Resource guarding

[YVONNE MCROBBIE]

Hi. I have just joined program mainly because Maisie 18mth cavoodle resource guards certain toys. Corrected problem with food earlier but since older 13 yr female passed Maisie has become anxious when apart from other older male dog when out walking and also resource guarding fav toys has restarted. She threatens to bite us if we try to get toy back. I will go through your program from beginning (we have started at the leave and take as she knows sit and down). But would appreciate help to stop unwanted aggressive behaviour and howling distress when other dog walkec a distance ahead with my husband. Tx. 

[Adrienne Farricelli]

Hi there!

Welcome to the forums! Sorry about your loss of the 13 year old.

I have a few questions to better understand the situation. 

How long have you had Maisie?

How long ago did your 13 year old dog pass?

Did she ever bite in the past? Has she ever broken skin?

Does she guard toys also when around your other male dog? 

How have you tried to get the toy back so far?

How did you correct the problem with food?

Is she showing anxious behavior (howling) only on walks?

Are you walking her and she howls when your husband is walking ahead with your other dog?

How old is your older male dog?

Have you tried walking closer?

Have you tried walking her ahead?

If walked alone, does she howl as well?

Are they always walked together?

Thanks!

[YVONNE MCROBBIE]

Hi tx for reply. 
we have had Maisie since 9weeks old. She is now 18mths  

Buffy died 1st Sept last month

Maisie has not actually bitten us humans just grwled and snapped. Had first big bust up with Buffy over food at about 6mths. Occasional spats with Dougie. Only ever over food. She only resource guards toys with us humans although she behaves as if she might with the dogs if they tried to get what she is guarding (standing over toy and pacing)

With food we used the method of getting three dogs to wait while i put food on ground. Told to ‘leave it’ and tented food with my hand if they came for it (did each dog separately first, then together). Tried with the toy but as soon as she got it would not give it up willingly. Had to distract then get toy and hide it. With tug game i say thankyou and she will drop tug toy but not a very special squeaky toy. My fear is what she might do if a child or unsuspecting person tries to take something off her.
Re walk. no problem on the walk if they walk together. No problem on her own. Howling and panic only when Dougie too far out in front. They are generally walked together but before Buffy died there was no howling or panic if the others got ahead, though she tugs to catch up. Always easier to have her in front. 
Dougie is 10. He loves playing tug with her and tolerates her rough play - pulling on his collar and yapping at him to hurry up if she knows its time for a walk. They are best buddies. 
hope this helps.

[JMFS]

I'm posting so I can follow the answers.  Esther is also anxious when we do walks and Gerts gets ahead. 

I will throw in one piece of advice re: rough play.  If she's grabbing his collar while they're playing, it might be prudent to remove collars.  They can get their jaws stuck and cause injury or death.  Ours wear martingale collars so I am extra cautious about this.  We don't allow play in the house, and Esther is still usually on the leash when we go outside, so it's easy for us to manage.  I'm not sure how it would be for you, but there it is - advice, lol.

I'm sorry for your loss.  My dad passed away on the same day!  Perhaps he was talking about Buffy when he was repeating, "Wow, you should see this!"  💕

[YVONNE MCROBBIE]

Tx JMFS. I would be reluctant to stop play inside as Dougie only learnt to play at age 9 when we brought pup Maisie home. They love chase and tug over ragged toys. Makes my heart full to see Dougie being a puppy at last. Dear old Buffy was snooty towards Dougie though she engaged with Maisie happily. Think we introduced Dougie as a pup with little respect to Bufgy’s space. We did not reapeat that error when we introduced Maisie to her siblings. I took advice from dog trainers posts and did the puppy Mark Vette online to 3months. 
the collar seems safe enough and the collar tugging is getting less as Dougie snaps at Maisie if/when fed up. Then Maisie immediately ceases. 
oh dear. I realky need this forum. Appreciate your advice. Will remove collar when we leave them home alone

[JMFS]

In all the play sessions my pups have had, no one has ever gotten injured by the collar, but it only takes once.  Mine tend to whip each other around by the collar if I leave them on, so for My comfort off they go!

