walk past your window or yard so you can work with him through some barriers before moving on to closer proximity exercises.  Or, if he watches television, you can summon all sorts of critters for his viewing pleasure.

[H MORRIS]

Thanks very much Adrienne, to answer your questions:

The normal walk from our house first thing in the morning is down a country lane with 4 houses at various points and they all have cats. None of them seem afraid of him. Often you don't see them. Sometimes they're in the lane sitting maybe 80 metres away. Then he's not too bad. But he starts pulling. I do the usual stop, then the kissy noise for attention and see if he'll come back by my side, he sometimes looks at me and comes back after several seconds of staring. If it goes on too long, I'll pat my leg to get his attention and maybe walk him around in a circle or throw treats behind for the 'get it' if he's really stuck. That usually works. When I get his attention he usually pulls again, and so it goes on. Eventually the cat usually moves as we get closer. But some walks they appear onto the lane out of a hedge maybe 5- 10m away and that's when he goes crazy, desperately lunging and pulling and wheezing against the collar. No matter what I try, he's gone. Very occasionally they sit quietly on a high fence and with effort we can walk past on the other side of the lane. He does a lot of huffing and puffing, extra sniffing and exaggerated movements but we get past.

He's fluent with 'get it' if there's no or mild distractions. The postman was in the lane yesterday. His van was outside and he came out of a house about 10m away. Finn pulled and barked, I threw treats behind and the 'get it' worked well. He came back to my side as he drove away. If there's ever anybody he knows on the lane walking towards or away from us he pulls to try and get to them, else he walks quite well. We practise loose leash walking every day.

At the supermarket there's so many people and cars around he doesn't pull much as we walk around because there's so many, it's overload. If someone speaks to me and wants to pat him because he is very cute, he'll pull towards them and do his usual going down and rolling over.

At the park he's very wary, watching other dogs and people.But these days he can walk quite well. Sometimes if another dog is barking a lot it can throw him off and he starts to pull a lot. It's his anxiety coming out. Mostly he doesn't seem frightened though, he normally wants to go towards the distraction. Once though, walking on our lane late evening when it was dark, a guy came the other way. It's normally very quiet and I hadn't seen him before. As he got a few yards away it became clear he had a black spaniel with him we hadn't seen in the gloom. Finn suddenly freaked out, and tried to run away. I was worried he'd choke himself. It took a long time to calm him. And we had similar incident when 'the hunt' came through our garden. About 20 fox hounds burst through our hedge ran around and leapt the fence chasing the horses that had taken a different route across the fields, a guy blowing his bugle. Finn was by our open back door and fled into the house barking and panting. He wouldn't go out for some time.

[Adrienne Farricelli]

Thanks very much Adrienne, to answer your questions:

The normal walk from our house first thing in the morning is down a country lane with 4 houses at various points and they all have cats. None of them seem afraid of him. Often you don't see them. Sometimes they're in the lane sitting maybe 80 metres away. Then he's not too bad. But he starts pulling. I do the usual stop, then the kissy noise for attention and see if he'll come back by my side, he sometimes looks at me and comes back after several seconds of staring. If it goes on too long, I'll pat my leg to get his attention and maybe walk him around in a circle or throw treats behind for the 'get it' if he's really stuck. That usually works.

When I get his attention he usually pulls again, and so it goes on. Eventually the cat usually moves as we get closer. But some walks they appear onto the lane out of a hedge maybe 5- 10m away and that's when he goes crazy, desperately lunging and pulling and wheezing against the collar. No matter what I try, he's gone. Very occasionally they sit quietly on a high fence and with effort we can walk past on the other side of the lane. He does a lot of huffing and puffing, extra sniffing and exaggerated movements but we get past.

He's fluent with 'get it' if there's no or mild distractions. The postman was in the lane yesterday. His van was outside and he came out of a house about 10m away. Finn pulled and barked, I threw treats behind and the 'get it' worked well. He came back to my side as he drove away. If there's ever anybody he knows on the lane walking towards or away from us he pulls to try and get to them, else he walks quite well. We practise loose leash walking every day.

Thanks for the extra details, they are very helpful! So the good thing here is that you know that there will be cats in this area so predictability gives you power and a certain level of control over the situation. What I would do in such a situation is work more on your "get it" in less distracting situations. I think what you are missing is a middle ground. If "get it" is working well continue to use that cue. Personally, I prefer to use a kissy, smacking sound as I feel dogs respond better to a sound in these emotionally charged situations. You could make the smacking sound and then toss the treats away from the distraction. Here is the guide on conditioning the kissy sound: 

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/the-airplane-game/the-smacking-sound/

So if you're stuck, I would suggest working more systematically on this. Here are a few suggestions:

-Practice your get it/kissy sound around less intense distractions. For dogs who like to chase cats or other critters, I like to have a helper drag around a stuffed animal attached to a string. First at a distance, then closer, then the helper also drags it around in tall grass. 

- I also have helpers also toss rocks (without the dog seeing) in tall grass on an opposite field and practice with that while the dog is on leash. Soon, the dog realizes that the sounds of grass being moved by the tossed rocks doesn't produce prey and learns to attend less to it and pay more attention to my cues and the treats I have. 

