Recall

[danenloe12]

I am becoming frustrated with my dogs recall. She is one year old in mid July. She is a rescue that is supposed to be a golden/poodle mix, but looks like a lab. I have never played chase or done anything bad when she came. Like all goldens I've known, she is very food motivated. At the same time, she can only really eat her kibble or it will cause diarrhea. Luckily, she likes it and will do many things for kibble.

The issues I have:

1. Inside

a. She understands but seems to take a moment to decide to come.

b. ...but she still seems to stop 2-3 feet away from me.

2. Oustide: I have 10 acres with distant neighbors.

a. she just won't pay attention to me for more than 30 seconds when off leash.

b. She does a great job staying around me when off leash. She typically will not venture more than 50 ft from me. And she will mostly come near me when I call her. But not all the way to me 90% of the time.

 

I have a long lead and I spent most of my time training her outside on a long lead (30 ft or so). Our come practice with this lead felt like I would call her, if she did not respond, I would start to pull her to me can call her somewhat excitedly, and give her a treat when she made it to me.

 

She is easliy distracted by everything. Grass, sticks, mud, bushes, trees, bugs, you name it. Most of the time, when I call her, she has her nose in something, but that is her normal state really. Even in the basement, where we really started our training, she constantly smells stuff. I know this is normal behavior. She always wants to be near me, but wants to be smelling instead of participating in most training.

 

Pretty successful training so far.

Heal, sit, down, stay, wait, no, leave it, touch, find it (find hidden food), three cup food montee. She is weak at watch me, although sometimes she will watch me intently, just not on command very well.

[JMFS]

I think any trainer is going to tell you recall is an ongoing training process. Some dogs are more responsive than others (Beagles are slaves to their noses, for example, and present a big challenge).

 

I can only tell you what's worked for us and it sounds like you're doing things right so you may have already done what I'm going to share. In the last month Gertie has gotten So much better at recall so I'll relay what's been working for us. She's a grass connoisseur, lizard pouncer, squirrel chaser, and crow patrol, so we have Lots of distractions. I had to make myself more interesting than all those things and holy Hannah was that tough. I started making trilling noises, waving my arms, running away from her, and a couple times I even went inside because I was beyond frustrated that making a fool of myself didn't work. Out of all of that moving away from her works the best. Having her flirt pole with me is also a good enticement.

 

When she does break from me (and she does more often than I'd like, but far less often than before) I don't even bother calling after her when she's running. It's after she's stopped that I'll tell her to "leave" because it's normally a squirrel (we're still working on that). She'll sniff around the tree or fence a couple seconds then run to the next and then the next and by the 4th time she's about to sniff something That's when I'll call her back to me. That has been working well and we're getting to where it's fewer and fewer sniffing spots (we've worked our way down from All of the trees to only a few).

 

When she's particularly unresponsive then the next three or so times she goes outside she's put on the 50 ft lead and I attach that to the tie down so I can have my hands free. That seems to help with reinforcing that she's going to have to come back to me and she can either do it with freedom to run the yard, or by being constrained to a smaller area of the yard. I'm pleased to say I haven't used the lead in over a month (and I sure hope it continues!). She's had a couple infractions, but since she came back fairly quickly after running off without being released I skipped the lead.

 

For a good month when she did come I praised her Ridiculously. As though she'd just won the Grand Prize Jackpot. Lots of enthusiastic "good girl" and chin scratches or ear rubs were lavished upon her and I really think that had the biggest effect. On days I know she's going to have an extra challenging recall day I'll take her treat bottle out with me (it's a creamer bottle I filled with Zuke's minis) and I'll shake that to get her attention.

 

I let her have at least one "free sniff" period per day where she gets to smell all the things in the yard that changed since the last time we were out there before I call her back in. The rest of our outings are "business" and I'll use that word with her so she knows this one is a potty break, then it's right back inside. I've read that dogs will sometimes ignore when they're not allowed time to check out their environment because coming right away means they have to go inside when they want to be outside. In those cases recalling is more like a punishment.

