Working dog - Biting/nipping/throwing a tantrum after certain corrections

[ERIN BOND]

Hi Adrienne!

Thank you for taking the time to address, Penelope's concerns with her German Shepherd mix dog and the nipping/biting/ "talking back" issues.

I am going through a similar situation with my Anatolian Shepherd/Maremma Sheepdog Bella.  She is also almost 6 months old and over 60lbs.  She doesn't bite/nip on me constantly, but does like to mouth a lot.  I try to praise the heck out of licking to get her to give "kissies" more.  But so far she prefer mouthing more.  She does more biting/nipping mostly when she wants to try to escalate to play fight (as if I'm another dog) or is doing what I call "throwing a tantrum" because of being corrected from doing something she shouldn't.  (digging holes looking for moles, or trying to eat deer poop out in the field on our long line leash walks.)

I have found that if I walk with a large walking stick in my fenced in half acre with her, she doesn't try to nip/bite me.  Or if she does, I place the walking stick between us and she stays back (she might nip towards the stick a few times, then will chase her own tail or something to expend her energy that way).  Kind of like a shepherd with a staff?  I *never* hit her with it or anything.  It's just the act of putting it between us that keeps her back when we are off leash.  Kind of like a flirt pole I guess?  Is there anything wrong with walking with a big stick/staff and putting it between us like this?

In the field by the house I haven't fenced in yet (planning to fence in around 2 acres around the property next year), I walk her nightly on a long line (50ft) in the area and for the most part she does great.  But if she tries to get into something I don't want her to and I lead/pull her away (such as deer poop) she will usually charge me and start "throwing a tantrum".  Not aggressive at all.  Just nipping at my legs, butt, clothes, hands.  I see it like she's complaining I didn't let her do what she wanted so she's trying to bully me into letting her do it and/or telling me how upset she is for not letting her do the thing.  She mostly does this kind of behavior if I'm not letting her do something she wants to do, or stopping her from doing something she wants to do when we're out on the long line.  I usually choke up on the leash and/or grab her collar and hold her away from me as much as possible until she calms down and repeat "No bite!!" "Stop!" until she wears out and stops and sits calmly, then praise for being "nice" and sitting calmly.  After a little rest, she's fine again and ready to keep walking.  The only thing I haven't tried yet is bringing my walking stick with me while out on the leash too.  What am I becoming now, Gandalf the Grey??  LOL 

Any other ideas to get her to stop throwing a tantrum when she's kept from doing something she wants to do? 

Should I just accept I am a shepherd and need to always keep my staff with me now or at least until she's 2 years old and more mature? lol
For other things when I tell her no, leave it, etc like when she looks like she is going to try to play with the ducks, for instance, she stops right away and has no problem with learning the boundary.  She only throws a tantrum on a correction when it's doing something she REALLY wanted to do (digging holes and eating deer poop for instance) or if I'm standing talking to my mom and she wants to keep walking, she'll come over and start nipping me or my mom or both of us all over.  We tell her no in a stern voice and sometimes she'll roll on her back to show she's submitting, but keep kicking and nipping at us as she does it.  Usually I have to choke up on her leash and/or grab her collar to hold her away until she calms again(she's usually twisting around and trying to nip/bite and/or get away to nip/bite for a minute or two at this point).. I keep telling her "No bite!" and "Stop!"  She knows "nice" so sometimes I try "Be nice" too.  Yesterday I tried running through all of her obedience training that we practice twice every day (sit, lay, shake, look at me, etc) and that took her focus and stopped her for a minute, but then she remembered she was being a butt before and started throwing a fit again after performing her training tricks.

If we're closer to the house and in the fenced area and off leash and she starts nipping a bunch and won't stop, I'll usually go in the house for awhile until she calms down and she's better when I come back out.  I try to let her know that she won't keep getting my attention if she keeps nipping. 

We do a "check" (perimeter walk) inside the fenced area twice a day and she is with me during chores feeding the ducks.  Normally she doesn't bother them, but if one of them decides to freak out and run or flap around her, now and then she will look like she wants to play with it and I stop her before she even starts to try.  Then promptly take her out of the pen.  Thankfully she listens to that quickly.  Usually she has no problem and will drink their water or eat some of their grain while I'm doing chores and not even look at the ducks no matter how noisy they are being.  She is mostly outside as she is training to become a livestock guardian dog for my ducks.  They are in their predator proof pen except for when I let them forage for a couple hours a day in part of the yard that I gate Bella away from.  I haven't let her walk around with them outside of their pens much yet.  They don't even really like ME near them, so I don't push it. lol  She has a dog house, a kennel in half of my woodshed, and access to the front porch at all times.  I just don't bring her inside because I have 3 inside cats and 2 senior small dogs (the female doesn't like other females) that have their own fenced yard (40x40 area) with a dog door near where Bella's yard and the ducks are.

I know she's still a baby, a 60+lb big baby, and right now I am trying my best to help her learn obedience skills, socialization with touching her feet, putting my fingers in her mouth to take something out, look at her teeth/gums etc.  She may not like it when I take something away, but if it's something she can have, I'll practice "leave it", take it away, then give it back after I look at it.  Otherwise, I say "yucky!" and throw it away.  I try to teach "mine" and "yours" or "Bella's" as well.  But I'm also teaching her things like perimeter walks/checks and getting her used to being around the ducks, etc.  She's usually ok with leave it and "yucky!" means she doesn't get to keep it.  But sometimes she gets mad about it and throws a tantrum if she doesn't get to keep it.

