aggresion

[billprispark]

Still trying to work with aggression when on a leash, One of my friends suggested that I take Finn to the dog park so he can be with other dogs off leash. Is this a good idea. I have to confess that I am very nervous about dog parks so that doesn't help matters

[JMFS]

From what I've read around here, throwing him into an overload situation like a dog park might be a spell for disaster. I think it would be helpful to know what types of signs he gives when other dogs are around. Does his tail wag, does he salivate, does he stiffen up, what position are his ears in, is he snarling or just barking, etc . . .. Also, does he do the same sort of thing off leash? It Could be barrier frustration, where Finn is annoyed that he can't get to what he wants to inspect and that's aggravating him. Or it could be that he's truly aggressive. If it's the latter of the two then Finn would be set up for failure with all the opportunities a dog park provides. The last thing you want to do is add fear to the aggression if a fight breaks out and he's injured, or have it embolden him if he wins the bout.

 

A dog park can still be useful even if you don't go in to the actual park. It's one way to safely gauge threshold because Finn can't get to the other dogs and they can't get to him so you can adjust the distance to where he's okay and start your desensitization training from that distance.

 

Gertie is happy-go-lucky and never met a stranger so I have the same type of issue, but on the other end of the spectrum - she just wants to play. The end result is the same - leash tugging, barking, and lunging. We practice with a 50 ft lead in the yard as the neighborhood dogs walk by. I ask her, "what's that?" when they pass by and when she looks at them I give her a treat or praise. We're about 20 feet from the fence line before she can get a passing grade and the further away from her I am, the less successful she is. We started indoors and worked our way up to the yard. She doesn't bark at the waste collectors or mailman any more and she's Almost quiet with UPS and the yard crew now. It took several sessions of "what's that" and treats to get us to that point so it's definitely not an overnight thing. It took a couple months for us and it's ongoing training - they need refresher courses.

[Adrienne Farricelli]

A dog park would be too much for your dog at this point, especially since we don't know how your dog's social skills are. Putting him in an enclosed space with a bunch of stranger dogs would be too risky and could set your dog for failure, not to mention pose a risk to your dog and other dogs.

 

It would be best to take a gradual approach, working with your dog under threshold, starting with the Look at That exercise from behind the window, then once you have that exercise pat down, move on to practicing in the yard initially at a distance from the fence, then closer, then progress to walks with dogs at a distance and then closer, and then, only once your dog has proven to you the ability to remain calm in the presence of other dogs at certain distance, you can practice walking you dog along the perimeter of the dog park and gauge how it goes.

 

The link to the Look at That exercise was posted in the previous thread:

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/forum/showthread.php?243-aggression

 

Behavior modification takes time and needs to be done very gradually. The most common cause for failure and the onset of setbacks is going too fast in the process and placing the expectations too high. If your dog happens to have barrier frustration versus true aggression, he would still not be an ideal dog park candidate considering that his arousal levels upon entering would likely be too high and some dogs may react to that with aggression. On top of that, by allowing him to enter the park barking, pulling and throwing a tantrum would reinforce those behaviors and make things more difficult on walks upon spotting other dogs. Until he is calmer and has been evaluated by a professional to asses his social skills to determine what we are truly dealing with, it would therefore be safest to avoid the park.

 

You can read below why dog parks are frowned upon many dog behavior professionals (although there are exceptions to the rule).

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/forum/showthread.php?225-Introduction-to-Dog-Parks

Edited August 27, 2019 by Adrienne Farricelli

[billprispark]

I am still working out the aggression issue when we walk I have bought a muzzle but haven't used it yet on walks. What happens if an unleashed dog approaches and Finn has the muzzle on . Another question, When I first got Finn we had a coffee club which a couple of dogs came with their owners for coffee. Finn off leash did well with the other two dogs. We have not had coffee club for a couple of months now so Finn has not had the opportunity to be with another dog off leash. Will he remember to not be aggressive if I have him meet another dog off leash

[Adrienne Farricelli]

Remember one general rule of thumb when using muzzles: always treat your dog as if wasn't wearing one. The reason for this is that we don't want to put him into situations that are too much for him to deal with emotionally. In other words, we don't want to "flood him." Flooding means exposing dogs (or people) to situations that are in full intensity. These situations can make problems worse rather than better. We want to de-sensitize, not sensitize which is just the opposite.

 

So we want to protect Finn as much as possible from a negative encounter and/or allowing him to rehearse behaviors that are internally reinforcing such as lunging, barking and growling at other dogs to make them retreat and go away. This means we need as much as possible to avoid areas where off leash dogs may approach. This can lead to significant set backs. I know of even service dogs who weren't aggressive at all to start with, who became aggressive because of a wrong encounter with an off-leash dog. So try your best to walk him in areas where there are leash laws in place and where there are no off leash dogs.

 

If the inevitable happens and some dogs escapes a yard and presents to your dog, it is not easy to know what to predict. There can be various outcomes. Hopefully, the other dog is not aggressive and you can put some distance by perhaps tossing your bag of treats in the approaching dog's path so that you can both walk away.

 

Now, if Finn does well off leash with dogs, there are chances that you may be dealing with barrier frustration rather than true aggression, so if that is the case, he may do well once again if he is seeing the same dogs and has a positive association with them and he is kept off leash. However, dog behavior is never entirely predictable. Barrier frustration can turn into real aggression in some cases. Also, we don't know if your dog has true barrier frustration or if he is just "selective'' meaning that he may do well with some dogs and not others.

 

Now, it may be possible to "see your dog's true colors" if you have him muzzled and off leash with another off-leash dog (like in a large fenced area), but ideally, it would be best to have a dog behavior professional with you for a proper evaluation. Some dog trainers have good "demo dogs" which can be used for such introductions. After being with one dog, you can always with the help of professional try with a different dog and so forth, to see if he might be "selective" or if he is just a dog who doesn't do well being leashed.

Edited September 7, 2019 by Adrienne Farricelli

[billprispark]

I really wish there was a dog trainer here in Salmon Idaho I try to take walking routes where Finn is not exposed to dogs .However there are several dogs in the apartment complex that are a;;owed to run free including the managers daughter: Yesterday they were out when I tried to walk Finn and as usual he went crazy as the dogs approached him. I do have a taser which makes a loud bang and that stopped them so I could move on. Last night I had a friend who has a female collie and she invited Finn and me to the dog park, She told me no other dogs were there. I went and she had her collie and another little male dog that she walks. As soon as I opened the door and let Finn out he attacked the little male dog. Thus a fight and I used my taser to break them up. The little dog ran home and then Finn was fine with the female. I love walking with Finn but I am frustrated and don't know what to do ,Would a shock collar be useful

[Adrienne Farricelli]

So sorry this has happened. This suggests that he wasn't emotionally ready for that level of exposure. It's very important to protect Finn from exposures as such as they can really put a dent and exacerbate things. Shock collars would only make things worse considering that he would start associating the shock with the sight of other dogs, leading to more aggression and stress. There were several studies conducted on the use of shock collars showing that their use led to increases in cortisol and even negative associations with dog owners. Because of their impact, more and more dog trainers are contrary to their use and they are now banned in many countries.

 

Instead, it's crucial to aim on creating positive associations. Please follow the behavior modification tips provided and if you have no force-free professional in your town, you may have to travel to find one to help you out for safety and correct implementation. If this is not feasible, keep working on the LAT behavior modification protocol and avoid as much as possible full exposures. Do not worry about your dog suffering from not being social, to the contrary, exposure to dogs seems to cause him stress. This may cause you stress too, because when dogs fight, it leaves an impact on us too leading to us getting increasingly tense when other dogs come near.

 

Baby steps, and behavior modification focusing on keeping the dog under threshold, using desensitization and counterconditioning are therapeutic for dog owners too, because dogs progress at their own pace and this feels encouraging to dog owners too who also gradually develop confidence. It's a win-win for both, it just requires commitment, patience and time, but it can also feel very rewarding.

 

Please use the upmost caution, and as tempting at it may be to follow others with dogs hoping things go well, it's important to protect Finn from negative encounters as much as possible as these can lead to setbacks which can be costly in the emotional department. This doesn't mean that Finn should never be near other dogs and that he will have to be locked up for life, it just means that baby steps are needed, and that you can work with him using distance at first (starting with LAT at home using windows, then you can practice it by watching passing by calm dogs walking at a distance and you can even organize walks together with other dog owners, (gauging distance where he can be under threshold) which are a way for dogs to socialize too, only in a more structured way).

 

If you need any further elucidations on how LAT works and how to keep your dog under threshold, and use desensitization and counterconditioning please let me know. Another great method is to enlist the help of a friend with a very calm, leashed dog (keep your dog leashed too) and work on open bar/closed bar at a distance. You can read about all of this here:

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/threshold-levels/

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/desensitization/

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/counterconditioning/

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/pre-lat-look-behavior-modification/

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/brain-training/university/look-at-that/

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/open-bar-closed-bar/

Edited September 7, 2019 by Adrienne Farricelli

[JMFS]

I found this one on the PPG site. I had to open the search to 100 miles from zip code 83467, but this is from a site Adrienne recommended a while back:

 

http://www.petprofessionalguild.com/Sys/PublicProfile/7466291

 

Then I found this one, again I had to open it to 100 miles, but there are 3 trainers. It's a school for positive reinforcement and science-based (so Adrienne should approve! :D)

 

https://www.animalbehaviorcollege.com/dog_trainer_search_result_zip.asp?startpointzipcode=83467&radius=100

 

If nothing else, you may be able to get names from one of these folks. Also, ask your Veterinarian for recommendations as they may have someone they know. I also live in an area that's not rife with trainers. Horse trainers galore, but dog trainers not so much (and most all use the Alpha method which landed got us into a pickle with Momo). I was able to locate a trainer through the PPG site and though we have setbacks here and there, Momo and I are communicating Much better and his aggression is in check. The only time he slips up is when *I* slip up. They really look to us for guidance so we have to get ourselves set in order to be good guardians of these furry little guys. I had to learn not to yell and get upset - and boy was That a tough one. It's taken 15 months, but between my behavioral trainer and the assistance I've received here we're in a Much better place. I say all this to encourage you. If I can curb my yelling and hair trigger responses, I have faith you can get yourself and Finn to a good place, too. :) You've already taken major steps in the right direction by being here and asking for help.