I think it's terrific that you're okay with them playing inside!  I just can't stand the ruckus, or the nails on the hard floors, lol.  They're also wholly unaware of their size and tend to knock things over or step on things.  Usually myself or the cat.  It's spectacular that Maisie appeases Dougie's "enough already, kid," corrections!  Dog to dog manners are one of the tougher things to teach so you're already on a great path!

[Adrienne Farricelli]

Thank you for the extra details, they have been very helpful! Please see my observations in non-bold. I will be making  two posts, one for each problematic behavior presented. I will start with the distress shown upon being separated from Dougie. 

Hi tx for reply. we have had Maisie since 9weeks old. She is now 18mths  Buffy died 1st Sept last month

Again, so sorry for your loss. This loss is very fresh and she may not have processed it fully yet. When a dog dies, dogs may not comprehend what happened and this can prevent a sense of closure. If for example, Buffy was taken away to be euthanized, it may seems as if "she was taken on a walk or a car ride" and never came back.

Its not unusual for two dogs to bond strongly when there are abrupt changes like this in their social group. The remaining dogs may bond even if, prior to Buffy's death, they didn't get greatly along.

It's also not uncommon for a younger dog to form a bond with an older one. Sometimes, more than a mutual bond though, one dog (often the younger one) develops a sort of co-dependency where they feel insecure and lack sufficient confidence to engage in any task, situation, or scenario on their own. A younger dog may therefore find security in an older, more confident dog.

Although not as common as separation-related problems directed towards an owner, this problem is not to be underestimated, considering that affected dogs may show similar distress. 

Impacted dogs may therefore show signs of anxiety when forced to be separated such as when one dog is hospitalized, taken to a dog event,  or, as in your case, the dogs are walked separately or at a distance where the affected dog starts feeling insecure/lost and goes over threshold. https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/threshold-levels/

would appreciate help to stop howling distress when other dog walked a distance ahead with my husband no problem on the walk if they walk together. No problem on her own. Howling and panic only when Dougie too far out in front. They are generally walked together but before Buffy died there was no howling or panic if the others got ahead, though she tugs to catch up. Always easier to have her in front. 

Howling exhibited in these circumstances, qualifies as a distance-decreasing behavior. These dogs are hoping to decrease their distance from who they are being separated from. 

In the wild, wolves utilize their howling for specific circumstances: they may engage in group howling just prior to hunts as a way for psyching themselves up, they may howl to claim their territory and send intruders away and they may howl as a way to locate missing members when they're apart. 

 Howling  in this context is therefore a way a to communicate isolation and a need to be re-united. It's a way to track another person or animal down. In some sort of way, howling functions as a homing beacon or tracking device as it carries over distances. While dog are not wolves, as there are many differences that set them apart, they still retain some instincts that date back to when they were hunters/scavengers. 

Now, there is howling and howling. Many dogs will howl the moment they no longer see us and hear us (or another dog) and may keep howling for a little while, until they decide to settle down, patiently waiting to be re-united. Some other dogs, bring howling to a more severe level, howling and feeling sheer panic. This dogs may be deeply suffering from some type of separation-related disorder. 

Separation-related disorders in dogs can be precipitated by certain events such as being surrendered in a shelter, moving to a new home and also the loss of another pet in the home.

From your description is therefore sounds like the latter form of howling since you describe it as panic. In this case,  we want to prevent full-intensity exposures to the event she dreads so much (your other dog at a certain distance).  So I see a few options here, that may vary depending on her level of distress:

1) Giving her the tincture of time. 

Having sustained the loss of your other dog just about a month ago, this loss is very fresh. Most likely, the loss has caused enough distress that her body is still bombarded by stress hormones and this is causing her insecurity and she's not ready to cope with this type of pressure. 

In these cases, the distress can be so deep that they are unable to take treats and follow any of our cues/directions and therefore they are not in an ideal learning state. It may therefore be a matter of giving her time to regain some balance so that she can be in a better learning state. 

This could mean skipping walks for now if they cause her anxiety or any type of distress, while in the backdrop, working on confidence-building exercises, and aiming to build up stronger coping mechanisms to being away from your other dog, but always making sure that she's under threshold and not exhibiting intense emotional responses. This should be done very gradually as we don't want to put pressure on her at this delicate time. 

