Playing chase in the house

[jbcovell]

We sometimes play a game with our dog in the house where she has a toy and we play chase her around to get it. She usually comes outside when we call her. However, when she wants to eat the moss in the grass, she doesn't come. If we try to go get her she runs around. I am wondering if the game inside is causing problems outside when we need her to stop eating the moss and bark from the garden too and are telling her to come.

Edited January 31, 2019 by jbcovell
Add that we are calling sasha to come

[JMFS]

Dogs Love chase. Being the chasee or the chaser is fun for them. I have dog cows myself - we must have the most delicious grass in all the world for as much as these guys graze.

 

When you call Sasha outside and she doesn't come, then what do you do? If you're chasing after her then I'm willing to bet that she thinks it's a game. Gertie did the same thing and it's a trap we All fall into at some point. In fact, it's a stumbling block of us with fetch. With Gertie when it's a business trip outside (potty) I keep her on a 50 ft lead. She's come to learn that the lead means get your task completed and then we're going right back inside. I test her once in a while off lead and as long as she finishes up and comes back inside she can be off lead, but as soon as she runs around like a mad dog she goes right back on lead for another few days. It's a task of rinse and repeat and nearly every trainer agrees that recall is an ongoing training task. Even my brother with his über trained-in-Germany-by-the-best-in-the-world trainers hunting dog admitted that Gordo peaces out and comes back when he feels like it. Gordo can run 3 miles in 11 minutes (I think that's what it was - it was amazing for sure) and my brother has a scary neighbor who's threatened to shoot Gordo so it's something he's going to have to get under control. Yet one more reason why recall is so important.

 

Anyway, that's just to illustrate that we All have issues with recall. :) When I take Gertie out off lead I'll also bring a bag or my "upcycled" creamer container full of treats. These both make a good deal of noise when I shake them and they're visible so when Gertie is feeling like she has her big girl pants on and wants to show me she's her own dog I make some noise and she comes running. That didn't happen overnight. We started in the kitchen with stay and come. I would have her stay and I'd walk around the island then call her, give her a treat, have her stay, repeat. Then I increased the distance to the living room and each time she mastered the new room I'd add another.

 

Eventually we moved the game outside. This is where the lead is handy because there are Lots of distractions outside. Squirrels in particular for us. Squirrels are my bane. I have come to loathe squirrels. I would give her 10 feet of lead and put her in a stay, walk away, call, treat. Repeat the process until we eventually moved to off lead and we're still working on that one.

 

Some trainers are going to tell you your dog should come no matter what and without reward. Smart trainers will tell you to always have a reward ready. :D Reward doesn't always Have to be food - some dogs consider petting a reward, others love to grab onto a tug toy (watch a flyball video sometime). Gertie and Momo are totally food driven so that's what I use. The thing I learned from Adrienne that was the Hardest part for me: never scold the pooch for coming. If they're scolded for doing what you asked them to, what's the incentive to do it next time? They're going to expect to be scolded, and I don't know about you, but I'd probably avoid that situation. I had to learn how to harness my frustration and that was Tough! It made a world of difference, though, And they don't understand what we're saying so you can still scold them, but in a happy voice. "Who's the bad dog? You are, yes you are!"

 

Here's a post I made about silent whistle training. It works for verbal recall, too, though, just replace the whistle with a word. I like the silent whistle for nighttime trips because I am usually still up at 2 a.m. and I don't want to wake folks by hollering for Gertie. https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/forum/showthread.php?83-Silent-Whistle-Training-(How-I-Did-It)

 

I hope that holds you over until Adrienne imparts her words of wisdom. I just like to help with the things I feel I know something about to get folks started. :)

[Adrienne Farricelli]

Hello Jbcovell,

Jennifer provided you with excellent tips there (I just need to cover an important tidbit about recalls in another post coming shortly).

 

To answer your question, I am so sorry to say that, yes, the game may be causing *some* of the issues are seeing. Formally, the game is called "keep away" and although it may look like a rather innocent game, it has several negative implications. Let's take a closer look why.

 

The keep away game is a game that dogs love to play because it comes natural to them, no learning is required. You'll see puppies and dogs play it without ever being taught it. Requirements involve an owner willing to run a bit (or at least willing to try to) and a dog loving to be chased.