- Get a flirt pole and do some impulse control flirt pole exercises using the leave it and drop it commands. There are many flirt poles on the market nowadays. They are simply a stuffed toy attached to a sort of fishing pole. I like to drag it around telling the dog to "leave it" and then "go!" to get it and "drop it". Once the dog drops it, I give in  exchange some tossed treats. 

-Try using a remote control car. One of our members has done a wonderful job with that. You can read more tips on cat chasing in this thread: 

-Until you have a good response to these cues, it is best not to allow rehearsal of the cat-chasing behavior as it can become rather habit forming. In other words, he'll grow more and more excited as he reaches the area and gets to practice ignoring you. You'll therefore need to strategically plan your walks so that you can avoid full intensity exposures to them-at least until he's better trained to control his chasing impulses.

This may take some tactical approaches. Scanning for their presence as you walk, can help you better gauge as to how far to walk around them to not evoke the pulling behavior. If there is no space to walk around at a distance, then driving past the area and starting the walk farther ahead can be a good compromise. 

This  temporary avoidance is basically management. Management is a temporary measure until the dog is better trained and for those times when we don't have time to dedicate to training. 

-If at any time you are stuck in a pattern where he eats the treats and then goes back to pulling right afterward or trying to chase, try to add duration into the exercise. For example, rather than tossing the treats immediately, hold them up at eye level and have him look at you while walking past them and then toss them away from the cats. Or rather than tossing them all together, try to toss one after another so to keep his focus on you longer. You want him yo-yoing back andforth between the tossed treats and you, rather than the tossed treats and the cats. 

-Catch him *before* he enters a non-responsive state. Dogs with high predatory drives tend to enter a sort of "trance-like" state where they are non-responsive. It's important to catch them before they get to this state and are still under threshold.

-Remember to reward with high-value foods. Very important is to use very high value rewards for choosing to leave it or walk nicely on a loose leash. These rewards need to surpass the adrenaline surge associated with the fun of the chase.  I like to feed several treats in a row (I use the super duper high value foods like strips of baked liver) to leave a strong impact. 

-Don't forget about scent. Dogs with predatory drive are blessed with strong noses so you may want too practice with scent too. Find some toys made out of rabbit fur online, you can practice with that (since the fur retains some odor) by creating set-ups. You can have a helper on walks place the fur in a bushy area (prior to you walking by), and you can practice walking by that area and doing leave its, steps of attention heeling initially at a distance from the bush (always with the leash) using super value treats to reinforce good choices.

At the supermarket there's so many people and cars around he doesn't pull much as we walk around because there's so many, it's overload. If someone speaks to me and wants to pat him because he is very cute, he'll pull towards them and do his usual going down and rolling over.

At the park he's very wary, watching other dogs and people. But these days he can walk quite well. Sometimes if another dog is barking a lot it can throw him off and he starts to pull a lot. It's his anxiety coming out.  Mostly he doesn't seem frightened though, he normally wants to go towards the distraction.

Once though, walking on our lane late evening when it was dark, a guy came the other way. It's normally very quiet and I hadn't seen him before. As he got a few yards away it became clear he had a black spaniel with him we hadn't seen in the gloom. Finn suddenly freaked out, and tried to run away. I was worried he'd choke himself. It took a long time to calm him. And we had similar incident when 'the hunt' came through our garden. About 20 fox hounds burst through our hedge ran around and leapt the fence chasing the horses that had taken a different route across the fields, a guy blowing his bugle. Finn was by our open back door and fled into the house barking and panting. He wouldn't go out for some time.

Management and training under less intense situations is key. There are many steps you can take to manage your dog's environment so that he's not overwhelmed by distractions and feels safe. Here are management options until you have a better response around. 

• Scan your dog's environment. Basically, be your dog's eyes and ears and intervene quickly to prevent exposure to overwhelming stimuli.
• Walk at a distance from other dogs.
• Use an emergency U-turn if you see dogs coming your way and your dog's isn't ready for such intense exposures. Here is a guide on how to train that: https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/emergency-u-turn/

Of course, keeping your dog away from all of his triggers won't do much to fix the problem, but at least it prevents it from establishing and getting worse. The earlier you intervene in taking measures to prevent rehearsal, the better, since your dog has less chances of rehearsing the behavior allowing it to put roots. As the saying goes "best to nip the behavior issue in the bud" than dealing with a deeply entrenched behavior. 

Management is therefore a temporary measure that should be in place as you systematically plan and take steps to implement training and behavior modification techniques. Management works great also for those times when you do not have much time for training, but don't want your dog to go over threshold. 

Your goal is to therefore keep your dog as consistently relaxed as possible during the day, and then dedicate some time systematically exposing your dog to his triggers (through organized setups) so that he's aware of them but under threshold.

Signs a Dog Is Over Threshold

The dog is exposed to the full intensity form of the trigger. The dog is overwhelmed, overly excited and unable to concentrate. 

Signs a Dog in Under Threshold 

The dog is exposed to a less-intense form of the trigger. The dog is alert and aware of the stimulus, but responsive.

Signs a Dog is Neutral (Baseline)

The dog is not exposed to the any trigger. The dog is comfortable and in a relaxed state, dog feels safe and not over stimulated as there is no triggering stimulus.

Paving the Path Towards Learning 

Now, to the juicy part. While management of the environment prevents your dog from going over threshold, you may at some point be ready to take some steps on changing your dog's behavior.  How can you do so though if exposure to the trigger will cause your dog to go over threshold? The answer is by implementing behavior modification. 

Most behaviorists use a variety of techniques, and these often include methods based  on operant conditioning, desensitization and counter-conditioning. The choice of one over the other may vary based on what is causing the dog to go over threshold. Let's take a closer look at several useful methods. 

Operant Conditioning: this is simply training. In behavior modification, dogs can be trained to engage in alternate behaviors that are incompatible with problematic behaviors.  Several impulse control training exercises may turn helpful in teaching dogs better self-control. 

Now, in dogs who are fearful/reactive towards other dogs, it may be difficult to get them into an operant state of thinking since their minds and bodies are in a fight or flight mode, so they need some extra work first. In dogs who are just excited, and maybe a bit frustrated because they can't go and meet other dogs (barrier frustration), a little distance and training to engage in an alternate behaviors through differential reinforcement (my favorite lately is attention heeling) using super high-value treats may work.

More about strategies to work on barrier frustration are covered here: https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/barrier-frustration/

Differential reinforcement: https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/differential-reinforcement-incompatible-behaviors/

Desensitization: the process of exposing the dog very systematically to his triggers in a manner that the dog is under threshold. This is best done through organized set-ups since we have more control over the environment. Often, distance can be a great place to start. For example, with a dog over threshold with dogs 40 feet away, it would be important to start with strangers at 30 feet away. The dog and dog owner team can be instructed to walk perpendicular to the reactive dog (not frontally which is perceived as more threatening). Desensitization to be effective should be coupled with counterconditioning. More about desensitization: https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/desensitization/

Counterconditioning: the process of pairing a trigger with something the dog finds very reinforcing (often tasty food). The goal is to change the dog's emotional response to a trigger from dreading it, to actually looking forward to it. In order to work best, should be coupled with desensitization. 

Back to the example above, as the stranger is introduced at 30 feet, the dog is fed tasty food. Then, the distance can be reduced gradually, always feeding the dog tasty morsels and watching for signs of the dog going over threshold.

Here is more about counterconditioning:

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/counterconditioning/

As you pair the sight of other dogs with food, you want to aim for nice +CER: 

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/conditioned-emotional-response-cer/

There are several techniques that incorporate desensitization and counterconditioning, here are some:

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/open-bar-closed-bar/

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/treat-retreat-game/

Progressing Too Quickly: A Common Mistake 

Desensitization and counterconditioning is over all a pretty tedious process, some compare it to "watching paint dry." The first exposure sessions should be rather short, about 10 or 15 minutes at a time, once or twice a day, every day being preferable. The biggest mistake is moving too fast through the process which can cause setbacks. If the dog reacts at any time, that's a sign we have progressed too fast. We would therefore take several steps back into the process and resume from there before trying to progress again. 

Do not progress to the next level until your dog ignores the stimulus or at least shows just mild interest. With time, the dog should progressively show signs of tolerating more and more exposures.

Need for Some Sub-steps? 

Some dogs are so over threshold, they need some sub-steps. For instance, before seeing actual dogs on walks, some dogs can benefit from first watching them from a window, then on a porch, and then in front of the driveway. This is the exercise Jennifer discussed about above:  https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/brain-training/university/look-at-that/

And some dogs may need first being desensitized to the sounds of tags jingling or dogs barking, using the "hear that" method:

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/pre-lat-look-behavior-modification/

Raising Criteria

There are four types of criteria to meet when doing behavior modification: distance, duration, number of stimuli and distraction To keep the dog under threshold, no more than one criteria should be added at a time.  For instance, if you start with a setup with a dog walking closer and therefore decrease distance, you shouldn't add duration or additional distractions (like a dog that barks and lunges) . 

A big issue with dogs who are over threshold is their level of emotional arousal. While training can help teach better impulse control, it doesn't tackle directly a dog's strong emotional reaction triggers.

All dogs therefore benefit on learning how to relax. It is therefore important teaching these dogs how good it feels to be relaxed. Capturing calm behaviors as they unfold can help a ton. Training dogs to lie quietly on a mat is helpful: https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/video-archive/train-dog-go-to-mat/ Massage and TTouch are useful too. 

I hope this helps you! Keep us posted! And Let me know if you have any other questions!

Best,

Adrienne 

[H MORRIS]

Wow that's an amazing response. I loved the puppy thread you linked and can see that you're making a real difference to people's lives. Incidently, the video with the model car is exactly what we did when we got the robot vacuum cleaner which Finn freaked out and barked at initially. It's common place now and he doesn't even bother about it at all. Which leads on to my first comment.

a) You're right setting up training distractions is the key but it requires imagination and effort. This is an area we're struggling with. The flirt pole idea, furry animals and scents is definitely a great suggestion for the cat problem. The internet is full of dog training videos of how you start a process, but now how you continue and polish it, and that's the hard part. This is one of the reasons we decided to invest in your site rather than use free videos, because the 'exam' part gives you a goal to work to. We're on college level and Finn can pass all the exams well up to there.