I have no intention of rehoming her.  Since the puppy teeth have been changing to adult, clothes are getting torn less thankfully, but it would be nice to not have bruises on my arms and legs.  Thankfully she does have bite inhibition, but still.  Ouch.  She reacted the same way with the "yip" noises as Penelope's dog.  Sees it as a challenge.  She does that at times if I say "No!" sternly as well.  When off-leash I try corrections in a progression like "Look, Noise, Charge, Touch, Pin" to get her to calm down if I can't get away from her and into the house or something easily and she's escalating.

Sometimes I get stern when she starts nipping while out on the long lead and she starts to ramp up her nipping.  So if I can, I try more just to remain as calm as possible and hold her away with the leash and tell her "No bite" and "Stop".  She seems to calm down faster when I can remain calmer during corrections.  Sometimes it is very hard to do when you're getting bruises, but I do try!

I bought her a pool and filled it with sand to be able to hide treats and toys in it.  I'm going to try that soon to help with mental exercise.  She has tons of toys, bones, ropes, etc to play with as well.  I can't do "brain" plastic toys with the little food compartments with her because she figures it out, then gets mad at the toy and wants to destroy it.  LOL  I'm thinking of trying a snuffle mat soon, but I'd like to hide things in the sand since she loves to dig.  I might have to kennel her, go hide things, then take her to the sand and tell her to "Find it!" to get her wearing out a bit more that way.  I read you don't want to walk the large breeds too much too young because of their developing joints.  So I'm trying to figure out how to wear her out other ways.

Does it sound like I am mostly on the right track and just need to keep re-enforcing things?  Any other thoughts about what to do in the moment when she's "throwing a tantrum" and nipping me all over?

I'll be Gandalf if I have to, but would rather not have to juggle a staff too.  Though I did just buy a hiking belt to be able to clip her long steel cable lead to when we're walking so I guess I have a hand free.  LOL

Thanks so much for your help and thoughts in advance!

Erin

[Adrienne Farricelli]

Hi Erin, 

Welcome to the forums! I am sorry to hear that you're dealing with lots of mouthing, and several other behaviors. Over all, it seems like she's dealing with frustration and this is something that will need tackled early taking a multi-pronged approach, in a step-by-step, systematic manner. 

Please see my observations in non-bold. 

I am going through a similar situation with my Anatolian Shepherd/Maremma Sheepdog Bella.  She is also almost 6 months old and over 60lbs.  She doesn't bite/nip on me constantly, but does like to mouth a lot.  I try to praise the heck out of licking to get her to give "kissies" more.  But so far she prefer mouthing more.  She does more biting/nipping mostly when she wants to try to escalate to play fight (as if I'm another dog) or is doing what I call "throwing a tantrum" because of being corrected from doing something she shouldn't.  (digging holes looking for moles, or trying to eat deer poop out in the field on our long line leash walks.)

At 6 months, Bella is now approaching the adolescent stage. Livestock guardians, as you already know are slow to mature, so you may see many pup behaviors, but caged in a large body. This is a time of many challenging behaviors, and in some cases, they may get pretty overwhelming. Here is a general read about what happens during adolescence: https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/survive-dogs-adolescent-stage/

You are on the right track in praising a whole lot the licking. If she's praise driven, you should see licking behaviors increase in frequency and strengthen eventually superseding the mouthing.  However, from what  I have read so far, I feel that there is an underlying emotion of frustration and impulsivity that may be driving certain behaviors, so this root cause needs to be addressed. 

Frustration-based nipping episodes are best tackled by taking a multi-faceted approach, here are some general guidelines/tips:

 

1) Provide outlets for her instinctive needs. For example, provide her with a digging spot where she can dig to her heart's content. You can even put digging on cue, by pointing to it and telling her to go "find stuff!" that you have previously buried under. Oh, I see now that you are actually planning on that! That's awesome! 

 

2) Encourage independent play through brain games and food puzzles. 

Treasure hunts https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/brain-training/elementary/the-treasure-hunt/

the Muffin Game https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/brain-training/elementary/the-muffin-game/

Kong wobbler, stuffed Kongs, Topplers,  Lickimats etc.  If she's prone to getting frustrated, you will need to make these extra easy to empty initially, gradually increasing difficulty as she learns better impulse control. 

 

3) Avoid corrections as much as possible. Focus on preempting undesirable behaviors, training what you would like her to do using replacement behaviors.  Corrections for frustration and arousal-related behaviors is like adding fuel to the fire. Risks doing more harm than good. We need to work on lessening her struggles rather than adding to them. So it's best to tell her what you would like her to do instead and praise/reward those generously.

 

Behaviors that are reinforced, repeat and strengthen, especially if you are able to strategically make engaging in these far more rewarding than engaging in the undesirable behavior. For example, practice working on "leave its" rather than pulling her away, and reward her with something she absolutely loves. Here is the guide for training leave it: https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/brain-training/obedience-101/take-leave-it/

 

4) Preempt undesirable behaviors as much as possible. This means implement management so that you prevent rehearsal of the problematic behaviors you don't want.  This means, if you see deer poop ahead, walk her at a distance from it, or even better, go on a deer poop patrol removing it from the path you're planning on walking. 

