Evening "demon"

FrederykBlot · September 20, 2021

Hello,

I'm glad it has been a long time since I posted for a personal subject, but everything good come with and end :)

Loki is doing usually great. 7 months now, and better recall, better settle during the day...

But lately, he displayed an unpleasant behavior, and I'm not sure where does it come from, and how to address it...

In middle evening, he becomes unbearable, around 8PM, after the evening walk, around when we eat.
One of the thing is since quite some time now, we do not force the nap anymore, he manages better to settle, but since a few days, in the evening it's becoming difficult.

He would jump on the couch, which he stopped doing before. Jump on us... we would anticipate, and ask a sit, then he would look at us in the eyes, and then jump right at us.
Any attempt to pet would result in biting, sometimes stronger than we allowed before... Even made the re-appareance of holes in clothes
He has all the symptoms of over excitement, but weirdly, it's only at this specific hour

It's also more directed towards my gf, and specially when she was at the office and not home. So we may have thought he could be some "over attention seeking", but in the end he also got bitey with me too... She would flee the scene sometimes, and he would just wander around in the house

As it's a bit late related to his sleeping time, we don't want to force a long nap, but given the symptoms, he may be cranky from tireness

Sometimes we would ignore and it would end at some point, but it would takes minutes of him wandering around, with some little whines sometimes...

I'm a bit lost here, because I don't understand the cause, and don't want to have an inadequate reaction

FrederykBlot · September 21, 2021

Little complement I thought about

Loki starting to express dominant behavior towards other dogs, mainly trying to mount
Sometimes he got himself put down, and I'm totally fine with that, hoping it would calm him down, and sometimes not.
Can this evening behavior could be him trying to get dominant to us ?

I also noticed lately during walks, he gets a bit stubborn... if there is another dog in sight, or something that interest him, he would just stay here and sit, until it comes to him.
I try to go, and call him, but he would just stay there... it can takes minutes, to the point I sometimes have to drag him on a few meters before he start to walk on his own again. This new-gained stubborness, could it be teenage phase kicking in hard ? Can it be related to what I exposed on the evening ?

Also, we're just back from holidays. During holidays, about 2 weeks, we spent all days together, doing hiking in the country side in lovely places. We would work some alone time in the evening while we were getting some drinks, but he was so tired, he would sleep during his alone time in the hotel.
Perhaps us being back at home, and working during the days, he wouldn't understand why we're no more available for him during the day, and "make us pay" during the evening

I'm just throwing ideas here, without being sure of anything

It's not that simple to find the correct thing to do here. I mean, if it's attention seeking, I don't want to put him in a crate / pen timeout

If it's really tireness, I don't want to just ignore and let him loose as a devil in the house...

Adrienne Farricelli · September 21, 2021

Loki is doing usually great. 7 months now, and better recall, better settle during the day...

I am glad to hear that he is doing better with his recalls and settling down during the day! That's great news and your dedication and commitment shines through.

But lately, he displayed an unpleasant behavior, and I'm not sure where does it come from, and how to address it... In middle evening, he becomes unbearable, around 8PM, after the evening walk, around when we eat.

It sounds like you're describing the typical "puppy witching hour." In popular folklore, the witching hour, also known as "devil's hour," consists of a time at night when supernatural events are believed to occur the most. The exact time the witching hour took place could have varied greatly based on who you asked.

In modern times, the term witching hour has been transferred to include a variety of circumstances, such as times when the stock market undergoes more volatility or when infants or young children become cranky before their bedtime.

Among puppy owners, the witching hour is therefore used to describe the crazy, hyper behavior observed during the evening hours. Another common term used for this is the "puppy zoomies" or more technically, FRAP (Frenetic Random Activity Period).

One of the thing is since quite some time now, we do not force the nap anymore, he manages better to settle, but since a few days, in the evening it's becoming difficult. He would jump on the couch, which he stopped doing before. Jump on us... we would anticipate, and ask a sit, then he would look at us in the eyes, and then jump right at us. Any attempt to pet would result in biting, sometimes stronger than we allowed before... Even made the re-appareance of holes in clothes
He has all the symptoms of over excitement, but weirdly, it's only at this specific hour.

It's also more directed towards my gf, and specially when she was at the office and not home. So we may have thought he could be some "over attention seeking", but in the end he also got bitey with me too... She would flee the scene sometimes, and he would just wander around in the house

During the zoomies, you'll see crazy behaviors as those cognitive functions are gone. Frenetic activity leads to loss of thresholds, so it's close to impossible getting him in that thinking state to get him to sit. Frenetic activity also leads to loss of inhibitions, so the rules are no longer followed. Getting on the couch, biting you as well, losing bite inhibition are just "side effects" associated with FRAPs. It goes without saying that touching him, asking him cues and expecting him to listen in the midst of these episodes is sort of a loss cause.