 

I'm willing to bet Adrienne is going to tell you your pup is entering doggy adolescence. :D It's a time when they test the waters, just like a teenager does. The only other thing I can think of is to practice more inside until she's got it down pat. She's still pretty darn young. Gertie is about 6 months older and has mellowed a wee bit now that she's reaching her 20's and is leaving the teens, ha! She's a golden / boxer / American staffordshire terrier mix and thankfully has the golden temperament so hopefully that's a foreshadowing of what you can expect. Your girl is definitely smart with the two breeds she's got in her so she'll piece things together. We do a lot of practice in front of the window where she can see what's going on outside. With you being on 10 acres that may pose more of an issue because you probably don't have the same stimuli that we do (garbage trucks, walkers, joggers, bicyclists, neighbors mowing their lawn for the 4th time that week . . .), but I thought it worth a mention since you may have wildlife that may catch her eye.

 

What about plain chicken? Does that upset her belly, too? I know when I take chicken out with me she'll go off in the distance but she's just Waiting for me to recall so she can get a bit of that treat. I boil it without any spices but she still goes wild for it. Are you substituting her meals with the kibble when you train or do you feed her the full amount in addition to what you use for training?

 

I know I'm not the expert, but I hope I've provided perhaps one nugget of useful information!

[danenloe12]

Thanks, I know I need to work on it more. Surprisingly, my dog's name was Gertie from the people who gave her up. We changed it to Sohpie when we picked her up from the shelter.

 

I have not tried much different in her diet. I have the same treats as you mentioned above, but they cause issues as does peanut butter, apples, etc. I have not tried boiled chicken. Plain crackers are OK and she seems pretty content with her kibble. Since her weight continues to be fine, I do not adjust her normal feeding amount, although I did when she was younger.

 

When we are out off leash, she does a fair job of keeping an eye on me. She will run toward me if she feels like she is too far away....once her nose leaves the ground. I give her lots of free time to sniff. I guess I need to make our outings more training and less free running around. Surprisingly, today was the first day that she ventured all the way to my neighbor's house before running back to me.

 

I was concerned that my original come training may have made her think that come was being associated with the tug she felt when she did not come when called vs the praise she received when she arrived.

 

She is also a champ at indoor fetch, but cannot do it outdoors at all. She has learned to jump over a few jumps that I've made and the tire jump fairly well about 3 times before she is more interested in smelling stuff then treats or toys.

[JMFS]

Gertie is a good name, but so is Sophie. Sophie is a name fit for a classy lady.

 

I was thinking less of weight and more of enticement with removing the amount she's trained with from her meals. The hungrier she is, the more appealing that kibble is going to be and the harder she'll work for it. Hopefully the chicken will work for her because they really do behave for that treat! If not you may be able to dampen the kibble so it gives off more odor. Grosser to handle, for sure, but if it works then it's worth the mess. I'm thinking maybe spritz it with a spray bottle. Since you mentioned crackers I'll share that I used to use Pepperidge Farm Goldfish because they're a good treat size.

 

We also struggle with fetch. I honestly don't remember how I taught Momo. When I have both dogs fetching Gertie will bring the ball to me to keep it away from Momo, but if we're in the front yard without him then Gertie will grab the ball where it is, plop down, and happily chomp away on it. :rolleyes: She's a pro when we do pool fetch and I've figured out that playing fetch in the front doorway works well because we have bushes on either side of the sidewalk that make for an enclosed area. I toss the ball at the door and she brings it back to me, but as soon as we pass that hedge line she's triumphantly prancing around with her prize and ignoring me altogether. Little toot! We don't work on it all that hard and I'm sure if we did she'd be a pro. The two-ball method Usually works well. Sometimes she'll drop the first ball where she stands and come running to me for the second ball, which defeats the purpose because then I'm retrieving not only one, but Two balls! I'm sure she's having a laugh.

