Electric fence

[FrederykBlot]

Hi 

 

I moved it the subject on the new post for clarity, instead of discussing electric fence consequences on the "one member of the couple thread", please let me know if you prefer I do not multiply threads, I put a link on the post though to be sure ppl coming here would get the beginnning of the discussion

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/forum/topic/791-one-member-of-the-couple/?tab=comments#comment-3697

 

That being said little update of this matter, which is the biggest trouble for us now : 

- yesterday night with my gf, i think she tried to go by the infamous road, which were difficult, until he spotted another dog, then he just wanted to play with the dog, and had no trouble getting on the way => can being with buddy friends in this area can help counter conditioning by itself. We have a playdate coming, can we maybe just walk them together through this road to associate is with a nice experience, or he must be fully concentrated on the trigger, and see the trigger, then treat, and repeat ? or just having a nice time in the spot he dread can help ?

- I took another road (actually reversed the side of our usual departure). we ended up in the field of my last picture, but we took the road from the other side to really come from a new environment (we never took this road before, as it goes quite far and he was a bit young earlier). He did go in the field, may have spotted the cow, didn't flee per say, so I wasn't sure I should counter conditioning because I was not sure there was an actual trigger... but at some point he took the road, but on the side opposite to the cow pen... Did I miss something and created a sensitization ? recognizing the threshold levels is not as easy, as the manifestation may differ from time to time. He didn't flee with ears down, but walking fast paced in the side opposite to the side... The good thing is also get to greet a new buddy, which could have help the experience

- this is a known problem in the area : I got to another dog owner on the way, and she told me to be careful about the electric fences, so I told her the story, and she said she had the exact same issue... her pup took a shock also, and does not want to take the way anymore (it's not the same way as Loki) That reassured me quite a bit, my pup is normal :D :D

- for my last counter conditioning work, I have spotted some errors : I may have just treat without timing the actual trigger, as I wasn't sure if he was looking at the cow, the fence, the road... I may just have ended "treating continuously" + advance, which is mentioned that shouldn't be done in the counter conditioning article

- besides, as it was liver paste, it obviously saw the bottle in my hand, he may have been more concentrated on the bottle and on the treat, rather than on the actual trigger... but I tried to time when he looked away in the direction of the field

- the article says to only use a specific high value treats for counter conditioning a specific issue, but I did it with the liver paste, which is the known highest value we have... btw I'm not sure you can be sure of high value before having actually tested it for something else, isnt it ?

Are those bad errors ? or little errors ? what are the risks of backfiring ? Should I take a step back from the beginning and fine tuning or I can correct as it goes ?

 

Kind regards

 

[Adrienne]

- yesterday night with my gf, i think she tried to go by the infamous road, which were difficult, until he spotted another dog, then he just wanted to play with the dog, and had no trouble getting on the way => can being with buddy friends in this area can help counter conditioning by itself. We have a playdate coming, can we maybe just walk them together through this road to associate is with a nice experience, or he must be fully concentrated on the trigger, and see the trigger, then treat, and repeat ? or just having a nice time in the spot he dread can help ?

Yup! I mentioned this in my previous answer in the original thread. Walking him with another confident dog can help as it may  cause him to focus on the dog rather than other things in the area. You would have to see how it goes as you approach the area. If he is super social and loves to play with dogs, and if this dogs walks confidently in this area, he may just walk along and focus on his buddy. With more and more successful walks, his brain may eventually mark the areas again as safe. The other dog can be walked by the side facing the fence so that Loki has a little visual barrier initially. Sometimes, (not always!) all it takes is a good teacher dog showing them there is nothing to fear.

Consider that, if this dog is the same dog who also got shocked, he/she may do just the opposite, communicate Loki that the fence is a danger through some subtle body language. 

If Loki happens to momentarily stall, sometimes having your other friend love up on her dog (lavishly and with emphasis!) may get him walking to get his slice of attention too if Loki loves attention. If he resumes walking, you can praise him and  reward him "jollying him up" as you walk past the area and doing some steps of attention heeling. 