As it's a bit late related to his sleeping time, we don't want to force a long nap, but given the symptoms, he may be cranky from tireness Sometimes we would ignore and it would end at some point, but it would takes minutes of him wandering around, with some little whines sometimes...

I'm a bit lost here, because I don't understand the cause, and don't want to have an inadequate reaction.

FRAP activity is very common in puppies and young dogs, and the trigger can be various. He may be cranky, he may be trying to get attention and if it happens after he eats, it may be a result of feeling energized, which can sometimes be exacerbated by certain ingredients in the food (like some high-glycemic index carbs).

It may therefore take some experimenting to see what works best to calm him down.

-You can try after the walk, sitting at the table for your meal while your pup enjoys his meal in a food puzzle so he's kept occupied. This can help if the behavior is attention-seeking.

-You can try to strategically take him out to the yard for some brain games such as a fun training session using your clicker or putting his nose to work in some nosework activities. This can help if the behavior is triggered by overstimulation/ excess energy.

-You can try making a routine of coming back from the walk and keeping him in a quiet, low stimulation area where he normally naps with something to chew and wind down. This can help if the behavior is triggered by crankiness and he needs a nap.

After trying each of these for some time, you can see which approach works best, and based on how he responds, you may gain some clues on what may be triggering the FRAPS.

Adrienne Farricelli · September 21, 2021

Loki starting to express dominant behavior towards other dogs, mainly trying to mount Sometimes he got himself put down, and I'm totally fine with that, hoping it would calm him down, and sometimes not. Can this evening behavior could be him trying to get dominant to us ?

We discussed about dominance a while back, here is the thread about that:

You can delve deeper on this topic by reading several other helpful resources on "dominance" and why it's been debunked:

https://todaysveterinarypractice.com/on-your-best-behavior-moving-beyond-leader-of-the-pack/

https://avsab.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Dominance_Position_Statement_download-10-3-14.pdf

I also noticed lately during walks, he gets a bit stubborn... if there is another dog in sight, or something that interest him, he would just stay here and sit, until it comes to him. I try to go, and call him, but he would just stay there... it can takes minutes, to the point I sometimes have to drag him on a few meters before he start to walk on his own again. This new-gained stubborness, could it be teenage phase kicking in hard ? Can it be related to what I exposed on the evening ?

Yes, the teenager phase is now in full swing, being that he's 7 months. See the "stuck in a duh moment" section and "more independence" section:

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/survive-dogs-adolescent-stage/

However, we must evaluate whether his stopping and sitting may be a calming signal, or a sign that he's not too at ease in encountering another dog.

Also, we're just back from holidays. During holidays, about 2 weeks, we spent all days together, doing hiking in the country side in lovely places. We would work some alone time in the evening while we were getting some drinks, but he was so tired, he would sleep during his alone time in the hotel.
Perhaps us being back at home, and working during the days, he wouldn't understand why we're no more available for him during the day, and "make us pay" during the evening

It has been proven that dogs don't do things out of "spite" or to revenge. According to recent research that classic guilty look we may notice on our dog's face when they misbehave is simply the dog's reaction to our altered body language. Indeed, the study revealed that, dogs who behaved well, but were scolded by their (misinformed) owners, looked more “guilty” than those who had, in fact, really misbehaved.

This means that, as dog owners, we should not take the dog’s guilty look at face value, for what it looks. Rather, we should understand that it's simply a response to our behavior, and therefore it's not necessarily indicative of any proof of misdeeds.

In your case, I feel there may be other motives at play. For instance, now that the weather is cooler, he may have more energy to spare.

FrederykBlot · September 22, 2021

Hello

Thank you for all your insights.

I think I heard something already about the witching hours. I didn't know it was also part of zoomies. For me zoomies was just when they run around franctically during several minutes until they are exhausted :)

For instance, now that the weather is cooler, he may have more energy to spare.

That may definitely come into play, but I'm not totally sure about this one, because the evening walk is the longest one, and we are both doing it, my gf and I.
We even do exercises during the walk, like recalls, hide and seek in the forest... So he would have plenty stimulation, I would rather balance on too much side, than too little

We discussed about dominance a while back

True, but I wasn't thinking about dominance training, but more the fact that he displays behavior while playing with dogs that ressemble him bossing others :) He would try to mount whereas the others don't, and would always want to be on top, stuff like that... IT's like he prefer to be the "bully" than the "bullied". Not sure if that's a thing, but I was thinking, if he's acting bossy around other dogs, why wouldn't he be with us, as part of his character more expressing itself

You can try making a routine of coming back from the walk and keeping him in a quiet, low stimulation area where he normally naps with something to chew and wind down. This can help if the behavior is triggered by crankiness and he needs a nap.

Maybe we should force the nap again. I mean at least contain him, just let him some time to cool down. Is the crate ok to that ? With him being better now, the pen is off as we could start again watching tv shows and movies. (but if needed we could put it back) Even with all this time, I always feel off about containing him. Still afraid he would resent the crate, or the pen, and make it more complicated to contain him when we will really need it. Or afraid that he doesn't need the nap, and would just throw a tantrum while contained.

However, we must evaluate whether his stopping and sitting may be a calming signal, or a sign that he's not too at ease in encountering another dog.

Not at all. He's like the most friendly dog ever. This sitting is more like "look ! I'm having a good behavior, let me go play with him." Then he pull to say like "hey ! I was nice, I was sitting, and you didn't let me go play with him, why so ? I'll get there myself then !"

You can try to strategically take him out to the yard for some brain games such as a fun training session using your clicker or putting his nose to work in some nosework activities. This can help if the behavior is triggered by overstimulation/ excess energy.

He usually already over threshold when in that state. Wouldn't more brain games tire him even more, making it worse ? I thought brain games would stimulates them even more than physical games, and that wouldn't help calming them down

Thanks again for all your explanations

FrederykBlot · September 22, 2021

I would like to tell this part on the separate as it's a thing on its own.

The more it goes, and the more I think it's teenage phase kicking in a bit hard, with him "testing the limits". In walks, his comfort distance increased greatly for example...

But I figured that out in a way I'm not very proud of :

Being back from last evening walk, I went in the yard to get some cut grass, and Loki started to pounce onto me. Then he started to attack my toes (I was in slippers), to the point he hurt me, while we worked on bite inhibition since young. I turned my back, move away, then he jumped on the hand-rattle I was holding and tried to get it. It tried to put it away, and he went for my hand, to the point he hurt me again. I pushed him away gently, turning my back, with a firm "hann hannn" (stop noise), he went again all stronger, with stronger bite, hurting me even more. I flee the yard, and my gf stepped in, as she saw I was getting nowhere and losing patience.

Did all the same with here, starting with the toes, to the point he hurt her also. Then attack the clothes, a shirt she actually likes, almost to the point to make a hole. She tried to cut interactions also, and while she was fleeing, he attacked the toes hard again. I came back to help her, and redirect him. I got down, tried to pet and saying with calming voice to try to get him relax "Loki, calm now"... At that point he tried to get my hand and even higher.

And then I just snapped, it was the "too much" moment. I grabbed him by the scruff, put him down on his back, and said in a firm voice, but without yelling "STOP ! NOW ! ITS OVER !". A few seconds, he didn't whine, my gf went back, I stepped up, Loki too, I went into the house back, and he followed me, and went to lie down after that.

I was feeling so bad about myself, and was thinking "oh my... its over... i've killed our relationship..."

Then I went to cook, he came to the kitchen, offered a sit, I gave him a little piece of cheese... I tried to pet him, he let me... I don't want to justify my action, I don't like it much because it was done out of loss of patience, but weirdly, it may have helped. He was calmer. I was afraid he would be now frightened by me, but not at all, I would still come near me, took treats, and let me pet him. It reminded me a bit of a toddler who pushes, pushes, pushes, got grounded, and settle back

I don't want this kind of episode to happen again because I really felt not good about it (and still do today whereas everything's good) but that made me really think about something like "pushing the limits", and the teenage phase, when I saw the consequences and him being better after being grounded

please don't be too harsch with me, I love him, I would never abuse him, I'm just human

FrederykBlot · September 22, 2021

Its funny. To check how bad I did, I search a bit and found this :

https://dogdiscoveries.com/curiosity/scruff-shaking-dogs-for-discipline

article by you :)

However, I didn't shake. In puppy school, one time Loki was playing too rough with another one, and the instructor grabbed him by the scruff, gently, put him a bit on the side, and let him go... He explained that scruff grabbing isn't a bad thing per say, as they would be carried around like this by the mother, but NEVER EVER shake, as shaking is for killing a prey and shaking would instigate fear, even terror, the one of being killed... I made sure I didn't shake

JMFS · September 22, 2021

I get it. Every once in a while I would grab Esther to keep her from getting into something and all that puppy skin is the only thing I'd latch on to. She has So Much Skin! So so much. Last night she snapped at my daughter and all I could think to do was lean over (Esther and I were on the couch, kiddo was behind it) and cover Esther so she couldn't get my kiddo. Bite me, but do Not mess with my child. Don't care if she's 23, I'm a mama bear. I felt badly about it, but my daughter doesn't have insurance and I don't want her hurt so restraining Esther was where my instinct went. Bite me. I at least have insurance! Kiddo should be more mindful now about her movements. Esther's never done that before, but the hovering, the phone, and the movement scared her and she's a fighter. /sigh

Back to Mr. Loki - just wanted to share that you're not alone. We're going to have mishaps and we're going to do things wrong. That's why we have an Adrienne. :) Now I'm off to bookmark that article! As with you I never shook Mo's scruff, but I grabbed him by it and did the alpha roll (wonder why we had issues, hmmm).

Adrienne Farricelli · September 22, 2021

I think I heard something already about the witching hours. I didn't know it was also part of zoomies. For me zoomies was just when they run around franctically during several minutes until they are exhausted 🙂

Well, yes the whole running around and frenetic behaviors are known as zoomies or FRAP, but humans sometimes like to use colorful terms, and it seems the witching hour is used mostly for pups who engage in these frenetic activities particularly in the evenings, and maybe have also that sort of "crazy look in their eyes!"

I also see what's sort of a"stress release" behavior in some dogs at times. Mostly have seen this with shelter dogs, the behavior looks like a bad case of zoomies, with the worse behaviors all taking place at once. Sort of like a temper tantrum. Interestingly, shortly after this, these dogs were then on their best behaviors, becoming more responsive and calm as if they just rid their bodies from accumulated stress hormones. I have looked whether this phenomenon has a name and couldn't find any literature, but one day I plan to post these observations in some groups run by those often working with recently rescued dogs to see whether there is a trend of this.

That may definitely come into play, but I'm not totally sure about this one, because the evening walk is the longest one, and we are both doing it, my gf and I. We even do exercises during the walk, like recalls, hide and seek in the forest... So he would have plenty stimulation, I would rather balance on too much side, than too little

Something to consider though is that there is a fine line between providing physical exercise to tire the dog out, and increasing the dog's stamina which can have the opposite effect. In other words, the dog comes to crave more and more exercise as he gets more and more fit. Another aggravating factor is the adolescent stage, which as mentioned in the article/link posted above, leads to boundless energy.

I wasn't thinking about dominance training, but more the fact that he displays behavior while playing with dogs that ressemble him bossing others 🙂 He would try to mount whereas the others don't, and would always want to be on top, stuff like that... IT's like he prefer to be the "bully" than the "bullied". Not sure if that's a thing, but I was thinking, if he's acting bossy around other dogs, why wouldn't he be with us, as part of his character more expressing itself

Mounting other pups can be triggered by a variety of emotional/physiological states, excess energy, overstimulation, getting cranky. It can also be a displacement behavior. Being a breed with history of herding, it could be possible he likes to play in a way that "controls" the movement of the other pups, but even if so, dogs know we're not dogs.

Dogs aren't wolves, and we aren't dogs, therefore a dog is not going to act "dominant" or "bossy" towards us with the intent to raise his status in the human pack for the simple fact that he’s not part of the human pack. Part of our families? Absolutely—but not of our "pack."

When we fall into the "dog acting like a bully" or "dog trying to boss us around," mindset, we automatically tend to fall into the trap of wanting to put the dog into his place and that automatically creates an adversarial relationship with us defaulting into implementing pack rules and other correction-based methods originating by the misleading belief that we are dealing with "wolves in dog clothing. "

"There is no evidence that dogs are programmed to dominate their owners" or that owners must act dominant in order to have good dogs," claims board-certified veterinary behaviorist Dr Ilana Reisner.

Maybe we should force the nap again. I mean at least contain him, just let him some time to cool down. Is the crate ok to that ? With him being better now, the pen is off as we could start again watching tv shows and movies. (but if needed we could put it back). Even with all this time, I always feel off about containing him. Still afraid he would resent the crate, or the pen, and make it more complicated to contain him when we will really need it. Or afraid that he doesn't need the nap, and would just throw a tantrum while contained.

This depends on the relationship he has with the crate. Our dogs all eagerly went in the crate because they associated being there with getting goodies they would exclusively get in there. As soon as we would open the door they came running in anticipation because they got super yummy things when closed there. If he hasn't been crated for some time, or doesn't have this strong positive conditioned emotional response to it, then the play pen may work better as long as he looks forward to it. If you haven't used the play pen or crate for some time, there are risks that he has enjoyed too much freedom and may feel frustrated being closed.

Not at all. He's like the most friendly dog ever. This sitting is more like "look ! I'm having a good behavior, let me go play with him." Then he pull to say like "hey ! I was nice, I was sitting, and you didn't let me go play with him, why so ? I'll get there myself then !"

Gotcha! That's a nice behavior you have built there, especially if you can get him to stay nicely sitting. I imagine he's looking at the dog and then at you in trepidation for being released. Maintaining the sit as the dog walks by is not easy to train, and I can see how he may get impatient at some point. The more it's practiced the better. If dogs are seen sporadically, that makes them too salient and the event too exciting. It helps a lot to do daily walks in areas with lots of dogs around such as the perimeter of dog parks and practice calm-er behaviors taking baby steps.

He usually already over threshold when in that state. Wouldn't more brain games tire him even more, making it worse ? I thought brain games would stimulates them even more than physical games, and that wouldn't help calming them down

I have listed trying several different approaches to see what works best considering that the hyper behaviors described may stem from a variety of underlying causes. Cookie-cutter approaches are set to fail when we assume there's only one reason and don't test what works best. This was one approach in the case that, with the long walks he has built physical stamina, and therefore has some extra energy to spare or maybe he may benefit from some "winding down" activities to set the tone for a more relaxed evening.

Adrienne Farricelli · September 24, 2021

And then I just snapped, it was the "too much" moment. I grabbed him by the scruff, put him down on his back, and said in a firm voice, but without yelling "STOP ! NOW ! ITS OVER !". A few seconds, he didn't whine, my gf went back, I stepped up, Loki too, I went into the house back, and he followed me, and went to lie down after that.

I was feeling so bad about myself, and was thinking "oh my... its over... i've killed our relationship..."

Then I went to cook, he came to the kitchen, offered a sit, I gave him a little piece of cheese... I tried to pet him, he let me... I don't want to justify my action, I don't like it much because it was done out of loss of patience, but weirdly, it may have helped.

He was calmer. I was afraid he would be now frightened by me, but not at all, I would still come near me, took treats, and let me pet him. It reminded me a bit of a toddler who pushes, pushes, pushes, got grounded, and settle back

I don't want this kind of episode to happen again because I really felt not good about it (and still do today whereas everything's good) but that made me really think about something like "pushing the limits", and the teenage phase, when I saw the consequences and him being better after being grounded

please don't be too harsch with me, I love him, I would never abuse him, I'm just human

I am not here to judge or be harsh firstly because I know how well loved Loki is and secondly because I think as humans, we can have a breaking point, especially when a loved one or another dog we care for is at risk.

The good news is that (in general) dogs are rather resilient and bounce back. That is, if it happens just once, they'll come to think we just had 'that one episode" an odd, exceptional behavior that was out of character for us. Sort of how we may surprise them when we accidently step on their tail or trip on them, and then they understand it's all good, no harm was meant.

If we keep at it though, that's when we do the most damage. We come to prove to the dog over and over that we are unstable, untrustworthy and unpredictable when dogs need to feel deeply secure with us. Physical corrections, snatching things from their mouth and even yelling can have negative repercussions. As a result dogs may become suppressed, anxious and even defensive (fear/stress/uneasiness is the main cause of aggression).

Signs of a dog acting suppressed/anxious/defensive include walking tentatively (like on eggshells) towards the owner (in what mood is my owner today? I better walk slow=appeasement signal), keeping the ears back, tail low (dog making himself as small as possible to appease), defensive behavior when in possession of something, hyperactive behaviors (the fool around response in stress, one of the 4F responses to fear), the cliché' of typical dog who appears well behaved when instead is in a state of suppression/ learned helplessness, lack of initiative (the dog is no longer an active learner as is afraid of trying new behaviors), displacement behaviors (yawning, scrolling of the fur) and several more.

Our dogs can sense when we are calm, and our calmness reassures them. If we tend to be on the reactive, excitable or frustrated side, it's important for us to at least try our best to act calm in the presence of our dogs. Moving quickly, talking in frustrating tones, breathing fast, petting them quickly ruffling up the fur, fleeing from the scene, risks making them hyper, reactive or unsteady.

Catching our dogs when calm indoors or outdoors and praising calm behaviors with a calm, soft tone of voice,(possibly dropping a non-too exiting treat at his feet) and preferably without making eye contact, can help capture the calm behaviors so that they repeat. Excited/hyper behaviors shouldn't get our attention-any form of that means none of the positive or negative type. Even in play with other dogs, our dogs benefit from taking breaks if their play gets too hyper.

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Before we give any form of attention it's therefore important that we evaluate in what state of mind our dog is. It's amazing how many calm behaviors our dogs display during the day and they often go unnoticed, but as soon as the dog misbehaves, he gets all eyes on him. It's therefore not surprising why then we get a higher percentage of the latter.

On top of capturing and rewarding calmness, controlling the circumstances (antecedent control, management) so that the dog wants to do what we want him to do is what ultimately sets them for success. In other words, we can pave the path to good behaviors by avoiding rehearsals and trying to preempt behaviors and giving something more acceptable to do praising and rewarding that so to compete with and supersede the innate reinforcement gained from acting out in ways we do not like. On top of this, getting to the root of the problem is paramount (not enough sleep, too many stress hormones, not enough outlets for instinctive behaviors, too much social pressure, etc).

Therefore as difficult as it may be, it's important to take several deep breaths at critical times and become proactive rather than reactive and do some goal setting to prevent these situations from occurring in the first place and then implementing an intervention plan that is both easy for us and our dogs to adhere to (baby steps with possibly a way to track down whether the behavior is improving over the course of several days). Setbacks can always happen through the process, but these should gradually become more more far in between and and if occurring more than expected, a careful evaluation of what may trigger it and a little tweak back on the drawing board can help soon set things back on the right path.

Finally, as tempting as it is to think that dogs misbehave just for the pleasure of upsetting us, it's important to remind ourselves that it's nothing to be taken personal and that they simply do so because they are in a phase of their lives and most likely it is fun, relieves pent up energy or stress, or simply grabs our attention.

JMFS · September 24, 2021

All of mine just got a dog version of vanilla orea cookies for being nice and quiet. <3 Adrienne, modifying human behavior one post at a time!

FrederykBlot · September 24, 2021

Thank you for the good explanation. I have to admit the teenage phase is getting at us hard.

We may have been a bit confident due to Loki's progress in general, and that made this phase more harder.

We were so proud that it has been a long time since he "attacked" us, and all of a sudden, he's going madly on our toes and hands...

Lately, all bedtime moment went smoothly, and all of a sudden, he started to bark as a mad man when put in the crate to sleep...

The contrast between how good he has become and how the teenage phase throw away good things surely made our reactions not ideal because it was unexpected

I guess we also need some adaptation on our side.

For the witching hours, I have prepared a set of special treat : he's not much into frozen Kong, however I prepare a mix of cottage cheese + wet food+ duck grease and I stuff that in hooves, and I freeze them... It's like the ultimate ice cream... We try that and it helped sooth him down.

We also forbid the yard more. It appeared that being authorized in the yard whenever he wants keeps him in stimulated state because he sees all the time people passing by, or others dogs... We figured out that he would nap in the house if he has no access to the yard, hence avoid being over tired / over stimulated... And he seems less hyper in the end of the day because he spent time really napping during the day.

About the yard also, we have a "barking problem"... He would bark madly at anyone passing by... It's weird because he's so friendly with everyone... But I may have heard that the breed is prone to barking... We ordered a higher fence, with full sight blocking, hoping it will limit the visual stimulation, hence the barking

We do all of that to try avoiding the "snapping point", because I want to keep that a one time mistake, and I definitely dont want him to walk on eggshells near me. And as you Say, prevention is better then correction

But I guess every mistake is an opportunity to learn 😂

Adrienne Farricelli · September 25, 2021

It's great you have found a special treat that seems to help sooth him down. Are you providing it when crated? If he hasn't been crated for long, I find it quite normal for him to bark in protest, but this can cause more crate-aversion as it should be re-introduced gradually if you plan on using that. A play pen or indoor tether (this latter always under supervision) may be a more suitable compromise for now.

Yes, unrestricted access to the yard can do that, and if he's barking madly at anyone passing by that will surely keep him in an overstimulated/aroused state. That's why I am always out with dogs when they spend time in the yard, left to their own devices, as soon as boredom sets in (or stimuli keep coming and going), they'll start finding their own forms of entertainment. And barking at everything is a very common one as it's highly self-reinforcing.

With dogs who are super friendly with everyone, the barking behind a fence can be a matter of frustration.

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/barrier-frustration/

Although it can also just be he's just taking his watchdog duties more seriously.

The look at that exercises https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/brain-training/university/look-at-that/ done first through windows, then out in the yard with a long line can help with this form of barking, but if he's left out on his own to bark, any type of guidance is likely to lose its effectiveness due to the fact that barking at triggers, once again, is highly self-reinforcing.

Yes, the adolescent stage is certainly a wake-up call for many. Moments of regression aren't unusual at all.

Being aware of the associated behavior changes though gives you the benefit of knowing what to expect, rather than being caught totally unprepared. Forewarned is forearmed, goes the saying. The positive thing is that embracing challenges can help make us better owners and trainers because they get us into that proactive thinking mode to find ways to tackle the issues as they arise.

JMFS · September 25, 2021

A lighthearted look at what dogs are thinking when barking:

Supernatural: Dean Acting Like a Dog

I started it at the part where he starts acting out his interpretation of a dog so folks don't have to listen to the supernatural things and the little dirty language. :) The GSD they have in this is So handsome. This scene always goes through my mind when the girls start barking at whatever through the window.

FrederykBlot · September 25, 2021

He actually were never crated if not for sleeping. The crate is always open and he goes to nap in sometimes when I work in the office.

For day containement he was in the pen and we train that. He would always complain a little once the chew is over but settle fast. we discussed that if I remember and put it to fomo.

The barking in the crate was a one time thing, but last night so I don't know if it repeat.

However, today in the car, he vomited, while he was fine with it during our holidays. I found an awful amount of foam from one of the toy he destructed. I didn't he had Time to swallow so much before I took it away. I wonder if that could cause a bad feeling, which caused the crate barking..

Actually, we're trying more and more alone time in the house without containement. We set the camera in an angle we can see most, and that goes well so far. He's no more destructive of the furnitures, and he often end up going to sleep downstairs (it's more fresh).

We train "look at that" but sometimes he's so hyped he doesn't respond to the cues, not even touching the treat. In the morning it's better, less energy thus more eager to comply.

Other problem I think we reinforce : because when he starts to bark much, we come and call him back in the house, spécially at night... Or for the training : as we cant wait all day that someone comes, we get the treat after hé start barking, come, and treat when he stops... But seeing us when the barking occurs may be counter productive. It's hard to get the timing right on this one.

As you say, it's a bit like playing"cop and thief" : we see something to work on, we adapt, we work, it works after some time... Then something new and we repeat the same process 😂😂

Thanks again for all the insights

Adrienne Farricelli · September 28, 2021

it's bit like playing"cop and thief" : we see something to work on, we adapt, we work, it works after some time... Then something new and we repeat the same process 😂

Yes, however, when something was working, and then it no longer works, it's a sign that some tweaking is needed. For example, if he's not listening to "look at that' cues, it's important to evaluate what's going on exactly. Is the stimulus too intense? Too close? Are the treats used too low value compared to the stimulus? Are we catching him when he's already in a aroused state? We need to make our smacking sound *before* he gets to the point of staring intently and then barking. Important is to familiarize with the pre-barking body language. Often, the dog will orient towards something (twitching the ears, turning the head), close the mouth, stare intently and then bark although some just go straight to barking, in which case we need to catch them before they reach that state. Recording our dogs barking and then playing it back slowly with the mute on before the first bark is emitted can help us identify some subtle body language we may have missed otherwise.

Is he allowed to bark outside on his own? If he's outside barking on his own with little or no guidance from us, that day we decide to start changing things, you'll likely to get some form of resistance. Sort of like "I have been barking on my own at things in the yard for some time, what is it that now you want me to respond to you? I have enjoyed taking the matter in my own hands." Well, they might not think exactly this way, but you get the idea.... Same if we allow it intermittently, like some time we do "look at that exercises" and other times we allow unrestricted barking at things. So it's important to manage as much as possible and redirect at the first signs of possible reacting.

The barking in the crate was a one time thing, but last night so I don't know if it repeat.

However, today in the car, he vomited, while he was fine with it during our holidays. I found an awful amount of foam from one of the toy he destructed. I didn't he had Time to swallow so much before I took it away. I wonder if that could cause a bad feeling, which caused the crate barking..

It could be that vomiting in the travel crate has caused some regression. If the same crate is used for travel and indoors, I would make sure it's cleaned with an enzyme-based cleaner in case of residual smells. If I recall, once Loki also had a regression in being crate when he once had a poop accident. In any case, it is possible that a negative experience like that can generalize to the other crate if a different one is used. That, or not using the crate for sometime can be a factor.

Actually, we're trying more and more alone time in the house without containement. We set the camera in an angle we can see most, and that goes well so far. He's no more destructive of the furnitures, and he often end up going to sleep downstairs (it's more fresh).

That's awesome! It's nice once they learn to not be destructive and we can trust the more around the house. The camera is super helpful to keep an eye on him just in case and also for getting him used to spend time alone.

Other problem I think we reinforce : because when he starts to bark much, we come and call him back in the house, spécially at night... Or for the training : as we cant wait all day that someone comes, we get the treat after hé start barking, come, and treat when he stops... But seeing us when the barking occurs may be counter productive. It's hard to get the timing right on this one.

If I recall well, you have neighbors, so you must do what you can to stop the barking. To prevent a behavior chain, when you call him it helps to add some extra behaviors, like you call him, ask for sit, maybe a hand target (of paw once he masters that) and then you feed several treats in a row to leave a strong impression. Of course, preventing him from barking in the first place is the ideal approach, so when outdoors, maybe be out with him and keep him on a long line? It's difficult to keep barking under control if the dog is allowed to rehearse the barking too much.

FrederykBlot · September 28, 2021

Thank you for all the insights

little update

Yes, however, when something was working, and then it no longer works, it's a sign that some tweaking is needed. For example, if he's not listening to "look at that' cues, it's important to evaluate what's going on exactly. Is the stimulus too intense? Too close? Are the treats used too low value compared to the stimulus? Are we catching him when he's already in a aroused state?

I think it may be a bit of all. Intensity of stimuli depends on what it is... A wanderer = little stimuli. Another dog = big stimuli. Another friend dog = "OMG !! PLEASE LET ME OUT RIGHT NOW !!" state :). And therefore the value of treats will depend on that. Dry food or paste works (ish) for the 2 first, I'm not sure anything would work for the last one

Is he allowed to bark outside on his own? If he's outside barking on his own with little or no guidance from us, that day we decide to start changing things, you'll likely to get some form of resistance. Sort of like "I have been barking on my own at things in the yard for some time, what is it that now you want me to respond to you? I have enjoyed taking the matter in my own hands." Well, they might not think exactly this way, but you get the idea.... Same if we allow it intermittently, like some time we do "look at that exercises" and other times we allow unrestricted barking at things. So it's important to manage as much as possible and redirect at the first signs of possible reacting.