 

Game after game though, there are risks that dogs by default will engage in keep away behavior, even when you are not intentionally playing. It can therefore happen that, at the most inconvenient times such as when you really need to get a hold of your dog, your dog will think you are playing, and the moment you're moving towards your dog, she swerves away. That' exactly what it sounds like when you mention "if we try to go get her she runs around.''

 

On top of this, keep away may also have negative implications on training your dog to relinquish something that she shouldn't have. Many dogs generalize the game by moving from grabbing their own toys to grabbing items they shouldn't have (just for the sake of the game) or that can even be downright dangerous (think batteries or a piece of dark chocolate). Most likely, in such cases, the moment you see your dog grabbing these dangerous items, you will "activate" (look at your dog, talk to your dog, move towards your dog) and your dog will sense this interest as the start of the game. She may therefore run off with the dangerous item, and if she really wants to keep the item out of your reach, she may even decide to gulp it down faster than you can retrieve it (which can lead to toxicity or blockages requiring expensive surgeries) or even resource guard (if she is prone to that) which can be problematic to resolve.

 

If you have played keep away with your dog for quite some time, it may be more challenging training your dog a strong recall, collar grabs and training the "leave it" and "drop it" cues which are life saving cues because they can prevent your dog from accessing harmful things and ingesting them.

 

Rather than playing keep away, I would suggest incorporating training and some other great games that pave the path for a stronger bonding experience, provide mental stimulation and even add some foundational training elements.

 

What are some of these games? For starters, I rather have dog owners being chased by their dogs rather than owners chasing them. Why? Because in many cases, with a dog who doesn't reliably come when called and is in a delicate situation where she can put herself into peril, the dog can be enticed to chase the owner. This strategy has helped many dog owners get their dogs out of a sticky situation.

 

In this case, it's beneficial to therefore do some role reversal. From now on, don't give in to your dog's invitations to chase her, rather, have her chase you! And when she reaches you, praise and reward with some tasty treats. You can even put the game on cue. I liked to say "Come and get me!" in an excited tone of voice and have dogs come running trying to catch me. When your dog catches up on you (most dogs do very quickly, so give yourself a head start with some distance) give your dog a treat, toss a toy or play a game of tug with her. Alway make great things happen so that it becomes irresistible chasing you.

 

Other great training exercises and games are round-robin recalls, making great things happen when the collar is touched, and hide-and-seek (most of these are covered in the Obedience 101 recall section and Brain Training section of the course). Start all games and training indoors at first and practice, practice, practice. Always make great things happen when you call your dog.

 

In your specific circumstance, since moving towards her seems to evoke running away with the toy, you can work on some trading games such as the two-toy game. How do you play this game? You get two toys that are fun to toss and that your dog finds equally appealing. So you grab one toy and toss it. Your dog will likely grab it in her mouth. Now, usually, when she has a toy in her mouth, she would run away with it, but we want to extinguish this habit.

 

So instead of chasing her, when she has a toy in her mouth, try to stimulate her predatory drive by wiggling or bouncing the other toy around until she's eager to have it. At this point, toss it and she should drop the toy she already had in his mouth to get the other toy. Then rinse and repeat this exercise over and over. What is she learning in this case?

 

Well, first off, she is no longer rehearsing the catch-me behavior which is good. On top of that, she's learning that good things happen when she drops the toy in her mouth. If she ever happens to get a hold of something she shouldn't have, make sure to trade it for things higher in value rather than chasing her around. Alternatively, if you have built a strong behavior of having her chase you, you can entice her to chase you "come and get me!" and take her in another room to reward her as you close the door and grab the unlegit to have item or while somebody else grasps the item.

 

For the grass eating, you may have to find out why she is so attracted to it. Some dogs eat grass when they have digestion problems, so this is something to rule out, but some others are just grazers. Usually dogs with digestive issues are more prone to eating the grass frantically with a purpose (to vomit) versus the leisurely grass-eating of grazers who seek the most tender tips. The frantic grass eating of a dog with digestive issues can make dogs too focused on the grass to be able to listen to a recall as they would in normal circumstances.

