Nervouse and aggressive German Shepherd

[holiver0711]

Hello, I have been going to a trainer for a few weeks now to help build confidence in my male 8 month old German Shepherd. We have also been working on socialization with people. My German Shepherd lives with two other dogs who he gets along well with but is agressive to stranger dogs. There has definitely been some improvement already in his confidence around other people. The trainer had bronght out his well behaved dog to observe Koda(my German Shepherd) actions while I held him tight on the leash and gave treats. We are taking our next step in training now. So far the training is positive reinforcement with lots of treats but due to Koda's agression and my size compared to him we have started uping the training some. So that I can walk him one day without being worried I will be hurt or someone else. However, today the trainer introduced a pinch collar(Prong). It's one that has no sharp edges and is well rounded. I was instructed only to use this during training after he would show me of course how to use it. I have never been a hudge fan of prong collars or using flat collars for that matter, rather a proper fitting harness. I did try the prong collar on my arm and it didn't hurt at all. I have been trying to read up and gather more research but often still end up mixed up. I don't want to make Koda anymore nervouse and skittish then what he is or hurt him. So I was wondering what your thoughts on this are? Expessialy for a nervouse and dog agressive German shepherd.

Thank you

[Adrienne Farricelli]

Hello Holivoer0711 and welcome to the forums.

Have you ever tried a front-attachment harness such as the Easy Walk Harness, Sensible Harness or the Walk Your Dog with love harness? Since these harnessed attach to a front ring in the middle of the dog's chest, they allow better control compared to flat collars. They have become my go-to option for people who have large, powerful dogs.

[holiver0711]

Yes, he currently has a front clip harness that I use but the trainer seemed to want us to use the pinch/prong collar for training now but I'm not sure how comfortable I am with it. He is a puppy at 8 months and just learning to walk beside me still. So far it's been small steps. The only time Koda will really pull is if he sees another dog and will then turn agressive, keeping in mind he isn't puppy size anymore. I am tempted to ask my trainer if we really need to use the prong collar since I'm still unsure about it. There are so many different views on using this tool for training. The goal at the end is for Koda to be able walk around other dogs and etc. The trainer has worked with many similar dogs before and has never pushed Koda over his threshold when we have been reconditioning him. It's just this one thing about the prong collar that I'm conflicted on.

[holiver0711]

A front attachment harness was what the trainer first recommended us to get in Koda's yearling classes . I do really like the harness but we had to move up his training to more on leash walking since he saw the issue with other dogs. That's when he gave us the prong collar to use for training and when my confliction on using the collar arrived. Since there is so much talk about prong collars and if it's safe to use them.

[holiver0711]

From my readings you either get a complete no that it hurts the dog(didn't hurt me at all and has no sharp edges but a dog is different) or you get that it's just a uncomfortable feeling when the leash is tight but the idea is lose leash walking anyways.

[JMFS]

If you're not comfortable with it tell your trainer they'll have to find an alternative. If they won't, and you feel strongly enough about it, you might entertain finding a different trainer. You have to be onboard with the training methods used otherwise you're wasting time and money. I'd go with my gut on that one, especially since you're not warm and fuzzy about it you may hesitate to use it to its potential, negating the full benefit of using one. That's just my (not-so-humble) opinion. :) My brother has all sorts of suggestions for Momo, who has behavioral issues (including euthanization), and most of them involve discomfort for the dog (not pain, but unease). I chose to ignore his advice because I most certainly wouldn't treat my child like that so I'm not going to train my pups with such a heavy hand, either. At least not until all other options have been exhausted. Like a martingale collar.

[Adrienne Farricelli]

From my readings you either get a complete no that it hurts the dog(didn't hurt me at all and has no sharp edges but a dog is different) or you get that it's just a uncomfortable feeling when the leash is tight but the idea is lose leash walking anyways.

 

 

Prong collars work mainly by inflicting discomfort/pain. There are two mechanisms of action: active correction (directly from the owner) or passive correction (indirectly). Active correction takes place when the owner deliberately delivers a correction by yanking the leash when the dog is showing signs of "misbehaving." The yank is contingent upon the dog performing an undesirable behavior.

 

Passive correction takes place when the dog pulls on the leash, in other words, the dog receives an "auto-correction" since upon pulling, the strain on the leash causes the prong collar to tighten around the neck. Depending on the dog's pain threshold/situation (when dogs go through adrenaline surges they may have reduced perception of pain/discomfort), this may or may not result in reduced pulling behavior.

 

Now here's the thing: while its true that prong collars tend to overall work (I have used them with my dogs back in time, before I crossed over to kinder training methods), there are risks for "side effects."

 

Most likely, since you mention your dog is showing aggression towards other dogs, he is lunging and barking at them on walks. Lunging is simply an outward manifestation of an internal turmoil. Correction after correction, there are risks that a dog will learn to associate the presence of other dogs with the pain/discomfort inflicted by the collar.

 

A prong collar may not cause any pain upon putting it on a leg and pulling gently and slowly. However, prong collars are meant to be worn on necks. Yank it hard and suddenly (mimicking a hard correction or a dog hitting the end of the leash) with a force equal to the weight of their dog, and it's easier to get an idea (please don't try this!).

 

Contrary to popular belief, the skin on a dog's neck isn't as thick as we previously thought. It has been found that the skin on a human’s neck is thicker (10 to 15 cells) than the skin on a dog’s neck (3 to 5 cells). On top of this, veterinarian and thyroid expert, Dr. Jean Dodds claims that prong collars can easily injure a dog's thyroid as well as the salivary glands and salivary lymph nodes.