 

5) Consider challenges. When dogs are kept outdoors for most of the time, they are free to do what they like, so they will likely struggle and feel frustrated when we expect them to do what we want. For example, if she's off leash eating poop when she feels like it, she'll likely feel frustrated being on leash and being refrained from eating deer poop. 

 

So if we put her on leash, we need to find ways to make it extra rewarding along with the training. I used to walk a dog who was free over 10 acres of land and ate all the poop he wanted, when we walked by poop, on a short leash he would manifest his frustration by scratching his neck, coincidentally right by the collar.

 

We worked through this by practicing "leave its" using the highest value treats he drooled buckets for, and soon his behavior morphed from wanting to eat poop, to signaling me when he found poop in hopes of getting a tasty treat. 

 

More about poop eating is covered here: https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/eating-poop/ Management is the best option for this, and this often means erecting a fence (but I see you have this planned). 

 

6) Provide games that allow outlets for her need to play, but without physically involving you. Consider flirt poles or long tug toys, kibble toss game (when you notice her approaching you with an intent to bite, toss a kibble *before* she has the chance to latch on. Once latched on, it's difficult to redirect them and we don't want to form any behavior chains (dog bites on purpose for getting a treat tossed afterward).  

 

7) Practice impulse control exercises to increase her frustration tolerance. You need to take really tiny steps so to prevent frustration. So reward every little small step in the desired direction. https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/impulse-control-frustration-tolerance/

 

8. Redirect when you end training so that no frustration builds up. Last adolescent dog who got easily frustrated, would start nipping when we were done training, so I would end the session by letting him have a Kong stuffed with his wet kibble that was frozen beforehand.

 

9. Careful with ignoring behaviors that were previously reinforced. Ignoring can lead to the phenomenon of extinction bursts, which is increased frustration where the pup's behavior increases in frequency, becomes more variable, intensifies or new behaviors surface. This can be risky with dogs who tend to mouth, because it may cause them to mouth harder. 

I have found that if I walk with a large walking stick in my fenced in half acre with her, she doesn't try to nip/bite me.  Or if she does, I place the walking stick between us and she stays back (she might nip towards the stick a few times, then will chase her own tail or something to expend her energy that way).  Kind of like a shepherd with a staff?  I *never* hit her with it or anything.  It's just the act of putting it between us that keeps her back when we are off leash.  Kind of like a flirt pole I guess?  Is there anything wrong with walking with a big stick/staff and putting it between us like this?

This really depends on how she perceives the stick. Some dogs are wary of large items and become fearful of them. Every time a behavior reduces, we should consider whether the dog is perceiving it as a form of punishment. However, it sounds like she still tries to nip when around it, so she may not be really fearful of it,  she may just perceive it as a boundary not to cross. Yet, we are seeing that this measure frustrates her enough  as she cannot reach her goal (nipping you) so that it triggers a frustration response/displacement behavior of circling/ tail chasing. 

So when we see frustrated behaviors, we need to take notice and find ways to reduce that. We don't want to encourage certain displacement behaviors like chasing the tail because these repetitive actions sometimes can become compulsive, which are pretty difficult to eradicate often requiring behavior modification and meds. 

So it would be ideal engaging her in a different way. You can try a flirt pole versus a stick at least she gets something to mouth and mouthing helps release tension, allowing a sense of closure, versus getting frustrated and attempting to grab her tail which may be difficult to grasp and may lead to a behavior vacuum  (the same reason dogs get compulsive over laser pointers, they never get to grab it and this leads to a build up of frustration). 

Another option may be engaging her in a treat/kibble toss game, where the moment you notice her approach you with an intent to mouth (remember to catch her *before*) you toss a few kibble and/or treats, and prompt her to search for them. Once she gets good at this, you may even insert an operant behavior such as asking for a sit or hand target before tossing the treat. 

In the field by the house I haven't fenced in yet (planning to fence in around 2 acres around the property next year), I walk her nightly on a long line (50ft) in the area and for the most part she does great.  But if she tries to get into something I don't want her to and I lead/pull her away (such as deer poop) she will usually charge me and start "throwing a tantrum". 

I am glad that you'll be erecting a fence. This should hopefully solve the deer poop eating behavior so something less to worry about. It would be great if this could be done sooner than later. Eating deer poop can cause GI problems, and sometimes deer may eat things that may be toxic to dogs. 

 Not aggressive at all.  Just nipping at my legs, butt, clothes, hands.  I see it like she's complaining I didn't let her do what she wanted so she's trying to bully me into letting her do it and/or telling me how upset she is for not letting her do the thing.  She mostly does this kind of behavior if I'm not letting her do something she wants to do, or stopping her from doing something she wants to do when we're out on the long line.  

I usually choke up on the leash and/or grab her collar and hold her away from me as much as possible until she calms down and repeat "No bite!!" "Stop!" until she wears out and stops and sits calmly, then praise for being "nice" and sitting calmly. 

 After a little rest, she's fine again and ready to keep walking.  The only thing I haven't tried yet is bringing my walking stick with me while out on the leash too.  What am I becoming now, Gandalf the Grey??  LOL 
Any other ideas to get her to stop throwing a tantrum when she's kept from doing something she wants to do? 