So this is something worthy of trying, but mostly paying very closely attention to how he responds. We don't want to undo the good associations if Loki at some point suddenly realizes where he is, and decides to escape in fear. So how it works out depends on a variety of factors such as how salient the presence of another dog is, how much he is influenced by other dogs, and whether some of the work you have already done with Loki will help further buffer the triggers causing them to go more in the background. 

If things start looking bad, making an emergency u-turn; https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/emergency-u-turn/ can prevent a full-intensity exposure that may cause the fear to make a comeback. 

- I took another road (actually reversed the side of our usual departure). we ended up in the field of my last picture, but we took the road from the other side to really come from a new environment (we never took this road before, as it goes quite far and he was a bit young earlier). He did go in the field, may have spotted the cow, didn't flee per say, so I wasn't sure I should counter conditioning because I was not sure there was an actual trigger... but at some point he took the road, but on the side opposite to the cow pen... Did I miss something and created a sensitization ? recognizing the threshold levels is not as easy, as the manifestation may differ from time to time. He didn't flee with ears down, but walking fast paced in the side opposite to the side... The good thing is also get to greet a new buddy, which could have help the experience

Yes, sometimes if can be a bit of a challenge identifying what may be exactly going on in their mind. It is good he didn't flee, and that his body language wasn't with the ears down, so that's some progress since that's what he did initially. However, just because he didn't flee doesn't mean that he was necessarily fine with the situation. Walking fast paced can be a sign of avoidance, but if he got to play with a good buddy in that area, that could have helped soften things. I would consider where this happened so you can work behind this point next time and prevent more setbacks.  

One thing worthy of mentioning, is that, once you have enough progress that he walks nicely on the road where the shock occurred, you can stop it there and not aim to get him walking right next to it. It is possible that dogs may sense some buzzing from the fence or a slight sensation without actually touching the fence, so we don't want to bring back bad memories by walking too close. 

- this is a known problem in the area : I got to another dog owner on the way, and she told me to be careful about the electric fences, so I told her the story, and she said she had the exact same issue... her pup took a shock also, and does not want to take the way anymore (it's not the same way as Loki) That reassured me quite a bit, my pup is normal 😄 😄

That shock is quite high voltage for those large farm animals so it can be very scary. It's meant to inculcate "single event learning" meaning it leaves such a strong impression that the animal becomes reluctant to ever go past the barrier again.  I know some dogs who get shocked by electric pet fences and are too scared to return to their homes due to the shock (and these shock less than electric fences for livestock).

- for my last counter conditioning work, I have spotted some errors : I may have just treat without timing the actual trigger, as I wasn't sure if he was looking at the cow, the fence, the road... I may just have ended "treating continuously" + advance, which is mentioned that shouldn't be done in the counter conditioning article. 

Hmmm..... I am not sure if I understood what you did correctly. I went back to the counterconditioning article and not sure where it says to avoid  "treating continuously" + advance. What matters the most is the order the food is presented (the dog sees the trigger, food is fed) and that the dog is under threshold so that one doesn't advance too quickly to avoid setbacks. 

- besides, as it was liver paste, it obviously saw the bottle in my hand, he may have been more concentrated on the bottle and on the treat, rather than on the actual trigger... but I tried to time when he looked away in the direction of the field

With the liver paste, you are a bit at a disadvantage because you have to carry the bottle in plain view and this can distract him, but he'll' come to eventually learn that liver paste dispensing only happens contingent upon looking at the triggers and not at other times. 

- the article says to only use a specific high value treats for counter conditioning a specific issue, but I did it with the liver paste, which is the known highest value we have... btw I'm not sure you can be sure of high value before having actually tested it for something else, isnt it ?

Yes, once you recognize something your dog drools buckets of saliva for, you can then start using that for your advantage by providing access to that exclusively for the most pressing issues. 