 

As James O’Heare, professional Animal Behavior Consultant puts it, goes a long way. He claims the use of choke chains, prong collars and other devices are "a Band-Aid solution that does not address the actual problem". Their use can result in depression, disempowerment, redirected aggression and deterioration of social relationships to just name a few.

 

Board-certified veterinary behaviorist Dr. Soraya V. Juarbe-Diaz, in reference to using training methods or tools known to cause discomfort or pain, claims: “I can stop any behavior, but I am more interested in teaching my students, animal or human, to choose the behavior I want them to perform because they can trust me, because I do not hurt them and they are safe with me, and because the outcome is something they enjoy. Mistakes are inherent in any type of learning — if I continually frighten or hurt my students when they get something wrong, eventually they will be afraid to try anything new and will not want to learn from me any longer."

 

So these are just a few things that may be worthy of considering and the reason why I advocate for front-attachment harnesses.

Edited June 22, 2019 by Adrienne Farricelli

[holiver0711]

Thank you for all the information! It can get confusing since when I watched dog trainers using it on their dogs they seemed healthy and happy. From what I know the proper fitting prong collar should be right behind the ears and the prong parts should be on the back of the head instead of the throat and not able to slide over the dogs head. One reason why I dislike walking dogs on a flat collar is the pressure it applies to one area on the throat. Yes, when Koda sees another dog out on our outings he will bark, hair raises and will start lunging. Something that definitely worries me for when he gets bigger. I definitely am going to see if the trainer will allow us to keep using our front attachment harness since I feel most comfortable using that.

[Adrienne Farricelli]

Yes, prong collars are meant to be worn behind the ears and under the jaw line. Many people have them on their dogs too loose or too low. The prong parts are in contact with the throat area.

 

Although dogs may appear healthy and happy, it's likely that no pressure is being placed on the prong collar at that time or the dogs are too over threshold to notice or they are showing signs but they are very minimal. Here's how the prongs work: upon pulling or upon being corrected, the prongs dig into the skin of the dog's neck which is meant to cause an unpleasant sensation such as discomfort/pain or a startling effect. If prong collars weren't causing any pain/discomfort they would have no purpose other than just encircling a dog's neck.

 

Back in time when I used prong collars, my dogs came running towards me as soon as I grabbed them as they associated them with walks. I figured they loved wearing it. However, only overtime, I started seeing the negative effects. Some dogs like Rottweilers can be quite stoic, and oftentimes they may seem to be doing OK, while they may not. Physically, they may look fine, but emotionally they are not. That's when I understood that when my dogs were wagging their tails like crazy, moving quickly and acting all silly at the vet, they were in "fool around" mood (a part of the fight and flight response) and that's seen when dogs are anxious.

 

It took me to enroll in a dog training academy that relied on modern dog training methods involving positive reinforcement and which focused on instilling trust and building a relationship with dogs, to start noticing the negative effects of certain training tools and training methods. The goal of this training philosophy was reinforcing desired behaviors rather than suppressing the unwanted ones. With this training, my dogs opened up, they were more likely to try new things and we were able to bring training to a higher level.

 

As I got more attuned into reading dog body language, I started noticing subtle signs of discomfort and displacement behaviors in dogs I had never noticed before such as quick lip licks, yawning, tense mouths,whale eyes, spatulate tongues, ears back. Some signs took time noticing and the training school helped us see them by playing videos of dogs very slowly.

 

That's when I ditched certain training methods and stopped using the prong collar. I hung it up by door turning it into an ornamental key holder and replaced it with a front attachment harness. The harness was more really for my confidence (I was quite petite weighing 102 pounds while my Rotties were 85 and 90) and I had the need to feel some level of control until we had perfected obedience training.

 

One thing worth considering is that, when behavior modification (ideally under the aid or a professional) is done well, systematically and correctly, using force-free methods, there should be minimal barking/lunging and piloerection. In other words, the dog is kept well under threshold, so there really should be no need to worry too much about a dog pulling at full force and struggling in keeping him under control. If the dog happens to react, the trainer takes quick notice, and steps are taken to prevent further mishaps (by increasing distance, taking notice what triggers cause the dog to react (ID tags jingling? fine, they can be taped together, dog moving too fast? then let's make the dog move more slowly, panting of the dog? let's give that dog some rest or let's work under shade) etc.

 

Often, it's is best starting with private lessons using a dog trainer's calm dog as the "stimulus dog", rather than going straight into group classes where dogs are stressed, flooded and unable to cognitively function (and possibly corrected for reacting depending on the dog's trainer's training philosophies).

 

Dog trainer Ian Dunbar claims: "to use shock collar (or a prong collar) as an effective dog training tool you will need:

 

A thorough understanding of canine behaviour.

A thorough understanding of learning theory.

Impeccable timing.

And if you have those three things, you ultimately don't need a shock collar (or a prong collar).

 

Here's a read about dog threshold levels:

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/threshold-levels/

 

However, since "oops' moments can happen to even the best behavior modification program (another dog barks, moves too fast-this by the way can be to a great extent avoided using a bomb-proof dog trainer's dog as a demo dog), it's not a bad idea to invest in a front-attachment harness if that provides an additional sense of security. If you are concerned about pressure on the throat and your German shepherd's emotions, then I would suggest skipping the prong and investing in force-free behavior modification and tools.

Edited June 22, 2019 by Adrienne Farricelli