Excitement peeing

[Adrienne Farricelli]

Awesome, glad the hand Kong trick has helped you! Some dogs need a little time to get the idea, but sounds like Finn understood the concept right away. Smart boy!

I think he's super duper attentive and in tune with how you feel and can anticipate what you are about to do.  It seems like can tell when we are doing something with a certain intent. Like my dogs could tell when I am getting up from my chair to just do house chores from when I am getting up with the intent of going outside or to do something out of the ordinary.  They can be very observant of our moods and body language. 

Sounds like Finn appreciates (or at least tolerates)  "the burr removal" as part of massaging routine, but thinks that just going straight to remove it is too intrusive and worthy of a correction! 

Great observation, the knowing how over threshold he is by how he takes treats! What a great team! 

 

[H MORRIS]

Thanks so much for your input Adrienne. I’m certainly learning a lot from you and hopefully helping Finn to cope in a world he finds hard. I’ll get back to you with his progress.

[Adrienne Farricelli]

You're very welcome! You're doing a wonderful job with Finn!  Keep us posted on how things go. 

[H MORRIS]

Thanks Adrienne. He’s much improved now. But we had a problem this weekend with a family gathering at our house. We had friends and relatives over and Finn was superb in the garden playing with the little ones. He was there for at least 2 hours running around with five children under 6 playing catch and dropping the ball for them. He joined in with their football and all the adults were so impressed at his gentleness. The youngest was 2 and we were worried he might knock her over running free, but he never jumped up at any of them. They all loved him. Then we all sat down at a big table outside to eat. We put Finn on his bed and gave him a lick mat and a kong, but he couldn’t hold his place and wanted the kids to keep on playing, so he just barked and barked at them, running around while they were eating. He didn’t jump up, but the noise got very wearing after a few minutes. I went over to put a lead on him and take him away, but he just dropped to the floor. I tried to entice him back to his bed with a tug toy and by throwing treats but he wasn’t moving. I gave him another chance but he continued the frantic barking. Eventually, I had to pick him up and take him indoors, because people couldn’t think, let alone talk. I didn’t want to and felt bad. It was such a shame as he was doing so well. When the meal was over I brought him out and he was fine again until people went home and then he barked like crazy again because everybody left. What could I have done different to use it as a training scenario?

[Adrienne Farricelli]

Thanks Adrienne. He’s much improved now. But we had a problem this weekend with a family gathering at our house. We had friends and relatives over and Finn was superb in the garden playing with the little ones. He was there for at least 2 hours running around with five children under 6 playing catch and dropping the ball for them. He joined in with their football and all the adults were so impressed at his gentleness. The youngest was 2 and we were worried he might knock her over running free, but he never jumped up at any of them. They all loved him.

I am glad to hear that he was so well behaved and everyone was impressed with his gentleness and that he never jumped up at the children, that's great!

Then we all sat down at a big table outside to eat. We put Finn on his bed and gave him a lick mat and a kong, but he couldn’t hold his place and wanted the kids to keep on playing, so he just barked and barked at them, running around while they were eating. He didn’t jump up, but the noise got very wearing after a few minutes.

It sounds like he was too overstimulated to be able to eat. We need to consider that 2 hours of play with kids can be very taxing on them and they may get tired/overstimulated/stressed and that can lead to crankiness.

Children will put them in a hyper-excited state, and it's hard for them to chill/lie down when there is so much going on.

His barking could have been tiredness, or he was frustrated that all the play has stopped and now everyone was sitting. There can be an element of anxiety too, as dogs may go into the "fool around'" response when they're not totally comfortable in a situation. 

I went over to put a lead on him and take him away, but he just dropped to the floor. I tried to entice him back to his bed with a tug toy and by throwing treats but he wasn’t moving. I gave him another chance but he continued the frantic barking.

Eventually, I had to pick him up and take him indoors, because people couldn’t think, let alone talk. I didn’t want to and felt bad. It was such a shame as he was doing so well.

When the meal was over I brought him out and he was fine again until people went home and then he barked like crazy again because everybody left.

What could I have done different to use it as a training scenario?

I think he didn't do too bad overall if his behavior just broke down when everybody sat at the table and when they left.

I think he needs more training in less overstimulation environments, five kids under the age of 6 are a whole lot and many dogs would feel overly excited with kids running, squealing and moving around unpredictably.  This can lead to barking, pacing ( and some dogs even engage in mounting)-see Shiloh: 

The fact he refused the Kong and licking from the lick-mat and then didn't care about the treats or playing tug, can be used as an emotional barometer, suggesting that he was too over threshold to be in a thinking/relaxed state. 