Should I just accept I am a shepherd and need to always keep my staff with me now or at least until she's 2 years old and more mature? lol

For other things when I tell her no, leave it, etc like when she looks like she is going to try to play with the ducks, for instance, she stops right away and has no problem with learning the boundary.  She only throws a tantrum on a correction when it's doing something she REALLY wanted to do (digging holes and eating deer poop for instance) 

or if I'm standing talking to my mom and she wants to keep walking, she'll come over and start nipping me or my mom or both of us all over.  We tell her no in a stern voice and sometimes she'll roll on her back to show she's submitting, but keep kicking and nipping at us as she does it.  

Usually I have to choke up on her leash and/or grab her collar to hold her away until she calms again(she's usually twisting around and trying to nip/bite and/or get away to nip/bite for a minute or two at this point).. I keep telling her "No bite!" and "Stop!"  She knows "nice" so sometimes I try "Be nice" too.

Yesterday I tried running through all of her obedience training that we practice twice every day (sit, lay, shake, look at me, etc) and that took her focus and stopped her for a minute, but then she remembered she was being a butt before and started throwing a fit again after performing her training tricks.

She is struggling with the duration. She does show the ability to focus on you, but not for that long. Try giving her something to chew on while you're talking, a hand-made Kong, kibble/treat tosses/ treasure hunts.

 Also, try to keep the talks brief for now, and end them on a positive note to set her for success. For example, you start talking, then ask her to perform the behaviors (sit, lay, shake etc) and then end the talk and resume walking. 

You gradually increase duration but make sure to mix in shorter talks so that she doesn't detect an increase in difficulty. 

If we're closer to the house and in the fenced area and off leash and she starts nipping a bunch and won't stop, I'll usually go in the house for awhile until she calms down and she's better when I come back out.  I try to let her know that she won't keep getting my attention if she keeps nipping.  We do a "check" (perimeter walk) inside the fenced area twice a day and she is with me during chores feeding the ducks.  Normally she doesn't bother them, but if one of them decides to freak out and run or flap around her, now and then she will look like she wants to play with it and I stop her before she even starts to try. Then promptly take her out of the pen.  Thankfully she listens to that quickly. 

 A time out carried out in a timely matter, where you are the one leaving rather than having her move to a different area is preferable in these cases, as it doesn't involve physically restraining her. It needs to be clear that your departure is contingent upon her mouthing behavior, and your staying is contingent upon her behaving in desirable ways. However, be watchful for signs of frustration when you leave (does she start circling? biting her tail? if so, we may need a different less frustration building intervention).

I know she's still a baby, a 60+lb big baby, and right now I am trying my best to help her learn obedience skills, socialization with touching her feet, putting my fingers in her mouth to take something out, look at her teeth/gums etc. She may not like it when I take something away, but if it's something she can have, I'll practice "leave it", take it away, then give it back after I look at it. Otherwise, I say "yucky!" and throw it away.  

I try to teach "mine" and "yours" or "Bella's" as well.  But I'm also teaching her things like perimeter walks/checks and getting her used to being around the ducks, etc.  She's usually ok with leave it and "yucky!" means she doesn't get to keep it.  But sometimes she gets mad about it and throws a tantrum if she doesn't get to keep it.

I would add some sort of reward for training this, you don't want to take this for granted and you want to form positive associations toprevent the onset of resource guarding. So I would practice mouth inspections and taking something away and replace it with something yummy. This is to build enough positive associations, so that that day, when we may not have something yummy to replace, she'll be compliant and we can praise lavishly and pet her and tell her how good she was, and then practice more with yummy exchanges to maintain the behavior. 

More about preventing resource guarding and getting things out of the mouth is covered here: https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/the-importance-of-preventing-resource-guarding-in-puppies/

However, I would aim to train drop it as a first line of option as there's always a risk for bites when trying to remove something from the mouth, and if not bites, the dog may learn to keep the jaws clenched tight making the item difficult to remove if we aren't keeping up with the positive associations. Drop it is covered here:

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/brain-training/obedience-101/drop-it/

More about the process of touching body parts is using desensitization and counterconditioning is covered under the puppy handling exercises: https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/exercises-to-teach-puppies-to-tolerate-touch/

I have no intention of rehoming her.  Since the puppy teeth have been changing to adult, clothes are getting torn less thankfully, but it would be nice to not have bruises on my arms and legs.  Thankfully she does have bite inhibition, but still.  Ouch.  She reacted the same way with the "yip" noises as Penelope's dog.  Sees it as a challenge.

  She does that at times if I say "No!" sternly as well.  When off-leash I try corrections in a progression like "Look, Noise, Charge, Touch, Pin" to get her to calm down if I can't get away from her and into the house or something easily and she's escalating.

Sometimes I get stern when she starts nipping while out on the long lead and she starts to ramp up her nipping.  So if I can, I try more just to remain as calm as possible and hold her away with the leash and tell her "No bite" and "Stop".  She seems to calm down faster when I can remain calmer during corrections.  Sometimes it is very hard to do when you're getting bruises, but I do try!

I bought her a pool and filled it with sand to be able to hide treats and toys in it.  I'm going to try that soon to help with mental exercise.  She has tons of toys, bones, ropes, etc to play with as well.  I can't do "brain" plastic toys with the little food compartments with her because she figures it out, then gets mad at the toy and wants to destroy it.  LOL  

The muffin tin game can work, Kong Wobbler is pretty strong but need to gradually teach her to not get frustrated and bite it, by making filling it a lot so that kibble easily flows out. 