2) Prevent rehearsal of the distressing behavior 

In this case, you would still walk her, but prevent her from going over threshold. If your dog is over threshold and under this type of distress, there is little room for progress.

This could mean walking both dogs together, or walking her ahead if that helps. However, you need to be careful of her body language, because in general, dogs who develop panic, come to associate the surrounding areas and the walks with that emotional state and develop anxiety in anticipation of what they fear. You would still aim to work on her insecurity in the background in less overwhelming scenarios. 

3) Behavior Modification

Behavior modification can he implemented when she is in less distress. This could mean giving her time to grieve and rebalance as her distress makes matters worse considering that it causes all those stress hormones to recirculate, making her hypervigilant and insecure. Soon a vicious cycle establishes and the phenomenon of trigger stacking may set in. 

Other ways to reduce her distress may be through the use of calming aids or prescription meds by your vet. Consult with your vet on this. 

Once she's better under threshold, it is then possible to work on the issue holistically at home through confidence building exercises, https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/exercises-build-confidence-insecure-dogs/

clicker training https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/brain-training/clicker-training/

and on walks very gradually encouraging her to move away from your other dog on her own. For example, you can stage some little "detours"  by placing something interesting on the ground and encouraging her to go sniff something or letting her do a little treasure hunt. https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/brain-training/elementary/the-treasure-hunt/

Anything that makes her feel good and create positive associations with it being just you and her. You could then gradually start taking outside on her own, even if this just means sticking by the porch and doing some brain games, fun training out there. It may even be worth driving her to a quiet place for a walk so that new habits emerge compared to walking your usual route which may prompt anxiety.

The goal is to never put her in situations that overwhelm her which creates setbacks and more stress hormones, and focusing on desensitization (baby steps presented in a systematic way) and counterconditioning (creating positive associations so to change her emotional response). 

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/desensitization/

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/counterconditioning/

 

 

[Adrienne Farricelli]

 Maisie 18mth cavoodle resource guards certain toys. Corrected problem with food earlier but since older 13 yr female passed Maisie has become anxious when apart from other older male dog when out walking and also resource guarding fav toys has restarted. She threatens to bite us if we try to get toy back. 

Even in this case, we want to avoid full-level exposures that evoke her resource guarding. This can mean not allowing her toys that she guards for now, and working with low level things that she doesn't guard.

Once again, the goal is working on desensitization (baby steps presented in a systematic way that prevents her from going over threshold and counterconditioning (creating positive associations so to change her emotional response).

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/desensitization/

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/counterconditioning/ 

The ultimate goal would be obtaining a positive conditioned emotional response where she starts looking at you with anticipation upon approaching her when she has a toy versus tensing up and dreading it: https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/conditioned-emotional-response-cer/

So behavior modification for this may entail the following:

-Avoiding as much as possible removing things from her, and training her to let go of them voluntarily.

-Teaching a superbly fluent response to drop it, starting with low value items she doesn't care about and gradually increasing value. You always need to be sure that what you offer is superior in value to what is dropped.  Here is the guide on drop it:

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/brain-training/obedience-101/drop-it/

-Practicing approaches when she has a toy by walking by her at a distance (from which she's under threshold) and tossing treats her way. We would aim for a positive conditioned emotional response where she starts looking forward to us approaching (less tense posture, slight tail wag). 

-In the meanwhile, if a toy needs to be removed, it's importance to practice safety, while also preventing her from feel threatened by us. We can do this through "fair trading" in other words, exchange with something more valuable to her (for example, a bully stick) that is tossed at a distance (preferably by a door that can be closed) so that the toy can be removed without concern since the dog is super happy having received something superior in value to work on.

More about this is covered here:  https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/overprotective-of-toys/

Maisie has not actually bitten us humans just growled and snapped

Now a word of caution is important when dealing with cases of resource guarding. These dogs can and will bite if they are put into situations where they are over threshold. And this can happen, even by mistake (we are reaching for our remote control which fell off the couch, while the dog thinks we're reaching for his toy, so extra caution is needed).