Are those bad errors ? or little errors ? what are the risks of backfiring ? Should I take a step back from the beginning and fine tuning or I can correct as it goes ?

I wouldn't consider those bad errors, especially being that you are working on this on your own as you are learning more and more about Loki every day. Little bumps can occur here and there as we learn more about what triggers exactly the dog responds to and how he reacts to them. Your pup has showed signs of a generalized fear, so it's not always cut and dried what exactly he fears. What's important is to mentally mark the area or what may have evoked the fear response and take a step back, aiming to prevent it from happening again next time which is often done by increasing distance and/or presenting the trigger in a less threatening manner while still creating positive associations. 

 

[FrederykBlot]

Quote

Yup! I mentioned this in my previous answer in the original thread

I'm sorry I missed that part. Or it's my golden fish memory

This may prove may more efficient that counter counditioning actually : we had a major progress yesterday thanks to that
We went to a walk, and we met with one of the neighborhood dogs who are allowed to play with him fully (not just little greeting, but really untied unrestricted play)
We untied them and let them go wild in the area. They ran crazy like mad men and Loki seemed to had the time of his life. Even he was running behind with his little paws (the other was older and bigger)

At some point, he was panting heavily, not taking water and was just focus on his buddy, and we thought it was time for calling it a day for this time. We tied them again, went separate ways otherwise he would be still be over treshold. On the way back, he crossed the dreaded road as it was nothing scary !!! YAAAAY \o/

Having a good time with a buddy seems to be like the best counter conditioning method ever for him. I'll definitely make other buddies contribute :D

 

 

Also, I tried more desentization that counter conditioning as I felt it way easier for me. I seem to struggle a bit about the "book method" of counter conditioning as it seems important to time the trigger, not get pass the point he would get over threshold (which can be very subtle)...

We just were in the field where there is the cow pen. We came for the opposite side, far away. And I just came closer, stopped, let him come to me, sniffing, having a good time untied, some recalls with treats, then I went a little bit closer and repeat the exact same

At some point, we came to a farmer harvesting cherries, came next to him, did some talking... And I called it a day, not be sure not to had something bad in the experience

 

I find it way easier for me this way, and less energy consuming. Is it efficient though ? I'm not sure he really acknowledge the trigger but to me it's a form of desentization.
For now, the trigger is very far, at some point, it will get closer and closer, and he won't be able to not see it
And if he's able just to live his life close the trigger, then it's won

 

I'm glad today as I feel like there were some good progress. I don't think the end of this tunnel is anywhere near, but we're getting there

 

 

[Adrienne]

This may prove may more efficient that counter counditioning actually : we had a major progress yesterday thanks to that
We went to a walk, and we met with one of the neighborhood dogs who are allowed to play with him fully (not just little greeting, but really untied unrestricted play)
We untied them and let them go wild in the area. They ran crazy like mad men and Loki seemed to had the time of his life. Even he was running behind with his little paws (the other was older and bigger)

At some point, he was panting heavily, not taking water and was just focus on his buddy, and we thought it was time for calling it a day for this time. We tied them again, went separate ways otherwise he would be still be over treshold. On the way back, he crossed the dreaded road as it was nothing scary !!! YAAAAY 

Having a good time with a buddy seems to be like the best counter conditioning method ever for him. I'll definitely make other buddies contribute 😄

Yes, it is often underestimated how powerful the presence of other dogs can be, especially puppies who are easily influenced and take other dogs as examples. Our Rottweiler Einstein we often used him to help fearful puppies who needed a little confidence boost. In this article below, there's a video of Einstein showing a dog scared to jump in the car how to do it with confidence. After a little training on jumping and getting momentum using the coach, this pup learned to jump in the car in just a day. 

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/fear-getting-car/

Also, I tried more desentization that counter conditioning as I felt it way easier for me. I seem to struggle a bit about the "book method" of counter conditioning as it seems important to time the trigger, not get pass the point he would get over threshold (which can be very subtle)...