In such a case, it would be best to put him indoors *before* meal time, so to prevent him from rehearsing this behavior. This can be a permanent solution, or if you wish to work on the issue it would take practicing more in less overstimulating situations, giving him some distance from the guests (you can put him behind a baby gate/exercise pen or indoor tethering under supervision (using the back ring of a harness) so that he can't be running around and barking while others are trying to eat/talk. 

Implementing more impulse control and frustration tolerance exercises can also help teach dogs how to better moderate their emotions. This won't magically solve behavior problems, but provides dogs with an extra skillset that can help them. https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/impulse-control-frustration-tolerance/

[H MORRIS]

Thanks Adrienne. I think we’ll make a bit of a room for him in our double garage with a mat and a bed. We’ll take him in there from time to time just for a few minutes with a lick mat for a bit of piece and quiet away from us. Then if we have this scenario again he can go in there for a short period ‘before’ we eat and it won’t be unusual for him. If he is put somewhere where he can see us he’ll probably just continue barking and wanting to play.

The thing about impulse exercises is that we’ve worked hard on the ones you’ve listed and he’s very good at them . . . when there’s no distractions! We really need to work out a distraction list and repeat them working through the list I guess.

[Adrienne Farricelli]

Yes, distractions are a challenge for many.   Even when dogs are taken to obedience classes, they do well performing there and then once out in the "real world" their behaviors fall apart. 

However, many impulse control exercises incorporate distractions. For example, sitting despite seeing us holding the food bowl, sitting despite being distracted by the leash, sitting despite the car door or front door opening, walking by and ignoring the distraction of food left on the ground. If Finn is very good at those, you have already worked though distractions that many untrained dogs struggle with.  

You are correct, you can compile a hierarchy of distractions with at the top the highest and at the bottom the lowest and work through those, with the possibility of adding some sub-steps/ intermediate steps if there are challenges along the way.  Basically, if your dog struggles at any time, take that as a sign that the task being asked is too difficult. 

We also need to consider whether there may be a fear element as well at play. For example, if a dog isn't too comfortable being around kids with acute voices and who move around erratically and quickly, he may struggle to stay still in one spot as that puts him in a vulnerable position (taking his flight option away). So it may be important tackling any underlying anxiety as well. 

Distance, duration and distractions are the 3D's of dog training and we should work on each element separately. Working on more of one at a time is asking too much. So with kids around, you have high distractions, and you're asking for a down stay which requires duration, and he's likely too close to the kids for comfort. 

As a general rule of thumb, we shouldn't progress to the next level on our until we have attained at least an 80 percent response rate, meaning that dog performs the desired behavior 8 times out of 10. 

On top of compiling a hierarchical list of distractions, we can also compile a hierarchical list of treats with the highest ones being matched with the most challenging situations. 

[H MORRIS]

Thanks Adrienne. So I write a long list of distractions/triggers and put them in categories on a list of 1 to 10 and work through them. That’s what I had in mind. But you mentioned distance and duration which adds layers of complexity. So I have cats on the lane, which I might write down as an 8 on the list of distractions because he definitely won’t listen to me when he’s focussed on them. But if they’re 20 meters as opposed 1 metre away it might lower the distraction level to a 4. So this now confuses my record keeping which I was hoping to do, because the higher distractions can be almost at any level depending on distance away. How do go about recording this? Sorry for not being very bright.

[Adrienne Farricelli]

Thanks Adrienne. So I write a long list of distractions/triggers and put them in categories on a list of 1 to 10 and work through them. That’s what I had in mind. But you mentioned distance and duration which adds layers of complexity

You make valuable questions and the topic is far from being simple because there can be so many things to factor in. In other words, we sort of need to put ourselves in our dog's mind and perceive things from their perspective. 

So I have cats on the lane, which I might write down as an 8 on the list of distractions because he definitely won’t listen to me when he’s focussed on them. But if they’re 20 meters as opposed 1 metre away it might lower the distraction level to a 4.

So this now confuses my record keeping which I was hoping to do, because the higher distractions can be almost at any level depending on distance away. How do go about recording this? Sorry for not being very bright.

No worries! Things can get quite complex considering that it's not easy to control the environment and things may overlap. 

So every list should be compiled tackling a specific issue. So you would have a separate specific list for walking past cats, and a list for coping with kids. 

At the top are the  easiest tasks so we work from top to bottom.