On top of this, due to risks for bites involved in behavior modification, it's important working along with a behavior professional using force-free methods for safety and correct implementation (such as working slowly at a comfortable pace, avoiding progressing too fast which can create setbacks).

Had first big bust up with Buffy over food at about 6mths. Occasional spats with Dougie. Only ever over food. She only resource guards toys with us humans although she behaves as if she might with the dogs if they tried to get what she is guarding (standing over toy and pacing)

It seems like your dog are respectful of her space when she's in possession of a toy. They understood she wants priority access to those and seem to accept that. Still, it's important to carefully supervise as things may escalate and sometimes the loss of another dog causes changes in the dynamics of social groups.

With food we used the method of getting three dogs to wait while i put food on ground. Told to ‘leave it’ and tented food with my hand if they came for it (did each dog separately first, then together). Tried with the toy but as soon as she got it would not give it up willingly. Had to distract then get toy and hide it. With tug game i say thankyou and she will drop tug toy but not a very special squeaky toy. My fear is what she might do if a child or unsuspecting person tries to take something off her.

Sounds like you have found what works for you for the meal eating setting. Polite eating manners can make a  difference and space can help a lot too. 

If she does well with dropping the tug toy, but struggles with the squeaky toy, this means we may need to add some intermediate steps, perhaps work on more trust building and exchanges with higher-value rewards to ensure fair exchanges. 

Children should not be allowed around a dog prone to guarding things, the risks at stake may be too high. We would have to use management, by removing toys or anything else the dog guards or better, keeping the dog away as an extra safety precaution. 

Disclaimer: behavior modification comes with risks. If your puppy or dog shows signs of potential aggression (lunging, barking, growling, snapping, biting) for safety, please consult with a dog behavior professional who uses force-free behavior modification techniques (no shock, prongs, or physical corrections) for direct in-person guidance. Articles, videos and general info found in the forums or course (or any online source) are not meant to replace in-person training/instruction. By using this course and forum, you are waiving any liability claims or other type of claims related to any dogs' behavior against you or others.

[Adrienne Farricelli]

In regards to risks for collar strangulation when dogs play together, there are collars meant to break apart when enough force is applied and several daycares have started using them. As with everything, you'll see some owners happy about them, while others think they fall apart too easily or break.

Here is an example, although I think no collar is 100 percent "safe" and would still be reluctant leaving on collars when dogs are left alone, just as an extra safety precaution. 

https://www.chewy.com/petsafe-keep-safe-nylon-breakaway-dog/dp/52226#:~:text=This collar is designed to,is applied to the buckle.

 

[YVONNE MCROBBIE]

Thank you so much. A lot to digest. I already understand from readings that i have unwittingly added to Maisi’s need to resource guard her treasures because since a wee pup i have Stolen bits of wokd, twigs, rocks - you name it, that she brings inside to chew up. She hates having them removed. I shouldve traded and am doing so now. 
i will keep the highly valued toys locked away meantime. I will walk together or on her own as she is fine on her own. No little children around so have no fears but will be wary. 
you say about the collar safety but will this type of play stop when she is older?

we have maisie doing obedience weekly, scent work daily, and starting agility. She loves all this so hopefully will settle.

re getting trained people in if necessRy - i joined this group because i thought you are highly trainec so im confused as to why you cant give all the necessary help. Please advise if ive misunderstood that you can solve issues. I have only just started the course and assumed i would get all the help here. 
tx again. I have a lot to read with all the links you have given

[JMFS]

As someone who has an in-person trainer in addition to Adrienne, I can shed some light on your last question.  I do understand the confusion because Adrienne Is highly trained and, in my experience, a magnificent trainer.

Some training, especially that with behavior modification, requires in person assessment and application.  If a trainer can't get their eyes on you and your dogs' body language, tone, etc . . . it's difficult for them to intervene to prevent injury or issue corrections.  The in-person trainer helps me tackle the things that just aren't possible via a forum.  Be it me leaving out details, or perhaps being unable to describe everything that happened because I see it from only my perspective, the dog's body language and receptiveness (we tend to attribute human emotions to their actions when in reality they're dogs being dogs).  Additionally, a nip to me might qualify as a bite to someone else, so a trainer really needs to see interactions to make an informed training course specific to your dog. 

E.g., Momo had resource guarding issues to the point of both of us finding feeding time beyond stressful.  He was visibly shaking when I'd approach with the food, and I didn't trust him because he was shaking.  Adrienne was able to help me to a point, but one day Momo was simply too far over threshold and he and I had a blow out in the front yard for all to see.  I insisted he Not eat cat poop, he was adamant he was going to.  I went to grab his collar, as I had done numerous times before, but this time he had something to say about it and it was Loud.  No bite, but he certainly vocalized his disagreement at my actions.  I needed someone to put their eyes on us, and correct my approach.  That trainer was able to break down steps into smaller pieces (sometimes that's necessary because we're moving too fast for the dog to catch on), and she kept a close eye on Mo's body language to ensure I was as safe as possible in regards to him biting me as we worked. 

By visiting in person they can also look at your current set up and suggest management (e.g., baby gates, beds on opposite ends of a room, barriers, etc . . .) and assess the enrichment items (toys, chews, puzzles, etc . . .) we have for our dogs, and make recommendations on how to increase the dog's interest in these things.  I was having trouble getting Gertie to attention heel so my in-person trainer looked around the house and found a long box that we used as a guide so Gertie couldn't swerve this way or that. Many of them are certified in nutrition as well, and can suggest a diet that can help modify behavior.  Companion dogs generally don't need a high performance high protein diet, for example, and by making a change to their food we might find a respite from hyperactivity.  A working dog, like my brother's Shorthaired Pointer, definitely needs a high protein diet for all the running he does when hunting with my brother.

;tldr:

Having said all that, I feel Adrienne goes above and beyond for the small amount I paid for the course.  She does it for everyone who asks a question, not only me.  I know I can always expect a detailed and thought out response.  And she Actually reads, and addresses, Every word we write so we don't have to repeat ourselves.  She has to express the disclaimer, though, because she can't be there to correct us if we misunderstand or stray from her advice.  If I was told not to grab Momo's collar, and did it anyway, she's not there to remind or correct me and I may not only get bitten, but could also set our progress back.  It's also nice to have an extra set of hands.  My girls got into it one day when my trainer was there and I was in the middle of the dogs - there was far too much excitement with new treats.  My trainer was able to grab Gertie while I got Esther under control.

I hope that helps explain.  I know Adrienne will fill in anything I missed.

 

[YVONNE MCROBBIE]

Tx. Very helpful. I understand. 

[Adrienne Farricelli]

Thank you so much. A lot to digest. I already understand from readings that i have unwittingly added to Maisi’s need to resource guard her treasures because since a wee pup i have Stolen bits of wokd, twigs, rocks - you name it, that she brings inside to chew up. She hates having them removed. I shouldve traded and am doing so now. i will keep the highly valued toys locked away meantime. No little children around so have no fears but will be wary.

You are very welcome! Ideally, we want to start instilling a sense of trust from an early age, which is why I highly recommend doing the exercises to prevent resource guarding as soon as getting a new puppy. https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/the-importance-of-preventing-resource-guarding-in-puppies/ It's much easier preventing this issue/working on it very early, than working on it later once it has become an ingrained behavior. 

Ideally, breeders should get this type of behavior modification started when the pups are still in their care, and they should coach new owners on continuing this important education, but we're not that lucky to always have breeders who are knowledgeable and willing to put in that work. The good news is though that, more and more breeders are starting to acknowledge the importance of this. 

I will walk together or on her own as she is fine on her own.

OK, I seem to have missed this little information tidbit which makes a whole lot of difference! This seems to confirm the possibility that Maisi is struggling in particular with your other dog being walking ahead at a distance as she does well walked alone. Thus, this means she doesn't seem to struggle being separated from your older dog to the broadest definition we may see in separation-related issues with "bonded pairs." This doesn't mean she's not suffering, just that it happens mostly in that particular context (which makes it more easy to work on).

If your older dog that passed (again, so sorry for your loss), was taken to the vet that day and never returned, this may have instilled in her a sense of stress/impending doom over a dog who "went on a walk" and neve came back. Some dogs may struggle when they can't process death (by seeing the body) and fail to gain a sense of closure. Dogs may act in uncharacteristic ways after a dog in their social groups passes.  