 

If the grass is treated or sprayed with chemicals, of course the practice of leisurely grass eating should be avoided at best. A well-trained leave-it cue can interrupt her in the tracks (before she gets to eat) and should be followed by distracting her with a fun game (how about a treasure hunt game!) or a goodie like a stuffed Kong eaten by the deck for longer-lasting results (so that she doesn't just eat a treat and go straight back to grass eating).

 

As a general rule of thumb: if you want to call your dog to stop her from an activity your dog enjoys (like eating grass) you must make sure to give a high enough reward that surpasses the value of what your dog is leaving. The goal is to minimize the association of being called and the pleasant activity stopping. Generally, dogs who have been trained a strong recall with high rewards starting first in low-distraction areas and then building up gradually to higher distractions, will have attained such a strong conditioned emotional response to the recall cue that it becomes almost a no-brainer choosing to come especially when there are not many competing stimuli around.

 

I need to precise: when I say "you must make sure to give a high enough reward that surpasses the value of what your dog is leaving" consider it from your dog's perspective. In other words, the value your dog gives to such or such item. So if for instance, you must call your dog or tell "him leave it" when he is consuming rabbit poop, you must be almighty sure to give something high value like some tripe or freeze-dried liver to have an impact as for some dogs rabbit poop is a treasured finding when to us, it's just waste.

 

I have found it best to allow dogs to explore a bit their yard, sniffing, marking, exploring, getting rid of their excess energy before working on recalls. This paves the path to a better response as the novelty of being in the yard fades away a bit and things start getting a bit boring.

 

One important caveat to keep in mind: many dogs like to play the keep away game, but some dogs aren't really playing or some dogs may be playing until they get ahold of something really valuable and things then turn serious.

 

These dogs have a serious intent to grab the stolen item and keep it out of your reach. Keep-away may start as an innocent game but some dogs may become more and more protective especially if you manage to remove the item from them over and over without trading with a higher value item. One day, a dog may just run off with the item, the next he may be growling and baring his teeth to tell you off because the item is perceived as highly valuable and he doesn't want you to take it away.

 

Please be careful! Trying to grab the item back by stretching the hand may be dangerous and things tend to get worse when aversive methods such as scolding your dog and grabbing her mouth to remove the item are employed.

 

For barking in the garden, I would need more info about that. In what context does it happen? Is she trying to get you to chase her? Or is she barking at stimuli across the fence? There are so many potential reasons for barking.

 

 

Disclaimer: Behavior modification comes with risks. If your dog ever shows or has ever shown aggressive displays towards you in the past, please report to a dog behavior professional using force-free methods for an in-person evaluation and coaching.

Edited February 4, 2019 by Adrienne Farricelli

[jbcovell]

Thank you so much for your response and the great advice. Sasha is about 5 1/2 months old and I feel confident we can make changes. Also, to clarify, she is eating pieces of bark. She has not been too vocal.

[Adrienne Farricelli]

You are very welcome! Keep us posted. So sorry I thought you meant she barked from the garden! Eating bark can be problematic as it has the potential to cause quite a bit of irritation to the stomach and esophagus. So I would suggest focusing on practicing leave its, distracting with interactive toys when in the yard or games, and possibly fencing off areas where the bark is (if feasible) if she is very quick in eating it. It might be worthy also mentioning to the vet the grass and bark eating if it's something that she's obsessed about as it can be indicative at times of digestive issues or nutritional deficiencies (as it happens with pica).

Best,

Adrienne

[jbcovell]

What is interesting is that she doesn't seem so interested in grass but in the moss growing in the midst of the grass. She doesn't touch grass where there is no moss growing. We live in Washington state where moss is plentiful. I have areas where I tried to clear out the moss, but there is still quite a bit.

[JMFS]

Maybe moss is juicier than the grass. :D If your Vet gives her a clean bill of health then it probably just is what it is. Mine have been Vet approved to eat as they please. I think Abbi does it because Momo does - she chews it off then spits it out. Gertie may do the same and I think it's just the moisture. Neither of the girls did this before Momo introduced them to the cuisine. Mo has no tail and he grabs a mouthful to achieve a full pivot or slow himself down. :D He likes to violently grab the grass and chomp it - I think it's a way for him to get rid of some of his excess energy. Only he knows for sure! I even bought several types of salad to see if it was a nutrient thing but he always returned to the grass. We don't chemically treat our yard so I let them all have at it. :rolleyes: