Your new students --- Spotty, Luna & Me.

[Manali]

Hi once again,

 

Sorry I took quite some time to get back to you but the virus has spread at a horrifying rate where I stay and there are a lot of changes in routine due to the lockdown. So, everyday is a new challenge figuring things out.

 

How is it over there? How are you and your family?

 

I am so happy that you have agreed to help me and my babies. This will be so good. Thank you a million times again.

 

Allow me to take you through both my babies and few of their health issues and behavioral issues. I have a feeling it won't be very brief. So, this is a heads-up and this me apologizing in advance. Sorry about that. But, I reckon that this will help you understand them and my situation better.

 

So, without further ado I'll jump straight into it. (Bear with me please.)

 

I have two dogs -- Spotty and Luna.

 

Spotty is around 7 years old and was my very first adoption. She's an Indie (pariah) dog and I found her outside my ex-office two years ago. And that's how she entered my life.

 

She, was somehow potty trained and I never once witnessed her eliminate in my home. She always preferred outdoors. But besides that she was a doggo with too many issues. People around the office, told me she would only be with her mother until her mother crossed the rainbow bridge. She then spent some of her time with the people in the office next to mine (before I came into the picture). They would let her in as and when she liked but soon refused her entry once they got themselves a breed dog. She was also badly abused by homeless kids and their parents. And I've personally worked a year on her to just get her to trust me. To know when I raise my hand, I only in love and to pet her.

 

She is extremely scared of firecrackers and rain. And she is super duper aggressive around other dogs.

 

A little fuck up on my end here -- so back in my office days, she never would even walk with me past say 300 meters. There was a beach around and I would want to take her there but she wouldn't cross that line she made for herself. It took me a lot of picking her up and (guilty as charged) dragging and pulling her to get her to cross her limits.

 

She is aggressive now with dogs but back then she only and only scared of each and every dog. When I properly adopted and brought her home, I also brought her to an area which has endless amount of stray dogs around. And hence she was always and always scared of her walks initially. Another fuck up on my end, I realised when I shooed or just raised my hand to gesture that I'm going to hit the other dog, she instantly felt a little confident. And so, I did this for sometime till I didn't have to. I of course never really hurt any of those dogs. But I realised I didn't really fix Spotty's behaviour. I just made her more aggressive I guess. And now I can never get her to stop barking or take another road or even a U-turn from the approaching dog without me pullling and dragging her away.

 

With Spotty even now there's a lot of pulling and dragging. She is very stubborn. I usually let her lead the way and take me wherever she wants to. After all the walks are meant for them. But sometimes either I have to avoid few roads or I have to avoid vehicles or unhygienic places and Spotty doesn't budge and as usual I resort to pulling and dragging. Another problem, entry of Luna my second, meant they both always want to go in different directions and Luna still listens but Spotty doesn't. And sometimes Luna does have to go to places that she likes to, to pee and potty and then again I pull and drag Spotty.

 

It's been 24 days now since I've started your training. And Luna has shown immense progress but let me just run you through Spotty's.

 

After adopting her, I trained Spotty basic ***sit, stand, lie down, jump, paw and other paw***. To be honest, just for the sake of it. It took me Luna and a long time to realise that they need training and brain games for a better life. I can't believe it took me this long but here I am. I hope it's not too for Spotty.

 

So, Spotty still follows sit, stand, lie down, jump, paw and other paw but on her bed. Nowhere but her bed. Not even on my home floor. So, you can tell we haven't done a thing outdoors.

 

I also took my time to understand what the root of this problem is and maybe try and fix it without bothering you. Read more of what you've provided and maybe apply those techniques. I tried everything from changing the reward and making it only high value. I also understood for all dogs reward doesn't necessarily mean treats and food. She loves head pets so I changed to that. I also got her super excited and played with her before starting her training. None of this worked.

 

But today, I had one of my mattress lying on the floor and I thought let me see if that helps and help it did. She followed all the cues/commands she knows flawlessly and instantly. But here's the problem, anywhere outdoors, I obviously can't be carrying a mattress or even a thick quilt. It's already too much handling these two nutties down. So as much as I count that one step that she's taking towards training and learning, I don't know where to take it from here.

 

I also read that the intensity with which a dog takes a treat says a lot about them. If so, Spotty takes treat I would say with anger. She does small attack like thing with her mouth to take them. She sometimes ends up hurting my fingers too. I don't think all these are good signs.

 

She has also not once showed any interest in any of the different toys that I get for her. Never. But she loves to play with me. I do this slow, stealthy hand movement which playfully provokes her and she gets all jumpy and runs back and forth on her bed. That's one other thing I've tried to do outdoors to get her to follow some cue, any cue. Didn't work.

 

So, that's my first baby girl for you.

 

 

Luna came a little shy of nine months ago and was totally totally unplanned. Hehehehe. Anywho, she was a stray from around my area and I would feed her occassionally. Until one day I stopped seeing her and she worried me sick as she wasn't too old. (It's usual for senior strays to just disappear when they know it's their time to go but she was very very young -- under a year I could tell.) Anywho, she magically resurfaced after a fortnight in the worst condition I've ever seen a dog. Front right leg broken and she had lost a lot. She was on verge of dying and I had to take her to the hospital. From there on it was two worst months I've ever had. One sickness after the other came our way. From low hemoglobin to anameia to at present Lymphoma. She was in the hospital for nearly three months and then I just had to get her home. Few months after that went in adjusting her to a new home and Spotty. I separated their food and water bowls of course and yet Spotty would growl at Luna as she drank from her own water bowl. So it was pretty intense back home. And I live in a small house. Like it's not even One BHK. And yes I know many have told me to let dogs live in a small house but I think both my babies are pretty happy with me. Anything is better than being on road, I think.

 

Anywho, initially to just warm them up to each other and not get in fights that would cost us a vet visit, we went for a quick session with one of the trainers here in Mumbai.

 

Their method and approach is quite different and you might agree or disagree but back then it helped me keep them under the same roof.

 

They taught me two quick commands. 'off' and 'no out'. And a newspaper roll to correct them. They said, newspaper roll mimicks the behaviour of the pack leader. And for them you must be the pack leader and correct when needed. The newspaper roll doesn't really hurt them and hence I went ahead with it. As much as it helped me keep Spotty's aggression in check when it came to Luna, it hasn't done more than that anymore. So I'm no longer satisfied with it and I seldom use it.

 

Initially Spotty would get angry and growl at Luna even when Luna drank from her own water bowl. That is how crazy it was at home. 

 

Anywho, now they sleep in the same bed. They are okay sharing the same water bowl. They walk together (although they don't understand when to wait when the other is eliminating). They sometimes even play which brings me immense joy. 

 

Now when it comes to Luna's training. My second makes me proud and proud each and every day.

 

I'll quickly tell you things she has learned and is learning.

 

We are still using lure and treats. Clicker and verbal cue.

 

She follows sit, stand, sit & stay, lie down, heel, attention heel. 

 

I use a verbal cue and very limited action, she follows, I click and treat.

 

I will slowly eliminate even the smaller actions I make. And stick to verbal cue without clicker. 

 

Then like you have explained slowly decrease the amount of treats. Instead of every cue. Maybe after two or three cues.

 

So, that's her training low down for you.

 

And here's where I am stuck. I live in a very busy city. Like even the smaller narrower lanes have vehicles coming both the ways and with them my ears and eyes are all super alert at every walk. Partly because both don't seem to understand or follow anything in all that chaos. 

 

I mean Spotty like you know doesn't obey any cues outdoors. And Luna who does listen to heel and attention heel outdoors is way too distracted upon seeing a person whose vibe either she likes (so goes running to them) or hates (starts lunging and aggressively barking), or vehicles she doesn't like (she will with all her force move past me hence always almost tripping me over and lunging at a fast moving vehicle). It's scary and really breaking my shoulder now.

 

Both do the same lunging and running at cats and rats. And as usual it takes all my strength to either keep them put or pull them back if they've successfully taken me ahead with them. Either way walks have become more and more difficult. And nothing seems to fix this situation. Maybe I haven't tried the right things. I don't know.

 

Also, Spotty who reacts upon seeing any dog is also troublesome now because Luna is learning from her. And both team up against each and every dog. See, few streeties around our area are themselves pretty agressive and we anyway take a sharp u-turn when that's the case. But there are times when the dogs are docile and just minding their business and Spotty will start barking and lunging at the dog. 

 

I am trying this new thing where I instantly turn around when either of them resxt badly towards a dog. We walk a little away and then come back in the direction if the other dog. Walk till either of them react again. I say no and once again turn around. We keep doing thsi again and again till I feel there's some decrement in their growls. I don't know if I should continue this or not. The improvement isn't a lot. But it's not even been that many days.

 

But we do have enough walks. Like easily six a day. Spotty doesn't need more than four. But Luna wants to pee a lot. It was a lot more when she was on Predni (medicine for Lymphoma) and I think now that's become a habit. She sometimes takes me down as much as eight times. She's quite handful that way. 

 

So, that's one more thing I wanted to know is there way for me to maybe reduce her eight to ten walks. We don't have a lift and taking stairs so many times kills me. And there are literally the times when she takes me down for nothing at all. So, then I figured she is bored. So I started playing with her. But nothing. But since the training or at least since we've been training a lot more, her walks have decreased by one and sometimes two. 

 

She also does this weird thing where she gets all agitated and barks at me when my leg moves while sleeping. They both sleep on my bed. And don't like sleeping anywhere else. Spotty besides me and Luna besides my legs. But she gets very angry when legs move naturally. So, now I subconsciously don't move my leg sometimes all night.

 

I think that's all. You must be thinking really? That's a lot. I know. I'm sorry. I wanted to keep it short but I couldn't after a point of time. So I'm super duper sorry about that. But I hope, it you read everything at all -- I hope it helps you understand them better. And if so, then you can direct me with specific training that I must begin with them for their specific issues. Or if that's a lot please just help me understand them better and I will try to work towards it in whatever way I can. 

 

Thank you so much!

 

I enjoy training them alot. We train two times everyday and I even maintain a log for it. It's that much fun. I hope they pass with flying colours and maybe one day I'll share their reports with you. Hehehe. 

 

 

Please take your time. And if you think I've been shameless and asked for a lot, you can absolutely tell it to my face. And I will leave you to it.

 

Thank you once again!

 

I hope you and your family are happy and safe.

 

 

Best,
Manali Panchal.

[Adrienne Farricelli]

Hi Manali,

Thanks for posting here and welcome to the forums! I can sense from your post that you are a very dedicated dog owner and you really deserve a pat on the back for all the work you have been doing for both Spotty and Luna. It is not easy when we have dogs with an unknown past, especially when they have endured traumatic events, and it takes time to allow them to come out of their shell. 

I will be posting for Spotty's issues first. So this first post is for her. I will be quoting some of the issues you are facing for ease of reading. Text appearing in blue is a hyperlink that you can click on for more information. 

"She is extremely scared of firecrackers and rain." 

 

Noise phobias are not the easiest behaviors to tackle, especially when the sounds dogs are fearful of don't occur often enough for a desensitization and counterconditioning program to take effect as it can happen with fireworks. If the fireworks are just once a year, it may therefore help to try to buffer as much as possible sound by playing the TV or radio on and offering to the dog a place to seek shelter that helps the dog feel safe (play pen covered with blankets, bathroom or closet). We can sometimes try to work using recordings of fireworks to help the dog habituate to the sound, but some dogs can tell the difference between recordings and the real thing, but it may still be worth a try. Calming aids may turn helpful too, but severe cases of noise phobias may require prescription medications from a veterinarian to take the edge off. 

 

Here is the "hear that" method I use to desensitize and counter-condition dogs fearful of noises. 

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/fear-noises/

 

About the rain, is Spotty scared of the sound produced by rain or being out in the rain?

 

"She is super duper aggressive around other dogs... I can never get her to stop barking or take another road or even a U-turn from the approaching dog without me pullling and dragging her away."

 

Do you have dogs walking by your home window that Spotty can look at? If so, I would start from here. Here is an exercise you can try:

 

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/brain-training/university/look-at-that/

 

This can be the foundation of an exercise you can then try on walks gradually starting at a distance from which your dog is under threshold and then progress very gradually. Baby steps. 

 

Another problem, entry of Luna my second, meant they both always want to go in different directions and Luna still listens but Spotty doesn't. And sometimes Luna does have to go to places that she likes to, to pee and potty and then again I pull and drag Spotty.

 

Walking two dogs together can be particularly challenging, also because dogs tend to feed off each others' emotions. So Spotty can negatively influence Luna at some point if she spots a dog and reacts, however, if Luna is more confident that can help too. If you have a helper who can walk Luna a little ahead, while you walk Spotty (who sounds like needs your guidance the most on walks) that would be helpful so that each dog can have the individualized attention they need. The other option is to walk each dog separately. 

 

It's been 24 days now since I've started your training. And Luna has shown immense progress....

 

I am very happy to hear that! Pat your back for a job well done and Kudos to Luna!

 

So, Spotty still follows sit, stand, lie down, jump, paw and other paw but on her bed. Nowhere but her bed. Not even on my home floor. So, you can tell we haven't done a thing outdoors.

 I also took my time to understand what the root of this problem is and maybe try and fix it without bothering you. Read more of what you've provided and maybe apply those techniques. I tried everything from changing the reward and making it only high value. I also understood for all dogs reward doesn't necessarily mean treats and food. She loves head pets so I changed to that. I also got her super excited and played with her before starting her training. None of this worked.

 

But today, I had one of my mattress lying on the floor and I thought let me see if that helps and help it did. She followed all the cues/commands she knows flawlessly and instantly. But here's the problem, anywhere outdoors, I obviously can't be carrying a mattress or even a thick quilt. It's already too much handling these two nutties down. So as much as I count that one step that she's taking towards training and learning, I don't know where to take it from here.

 

Sometimes certain dogs dislike floors for some reason or another. Perhaps she doesn't feel much traction on the floor and this scares her or perhaps she doesn't like the cold feel or for some reason she had some unpleasant event take place in the past on a floor (arthritis pain?).  We can only guess. The mattress on the floor is big improvement for her. Next, I would try with a non-slip rug and see how it goes. The jump from indoors to outdoors is quite large though, so you may need more baby steps. For example, you may need to bring a rug outdoors and practice there, before you try outside. 

 

The issue may be more deep-rooted though. Perhaps she doesn't feel safe enough outside to attend to your cues. Since you mentioned in the past she wouldn't walk farther than 300 feet, and the fact she reacts so strongly to dogs on walks, suggests a high level of anxiety. Here's the thing: dogs cannot cognitively function well they are anxious. It's sort of like asking a person terrified of heights to solve a math problem for sake of comparison. So we may need to work more on helping her feel safe in her surroundings through positive associations. 

 

I also read that the intensity with which a dog takes a treat says a lot about them. If so, Spotty takes treat I would say with anger. She does small attack like thing with her mouth to take them. She sometimes ends up hurting my fingers too. I don't think all these are good signs.

 

Yes, a dog who takes treats quickly and roughly can be a sign of a dog being over threshold. However, it can also be just a matter of the dog never learning to take treats with more finesse. It can help to do this exercise with her: https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/train-dog-take-treats-gently/ But you also want to monitor in what contexts she takes treats roughly to evaluate whether there is something that is preoccupying her. Last but not least, some dogs may have an uneven bite (malocclusion) and this may cause them to take treats roughly, but this is something your vet would have likely noticed on a physical exam. 

 

She has also not once showed any interest in any of the different toys that I get for her. Never. But she loves to play with me. I do this slow, stealthy hand movement which playfully provokes her and she gets all jumpy and runs back and forth on her bed. That's one other thing I've tried to do outdoors to get her to follow some cue, any cue. Didn't work.

 

I take again the fact that she doesn't follow your playful movement outdoors as a sign that she is not at ease. Playing is incompatible with being anxious, meaning that in general dogs play only when they feel safe and relaxed. It could be that outdoors she is too hypervigilant about her surroundings and your play and training for this reason doesn't generalize and "carry outside."

 

[Adrienne Farricelli]

Initially Spotty would get angry and growl at Luna even when Luna drank from her own water bowl. That is how crazy it was at home. Anywho, now they sleep in the same bed. They are okay sharing the same water bowl. They walk together (although they don't understand when to wait when the other is eliminating). They sometimes even play which brings me immense joy. 

I am very glad to hear your two dogs are doing better and getting more along now. It sounds like they needed some adjustment period to get acquainted and once they got things sorted out, they were able to  find a mutual agreement and now can co-habitate tolerating each other.  I am sure it must feel very good to see them sleep and play.  

 

Here's where I am stuck. I live in a very busy city. Like even the smaller narrower lanes have vehicles coming both the ways and with them my ears and eyes are all super alert at every walk. Partly because both don't seem to understand or follow anything in all that chaos. 

 

I mean Spotty like you know doesn't obey any cues outdoors. And Luna who does listen to heel and attention heel outdoors is way too distracted upon seeing a person whose vibe either she likes (so goes running to them) or hates (starts lunging and aggressively barking), or vehicles she doesn't like (she will with all her force move past me hence always almost tripping me over and lunging at a fast moving vehicle). It's scary and really breaking my shoulder now.

 

Both do the same lunging and running at cats and rats. And as usual it takes all my strength to either keep them put or pull them back if they've successfully taken me ahead with them. Either way walks have become more and more difficult. And nothing seems to fix this situation. Maybe I haven't tried the right things. I don't know.

 

Also, Spotty who reacts upon seeing any dog is also troublesome now because Luna is learning from her. And both team up against each and every dog. See, few streeties around our area are themselves pretty agressive and we anyway take a sharp u-turn when that's the case. But there are times when the dogs are docile and just minding their business and Spotty will start barking and lunging at the dog.

 

I really understand your situation. Many years ago, when my dogs were younger I was really trying hard to walk them together. I was really determined and believed that if I equipped myself with big willpower I would have achieved anything including walking them together.  Well, I was wrong and was just setting myself for failure.  Two large and not fully trained dogs and one petite woman is not a good match. Yes, it's true, training dogs is more about using your brain than relying on strength, but I was doing things backwards. 

 

Only once I started walking them one at a time was I able to see progress. Each dog received the individualized attention they needed and I was able to work on many levels I couldn't tackle before. Only after lots of practice one-by-one, was I able to see improvements on their walks.

 

Also, using a front-attachment harness helped a lot. A front -attachment harness (e.g. the Sensation harness, the Easy Walk harness,  the Walk your dog with love harness) made a world on difference along with training each dog individually and doing lots of reps of attention heeling in presence of distractions and Look at that exercises. 

 

I am trying this new thing where I instantly turn around when either of them resxt badly towards a dog. We walk a little away and then come back in the direction if the other dog. Walk till either of them react again. I say no and once again turn around. We keep doing thsi again and again till I feel there's some decrement in their growls. I don't know if I should continue this or not. The improvement isn't a lot. But it's not even been that many days.

 

This sounds similar to the emergency u-turn: https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/emergency-u-turn/

There are several benefits, the biggest being it that if you do it in a timely matter, you prevent rehearsal of the barking and lunging. The more a dog rehearses a problematic behavior, the more it puts root. It's a good management strategy for those times when a dog is coming your way and you aren't prepared for working on the issue. 

 

Luna wants to pee a lot. It was a lot more when she was on Predni (medicine for Lymphoma) and I think now that's become a habit. She sometimes takes me down as much as eight times. She's quite handful that way.  So, that's one more thing I wanted to know is there way for me to maybe reduce her eight to ten walks. We don't have a lift and taking stairs so many times kills me. And there are literally the times when she takes me down for nothing at all. So, then I figured she is bored. So I started playing with her. But nothing. But since the training or at least since we've been training a lot more, her walks have decreased by one and sometimes two. 

 

Interesting how being on the prednisone may have made peeing a habit! If she is off this drug, it could very likely be that she just wants to spend time outside or just un-learned to hold it for long. However, always best to make sure she isn't suffering from a urinary tract infection so I would mention it to the vet. It could also be she is urine marking rather than really peeing. Does she produce a large amount? is she spayed?  

 

She also does this weird thing where she gets all agitated and barks at me when my leg moves while sleeping. They both sleep on my bed. And don't like sleeping anywhere else. Spotty besides me and Luna besides my legs. But she gets very angry when legs move naturally. So, now I subconsciously don't move my leg sometimes all night.

 

 Subconsciously not moving your leg at night to not upset your dog, must take quite some effort. That's very nice of you. It sounds like your dog has a strong startle response from being awakened by your leg movement. Generally, in an ideal situation, we expect a dog awakened by the owner accidentally brushing against his fur to care less about it or wake up, lift her head and look around and go back to sleep. Some dogs may lightly startle upon being woken up, but their startle responses don't involve aggression. The dog may perhaps yawn (not because he's tired but more because he got startled) and then go back to sleep. And then some dogs like yours may act grumpy when awakened from napping, and any touch may evoke an episode of growling or snarling. While these latter dogs may "use their words," there is always a risk for escalation and a potential bite. 

 

Now, something worth precising is that, just because some dogs react this way, doesn't necessarily mean that they are aggressive dogs. These dogs may be wonderful, sweet dogs when awake. It's just that they may react out of confusion sometimes. Many of these sweet dogs act almost confused and then apologetic once they realize they are in familiar surroundings with their loving owners. This form of startle response may be due to behavioral issues but may also stem from medical and neurological issues, and therefore, requires a close evaluation by a veterinarian and/or veterinary behaviorist.

 

The safest option of course in the meanwhile would be sleeping in a separated area. Also considering that excessive wakening up startled may create a vicious cycle of the dog being tense, relaxing enough to sleep, being tense etc. which may impact the dog's quality of sleep and may trigger a worsening reaction over time. 

 

I hope this helps!

Let me know if you need further assistance or want me to go more in depth on something and we can do more troubleshooting. Please keep me posted on how things go. 

Happy training!

Best,

Adrienne

 

Disclaimer: behavior modification comes with risks. If your puppy or dog is showing any signs of aggression, please report to a dog behavior professional for an-in person assessments and guidance for safety and correct implementation of behavior modification techniques. 

 

[Manali]

Hiii Adrienne,

Thank you for your prompt and insightful reply.

Just as you I will also use quotes to further talk about a given behaviour or ask you of doubts that I have. As always thank you for your patience.

Will post in two parts too. Starting with Spotty and then Luna.

Starting now.

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Noise phobias are not the easiest behaviors to tackle, especially when the sounds dogs are fearful of don't occur often enough for a desensitization and counterconditioning program to take effect as it can happen with fireworks.

They do happen often. It's one of the most annoying things here. I will definitely look into the music you've provided. 

And I'll try playing recording of fireworks and let you know how that went.

Usually she just finds an isolated corner and cowers in there. I let her be. I also close all my windows and play something rather normal on TV to give her the sense of normalcy.

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Do you have dogs walking by your home window that Spotty can look at? If so, I would start from here. Here is an exercise you can try:

Ummm no. We actually live in a building/apartment set up and on the third floor. But maybe with the help of my friends I can work towards it outdoors?

Or does it have to have a window set up for it to work?

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If you have a helper who can walk Luna a little ahead, while you walk Spotty (who sounds like needs your guidance the most on walks) that would be helpful so that each dog can have the individualized attention they need. The other option is to walk each dog separately.

Actually I take babies to office with me everyday. And over there, me and my colleagues cum friends join us for every walk. It works as a good break for all of us. Since the lockdown we are all home but I'll definitely get to it once the lockdown is a little relaxed over here.

But, when we do walk them seperately what are the things to keep in mind? Should I concentrate on a specific cue like heel, look into my eyes or leave it.

And if we see a dog at a distance can we put the 'look at that' exercise to use? And if do once they do respond positively to the cue, is it okay to keep walking towards that dog's direction? Or should we change the direction?

And in the same area I have one more dumb question. I read desensitising and counterconditioning. But I'm confused if we give them a treat to help them relax in a situation in which they usually get stressed about (even as we take it slow) won't it actually make them even more reactive to it? I don't think I'm articulating this well.

I mean usually we give a treat after a favourable behaviour or action to encourage and boost the thing they did. They sit we give them treat. Sitting is great for them now. But the case in point, they are barking or lunging at a dog or a vehicle and I give them a treat, won't they learn that barking at that dog or the vehicle is but in fact great and won't that reinforce the behaviour even more? 

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I am very happy to hear that! Pat your back for a job well done and Kudos to Luna!

Thank you! I am actively using 'leave it' a lot more on walks. As she lunges and makes a run for almost anything --- bus, car, cat, rat, crow, even a flying leaf.

So is that okay? Or is there some other cue for this behaviour?

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Sometimes certain dogs dislike floors for some reason or another. Perhaps she doesn't feel much traction on the floor and this scares her or perhaps she doesn't like the cold feel or for some reason she had some unpleasant event take place in the past on a floor (arthritis pain?).

She doesn't have arthritis. As I'm writing this, today out of nowhere, Spotty followed sit cue on the house floor without any mattress on it. God knows what made her do it. But she did at least a good six to seven times. But I wasn't ready for it and didn't have my clicker around. So didn't use clicker. Just gave her the cue, she would take her time but she would sit and then I would give her treats and praise her a lot, in a very happy excited way. Is it okay if I don't use the clicker to train her? Initially she was very very very scared of it. She still is to some degree. So can I just do cue → (she follows) → treat → praise (I say 'yes'). Can I do this for Spotty if she isn't relaxed around a clicker?

Also, I'll definitely start with a rug transition for Spotty.

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Yes, a dog who takes treats quickly and roughly can be a sign of a dog being over threshold. However, it can also be just a matter of the dog never learning to take treats with more finesse. It can help to do this exercise with her: https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/train-dog-take-treats-gently/ But you also want to monitor in what contexts she takes treats roughly to evaluate whether there is something that is preoccupying her. Last but not least, some dogs may have an uneven bite (malocclusion) and this may cause them to take treats roughly, but this is something your vet would have likely noticed on a physical exam.

Will look into this. And will begin with the 'gentle' training. I missed stating this before so I'll just say it now. I think sometimes she does that when Luna is around and nearing her. And otherwise when I don't give her a treat because I'm patiently waiting for her to follow a cue.

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Playing is incompatible with being anxious, meaning that in general dogs play only when they feel safe and relaxed.

But why won't she show any interest in any toys at home too? I get so many toys and not once does she nibble with them, bite them, or fetch them. None of it interests her. Why would that be the case? Or do you think few dogs are just never interested in toys. But won't playing with them help her mental stimulation?  

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[Manali]

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Only once I started walking them one at a time was I able to see progress. Each dog received the individualized attention they needed and I was able to work on many levels I couldn't tackle before. Only after lots of practice one-by-one, was I able to see improvements on their walks.

I think I've asked this before if so ignore. But what cues and things should I keep in mind while walking each dog individually to help them better understand me and make walks easier on my arms and shoulders.

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Also, using a front-attachment harness helped a lot. A front -attachment harness (e.g. the Sensation harness, the Easy Walk harness,  the Walk your dog with love harness) made a world on difference along with training each dog individually and doing lots of reps of attention heeling in presence of distractions and Look at that exercises.

We do use harnesses for both but they aren't front attachment ones. So, I'll look into them. Just of curiosity how are they better than regular harnesses?

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Interesting how being on the prednisone may have made peeing a habit! If she is off this drug, it could very likely be that she just wants to spend time outside or just un-learned to hold it for long. However, always best to make sure she isn't suffering from a urinary tract infection so I would mention it to the vet. It could also be she is urine marking rather than really peeing. Does she produce a large amount? is she spayed?

I will definitely check with my vet when lockdown eases out. And yes she pees each and every time we go down. She produces a lot a lot in the morning and otherwise they are good medium quantity. In the morning it's a river.

Yes, she is spayed.

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Generally, in an ideal situation, we expect a dog awakened by the owner accidentally brushing against his fur to care less about it or wake up, lift her head and look around and go back to sleep.

Will do.

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Now, something worth precising is that, just because some dogs react this way, doesn't necessarily mean that they are aggressive dogs. These dogs may be wonderful, sweet dogs when awake. It's just that they may react out of confusion sometimes. Many of these sweet dogs act almost confused and then apologetic once they realize they are in familiar surroundings with their loving owners. This form of startle response may be due to behavioral issues but may also stem from medical and neurological issues, and therefore, requires a close evaluation by a veterinarian and/or veterinary behaviorist.

I'll have a word with my vet on this too.

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The safest option of course in the meanwhile would be sleeping in a separated area. Also considering that excessive wakening up startled may create a vicious cycle of the dog being tense, relaxing enough to sleep, being tense etc. which may impact the dog's quality of sleep and may trigger a worsening reaction over time.

Are you saying this will become a habit? And the only way to eliminate it is by giving her a seperate place to sleep in? But she doesn't. She ends up coming to my bed. So what do I do?

In addition to these, a couple of other things that I've started noticing and that I'd like to pick your brain for are:

• Both of them have become more reactive since I've started using few cues and giving them treats on their walk. Like as we walk, sometimes I ask them to heel or look into my eyes or stay and if they catch on someone seeing us they both lose their shit. Do you think it's because they are protecting their treats? And if they are, should i stop training them outside? How will they learn at all then?
   
• Spotty doesn't respond to her name outside at all. She does at home. In the building compound. But not outside. I guess she is always more anxious outside like you've said before. But what can I do to bring her at ease and make walks more fun and happy? And also, how do I get her to simply respond when I call her? I mean I did the bit where I take her name, click the clicker and treat her. And all that works fine at home. Even without clicker and even without treats. But outside, neither clicker no treats seems to interest her or get her attention. How can I make her more confident and make her trust me?

Thank you as always. Please take your time and see us when can. We are making slow but good progress with the help of your training. 

Spotty is now finally sitting on the house floor without the mattress. 

Thank you so much!

Hoping you and your family are safe and happy!

See you soon!

[Adrienne]

On 4/27/2020 at 4:30 PM, JenaiDalal said:

Thanks for the additional details, they are very helpful!

"They do happen often. It's one of the most annoying things here. I will definitely look into the music you've provided. And I'll try playing recording of fireworks and let you know how that went. Usually she just finds an isolated corner and cowers in there. I let her be. I also close all my windows and play something rather normal on TV to give her the sense of normalcy.

Oh no, that must be very frustrating! I can't imagine poor noise-sensitive dogs having to deal with firecrackers as a year-round ordeal. Well, if they happen often enough, that makes her a potential good candidate for the "hear that" method.  I would therefore try as much as possible to yes, buffer the noises as much as possible as you are already doing (closing windows/playing TV/calming music) and then I would carry around a treat pouch with the yummiest treats/dog -safe foods she loves (thinking along the terms of chicken,  freeze-dried liver) and every time a firecracker sounds off, you toss her a tasty morsel. If she won't take it, it's sign she's over threshold and you may need to find a way to make the sounds less intimidating. Severe cases may need medications from the vet to put the dog under threshold.

You can try with the recording on a low volume, but for some reason, it doesn't work for all dogs, it's as if they know it's not the real thing, but it can be a starting point, so that when the real ones happen she may be like "oh, I know that noise, it's the one that predicts chicken!"

Ummm no. We actually live in a building/apartment set up and on the third floor. But maybe with the help of my friends I can work towards it outdoors? Or does it have to have a window set up for it to work?

I like to start from a window, but there are other options. For example, you can start from the entryway to your building so that your dog feels a little safer knowing that she can retreat. Distance is your best friend for these exercises. You can also try on walks, always making sure your dog is under threshold. Here is an example of a variant method I used with a dog who was reactive: https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/case-studies/03-homer-homers-reactivity/

But, when we do walk them seperately what are the things to keep in mind? Should I concentrate on a specific cue like heel, look into my eyes or leave it.And if we see a dog at a distance can we put the 'look at that' exercise to use? And if do once they do respond positively to the cue, is it okay to keep walking towards that dog's direction? Or should we change the direction?

With dog-to-dog reactivity, our primary goal at first is to create strong positive associations to the point of obtaining a positive conditioned emotional response. I would aim to have your dog look at you by making a smacking sound with your mouth every time they see a dog at a distance. I would not continue to walk towards the other's dogs' direction until your dog has progressed so much that is comfortable. It's a step-by-step thing, where we need to pay close attention to the dog's body language. The biggest mistake is going too fast in the process which creates set-backs, meaning that you will have to go back a step or more and progress again from there.  Here is a method that can be worked in conjunction with look at that: https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/open-bar-closed-bar

And in the same area I have one more dumb question. I read desensitising and counterconditioning. But I'm confused if we give them a treat to help them relax in a situation in which they usually get stressed about (even as we take it slow) won't it actually make them even more reactive to it? I don't think I'm articulating this well. I mean usually we give a treat after a favourable behaviour or action to encourage and boost the thing they did. They sit we give them treat. Sitting is great for them now. But the case in point, they are barking or lunging at a dog or a vehicle and I give them a treat, won't they learn that barking at that dog or the vehicle is but in fact great and won't that reinforce the behaviour even more? 

Great question! Desensitization and counterconditioning fall under behavior modification. With this, we are aiming to changing the dog's emotional response. In dog training, we are providing treats to reinforce behaviors so to make them repeat. This falls under operant conditioning (B. F. Skinner) Dog operates (performs a behavior) and reinforcement encourages it. In behavior modification instead we are mostly working on creating associations. Dogs sees something that emotionally upsets her/ and treats aim to create positive associations.  This falls under classical conditioning (Ivan Pavlov).

Once we have the dog's emotions better under control and the dog is better able to cognitively function, we can then aim to ask for behaviors and move onto operant conditioning. So for sake of an example, imagine being terrorized of heights. You are led to the top of a big building and asked to solve a math problem. Most likely, you cannot focus. So a therapist offers to help you out, by giving you a 10 dollar bill every time you look down a little bit. After some time, you look forward to getting paper money and get more confident looking down and become less worried about the heights. Once you are relaxed enough, you realize that you are then able to even solve the math problem! This is what we are trying to achieve.

Thank you! I am actively using 'leave it' a lot more on walks. As she lunges and makes a run for almost anything --- bus, car, cat, rat, crow, even a flying leaf.

So is that okay? Or is there some other cue for this behaviour?

It depends on whether this behavior is based on fear or not or whether it's predatory drive. If it's working for you though, I see no harm. 

She doesn't have arthritis. As I'm writing this, today out of nowhere, Spotty followed sit cue on the house floor without any mattress on it. God knows what made her do it. But she did at least a good six to seven times. But I wasn't ready for it and didn't have my clicker around. So didn't use clicker. Just gave her the cue, she would take her time but she would sit and then I would give her treats and praise her a lot, in a very happy excited way. Is it okay if I don't use the clicker to train her? Initially she was very very very scared of it. She still is to some degree. So can I just do cue → (she follows) → treat → praise (I say 'yes'). Can I do this for Spotty if she isn't relaxed around a clicker? Also, I'll definitely start with a rug transition for Spotty.

Yay! So glad to hear that she is sitting without the mattress! If you don't have your clicker, you can use a verbal marker. If she already though understands "sit" you no longer need a clicker (clickers are mostly for learning new skills) and can use use praise as you feed a treat. Since she takes her time, at some point once the behavior gets more fluent on the floor, you may want to praise always, but reward with a treat only the faster sits. 

If your dog is not comfortable with the clicker, you can stick to the verbal marker when teaching new skills and then move on to praise/treats once it becomes fluent. 

Will look into this. And will begin with the 'gentle' training. I missed stating this before so I'll just say it now. I think sometimes she does that when Luna is around and nearing her. And otherwise when I don't give her a treat because I'm patiently waiting for her to follow a cue.

Then, if it happens when Luna is approaching, most likely we are dealing with some competition. 

But why won't she show any interest in any toys at home too? I get so many toys and not once does she nibble with them, bite them, or fetch them. None of it interests her. Why would that be the case? Or do you think few dogs are just never interested in toys. But won't playing with them help her mental stimulation?  

There are some dogs that are not interested in toys, but in most cases I find it's that they may be particular in what toys they like. It could be that in her former life without you, play was a low priority with more importance to avoiding dangers and searching for food and eating. Have you ever tried toys made out of rabbit fur? 

_____________

 

Edited April 28, 2020 by AdrienneFarricelli

[Manali]

Hi Adrienne!

This time I've quoted few of my previous questions along with the things you've said this time so that you can sort-of have a trail of what we've been talking about.

As always thank you for helping all three of us.

Let's get to it. 

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Well, if they happen often enough, that makes her a potential good candidate for the "hear that" method.

Is "head that" another conditioning method? Could you link me to that?

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You can try with the recording on a low volume, but for some reason, it doesn't work for all dogs, it's as if they know it's not the real thing, but it can be a starting point, so that when the real ones happen she may be like "oh, I know that noise, it's the one that predicts chicken!"

Okay perfect!

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I like to start from a window, but there are other options. For example, you can start from the entryway to your building so that your dog feels a little safer knowing that she can retreat. Distance is your best friend for these exercises. You can also try on walks, always making sure your dog is under threshold. Here is an example of a variant method I used with a dog who was reactive: https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/case-studies/03-homer-homers-reactivity/

I will definitely need my friends to do this. But once I'm on it I'll keep you posted so that I don't fuck up. I don't want to by mistake end up encouraging a wrong behaviour in any way.

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With dog-to-dog reactivity, our primary goal at first is to create strong positive associations to the point of obtaining a positive conditioned emotional response. I would aim to have your dog look at you by making a smacking sound with your mouth every time they see a dog at a distance. I would not continue to walk towards the other's dogs' direction until your dog has progressed so much that is comfortable. It's a step-by-step thing, where we need to pay close attention to the dog's body language. The biggest mistake is going too fast in the process which creates set-backs, meaning that you will have to go back a step or more and progress again from there.  Here is a method that can be worked in conjunction with look at that: https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/open-bar-closed-bar

Understood. Again will need my friends. Will keep you posted on the progress once we start.

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Great question! Desensitization and counterconditioning fall under behavior modification. With this, we are aiming to changing the dog's emotional response. In dog training, we are providing treats to reinforce behaviors so to make them repeat. This falls under operant conditioning (B. F. Skinner) Dog operates (performs a behavior) and reinforcement encourages it. In behavior modification instead we are mostly working on creating associations. Dogs sees something that emotionally upsets her/ and treats aim to create positive associations.  This falls under classical conditioning (Ivan Pavlov).

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Once we have the dog's emotions better under control and the dog is better able to cognitively function, we can then aim to ask for behaviors and move onto operant conditioning. So for sake of an example, imagine being terrorized of heights. You are led to the top of a big building and asked to solve a math problem. Most likely, you cannot focus. So a therapist offers to help you out, by giving you a 10 dollar bill every time you look down a little bit. After some time, you look forward to getting paper money and get more confident looking down and become less worried about the heights. Once you are relaxed enough, you realize that you are then able to even solve the math problem! This is what we are trying to achieve.

But in no way would they think that barking when they see a dog is what's getting them treats?

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Thank you! I am actively using 'leave it' a lot more on walks. As she lunges and makes a run for almost anything --- bus, car, cat, rat, crow, even a flying leaf.

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So is that okay? Or is there some other cue for this behaviour?

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It depends on whether this behavior is based on fear or not or whether it's predatory drive. If it's working for you though, I see no harm.

No, I would assume it's mostly high predatory drive with the exception of one vehicle which is quite common in our City -- Rickshaw. They don't come around my area that often but since lockdown they have been allowed entry in and around my area and she barks at them a lot. I think that's because she's never seen them here before and is scared of them. I nonetheless use same "leave it" or "stay" in this case. Should I not? And just use them when she lunges at cats, cars, rat, crows?

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Yay! So glad to hear that she is sitting without the mattress! If you don't have your clicker, you can use a verbal marker. If she already though understands "sit" you no longer need a clicker (clickers are mostly for learning new skills) and can use use praise as you feed a treat. Since she takes her time, at some point once the behavior gets more fluent on the floor, you may want to praise always, but reward with a treat only the faster sits.

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If your dog is not comfortable with the clicker, you can stick to the verbal marker when teaching new skills and then move on to praise/treats once it becomes fluent.

Gotcha!!!

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Will look into this. And will begin with the 'gentle' training. I missed stating this before so I'll just say it now. I think sometimes she does that when Luna is around and nearing her. And otherwise when I don't give her a treat because I'm patiently waiting for her to follow a cue.

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Then, if it happens when Luna is approaching, most likely we are dealing with some competition.

Competition? Is that something I should be concerned about? And does this also dent their behaviour in a long run? Any specific behaviour modification that I should read to tackle this?

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There are some dogs that are not interested in toys, but in most cases I find it's that they may be particular in what toys they like. It could be that in her former life without you, play was a low priority with more importance to avoiding dangers and searching for food and eating. Have you ever tried toys made out of rabbit fur?

By that do you mean actual rabbit fur used to make a toy? Or just like a rabbit looking toy? I haven't gotten her either of them in any case hehhehehe. But let me know the one you are talking about and I'll buy it.

As always, loads of love to you. Thank you!

Stay safe!

_____

[Adrienne]

2 hours ago, Manali said:

Hi there! 

Your are very welcome!  See my answers. 

Is "hear that" another conditioning method? Could you link me to that?

Yes, it's a method crafted with noise-sensitive dogs or dogs with noise phobias in mind.  It's in the first article I posted in my previous reply in the bottom paragraphs . Here is the link again in case you missed it: 

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/fear-noises/

But in no way would they think that barking when they see a dog is what's getting them treats?

We want to avoid as much as possible having the dog barking in the first place. That is why it's important to work with the dog under threshold and with the help of a professional for correct behavior modification as barking tells us we are likely too close to the trigger and we are allowing the dog to feel stress. However, let's say that we happen to give a dog treats while he's barking (out of fear, suspicion, stress), will that make the dog think that barking is what's getting them the treats? Great question!