I'm thinking of trying a snuffle mat soon, but I'd like to hide things in the sand since she loves to dig.  I might have to kennel her, go hide things, then take her to the sand and tell her to "Find it!" to get her wearing out a bit more that way.  

I read you don't want to walk the large breeds too much too young because of their developing joints.  So I'm trying to figure out how to wear her out other ways.

Check with your vet on this (puppy growth plates/joints) as he/she can give you a better ballpark figure on how much is too much for her age. But for sure, more brain games, training (clicker training through free shaping exercises are great for building frustration tolerance) and puzzles will help drain her energy. 

Does it sound like I am mostly on the right track and just need to keep re-enforcing things?  Any other thoughts about what to do in the moment when she's "throwing a tantrum" and nipping me all over?

I'll be Gandalf if I have to, but would rather not have to juggle a staff too.  Though I did just buy a hiking belt to be able to clip her long steel cable lead to when we're walking so I guess I have a hand free.  LOL

You are on the right track in capturing desired behaviors such as licking and praising/rewarding those. I would aim to find ways to avoid collar grabs, and start working on creating positive associations with those so that she doesn't start mouthing/possibly acting defensive when she senses you're about to grasp the collar. This is covered in the recall section towards the end, you may need more work on this, since she's not a blank slate:  https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/brain-training/obedience-101/recall/

Another option that I learned from working with a shelter is sliding a PVC pipe on a leash. This makes the leash less flexible and provides more distance so that it's more difficult for the dog to reach us to nip us. 

This may be an option to combine with using leave its, kibble/treat toss games, and praising rewarding for engaging in replacement behaviors. 

As it happens in people, frustration is a negative emotional state which tends to occur when they are prevented from accessing something that they may find reinforcing.  It's important to recognize and accept what frustration really is and remove any inappropriate labeling such as a dog being "stubborn," or "challenging me" which only harms the dog and owner relationship. 

Synonyms of frustration include words such as disheartening, discontentment or even dispiritedness. Just think that the antonym of frustration is satisfaction and happiness.  This goes to explain how a puppy isn't really being stubborn or trying to challenge. The emotional turmoil is simply prompted by access to something being denied or some expectation not being met. The puppy is simply undergoing a negative emotional state and hasn't had the opportunity to master any coping mechanisms as of yet. 

We typically see frustrated behaviors in dogs with a strong seeking system/genetics, dogs who are very hungry, young dogs who haven't learn how to cope with frustration, dogs who are tired, cranky and in pain, dogs used to doing what they want  most of the time (outdoor dogs), dogs with a history of obtaining what they want when acting frustrated. 

Frustration, left untreated or tackled in the wrong way, may escalate in further problems such as redirected aggression, displacement behaviors, repetitive behaviors and compulsive disorders. When a dog is intensely frustrated, it can impair their cognitive abilities, making it difficult for them to learn. For a good part, young pups and adolescent dogs struggle to some extent with frustration and impulse control, some more, some less.  

As you may know, livestock guardians are different from other dogs. They were selectively bred for being independent thinkers. If we want to train them certain tasks, we need to motivate them because they may feel it's not important from their point of view as they have more important tasks to do (patrolling, checking perimeters, protecting). These dogs take their jobs very seriously and may find attending to our cues to sit, down, stay etc. as redundant and boring unless we prove them otherwise through the use of positive reinforcement. 

I hope this helps, please let me know if you have any further questions, and keep us posted on how things go!

Disclaimer: behavior modification comes with risks. If your puppy or dog shows signs of potential aggression (lunging, barking, growling, snapping, biting) for safety, please consult with a dog behavior professional who uses force-free behavior modification techniques (no shock, prongs, or physical corrections) for direct in-person guidance. Articles, videos and general info found in the forums or course (or any online source) are not meant to replace in-person training/instruction. By using this course and forum, you are waiving any liability claims or other type of claims related to any dogs' behavior against you or others.

[ERIN BOND]

Thank you so much for your reply!  I sadly did not get a notification of the reply for some reason.  I'm going to have to stay logged in to the forum and watch more closely.  (Oh.. I just found the little toggle at the bottom to "Follow topic".  I didn't realize I had to do that on my own post.  Oops!)

Sorry it took so long for me to get back with you!  I'm going to read through everything you've replied with and see where I can strengthen her mental stimulating play some more.  I did try the sandbox!  It worked a couple of times, but then she stopped being as interested in going to look for treats and things and wouldn't really engage much if they were buried more than an inch deep and she couldn't easily just find them lying around the box.  I haven't tried a snuffle mat yet, but did try one of those toys with the treats hidden under things.  She did great with it, but then at the end wanted to tear it apart looking for more treats! lol (and that was when she was like 12 weeks old)

I agree about the potential aggression issues.  So far she's never lunged aggressively at me with any sort of attitude like that.  It's all always been mouthing/nipping like as if she's just really wanting to play fight/tussle.  She puts her mouth on me when frustrated when she's got that "tantrum" attitude for being taken away from something she wants or when wanting to play fight, but ALWAYS bite inhibited (even if she leaves bruises because I just have sensitive skin unfortunately).  Her attitude is always more like "Come on mom, play fight!" and I say no and she does it again.  She doesn't want to give up easily when she starts that.  Grabs my hand/arm/wrist or nips me in the butt or leg.  Sometimes I can redirect her to a different training command, but if I have a large stick available and can put it between us she will either bite on that or stop nipping at me at least.  Again I've never tried to hit her with a stick of course!  It's always been more of a barrier she respects right away for whatever reason. (thankfully)  I don't know if there's a genetic respect of a large staff with shepherds or what, but it does help when I remember to have one nearby when she's in one of those tantrum or trying to get me to play fight modes. 🙂

 

 

 

[ERIN BOND]

1.  Sandbox worked for a bit, but then she stopped wanting to try very hard to dig and find treats.  She would lose interest if they weren't just laid around on top of the dirt or very shallow so she could basically see it sticking out of the sand.

