Newbie clicker question

[JeffreyScorsone]

Hi,

I've got a 6 year old english shepherd and I'm trying to retrain her.  We did basic obedience when she was a pup, but over the years she seems to have regressed.  She'll follow commands, but on her terms.  If I say "come"  she will first run to find a toy, and then come to me.  Sit and down work pretty well, but she's sometimes very slow to respond and even waits for us to say it a few times.  So I'm starting your class at the beginning and trying to step her through obedience again but now with a clicker.  This brings a few questions.

Do I treat after every click?  I feel like I've gone through the charging the clicker process but she was more interested in the treats than anything.  I tried the airplane game and I'm not quite sure she got it.  We stopped when I ran out of treats in my pocket.  Then I've been clicking and treating when I tell her to sit or down.  I'm not sure what she's associating the click with.  She seems to just associate it with "come here I've got treats for you".  I was working on "leave it"  earlier while playing fetch.  She doesn't like to let go of here ball.  When she does, as soon as your hand gets near it she darts in and grabs it.  When she would leave it alone and not try to grab it before me, I clicked and treated.  She then lost all interest in her ball and it took a while to get her to go fetch it and play again.  She heard that click, just sat there waiting for treats. 

Am I doing something wrong?

Does a click always mean treat?

 

Thanks,

-Jeff

 

 

[Adrienne]

Hello and welcome to the forums!

Does a click always mean treat?

A click is always followed by a treat. It marks the desired behavior so that the behavior is likely to strengthen and repeat (the core of positive reinforcement training).

The click tells the dog:"yes, you got it right, come get your treat." So if your dog perceived it as "come here I've got treats for you" that's fine as long as this happens after she has performed the desired behavior and you are not showing visible treats in a bribe/like fashion (keep them in a your pocket or treat bag).  In clicker training, we don't just dole out treats for free (other than during the brief charging phase), we give treats for performance, basically a job well done.

If a treat wouldn't follow each click,  we would be un-charging the clicker, weakening it and making it less effective.  The good news though is that once the dog has learned the behavior at a fluent enough level, we can stop using the clicker and replace it's clicking sound with a verbal marker/praise. Also, we can move on from giving a treat for every correct response to giving treats intermittently. A clicker therefore comes mostly handy for the acquisition stage of learning, once the behavior is learned to the point of fluency, we can ditch its use for that behavior. You can read more the process here: 

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/always-use-clicker/

 If I say "come"  she will first run to find a toy, and then come to me.

If your dog tends to to run to get a toy before she comes to you, try removing toys around so that you can set her up for success in coming to you directly. If she's a bit reluctant, try to get her to chase you in a fun game. Then, you can praise and reward her with several treats in a row. 

It is best to not fall in the trap of repeating commands. When we do so, we are just training the dog that the command is no longer "sit" but "sit, sit, sit" so dogs may not sit until they hear us say it multiple times or in a different tone of voice. This is not a matter of a dog willingly disobeying, they just likely truly come to think that the command hasbecome a repeated series of words or said in a certain tone. We also need to pay attention to whether the area we are training is too distracting and what interferes with her training. 

If she's reluctant to drop the ball, this can be suggestive that she hasn't learned to associate the verbal cue drop with a high-value exchange yet (she may perceive the ball more valuable than the treat) or she may be a bit possessive over the ball (in which case it would be important enlisting the help of a dog behavior professional).

I would suggest working on practicing drops with lower valued items at least for now. A ball can turn valuable when it's tossed and we may also want to keep it for her fetching pleasure.  So perhaps start with something lower value that she carries around when not playing fetch. A toy (not ball used for fetching) that is around frequently may be an option.

The moment she has the toy in her mouth, say “drop it” and show her a treat by holding it next to her nose. She will most likely drop the toy so she can get the treat. As soon as she drops the toy, use your verbal marker or click the clicker and give her the treat. You can toss the treat at a distance so that you can safely grab the item dropped to practice again.

Then follow the next guidelines as explained in here:

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/brain-training/obedience-101/drop-it/

If your dog ever shows signs of has shown signs in the past of being possessive (freezing, growling, snarling, grabbing things before you can) please consult with a dog behavior professional for help. 

I noticed that you said  " I was working on "leave it"  earlier while playing fetch.  She doesn't like to let go of here ball.  When she does, as soon as your hand gets near it she darts in and grabs it.  When she would leave it alone and not try to grab it before me, I clicked and treated.  She then lost all interest in her ball and it took a while to get her to go fetch it and play again.  She heard that click, just sat there waiting for treats. "

We need to make a distinction here between leave it and drop. Leave it is used when a dog is about to grab something. It prevents them from grabbing it with their mouth. Drop it is for when the item is already in their mouth and we want them to surrender it. So if she has an item in her mouth you say "drop it' if she's getting close to a food or item you don't want her to have or you are practicing not to have, you would use leave it.

Once again, best to practice with items that are perceived as lower value for now and that are not used for playing fetch. To avoid confusion, it may also help to work on leave it and drops in different sessions. 

Here is the section on leave it:

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/brain-training/obedience-101/take-leave-it/

"Sit and down work pretty well, but she's sometimes very slow to respond. "

At this point, if she's pretty fluent on sits and downs, you can start raising criteria and get a bit picky. So you can try  to just mark/praise the slower sits/downs (no treats) and mark/praise and give treats only for the fastest ones. In other words, reward with treats the higher performances. After several reps, she should soon learn that the fastest sits are those that earn the treats. Just worth mentioning, if you notice a repeated sluggish performance in sitting or doing downs, consult with your vet to ensure there's not something physically going on that may slow her down (achy joints, belly aches etc). 

I hope this helps. Let me know if you have any further questions,

Happy training!