 

Since Sophie likes to sniff so much and she does the find it game indoors, maybe she would enjoy some outdoor nose work.

 

How does she respond if you make a lot of silly noises and wave your arms in the air? I feel utterly ridiculous doing it, but sometimes I have to make a fool of myself to get Gertie's attention. Adrienne says we have to be more interesting than the environment and that's sometimes Really tough to do. How am I supposed to compete with a twitchy squirrel?!

 

Oh! I had another thought. The other day Momo was barking at the pest control man and Mo started running over to the man but I had my trusty silent whistle. I timed it between barks and Mo screeched to a halt, pivoted, and ran back to me. Here's my post on how I trained that: https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/forum/showthread.php?83-Silent-Whistle-Training-(How-I-Did-It)&highlight=silent It works well for when I need to call him in at 2 a.m. (I'm a night owl) because I don't have to bother the neighbors with a bunch of noise.

[Adrienne Farricelli]

I feel utterly ridiculous doing it, but sometimes I have to make a fool of myself to get Gertie's attention. Adrienne says we have to be more interesting than the environment and that's sometimes Really tough to do. How am I supposed to compete with a twitchy squirrel?!

 

I hear you! I think I have done so many ridiculous things to train a good recall including running out of the blue and acting crazy in front of people. Sometimes, we need to think out of the box to compete with those super enticing stimuli. And you are right, it can be tough.

 

In my place we don't have squirrels but rabbits and our chickens to practice and compete with. The last dog in service dog training was attracted to both. Super strong prey drive due to the fact this dog was a hound mix. Since she was so crazy for rabbits, I got her a real rabbit fur tug toy (found it on Etsy, and it was hand crafted by a lady who specializes in this niche) and I used it as an outlet for her great drive to chase those furry critters. I attached it to a flirt pole and used to train leave its and drop its in the home and then we practiced in the yard. She was heavily rewarded with high-value foods (even experimented with rabbit meat!) until I got a very strong response that she looked at me for her high value treat upon spotting the rabbit versus chasing.

 

Did the same exercise with chicken. Note: I always kept her on leash for this training because mishaps can and will happen (a chicken flies her way, the rooster gets upset) but we got to the point of walking past them on a loose leash with her caring less about them.

 

We also did lots of desensitization to sudden movements/sounds in tall grass or on dry leaves. My helper tossed rocks in tall grass when she wasn't looking and this triggered an instinct to chase (which was redirected to a smacking sound/treats). We did this so often that she then cared less as she learned that there were no animals to chase and the food was far more interesting than a remote possibility that there was a real critter. We also did rehearsals of dragging a stuffed animal made of chicken feathers/rabbit fur on a string in tall grass and even invested in a remote controlled flying bird to practice attention heeling.

 

Practice makes perfect. Embracing challenges and trying to work with them (through positive associations, reinforcement of desirable behaviors, desensitization) rather than against them (through avoidance or corrections by jerking the leash) has always been my favorite approach and the most effective. Sometimes, this takes a lot of determination (being more motivated in getting results than the dog's will to chase) and getting to know the triggers better and also thinking like a dog (what attracts the dog the most? the unpredictable movement? the smell? a combo of factors? and what can be done to work on the issue?) but when there is a will there is a way. It takes time, but it's worthy in the long run (of course, this was a must as this was a to-be service dog possibly going to some veteran with mobility issues).

Edited July 2, 2019 by Adrienne Farricelli

[Adrienne Farricelli]

When we are out off leash, she does a fair job of keeping an eye on me. She will run toward me if she feels like she is too far away....once her nose leaves the ground. I give her lots of free time to sniff. I guess I need to make our outings more training and less free running around.