2. She hates anything rubber unfortunately (like kongs), BUT I have been able to get her some cow hooves from tractor supply and fill those with cream cheese and freeze them.  She gets one of those at night and loves cream cheese thankfully!
    I am definitely thinking of trying a lick mat.  I tried one of the games with the treats hidden under boxes or slider things when she was about 12 weeks old and she got all the treats, then got frustrated with the toy itself and started trying to tear it apart looking for more treats.
    
3.  Yes, I've been trying to avoid corrections, definitely!  I've noticed she's better if I can get her redirected or put a large stick between us as I tell her no.  Like a reminder to stop nipping at me.  I agree about the corrections for frustration adding fuel to the fire!  I can definitely see where those have done that.
    She's never acted afraid of the stick.  Most times she'll just bite on it, or chase her tail or something and stop biting on me.  
    We have actually worked on leave it since she was little.  She will let me take things from her mouth, put my fingers in and take them out.  I practice with bones she likes, look at it, and give it back.  That way she is more likely to let me take things.  Sometimes she is a little stubborn at first, but will let me take things after I say "leave it" a few times.
    I am recently trying to work on "drop it" with her ball and get her to let it go if she wants me to toss the ball.  She will fetch a ball a few times before she's bored with it for the day so I only get to practice this a few times a day, but she's smart so hopefully it will start kicking in quickly.

        I also just started teaching her "touch" to get her to nose my palm on command.  She learns pretty quickly thankfully.

4.  Agreed with trying to keep her away from the deer poop altogether.  Not as easy when the deer frequent my acreage a lot, but I did start steering clear of areas where I knew the piles were!

5.  Oh, I like that thought!  Practicing leave it with her favorite treats around something like poop so she will start to signal it for a treat instead of going after it. (yes the multi acreage fencing will definitely help cut down on deer poop too.  I can't wait!)

6.  I am going to have to start carrying extra treats in different pockets.  She already knows I tend to carry treats in at least one pocket and sometimes will try to chew on my jacket looking for one. lol
But I like the concept of tossing a treat on the ground away from me when I see her start to decide she's going to get excited and mouth on me.  I am definitely going to start trying that!  Redirect before she gets a chance to start the biting game.

7.  I'll definitely take a look at the impulse control article!

8.  That is a thought too!  She definitely gets more nippy after training when she knows I am going to go inside to get my shoes changed to leave for work.  Not every time, but usually.  I might definitely have to try another frozen cream cheese cow hoof at the end of the morning perimeter walk and training.  
Maybe start taking it out in a different pocket and in a baggie so she can't smell it as much and try to eat my coat.  LOL  But be able to get her to sit and take it before she starts getting frustrated that she knows training time or play time is over for now.

Thank you for the suggestion about the piece of PVC pipe on walks!  I might try that when out in the field as an extra safety when out there.  I can't always hold her far enough away from me when she acts out and I want to be able to get her to stop without having to really try to do corrections since I agree they tend to escalate things.

I do have 1/2 acre fenced in for her now!  We do our leash walks in the field less lately because she has more room to run.  Next spring we will be fencing in around 2 more acres, but I was at least able to get 1/2 acre done for now to give her running room.
It sounds like I'm going to have to try keeping treats in baggies and in different pockets.  She knows I keep some in my pockets when it's time for training.  And I am going to try keeping a frozen cream cheese cow hoof in my pocket to end morning perimeter walks/training sessions.

I will read your article on working on frustration/impulse control too.  I'm very interested in that!  I think it sounds promising for her.

I will report back on how things are going more soon!
Thanks again,
Erin

[Adrienne Farricelli]

Thank you so much for your reply!  I sadly did not get a notification of the reply for some reason.  I'm going to have to stay logged in to the forum and watch more closely.  (Oh.. I just found the little toggle at the bottom to "Follow topic".  I didn't realize I had to do that on my own post.  Oops!) Sorry it took so long for me to get back with you! 

So sorry to hear you have been waiting so long. Notifications for forums can be hit and miss sometimes and some may go into spam folders. I find it works best to just visit the forums. 

 

 I'm going to read through everything you've replied with and see where I can strengthen her mental stimulating play some more.  I did try the sandbox!  It worked a couple of times, but then she stopped being as interested in going to look for treats and things and wouldn't really engage much if they were buried more than an inch deep and she couldn't easily just find them lying around the box. 

 

In these cases, if the dog gives up because finds the exercise/task too difficult, it helps to keep it  easy and worthy with high rewards. Once it establishes a stronger reinforcement history, and we increase motivation, we can try placing them gradually a bit deeper, maybe starting with some lower value items closer to the surface, and some higher value items a little deeper. 