I am posting a video from the late Dr. Sophia Yin, an animal behaviorist working on an aggressive dog that growls upon being blown in the face. You can see how the growling subsides despite her giving treats, that's because she is tackling the underlying emotional state. 

No, I would assume it's mostly high predatory drive with the exception of one vehicle which is quite common in our City -- Rickshaw. They don't come around my area that often but since lockdown they have been allowed entry in and around my area and she barks at them a lot. I think that's because she's never seen them here before and is scared of them. I nonetheless use same "leave it" or "stay" in this case. Should I not? And just use them when she lunges at cats, cars, rat, crows?

When there is a fear component, it helps to use more Look at That/Open Bar Closed Bar method by using high-value treats every time the dog sees the triggers at a distance she's more comfortable. So if she is scared on that type of vehicle it may work better. 

Competition? Is that something I should be concerned about? And does this also dent their behaviour in a long run? Any specific behaviour modification that I should read to tackle this?

There is almost always some level of competition going on in dogs sharing the household. Dogs do not typically share their foods (there are always exceptions to the rule though!) with others because doing so would be considered maladaptive. If it's just consuming the treats faster/ more roughly, there are chances it will just remain at that, but sometimes it can suggestive of the beginning of resource guarding so always good to watch them carefully. It helps for safety to make sure each dog has enough space between each other when they are being fed their meals and that when you do training no other dog can come nearby to try to snatch away treats. 

By that do you mean actual rabbit fur used to make a toy? Or just like a rabbit looking toy? I haven't gotten her either of them in any case hehhehehe. But let me know the one you are talking about and I'll buy it.

Toys made out of real rabbit fur. The smell of rabbit from the fur sometimes can get dogs really interested in them, although I can't guarantee it will work with all dogs. If you Google "Rabbit skin tug toy" you may get some examples.

 

 

[Adrienne]

On 4/27/2020 at 4:34 PM, Manali said:

I think I've asked this before if so ignore. But what cues and things should I keep in mind while walking each dog individually to help them better understand me and make walks easier on my arms and shoulders. We do use harnesses for both but they aren't front attachment ones. So, I'll look into them. Just of curiosity how are they better than regular harnesses?

I would aim on working primarily on behavior modification to tackle the emotional response and heeling and attention heeling.

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/brain-training/obedience-101/heeling-attention-heeling/

The great thing is that once your dog/dogs have learned to reliably respond to the smacking sound described in Look at That and begin to be calmer on walks, when they notice a dog approaching at a distance,  you can then incorporate a few steps of attention heeling. So it would go like this: Spotty sees a dog at a distance, you make your smacking sound, and she looks at your for the treat, you hold the treat at your eye level and let her walk besides you a few steps gazing into your eyes before delivering the treat. Of course, in the meanwhile, you can practice heeling an attention heeling right away in areas where your dogs are calmer and there are no dogs.  

With a front-attachment harness, the leash attaches to a front ring right by the dog's chest area, which encourages the dog to walk by your side, therefore, should the dog pull, often in the worst case, the dog will pivot around, but this time towards you; whereas, in regular harnesses the leash attaches to a ring in the back and if the dog pulls, you're often just dragged for the ride!  So a front-attachment harness gives more steering power since it controls the shoulders and chest area. Now,  no training tool should be used as a replacement for training. If your dog pulls, a front attaching harness can help you out, but your main goal remains to train loose-leash walking for more pleasant walks, and most of all, to improve your relationship with your dog. 

Are you saying this will become a habit? And the only way to eliminate it is by giving her a separate place to sleep in? But she doesn't. She ends up coming to my bed. So what do I do?

It could, but we may not really know. It would be important finding out why this is happening and it would help discussing with the vet to rule out anything neurological or whether this may be a sleep disorder. This may require in-depth investigation, possibly from a specialist. I would ask your vet's opinion on this because if it is stemming from something medical, it won't subside until that issue is addressed or at least managed in a certain way. 

In addition to these, a couple of other things that I've started noticing and that I'd like to pick your brain for are:

• Both of them have become more reactive since I've started using few cues and giving them treats on their walk. Like as we walk, sometimes I ask them to heel or look into my eyes or stay and if they catch on someone seeing us they both lose their shit. Do you think it's because they are protecting their treats? And if they are, should i stop training them outside? How will they learn at all then?

Interesting. Without seeing the behavior in person, it is hard to say what may be happening here. I would no longer walk them together. As mentioned, when walked together, they feed off each others' emotions so things tend to escalate rather than get better. 

• Spotty doesn't respond to her name outside at all. She does at home. In the building compound. But not outside. I guess she is always more anxious outside like you've said before. But what can I do to bring her at ease and make walks more fun and happy? And also, how do I get her to simply respond when I call her? I mean I did the bit where I take her name, click the clicker and treat her. And all that works fine at home. Even without clicker and even without treats. But outside, neither clicker no treats seems to interest her or get her attention. How can I make her more confident and make her trust me?

Anxiety certainly plays a role, making things more challenging than usual. In non-anxious dogs though we too encounter difficulties in generalization. In other words, dogs struggle to generalize the behavior of responding to cues in quieter settings to more distracting areas. So we need to go very gradually. Every time we call then and they do not respond, we risk lowering the power of the recall. So it's very important to set the dog up for success and we want to keep giving treats for every successful recall. Here is the guide on recalls:

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/brain-training/obedience-101/recall/

To make walks more fun, make sure great things happen on walks. Happy talk, positive associations with triggers by using high value treats. It takes time to get them to comfortable levels. Slow and steady wins the race. 

 

 

[Manali]

Thank you so much, Adrienne! You've been such a big help in training and understanding my dogs better. Thank you.

Working on all the notes one day at a time. You've given me a lot to study and look into. So, I'm going to focus extensively on it. I'll of course (sorry) bug you every now and then. But, I think for a very long time we are sorted with the course and all the extra notes you've given us. As always, thank you!

Hope you, your family and friends are safe and sound!

Loads of love,

Manali, Spotty & Luna!

[Adrienne]

You are very welcome!

Keep me posted on how things go and I am always here if you have any questions.

Send pats to your doggies!

Best,

Adrienne