b) I noticed you mentioned sneezing as a frustration behaviour. We never knew this. It explains a lot. Finn has always been a resource guarder and we've played fetch since he was a small pup. But he's always dropped the ball/frisbee 2 or 3 yards away. He comes for the treat, but wants to go back and get the toy. I wait with the treat behind my back not looking at him, he goes and gets the toy and brings it to my feet sneezing the whole time. I praise and give him the treat, but it's never moved on from there. 

c) One of the reasons beginner trainers like us get so confused is because with an anxious, reactive hyper dogs the unwanted behaviour traits are many - resource guarding, constant alert barking, poo eating, wild greeting, grooming, chasing animals, nipping, unpredictable reaction to other dogs, anxiety separation etc. All those behaviours have to be managed and corrective training put in place. Relaxation is our No1 priority as you say, and we've worked very hard on that. Yet everyday seems to bring a new challenge. Yesterday he was sick and had runny poo yet again from his obsession with cat poo, fox poo, sheep poo and cow poo. We never knew there was so much about until we had Finn, lol. We watch him like a hawk, but he finds the smallest amount in the grass by the side of the lane somehow. 

d) For attention training we're going to take this approach from your advice: work hard on the kissy noise until its fluent, mild distractions - once engaged with the kissy noise follow it with an incompatible behaviour command to become salient eg sit, for more difficult distractions - try and anticipate then use the kissy noise followed by tossing treats away from the distraction to yo yo him back and forth to you. Use set up training to desensitize in order to try and lower his threshold levels in the real world.

Many, many thanks.

 

[Adrienne Farricelli]

Wow that's an amazing response. I loved the puppy thread you linked and can see that you're making a real difference to people's lives. Incidently, the video with the model car is exactly what we did when we got the robot vacuum cleaner which Finn freaked out and barked at initially. It's common place now and he doesn't even bother about it at all. Which leads on to my first comment.

I can see that working well for these new modern vacuums! You did a great job if he has now totally habituated to it. With cats it'll be more challenging due to their unpredictable movements, scent, furry appearance etc. We must remember that we are working with breeds that are highly attracted to movements and with collies, they have that strong, ingrained instinct to want to herd. 

 You're right setting up training distractions is the key but it requires imagination and effort. This is an area we're struggling with. The flirt pole idea, furry animals and scents is definitely a great suggestion for the cat problem. The internet is full of dog training videos of how you start a process, but now how you continue and polish it, and that's the hard part. This is one of the reasons we decided to invest in your site rather than use free videos, because the 'exam' part gives you a goal to work to. We're on college level and Finn can pass all the exams well up to there.

Congrats on reaching the college level so quickly! Finn is getting closer to turning into a doggie Einstein!  For sure, videos and other material can be extra helpful, but they can lack the individualized approach needed when things don't work out as hoped, unexpected challenges present and with dogs having their own individual quirks and personalities different scenarios and situations may present.  

 I noticed you mentioned sneezing as a frustration behaviour. We never knew this. It explains a lot. Finn has always been a resource guarder and we've played fetch since he was a small pup. But he's always dropped the ball/frisbee 2 or 3 yards away. He comes for the treat, but wants to go back and get the toy. I wait with the treat behind my back not looking at him, he goes and gets the toy and brings it to my feet sneezing the whole time. I praise and give him the treat, but it's never moved on from there. 

Sounds like a touch of possessiveness over the ball. Other typical signs include getting the ball you toss them, but then, they take off with it playing with it at a distance from you or possibly lying down to chew on it. Dogs who resource guard balls will likely also move away with the ball if you show any interest in the ball such as looking at it or moving towards the dog.

So it sounds like there may be some conflict going on here. He has desire to have the treat, but doesn't want to leave the ball behind. Being possessive over toys can indeed put a dent in training a dog to fetch as it's supposed to be played (bringing the ball to the owner). 

In these cases, we should avoid chasing the dog to retrieve an item he wasn't supposed to have, as this can instill in them a fear of losing  possession and a need to protect certain items. These dogs therefore need to learn the value of trading, but starting with lower value items first. Balls are tricky because the movement adds a lot to their value versus stationary things. So we need to factor in movement versus just working with stationary things like say bones or food bowls. 

It's a good idea to therefore start working to establish a strong history of trust around toys. Below are some general guidelines, but you want to work with a professional for safety if the resource guarding is there. 

Always make sure that whatever is traded is always superior in value than the toy. You may need to use longer lasting treats that are in a toy such as a stuffed Kong for swaps.  This way you're trading for another toy, but with the extra value of it containing food. More tips of swaps are found here: https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/overprotective-of-toys/ 

I recently worked with a dog who was possessive over a ball and it took some time as it was a strongly ingrained behavior he had practiced since a puppy. I had to work on various levels. I started with low value toys first, then gradually higher value when working on drop its and also worked on approaches. 

I therefore started with asking drop it using lower value toys. Here is the drop it guide:

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/brain-training/obedience-101/drop-it/

With drop its and approaches, to instill trust, I avoided to unnecessarily take the ball away. I just made it clear that it wasn't my intent to get it and that I was simply feeding treats and allowing him to go back to it. This way he got the message that not only, I wasn't interested in stealing the ball from him, but was actually bringing goodies.