 

 I haven't tried a snuffle mat yet, but did try one of those toys with the treats hidden under things.  She did great with it, but then at the end wanted to tear it apart looking for more treats! lol (and that was when she was like 12 weeks old)

 

In this case, you want to remove access to the toy before she has a chance to destroy it. Once the toy is devoid of any treats, simply, swap it with a handful of tossed kibble/treats or a tossed cookie. Toss them in the opposite direction and retrieve the toy. It is best to invest in puzzle toys that are quite durable (like a Kong Wobbler) as these withstand better teeth trying to get any food remnants from the toy. 

 

I agree about the potential aggression issues.  So far she's never lunged aggressively at me with any sort of attitude like that.  It's all always been mouthing/nipping like as if she's just really wanting to play fight/tussle. She puts her mouth on me when frustrated when she's got that "tantrum" attitude for being  taken away from something she wants or when wanting to play fight, but ALWAYS bite inhibited (even if she leaves bruises because I just have sensitive skin unfortunately). Her attitude is always more like "Come on mom, play fight!" and I say no and she does it again.  She doesn't want to give up easily when she starts that.

  

It's good that you haven't noticed any signs of aggression and that it seems more like play. The ultimate goal should be going to the root of the problem, that is, preventing so much frustration to build up in the first place. 

 

So when taking her away from something, make it rewarding so no frustration builds up. For example, redirect her at the earliest signs,

creating a fluent response to a smacking sound. https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/the-airplane-game/the-smacking-sound/

Ask for sits and toss a kibble to reward. Offer activities that surpass in value her enjoyment of  physically engaging with you. 

 

Of course, the ultimate goal is to build up her frustration tolerance so we'll do that in the background, but at the spur of the 

moment, find a way to divert her from physically engaging with you such as tossing a treat so no aversive feelings of frustration build up and she doesn't rehearse undesirable nipping behavior. 

 

Grabs my hand/arm/wrist or nips me in the butt or leg.  Sometimes I can redirect her to a different training command, but if I have a large stick available and can put it between us she will either bite on that or stop nipping at me at least.  Again I've never tried to hit her with a stick of course!  It's always been more of a barrier she respects right away for whatever reason. (thankfully)  I don't know if there's a genetic respect of a large staff with shepherds or what, but it does help when I remember to have one nearby when she's in one of those tantrum or trying to get me to play fight modes. 🙂

 

It can be that you're looking at a behavior chain, where undesirable behaviors are inadvertently reinforced. In other words, she's likely hoping for a reaction from you, so when she nips and you place the stick in between, if she bites that, that may qualify as interaction, so it can happen that she purposely starts nipping because that means you'll offer the stick, which is like an extension of your arm and something fun to chew. 

 

In these cases again, it's best to avoid getting her into this frustrated mindset, and if she does, catching her *before* she has a chance to start physically engaging with you. 

 

She hates anything rubber unfortunately (like kongs), BUT I have been able to get her some cow hooves from tractor supply and fill those with cream cheese and freeze them.  She gets one of those at night and loves cream cheese thankfully!

 

Careful as cow hooves have been known for causing dental fractures.

 

When you say she "hates rubber" what do you mean exactly? Does she not want to engage with the toy? She won't lick anything smeared in it? As always, whatever we place in it initially needs to be easy to remove, if too challenging she may give up. Baby steps are needed with dogs who get frustrated easily and give up. 

 

 I am definitely thinking of trying a lick mat.  I tried one of the games with the treats hidden under boxes or slider things when she was about 12 weeks old and she got all the treats, then got frustrated with the toy itself and started trying to tear it apart looking for more treats.

 

  Again, try taking it away before she gets to rehearse frustrated behaviors.  Always trade the toy with something else.

 

Yes, I've been trying to avoid corrections, definitely!  I've noticed she's better if I can get her redirected or put a large stick between us as I tell her no.  Like a reminder to stop nipping at me.  I agree about the corrections for frustration adding fuel to the fire!  I can definitely see where those have done that.

 

"No" often doesn't provide much info, they seem to do better when we tell them what we would like them to do instead. I have found treat/kibble toss game useful, ideally inserting a sit and making it extra fun. We have to feed them anyhow, so why not put their kibble to good use rather than letting them wolf it down in a food bowl withing seconds? https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/adriennes-picks/top-5-dog-feeding-toys/

 

 She's never acted afraid of the stick.  Most times she'll just bite on it, or chase her tail or something and stop biting on me.  We have actually worked on leave it since she was little. She will let me take things from her mouth, put my fingers in and take them out.  I practice with bones she likes, look at it, and give it back.  That way she is more likely to let me take things.  Sometimes she is a little stubborn at first, but will let me take things after I say "leave it" a few times.

 

Taking things away and removing items from the mouth needs to be always be followed by something positive. I didn't see mentioned any trading or use of high value rewards, so just mentioning this in case. See trading and mouth inspections (drop it always better than mouth removals as these can carry some elements of risk, depending on the dog or item the dog has.

 https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/the-importance-of-preventing-resource-guarding-in-puppies/

    I am recently trying to work on "drop it" with her ball and get her to let it go if she wants me to toss the ball.  She will fetch a ball a few times before she's bored with it for the day so I only get to practice this a few times a day, but she's smart so hopefully it will start kicking in quickly.      I also just started teaching her "touch" to get her to nose my palm on command.  She learns pretty quickly thankfully.