So yes, walking her on her own can be a good solution if that doesn't evoke any stress-related whining or other stress-related behaviors. Other options are trying to change the departure routine. For example, loading the two dogs in the car to a neutral place and walking them there.  The important factor here is doing what it takes to not allow her to rehearse stress-related behaviors, keeping her always as under threshold as possible. 

you say about the collar safety but will this type of play stop when she is older?

 It may or may not. If you are referring about her grabbing him by the collar during play, once the collars are removed for play, this habit will  extinguish as there is no collar to grab, although some dogs will still like to still grab the loose skin by the neck. If you are referring to just rough play, it can mellow down once older, but many dogs remain Peter Pans in the play department.

We were often thinking our Rotties mellowed down in their play as they got older, but it was mostly because of the summer heat. We actually sort of missed watching them play. Then, come fall, along with its cooler temperatures, and they were back to their frisky selves, barking and playing, which like you, we always enjoyed watching.

Some dogs can be directed to reserve their rough play only for outside, by catching them at first signs of playing (like that initial pay bow/sneeze) letting them sit by the door (open sesame style) https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/brain-training/college/open-sesame/ and then releasing them by telling them to "go play!" in a happy tone of voice. Then once calmer, after they have burnt all the energy, they can be allowed inside again. 

we have maisie doing obedience weekly, scent work daily, and starting agility. She loves all this so hopefully will settle.

That's wonderful!  Hopefully, being that the loss of your other dog is still "fresh," this is just part of the grieving stage, and she will gain closure and go back to her usual self. Those activities will certainly help her while also boosting her confidence. 

re getting trained people in if necessRy - i joined this group because i thought you are highly trainec so im confused as to why you cant give all the necessary help. Please advise if ive misunderstood that you can solve issues. I have only just started the course and assumed i would get all the help here. tx again. I have a lot to read with all the links you have given

With behavior issues such as resource guarding, or any type of deep/anxiety aggression, there are involved risks. Behavior modification is different than training. Training, which is what the main course primarily covers, entails teaching dogs operant behaviors such as to sit, lie down, come when called. The things you learn in a typical dog training class. 

Behavior modification entails changing the dog's emotional response, and because emotional responses often culminate in aggressive displays there is the element of risk. 

However, it's important to point out that training can too change a dog's emotional responses (although not directly) when it involves positive reinforcement, although the training often can be implemented only afterwards in some cases (when dogs are emotionally too charged, their ability to cognitively function shuts down). 

With behavior modification, one can't really give out exact instructions as every dog and every situation is different. Even if one would make a very detailed protocol under the form of an article or video, there are risks that, even if followed to a T, it may just be too much for that dog. This can cause unnecessary stress and may culminate into bites, and even if the bites don't cause harm, they can lead to significant setbacks which put a dent into any progress made. 

Behavior modification is a delicate issue. Often management is the safest approach (removing access to things/situations that trigger aggressive responses) until in-person help can be sought. Sure, there are dog owners who have to a good extent "solved" their dogs aggression problems by reading books or finding online help, but there is an element of risk in doing so, hence why you'll see disclaimers.

The recommended approach is therefore to work in person along with a professional (in the case of behavior modification ideally a board-certified veterinary behaviorist or Certified Applied Animal Behaviorist for the most severe cases as they can rule out medical issues like low thyroid levels/pain and they can prescribe medications to lower levels of stress) or a dog trainer well-versed in behavior modification and attending continuing education courses to stay up-to-date.

In-person help is important because as Jennifer pointed out, the professional can "read the dog" for the most subtle signs of stress and coach owners accordingly, always progressing slowly and at the dog's pace.  Based on a home's setting, they can provide recommendations on how to implement management (where to place baby gates, identify 'hot spots' -areas where dogs sharing the home may be more prone to react aggressively and organize the space so that each dog has its own safe zone.) They can help condition the dog to a muzzle if necessary, and they can catch quickly any mistakes that may be detrimental to any progress. Not to mention, they can carry out a functional assessment, watch how all the family interacts, make observations on the living environment, how the dogs interact with each other etc.