 

While doing more training and less free running around may sound like a good plan, there is a risk that this approach may backfire. Here's the thing. If she is allowed less time to run around and explore, this scarcity risks making the outdoors even more salient. For sake of comparison, it's sort of like telling a child I will give you a lollipop at Disney World if you stick to me and ignore all the attractions and the rides. Most likely, day after day, the rides and attractions will become so attractive that the child will toss the lollipop and plan to sneak away and go on venturing on his own.

 

The increased training and less exploring therefore risks turning you into a "party pooper" unless you really put a great emphasis on reinforcing desired behaviors, but we are going against instincts here, and the instinct to explore, smell and stretch the legs after being enclosed will always prevail.

 

10 acres of land sound like a dog's dream come true. Here's the thing, to dogs, smells are ever changing. Here's a quote that I love: "Each departure from the house brings a new scene, one never visited. Each day, each hour, wears a new smellscape. There is no such thing as “fresh air” to a dog. Air is rich: an olfactory tangle that the dog’s nose will diligently unknot," ~Alexandra Horowitz "Being a Dog: Following the Dog Into a World of Smell."

 

It may therefore help to allow your dog to smell to her's heart content, stretch her legs, pee, poop and do all that she likes and then once she is getting a bit bored you can then call her and reward her and then just send her off to do some exploring in an area that she wasn't explored yet. This, often with certain dogs, is the biggest gift of all. Some dogs look bewildered when they are told to go back to exploring as if thinking "Really? you are sending me off to explore more? And a new spot? Wow! I thought you were going to call me, give me a boring treat and go home!"

 

I have seen several dogs who are tentative to reach their owners completely when called. This is seen often in dogs who:

-Are not too motivated by food

-Aren't given any reward for coming

-The food given is too low value

-The owners have grabbed the dog/collar to take him home upon being called (the dog is sort of tentative to approach in fear of some consequence)

-The owners have been using food as bribes and failed to phase out the food lures (in other words, they show the food in plain view so that the dog decides whether it's worthy of coming or not based on the food they see)

-The dog was trained to play keep away (doesn't apply to you as you mentioned not playing this)

 

Since you mention digestive issues, and using kibble, it could likely that kibble may be a bit boring. Sure Labs/Lab mixes gobble things up like there's no tomorrow, but consider that you are competing against smells, critters, and all that big packet of stimuli that makes the outdoors so great.

 

It may be worthy looking at the package of dog food you are feeding and ask your vet if you can use the same protein listed in the ingredient for training. In other words, if the food you are feeding is made of lamb, ask your vet if you can use lamb meat as a treat for training, if it contains fish, ask about using that same fish, if it lists chicken, consider using chicken. Of course, the training food/treats must only contain that protein and no other ingredients that may contribute to digestive issues. Your vet may be able to help. Also, some lines of dog food make treats using the same proteins as their lines of food. Something worthy of considering if that's an option.

Edited July 2, 2019 by Adrienne Farricelli

[Adrienne Farricelli]

"I was concerned that my original come training may have made her think that come was being associated with the tug she felt when she did not come when called vs the praise she received when she arrived. "

 

It is possible that a dog may have learned that the tug is the actual "cue" to come when called upon being trained on a long line if the tug is used often. In other words, a dog trained with tugs may think something along these lines "when my owner calls me, it doesn't mean anything, I will have to wait for the tug." It's a similar phenomenon as seen with dogs who wait for owners to repeat commands (it's not come, but come, come, come! so dogs won't come when called only once as they are waiting for the repeated cues) which is one reason why repeating commands in dog training is a big no-no.

 

So in such a case, it's important to phase out the tug starting by calling her in close areas and making the recall extra easy-peasy and using high value foods if possible. If it must be kibble for now, how about giving a handful and then sending her back to sniff? We want her to discover and reap the benefits of coming close to you on her own at her pace. Make it super easy to make her succeed. If she is too distracted outside, work more at home and nearby the house and don't move to the next level until ready.