We just were in the field where there is the cow pen. We came for the opposite side, far away. And I just came closer, stopped, let him come to me, sniffing, having a good time untied, some recalls with treats, then I went a little bit closer and repeat the exact same.

This sounds a bit like the treat-retreat fashion, mentioned in the other post  where you keep the leash loose at a distance from the area,  and when Loki advances a bit ahead you praise and reward that by staying in your place and feeding a treat from there (Loki comes to you to get it). Then you wait for him to advance again,  take one step forward (still staying a bit behind) and praise and reward feeding a treat (your pup still walks back to you to get it). 

At some point, we came to a farmer harvesting cherries, came next to him, did some talking... And I called it a day, not be sure not to had something bad in the experience

I find it way easier for me this way, and less energy consuming. Is it efficient though ? I'm not sure he really acknowledge the trigger but to me it's a form of desentization

In the dog training world there is a saying "Pavlov is always on your shoulder." This refers to Ivan Pavlov, the "father" of classical conditioning. It means that when you are working on reinforcing behaviors (which is operant conditioning), there is always some classical conditioning going on too. Even if it looks like you are just desensitizing by letting him take baby steps, when you praise and reinforce the recalls with treats, you are also creating positive associations with the area, you and other stimuli around you. 

 

[FrederykBlot]

Thank you so much for your input and your precisions

 

Today is also a big step toward, and what I feel like a big win for us

 

I must confess, I backed off a bit on the counter conditioning part, as I felt it to be too much energy, focus, and I thought he transformed the "good time" of the walk into some goal-oriented training, and we both enjoying that a little less than just playing and fooling around together

 

I'm glad the way I tried it actually made some sense, because to me it was really more enjoyable. I just stand around, enjoying the area and the sun, watching him having a good time, and it made me in the pretty joyful state of mind. I'm pretty sure he felt it, and that should have helped him enjoying either, perhaps even helped him being less fearful if he was at any point, instead of me being anxious and eager to counter condition him because there would be a problem if we cannot take the road anymore and blah blah blah <insert any negative thought related to problem solving>

 

So I don't know if it's the "pseudo-training" / desentizing, or his big play session with his buddy lately, but we did soooooo much progress here
On the picture is how close we could get to the dreaded road ! At no point did he seem over threshold, or avoiding
I didn't get the picture, but I even manage to get on the road with him following in the field, and climax was when he went on the road, looked around, and back off, but with no sense of fear or anxiety (he got a jackpot of treat and praises here)

 

Today is another day of celebrating victory !!! \o/ (And I'm glad I can do this kind of post instead of always questions and worriness :))
I'm so glad because we see more and more of those (some important "drop it" and "leave it", some huge recalls, stairs...)
Auto-pat on the back to me and my bud :)

 

[Adrienne]

Glad to hear Loki is doing so much progress! Keep up the great work! Your patience and determination is paying off.  And for sure, a calm, relaxed and happy state of mind can help a pup feel more safe and secure. Just be super careful that he doesn't get too bold and gets too close to the fence again!

But yes, you and Loki deserve this great victory so lots of pats on each others' backs. 

Happy training!

[FrederykBlot]

Célébration day today people !!!

Day of joy !!

 

Mister Loki finally accepted to go through the dreaded feared road.

I must confess I didn't train it specifically lately but several things may have helped :

- we sometimes walk by until he was not ok with going further, then just stayed around enjoying there while being sure he was under threshold and not in a fearful mood

- sometimes we met dogs and people around he could greet and train impulse control with

- he even met his best doggy friend and could even fully play with him unleashed one or two times

- he was walked there with my parents in Law, who didn't know about this fear. But being with them overdid the fear and he walked with them with no issue (I was a bit bothered as with me he wouldn't... But with them it was ok 😭😂)

sometimes it doesn't have to be complicated, but what is sure is what you said : "slow and steady win the race"

[Adrienne]

Kudos to you for working so hard with Loki to help him overcome his fear of the fence. I am glad you are seeing a return in your investment. You both deserve it. 😍