So with cats as an example, if Finn is OK with them at 20 meters and is in a responsive state, that would be put higher up the list. If he reacts to them at 1 meter away, that goes lower down the list-BUT we have to consider other variables and not work on multiple challenges at once. 

So if the cats are walking/running around at 20 meters that's more complicated than if they are stationary/lying down so we would need to work around that and increase distance so to not make things too difficult. 

Here is a sample of a hierarchy list, source Simply Psychology. This list is rather simplicistic because it doesn't consider other factors such as size of the spider/hairiness, how far the photo or box is, how long the spider is allowed to crawl (duration) etc.

So if for example, we want to increase the duration of the spider crawling, we may temporarily lower criteria and start with a smaller one on the arm for for 1 minute and gradually build up to allowing a large tarantula on the arm for the same amount of  time. 

 

[H MORRIS]

Thanks Adrienne. So I need a hierarchical list of distance/contact for each trigger, like your spider list. An anxious dog like Finn has a whole load of triggers, so that's a lot of lists: cats, pigeons, cars, bicycles, noises outside, neighbours coming out of their drives, postman, other dogs, kids running around, doorbell etc

Presumably I then do some simple obedience work like sit, down, stay, heel and work up the hierarchy. It's incredibly complex. I can see why if you have a naturally calm dog by temperament that this is a much easier task with just a few triggers. But an anxious dog with a lot of triggers is daunting. And more, setting up some of these scenarios with distance will take some planning.

Can I ask a simple question? If I embark on this, and work through lists slowly, is it real that he might eventually be compliant and sit when say a cat runs across the road in front of him, or when a neighbour comes to the fence to chat he'll stay by me and not dash over to greet them wildly? 

[Adrienne Farricelli]

Thanks Adrienne. So I need a hierarchical list of distance/contact for each trigger, like your spider list.

That's a rather general sample, as mentioned it's missing some elements so there may need to be some sub-steps depending on the individual. Every dog needs an individualized plan based on several variables. 

An anxious dog like Finn has a whole load of triggers, so that's a lot of lists: cats, pigeons, cars, bicycles, noises outside, neighbours coming out of their drives, postman, other dogs, kids running around, doorbell etc.

When there are many triggers, it helps to focus at just a few at a time and tackling the most urgent/most needed first. For example if you meet cats on every walk or the neighbors come out of their drive every day, that may be prioritized over kids who may be running amok in your home in a blue moon ( you can always manage the situation if needed in the case of surprise guests). 

You can still though work with kids in less direct ways by walking Finn nearby schools or parks where they play or watching them from a window and practice desensitization/counterconditioning exercises/obedience cues like starting with Look at That https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/brain-training/university/look-at-that/   

Presumably I then do some simple obedience work like sit, down, stay, heel and work up the hierarchy. It's incredibly complex. I can see why if you have a naturally calm dog by temperament that this is a much easier task with just a few triggers. But an anxious dog with a lot of triggers is daunting. And more, setting up some of these scenarios with distance will take some planning.

It can feel daunting, but you can change the mindset and try to make of every experience a teaching moment. In other words, embrace the little challenges and make the most out of them. It can be rewarding in the long run seeing the little improvements pop here and there.

If there is a setback or the dog doesn't respond to our cues because the dog is likely too over threshold, assess what may have gone wrong (too close, too intense exposure) and go back to lower intensity exposures and practice from there. 

This is behavior modification and it's more involved mere training as the goal is changing the dog's emotional response so to allow training to better sink in. Professionals involved in behavior modification undergo more training and continued education to correctly implement it. 

Can I ask a simple question? If I embark on this, and work through lists slowly, is it real that he might eventually be compliant and sit when say a cat runs across the road in front of him, or when a neighbour comes to the fence to chat he'll stay by me and not dash over to greet them wildly? 

With dog training and behavior modification no guarantees can be every made on the outcome. There are too many variables involved, and this is why main dog training organizations emphasize the importance of not offering guarantees/ results. 

However, I love the saying "when there is a will, there is a way." Those who are committed and results-oriented and diligently work on the issues, *should* eventually be rewarded with some promising results when behavior modification is implemented correctly.

It doesn't happen over night,  you just tend to see some desired behaviors pop up here and there, sometimes surprisingly right after you feel like things aren't improving and feel discouraged. 

In response to your example, about sitting when a cat runs across the road, or not dashing over to greet, consider that this is advanced training in front of strong distractions so it takes some time and practice to get to this level.

We work directly on things like this when preparing dogs for service dog training (we have people come shake our hands and talk, while our dogs must sit, practice a lot in the real world going to stores, dog parks, farms, etc.) and this is not covered much in the average basic obedience class. 