That's awesome! The "touch" is referred to as targeting in the course, you can find more about it here:

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/brain-training/preschool/targeting/

 Agreed with trying to keep her away from the deer poop altogether.  Not as easy when the deer frequent my acreage a lot, but I did start steering clear of areas where I knew the piles were!

I hear you! I have had the problem of rabbit poop instead and it's terribly difficult spotting these tiny droppings! 

  Oh, I like that thought!  Practicing leave it with her favorite treats around something like poop so she will start to signal it for a treat instead of going after it. (yes the multi acreage fencing will definitely help cut down on deer poop too.  I can't wait!)

Fencing can provide loads of peace of mind on several fronts. I am glad that's in the planning. 

 I am going to have to start carrying extra treats in different pockets.  She already knows I tend to carry treats in at least one pocket and sometimes will try to chew on my jacket looking for one. lol But I like the concept of tossing a treat on the ground away from me when I see her start to decide she's going to get excited and mouth on me.  I am definitely going to start trying that!  Redirect before she gets a chance to start the biting game.

Treat tossing has worked very nicely for me with several nippy dogs. Catching them *before* makes the whole difference. As the concept sinks in, you can then add a sit and at some point you may notice they start offering that voluntarily. As always, I start this training indoors, and then carry it over outdoors by a porch/deck. 

7.  I'll definitely take a look at the impulse control article!

This can help a lot in creating a foundation of better frustration tolerance/impulse control. 

8.  That is a thought too!  She definitely gets more nippy after training when she knows I am going to go inside to get my shoes changed to leave for work.  Not every time, but usually.  I might definitely have to try another frozen cream cheese cow hoof at the end of the morning perimeter walk and training.  

Toppl by West Paw may offer a safer alternative to the cow hooves. The concept and shape are quite similar. 

Maybe start taking it out in a different pocket and in a baggie so she can't smell it as much and try to eat my coat.  LOL  But be able to get her to sit and take it before she starts getting frustrated that she knows training time or play time is over for now.

They recently also made a smell proof dog training bag. It's made by Whager. 

Thank you for the suggestion about the piece of PVC pipe on walks!  I might try that when out in the field as an extra safety when out there.  I can't always hold her far enough away from me when she acts out and I want to be able to get her to stop without having to really try to do corrections since I agree they tend to escalate things.

I do have 1/2 acre fenced in for her now!  We do our leash walks in the field less lately because she has more room to run.  Next spring we will be fencing in around 2 more acres, but I was at least able to get 1/2 acre done for now to give her running room.
It sounds like I'm going to have to try keeping treats in baggies and in different pockets.  She knows I keep some in my pockets when it's time for training.  And I am going to try keeping a frozen cream cheese cow hoof in my pocket to end morning perimeter walks/training sessions.

I will read your article on working on frustration/impulse control too.  I'm very interested in that!  I think it sounds promising for her.

I will report back on how things are going more soon!
Thanks again,

Great! Keep us posted on how things go!

Happy training!

Adrienne

 

[ROGER SAUMURE]

Hi I have a Maremma about 7 months old and about 70 lbs.  Sounds like we have a very similar situation.  We do the perimeter walks and training very similar to the situation you describe.  And I get/got all the same kind of mouthy behaviors.  Sometimes in the evening - he is so full of piss and vinegar that he will run in large circles at full speed.  Its fun to watch actually.  He will also come running at me full speed and just touch my shoulder with his nose.  Thankfully he will not do this with anyone else as it would scare the bejesus out of them.  He spends the nights inside the house so after blowing off some steam he is ready to settle down. 

To stop the mouthing nipping behavior, as we head out for our walk, I point to one of his toys and tell him "take it". Right now his favorite is a Chuck It frisbee.  As long as he has a job to do - carrying something around - he never mouths or nips. Sometimes I just find a stick.  And sometimes he finds his own stick - like the one last night that was about 4 ft and almost as thick as my wrist LOL.  I have even folded up my leash and had him carry that.

He really likes playing fetch and has learned to put the frisbee in my hand before releasing it.  When he drops the frisbee at my feet, I tell him to "take it" and he will pick it up and hand it to me.  I also have the Chuck It tennis ball launcher and he is really good with fetching and returning but the frisbee seems to hold his interest longer and is easier for him to place directly in my hand.

The mouthing / nipping behavior would increase as we were walking back to the house.  He just wants to play all the time so we end our little walks with a game of tug - another of his favorites.  Now instead of walking with me to the house he will stop short and wait for his game of tug LOL.

For me the frisbee has worked really well, not just for retrieves, but its something he likes carrying around.  If he has something he likes in his mouth, he is not going to be doing a lot of nipping.

I hear you about the deer poop - that can be a distraction.  We need to do a refresher on the leave it.  We have a bunch of boulders on the perimeter of the field we walk/train in.  I have been teaching him to jump up on the boulders - something he really likes to do.  Then we started working them in sequence - running from one to the next.  Unfortunately my treat bag was open and I ended up leaving a trail of treats.  It took him a couple of days to finally realize he had gotten them all LOL

Overall, I can't complain about his behaviors, actually I am really happy.  Most people who meet him can't believe how well behaved he is.