 

If you have a small fenced area, practice off leash with her. Reward her for voluntarily "checking- in" with you. It may take some time after she's done exploring and sniffing. Every time she voluntarily looks at you, approaches you, surprise her and toss her a treat. Do this often and be generous. We want to reward this. More and more dog trainers are discovering that it's easier to train dogs after they have explored their areas. It's as if they feel more secure and confident once they have checked out their place and got acquainted with it. One dog trainer in particular claims "

 

Also, remember using recalls out of the official contest of "training." Use your dog's meal time to her advantage. Have a helper hold her and release her when you call her for her meals. Call her when you get a new toy. Hide it behind you back and give it to her once she reaches you. Surprise her. Since she knows stay, ask her to sit and stay or lay down and stay, then call her to release her (great, flashy recalls usually follow a stationary down/stay/sit/stay) and reward her lavishly.

 

And yes, as Jennifer pointed out, the recall is ongoing training, it's something that you will have to continue working on, competing against stimuli and taking it one step at a time. And it's important to consider it an investment. Each successful recall, puts you a coin in a your recall piggy bank, each non-successful recall removes one coin putting a dent in your progress. This emphasizes the importance of helping the dog succeed by making things easy, short and sweet (do just a few successful recalls and call it a day rather than asking too much) making it worthy (surprising the dog) and having the dog wanting to recall voluntarily to the point where it almost becomes a reflexive response (oh boy, oh boy, here comes something great!!!!).

 

Also, evaluate challenges and work with them. Any time a recall fails, evaluate what happened. Next time, make the exercise easier, split it in baby steps presenting a similar situation in a less intense version with the dog under threshold. For example, the dog didn't come when called when she was sniffing? Next time, wait for her to lift her head off the sniffing area so that she is more responsive. Dogs use a large portion of their brains for sniffing. A dog may still come when called when sniffing, but this takes time and a certain level of training and should only be done in emergency situations rather than just "testing to see how the dog responds."

Edited July 2, 2019 by Adrienne Farricelli

[danenloe12]

Thanks for all of the advice.

 

When outside sniffing or otherwise destracted, it does seem like she wants to come but is just going for one more sniff before she moves....that one more sniff sometimes expands into two. So, maybe the "come" command is taking a minute to be precessed....

 

She does regularly check in when off leash. Sometimes it is just a look, other times is a gallop back to where I am, with or witout a recall. If she can't see me, she tends to run toward the house until she sees me, then straight to me.

 

Today, I decided to do some jumps for training (off leash). She did OK. She came, sat, jumped, repeat 3 times. That was it. No more coming. Smells and sticks were too much. I also took my flirt stick when out and about. This is her favorite toy and responds pretty well to it. 3 of 4 times she came, the forth time a stick was just too much.

 

I'm going to try the boiled chicken treat and see how that digests. I may try bread again. I think peanut butter and my purchased treats were the main culprets, but now that she has had consistent poops for a few week, I'll try it again.

 

Thanks for the encouragment!

[JMFS]

That sounds so much like where we were about 8 months ago. It keeps getting better and I started up the silent whistle training again because it never hurts to have that ace in the hole. My neighbor is a poodle breeder and I can hear her all the way across the street (we're on about 1.3 acre lots) yelling at her dogs to come, but instead they frolic the day away, ignoring her. I like Adrienne's methods Much better. :D

 

Hopefully she'll do fine with the chicken and it does make sense that if it's already in her kibble then she should be good to go. If she does well with it then you might see a Big change in her enthusiasm towards training. As you rule things in you may be able to expand the menu by adding one thing at a time. The more tools in your belt, the easier training becomes (or so I find).

 

She sounds like a sweet pup, voluntarily checking in and wanting to keep you in sight. To me that's a sign of a good bond.

[danenloe12]

Update. This AM we went out off leash. I waited until she was not dragging around a stick or her nose was not in the ground for her recall. She did much better. 100% recall. Thanks for the advice. :)

[Adrienne Farricelli]

Thanks for the update! It is greatly appreciated. Keep us posted on your continued progress and feel free to post any further questions.