Possessive dogs may develop a fear of being "tricked" into getting a treat and us snatching things away from them while they're distracted, especially when only a treat is tossed and it's low value and doesn't fair well in comparison to the dog's perception of value of the ball. The treat can also come to signal that all the fun time is over so the dog may not be too happy about it after several reps.

With approaches, I did approaches staying at a distance and tossed him treats and allowed him to always go back to the ball. I made sure to be generous and waited for all tension to melt away aiming for a positive conditioned emotional response (+CER)

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/conditioned-emotional-response-cer/

I then gradually got closer, always tossing several treats and letting him return to the ball, and therefore never touched the ball, just approached him when he had a ball, tossed several treats and let him return to the ball. This was to further prove to him that I had no intent to take the ball away,  but only to add resources. I looked  again for thar lovely +CER.

I then started raising criteria, I started adding very gradually moving my hand towards the ball when the dog was facing me coming back to it at a distance, and tossed treats (pieces of roasted skinless chicken) and rinse and repeated several times let him yo-yo back and forth as he watched me. Again, I looked for the +CER. Then, I progressed to doing the same now very lightly touching the ball, always waiting for the +CER of the dog waiting eagerly for me to touch the ball so to get the treats, then holding the ball, then tossing the ball along with several treats and leaving. All to let him know that, even if I touched the ball, I was not taking it away and actually was adding treats and more fun. The biggest fear of these dogs is not getting the ball back so we need to convince them otherwise. 

I also practiced having balls on the floor and asking him to sit and watch me approach them and tossed treats his way every time I touched one. I then progressed further to rolling a ball and having him sit and watch me pick it up and then released him by tossing treats and the ball. 

We then reached the point where I could ask sit on the couch and get a ball out of my pocket, ask him to hold the ball and drop it in my hands and me dropping it closely and him returning it and then gradually a little farther.  Many dogs do best being taught fetch using back chaining: https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/brain-training/einstein/the-tidy-up-game/

If I ever had to remove the ball for good for some reason, I used one of the  strategies mentioned in the earlier article making sure to offer a superbly fair exchange:

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/overprotective-of-toys/

Another option is trading for exchanges is trading the ball with another ball in what is known as the "two-ball method." Simply toss the ball, when your dog gets it, show him you have another ball, but don't throw it until he drops the ball that's already his mouth. Even better, fill up a bucket with balls and keep trading. Repetition after repetition, your dog will understand that in order to chase another ball, he must first bring back/drop the one he already has. He'll likely eventually learn that there's no need to take off and hold on to the one ball when there are more and more coming!

If you use the two-ball method, avoid falling into the temptation of pretending to toss the ball to get your dog to drop so you can snatch the ball from him. This leads to suspicion in the dog and a future reluctance to drop.

Now, consider that although fetch seems rather a simplistic game, but it's really quite complex, especially in breeds that weren't selectively bred for it (like golden retrievers or Labrador retrievers) or those with possessive tendencies. It's actually a chain of several behaviors and they each have to be taught well otherwise things may not work out, and with possessive breeds you first have to establish that trust. 

A word of caution though is needed here, as possessive dogs can bite. These cases are best worked along a dog behavior professional using force-free behavior modification for safety and correct implementation. There are always chances for a mistake on our side or the dog misinterpreting our intent and the possibility of a bite if we raise criteria too fast, fail to miss a warning sign from the dog, and don't work at the dog's comfort level. When we use new toys or add movement such as tossing a ball, it's possible for possessive behavior to make a comeback if we have failed to work at that level or because of a temporary phenomenon known as spontaneous recovery. 

c) One of the reasons beginner trainers like us get so confused is because with an anxious, reactive hyper dogs the unwanted behaviour traits are many - resource guarding, constant alert barking, poo eating, wild greeting, grooming, chasing animals, nipping, unpredictable reaction to other dogs, anxiety separation etc. All those behaviours have to be managed and corrective training put in place. Relaxation is our No1 priority as you say, and we've worked very hard on that. Yet everyday seems to bring a new challenge. Yesterday he was sick and had runny poo yet again from his obsession with cat poo, fox poo, sheep poo and cow poo. We never knew there was so much about until we had Finn, lol. We watch him like a hawk, but he finds the smallest amount in the grass by the side of the lane somehow. 

I hear you! With many issues it can be overwhelming and difficult knowing even where to start! Some dogs are a work in progress. First and foremost, emotional issues such as fear, anxiety and over excitement need tackled as these can interfere with the ability to learn. 

We can then always use management for those issues that we want to tackle later on (e.g. walking on leash for poop eating/ to prevent chasing animals, using daycare for when we must leave the dog alone for longer that he can tolerate. Erecting a fence can solve many of those issues. 

d) For attention training we're going to take this approach from your advice: work hard on the kissy noise until its fluent, mild distractions - once engaged with the kissy noise follow it with an incompatible behaviour command to become salient eg sit, for more difficult distractions - try and anticipate then use the kissy noise followed by tossing treats away from the distraction to yo yo him back and forth to you. Use set up training to desensitize in order to try and lower his threshold levels in the real world.

Many, many thanks.

You're very welcome! I think more than sit, a more dynamic cue such as attention heeling can help. When they see cats, these dogs are ready to pounce into action, so asking them to sit still may cause them to shake from all the anticipation and desire to chase. It can be extra challenging to stay still when all their bodies want is to chase.

I have found it to be more helpful in these cases to ask for more dynamic cues. For example, in the case of a dog who is quivering in anticipation to chase a squirrel, you may want to stick to a "find it" cue tossing several treats to the ground and releasing your dog to hunt for them or doing some steps of attention heeling with you holding  treats at eye level and then tossing the treats ahead of you. 

Let me know if you need any help or have further questions!

Best,

Adrienne 

Disclaimer: behavior modification comes with risks. If your puppy or dog shows signs of potential aggression (lunging, barking, growling, snapping, biting) for safety, please consult with a dog behavior professional who uses force-free behavior modification techniques (no shock, prongs, or physical corrections) for direct in-person guidance. Articles, videos and general info found in the forums or course (or any online source) are not meant to replace in-person training/instruction. By using this course and forum, you are waiving any liability claims or other type of claims related to any dogs' behavior against you or others.

[H MORRIS]

You're resource guarding advice is top notch. We've been working on this solidly, but still have ways to go. We do drop everyday and exchanges, but it's heavily ingrained. It started when he was very small, probably our fault. Our last dog was a Beagle and be was so gentle you could anything with him, so we weren't prepared for Finn. At about 16 weeks he picked up thorny stick on a walk that had fallen from a hedge, worried he would hurt himself, I made what I now know to be a classic error and reached for it. He bit me quite hard in the thumb and drew blood. It was a shock. Our beagle never even mouthed as a pup. A few weeks later he bit me again trying to take his collar off. That's when I started googling hard and reading up on dog training. We're careful now and have worked really hard on handling and resource guarding. He sits quietly while I take leads and collars off these days, but I still treat him. He hasn't bitten me since and is turning into a very loving dog at 2yrs 5months. I trust him now, but I still never remove anything without trading and always try to give stuff back to him. He's very good at dropping things from socks to balls but you know it's still there by his frustration at bringing balls or frisbees all the way back and when he steals things, like a cloth say, he sits with it and puts his head over it if so much as move in his direction. I liked your idea of putting peanut butter on a toy and yesterday used that as a trade and he loved it.

We haven't reached the 'tidy up game' yet on your brain training challenges. But yesterday, for fun I tried to do it with some free shaping to see what happened. I used his up turned step, after some handling work, as a box. I'll send you a video of it.

Finn is so clever, he's almost sentient. He seems to know what I want without speaking. He's incredibly challenging, but small improvements are a delight. We love him and dearly want to be fix him.

[H MORRIS]

 

[JMFS]

Oh my gosh, you are doing a Terrific, Magnificent, Stupendous, and Spectacular job with him!  I'm in awe.

We went through the resource guarding thing with Momo.  After 8 years of struggling I finally got help and it was a completely different feeding routine after that.  My advice to everyone I meet now is, "get help immediately, don't wait and waste the best years with your pup."  From now on my dogs get the "hey, look at me," treatment at the bowl and they get a tasty addition to their bowl if they give me the attention.  I reinforce it a few times per month and can take anything from them (unless they're parading around the yard triumphantly in a game of "Keep Away."  Esther . . ..  Gerts does it rarely, but sometimes with 5 or 6 birds of prey flying over our yard there are unexpected treats hiding.

Anyway, you're not alone in resource guarding and that video made me smile and laugh.  Good boy, Finn!

[Adrienne Farricelli]

Wow, that's brilliant! I love how he is being a "perfectionist" meticulously ensuring the toy fits well in container. You have done a great job in raising criteria and letting him understand the goal of the exercise! Finn is very smart, and I love all the happy praise you give you him. You clicker timing is also spot on. 

I really didn't see any evident signs of resource guarding here, perhaps because you were really quick to get the toys, while he was facing away getting the treat. The only thing that makes me wonder is, whether after you took the ball, and he emitted that little bark and seemed to lose a bit focus, was because he was expecting having the ball tossed back? Just an assumption... 

I would like to offer a little piece of advice just for added safety, mostly based on the history of guarding toys- if I may.  I would suggest to avoid lowering the hands to pet him at the end, as it may be misinterpreted as you trying to snatch the toy since the toy was right under him. He could have reacted to that or could have tensed him up or triggered him to pick it up in fear of it being snatched. Praise with pats is great, but with these dogs best to do that away from toys.

I often seem overly cautious, but also must think proactively- if there are other readers who own resource guarding toys-, we need to be extra careful with what we do with our hands at all times when toys are nearby. It's easy to forget at times.  

It he's struggling with the ball being removed, and that evoked that little bark, it may also help to toss 3-4 high value treats so to have a little more time/distance to remove it and also to offer a more fair exchange and see if that helps. Of course, continuation of the game is also a reinforcer on it's own, but it's always good erring on the side of generosity when it comes to resource guarding. 

We therefore need to be careful on how he perceives the game. If he seems to struggle somewhat, we need to heed with caution so to not "poison" the game so to say. If he feels "tricked" and perceives the game as to "every time a treat is tossed, my ball goes then missing" and it results in a barking protest, a little grunt, a sneeze or  even a disappointed look in his face or anything that causes him to lose focus on the next task, we should take that as a sign that more work needs done to establish a more solid trust history, aiming for a happy +CER. In-person professional assistance can help with this considering that things can get tricky.

You're resource guarding advice is top notch. We've been working on this solidly, but still have ways to go. We do drop everyday and exchanges, but it's heavily ingrained. It started when he was very small, probably our fault. Our last dog was a Beagle and be was so gentle you could anything with him, so we weren't prepared for Finn. At about 16 weeks he picked up thorny stick on a walk that had fallen from a hedge, worried he would hurt himself, I made what I now know to be a classic error and reached for it. He bit me quite hard in the thumb and drew blood. It was a shock. Our beagle never even mouthed as a pup.

 I am sure that came as a big surprise. It can be truly shocking! I was shocked too when my sweet Rottweiler Petra emitted her first growl when we gave her a bone and she was quite young too. I wouldn't think it's your fault. There can be a lot going on such as genetics and their early upbringing in the breeder's home.  It sounds like it came unexpectedly, and you just wanted to keep your pup safe. 

A few weeks later he bit me again trying to take his collar off. That's when I started googling hard and reading up on dog training. We're careful now and have worked really hard on handling and resource guarding. He sits quietly while I take leads and collars off these days, but I still treat him. He hasn't bitten me since and is turning into a very loving dog at 2yrs 5months. I trust him now, but I still never remove anything without trading and always try to give stuff back to him. He's very good at dropping things from socks to balls but you know it's still there by his frustration at bringing balls or frisbees all the way back and when he steals things, like a cloth say, he sits with it and puts his head over it if so much as move in his direction. I liked your idea of putting peanut butter on a toy and yesterday used that as a trade and he loved it.

The biting when taking the collar off sounds more of a handling issue. Some pups struggle with this, holding still and us fumbling to remove it which can be a challenge with some young pups who won't hold still. This is why I like to introduce collar grabs from a young age so to create positive associations with us holding the collar and practice them with recalls.  https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/brain-training/obedience-101/recall/

More exercises for prevention: https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/exercises-to-teach-puppies-to-tolerate-touch/

But it sounds like you have done a brilliant job on this and am super happy to hear you have solved that! Giving a treat for maintenance is good because they may still struggle with that and you can't really predict how he may feel one day about it. 

We haven't reached the 'tidy up game' yet on your brain training challenges. But yesterday, for fun I tried to do it with some free shaping to see what happened. I used his up turned step, after some handling work, as a box. I'll send you a video of it. Finn is so clever, he's almost sentient. He seems to know what I want without speaking. He's incredibly challenging, but small improvements are a delight. We love him and dearly want to be fix him. 

Working with a clever dog has its good sides and some challenging ones. The good is that they're very quick into learning new behaviors, they're creative and offer behaviors trying to get things right. The downside is that they are often "one step ahead of us" and they often get our creative juices flowing because we may need to take steps to keep their interest alive and not getting them bored with certain exercises. 

Happy Training, and keep up the great work!

Best, Adrienne 

[H MORRIS]

17 hours ago, JMFS said:

Oh my gosh, you are doing a Terrific, Magnificent, Stupendous, and Spectacular job with him!  I'm in awe.

We went through the resource guarding thing with Momo.  After 8 years of struggling I finally got help and it was a completely different feeding routine after that.  My advice to everyone I meet now is, "get help immediately, don't wait and waste the best years with your pup."  From now on my dogs get the "hey, look at me," treatment at the bowl and they get a tasty addition to their bowl if they give me the attention.  I reinforce it a few times per month and can take anything from them (unless they're parading around the yard triumphantly in a game of "Keep Away."  Esther . . ..  Gerts does it rarely, but sometimes with 5 or 6 birds of prey flying over our yard there are unexpected treats hiding.

Anyway, you're not alone in resource guarding and that video made me smile and laugh.  Good boy, Finn!

Thanks so much. I really am a complete novice and trying to so hard learn as I go along. Adrienne is giving me some amazing tips. This site is so fantastic.

[H MORRIS]

2 hours ago, Adrienne Farricelli said:

Wow, that's brilliant! I love how he is being a "perfectionist" meticulously ensuring the toy fits well in container. You have done a great job in raising criteria and letting him understand the goal of the exercise! Finn is very smart, and I love all the happy praise you give you him. You clicker timing is also spot on. 

I really didn't see any evident signs of resource guarding here, perhaps because you were really quick to get the toys, while he was facing away getting the treat. The only thing that makes me wonder is, whether after you took the ball, and he emitted that little bark and seemed to lose a bit focus, was because he was expecting having the ball tossed back? Just an assumption... 

I would like to offer a little piece of advice just for added safety, mostly based on the history of guarding toys- if I may.  I would suggest to avoid lowering the hands to pet him at the end, as it may be misinterpreted as you trying to snatch the toy since the toy was right under him. He could have reacted to that or could have tensed him up or triggered him to pick it up in fear of it being snatched. Praise with pats is great, but with these dogs best to do that away from toys.

I often seem overly cautious, but also must think proactively- if there are other readers who own resource guarding toys-, we need to be extra careful with what we do with our hands at all times when toys are nearby. It's easy to forget at times.  

It he's struggling with the ball being removed, and that evoked that little bark, it may also help to toss 3-4 high value treats so to have a little more time/distance to remove it and also to offer a more fair exchange and see if that helps. Of course, continuation of the game is also a reinforcer on it's own, but it's always good erring on the side of generosity when it comes to resource guarding. 

We therefore need to be careful on how he perceives the game. If he seems to struggle somewhat, we need to heed with caution so to not "poison" the game so to say. If he feels "tricked" and perceives the game as to "every time a treat is tossed, my ball goes then missing" and it results in a barking protest, a little grunt, a sneeze or  even a disappointed look in his face or anything that causes him to lose focus on the next task, we should take that as a sign that more work needs done to establish a more solid trust history, aiming for a happy +CER. In-person professional assistance can help with this considering that things can get tricky.

You're resource guarding advice is top notch. We've been working on this solidly, but still have ways to go. We do drop everyday and exchanges, but it's heavily ingrained. It started when he was very small, probably our fault. Our last dog was a Beagle and be was so gentle you could anything with him, so we weren't prepared for Finn. At about 16 weeks he picked up thorny stick on a walk that had fallen from a hedge, worried he would hurt himself, I made what I now know to be a classic error and reached for it. He bit me quite hard in the thumb and drew blood. It was a shock. Our beagle never even mouthed as a pup.

 I am sure that came as a big surprise. It can be truly shocking! I was shocked too when my sweet Rottweiler Petra emitted her first growl when we gave her a bone and she was quite young too. I wouldn't think it's your fault. There can be a lot going on such as genetics and their early upbringing in the breeder's home.  It sounds like it came unexpectedly, and you just wanted to keep your pup safe. 

A few weeks later he bit me again trying to take his collar off. That's when I started googling hard and reading up on dog training. We're careful now and have worked really hard on handling and resource guarding. He sits quietly while I take leads and collars off these days, but I still treat him. He hasn't bitten me since and is turning into a very loving dog at 2yrs 5months. I trust him now, but I still never remove anything without trading and always try to give stuff back to him. He's very good at dropping things from socks to balls but you know it's still there by his frustration at bringing balls or frisbees all the way back and when he steals things, like a cloth say, he sits with it and puts his head over it if so much as move in his direction. I liked your idea of putting peanut butter on a toy and yesterday used that as a trade and he loved it.

The biting when taking the collar off sounds more of a handling issue. Some pups struggle with this, holding still and us fumbling to remove it which can be a challenge with some young pups who won't hold still. This is why I like to introduce collar grabs from a young age so to create positive associations with us holding the collar and practice them with recalls.  https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/brain-training/obedience-101/recall/

More exercises for prevention: https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/exercises-to-teach-puppies-to-tolerate-touch/

But it sounds like you have done a brilliant job on this and am super happy to hear you have solved that! Giving a treat for maintenance is good because they may still struggle with that and you can't really predict how he may feel one day about it. 

We haven't reached the 'tidy up game' yet on your brain training challenges. But yesterday, for fun I tried to do it with some free shaping to see what happened. I used his up turned step, after some handling work, as a box. I'll send you a video of it. Finn is so clever, he's almost sentient. He seems to know what I want without speaking. He's incredibly challenging, but small improvements are a delight. We love him and dearly want to be fix him. 

Working with a clever dog has its good sides and some challenging ones. The good is that they're very quick into learning new behaviors, they're creative and offer behaviors trying to get things right. The downside is that they are often "one step ahead of us" and they often get our creative juices flowing because we may need to take steps to keep their interest alive and not getting them bored with certain exercises. 

Happy Training, and keep up the great work!

Best, Adrienne 

Oh wow, you are so good noticing that bark. I’ve looked at it again and can see what you mean. I realise now that with all his little movements, barks, sneezes and looks . . he’s trying to tell me things and I’m too dumb to understand him. Lol. Also I can see what you mean about petting him with toys around. We’ve still got a lot to learn here. I’ve got to advance now to the next part of that training by putting a verbal cue on it and getting him to clear up lots of toys scattered around rather than just one, without taking them out of the box. But I’ve got something to work with here.

I’ve also been trying your suggestion about the flirt toy. I’ve put him the ‘down’ and asked him to ‘leave it’ as I move the flirt toy around. He’s very good and doesn’t move until I say ‘free’. He’ll also let go with an ‘out’ which is brilliant. The hardest part of all that Is actually the ‘down’, he’s great by the house but doesn’t like to do it elsewhere, I usually have a bit of wait while he looks about a bit nervously. That’s an area I definitely need to work on. 
 

Re handling. I’ve looked at the collar grab and as we do a lot of recalls, I’ll add that to it. There was a time we couldn’t have dreamed of getting a harness on and off, but we do that now with front paws on a step, giving us permission while he gets a bit of squirty cream. It works well but we’re struggling to graduate away from that bribery situation, like we eventually managed with the collar. 
 

Many many thanks again for some great tips.

[Adrienne Farricelli]

2 hours ago, H MORRIS said:

Thanks so much. I really am a complete novice and trying to so hard learn as I go along. Adrienne is giving me some amazing tips. This site is so fantastic.

You are very welcome! Based on your video, with your good timing and ability to train a difficult task in such a short time, and the fact that you have already overcome some significant challenges, I don't see you as a novice. You are doing a fantastic job and your determination to help Finn succeed is to be commended!