Things to consider:

-You'll likely need to rely on strong reinforcers so to make sitting more appealing than chasing the cat/going to meet your neighbor.

-You'll need to take baby steps as mentioned, starting with distance from the neighbors/distance from cats.

-You'll need to tackle any underlying anxiety if that plays a role (some dogs aren't comfortable sitting/laying down in presence of certain stimuli/situations when they're not entirely at ease, and may do better being trained walking past them ignoring them-attention heeling).

-If you want your dog to hold a long sit stay while you're holding a conversation with your neighbor, you'll need to also factor in duration. If it's too long, dogs may struggle/grow frustrated as it feels like punishment if their stay hasn't been conditioned/reinforced well enough. 

-If there is an element of anxiety in greeting/needing to lick excessively to appease, you can sometimes find a middle-ground and rather than asking a sit/stay, using a cue like "leave it" or a smacking sound reinforced with a treat tossed the opposite way, although you may have to keep reminding this several times because that need to appease/greet is so strong. Some dogs also don't feel calm enough until after they have smelled/greeted. 

-If you want to make people less salient, lowering the excitement arousal in dogs when they meet them, it can help practicing walking past people and ignoring them.

I like to use setups for this. Like with dogs in service dog training, I like to use friends/other family members to practice walking by, then I add in gradually excitement such as them looking at my dog, making remarks, walking towards us, stopping to talk, shaking my hand, gesturing, talking excitedly etc.

I also find walking to crowded places like farmer's markets, helpful as there are too many people and it's hard to focus on all of them. Of course, if a dog is too emotionally aroused/ anxious about being around people, I will skip this until the dog is more comfortable otherwise there are risks for 'flooding.'

-You may have to use management like keeping your dog on leash when you're talking to your neighbor when you don't have time to train/before he is ready.  Same with the cats, you will have to prevent too close encounters by distancing yourself. 

-In severe cases, if anxiety is present and puts a dent into potentially making any progress one may need to use calming aids/possible prescription meds from a vet.

-For cat chasing, you may need to some foundational work on the side as well such as impulse control games and practicing cues like "leave it" having a helper drag a string attached to a stuffed toy or using a remote-controlled car, generously rewarding for complying. 

However, realize that if a cat suddenly dashes right directly in front of him, you may not have the time to even say "sit. " The dog may react quickly and unexpectedly due to the adrenaline rush, sort of like we may instinctively dodge down/cover our face if a large bird comes too close to our face. 

In some cases, despite our attempts, things may not work as we would like. These failures though doesn't mean we have a 'bad dog."

Ricochet is a dog who was meant to be a service dog, but despite all the training she received by a service dog organization, she had to be removed from the program because her desire to chase birds and other wildlife was too great.

This led to a "career change", letting her become a world-wide known surfing dog who is still an inspiration helping many with disabilities. 

[Adrienne Farricelli]

One thing I forgot to mention, the hand-made Kong trick is something I have used in the past with dogs who struggle when I talk to people (wanting to meet people/or plain bored when stopping on a walk). So as a management option, I would have the dog on leash and offer a treat in my hand (closed Kong-style) and the dog would stay focused on that rather than sticking by the person asking to be pet, or barking/nipping out of frustration or any other type of  misbehavior.

[H MORRIS]

More great advice here. I've been going to supermarket car parks regularly, but maybe a farmers market is even better because of the proximity of people. We've also been taking him to an outside cafe every week for a coffee and cake. He sits for a while, but soon gets restless and usually there's a bit of barking before 15 mins is up. We feed him treats and are hoping to grow this behaviour so we can finally take him out for a lunch and he'll relax by the table. 

I've now got a soft toy cat on the end of a flirt toy line, like you suggested. He was very aroused at first but after a few days he just sits when I give him the command and doesn't move until I say 'free' even if I move it quickly right under his nose. But that's in the garden. It's progress though. 

We've also recorded the door bell, cars approaching the house, the door knocking and random noises outside like dogs barking. Not easy because we're fairly quiet out here in the country. We play them everyday whilst he's on his bed and treat him for being quiet. He knows the difference of course and went bananas yesterday when a real delivery man rang the door bell. We're hoping over time it might desensitise him a little.

Been doing a lot of recalls recently, at least 10 a day, in various forms with tiny pieces of cheese. Out and about too. The only failure I've had in a week is when he was in the fields behind our house. There's a path some way away that's used by other dogs and he started smelling, which he does an awful lot of. I made sure I was close and started to run away making his usual command, but he completely blanked me. Grrrrr.