There was definitely some of that. When younger, and the barking was less, he'd been authorized the yard, and the barking, as it wasn't much. With him growing, the hard barking could not be tolerated anymore, as he also have bigger voice :). So yes, he has more rights before, and I guess no one likes to have some rights taken away :)

I sense a bit of improvement though. However, he was onboarded this weekend as I had a baseball tournament and my gf have a girls weekend, and when back, he didn't bark as much, even a bit lower, and responded more to the treats... But I don't want to shout victory too soon, as he may be due to a bit a tireness from being onboarded.

A little part of me want to think it's the payoff to the effort :) I'm pretty sure the "you bark too much and too loud = no more yard" seems to have some kind of impacts (I know, it's postive punishment and not positive reinforcement but at least it's not aversive :))

It could be that vomiting in the travel crate has caused some regression. If the same crate is used for travel and indoors, I would make sure it's cleaned with an enzyme-based cleaner in case of residual smells. If I recall, once Loki also had a regression in being crate when he once had a poop accident. In any case, it is possible that a negative experience like that can generalize to the other crate if a different one is used. That, or not using the crate for sometime can be a factor.

sorry for the misunderstanding, as the message was including several days. The barking in crate at night was before the vomiting in car. Besides, it's not the same crate. The night / indoor crate is integrated in furnitures. So I'm pretty sure those 2 events were unrelated

I will definitely go with the one time thing with the upset stomach. He vomited the day I went to the pension. When getting him back yesterday, no vomiting in the car. Little whining in big turns, but nothing unsual here. Also the night in crate went smoothly. Still, it may be just the tireness of the pension, but yesterday night, he was allowed in the yard because he behaved and did no barking, he started to fall asleep in the grass when usually he chases insects... I called "bedtime", even an hour earlier than usual, he just went gently, and slept the all night without trouble.

I would go for the one time thing on this one, and no regression.

That's awesome! It's nice once they learn to not be destructive and we can trust the more around the house. The camera is super helpful to keep an eye on him just in case and also for getting him used to spend time alone.

Yes, we were really happy on this one. It worked the first time, short duration though. But now we feel more confident to run errands, and perhaps have a little drink outside with him not contained. Baby steps. Little thing we notice : no problem if we go out when he's in a calm state. But if he's a bit excited when we go, although we proof the biggest part of the area he can access, downstairs (where he likes to lie down because it's fresher) has also the shoe rack... and one of the time he was not so glad, he went for the shoes, this little rascal :) We should proof this area also, and I'm pretty sure in no time, alone time when free won't be too much of a bother

Perhaps we should also include a nice edible chew when we go to make the association "seeing us going is good, you gain a nice chew, and you're not even contained"

So here it is... teenage phase makes us work, but we adapt, and we see things evolve in a good way with little bumps on the road (and with growing, our little boy is getting more and more beautiful :))

Adrienne Farricelli · September 30, 2021

I think it may be a bit of all. Intensity of stimuli depends on what it is... A wanderer = little stimuli. Another dog = big stimuli. Another friend dog = "OMG !! PLEASE LET ME OUT RIGHT NOW !!" state :). And therefore the value of treats will depend on that. Dry food or paste works (ish) for the 2 first, I'm not sure anything would work for the last one.

OK that stimulus gradient gives you the knowledge and level of control on what you need to work more on. I don't know if this would be feasible, but if you have any neighbors or friends who own a friend dog and are willing to volunteer walking back and forth until you can get some level of responsiveness, that would be a great exercise to widen the chances for opportunities to reinforce more desirable behaviors.

Distance can help you find that "sweet spot" where he is more responsive. A use of a leash can help you maintain that.

Also the repetition of the exercise, with the dog owner walking the dog back and forth, may help make the stimulus become less salient from "oh, my friend! oh my! wow! yay! yippee" to a more composed "ok, there's my doggy friend again!" If this is repeated several times, you may start getting more and more of these more composed responses. You can then start raising criteria and getting more selective by reinforcing the calmer responses.

If the above is not feasible, it may be just easier trying to track whether this friend dog is walked at a certain time and avoiding such high-intensity exposures.

The underlying goal though should still remain: trying to find a way to keep him more under threshold. This may not be easy if one lives in an area where dogs aren't encountered too often and they therefore become super salient.

Jean Donaldson calls this "suburban dog syndrome" Basically, they lack that constant flow of dogs and people that turns them into normal stimuli. Both my Rotties were raised in the country and they were developing this "whoo-hooo" response when spotting a person or dogs.

A substantial change was achieved when we started traveling with them and visiting crowded places and cities. People and other dogs soon became rather "ho-hum". This had to be maintained, too long between exposures would lead to the "woo hoo" response returning. Humans may be experiencing something like that too with the whole pandemic. For the extroverts it may be "woo-hoo!" for the introverts it may be more like a stressful "eek!, I am no longer used to socializing!"

Another contributing factor to high arousal levels is dogs who are allowed to greet other dogs on walks when they are super excited and whining, pulling, acting crazy. Then if they are behind a fence, or there is a dog we don't want them to meet it will lead to frustration barking/barrier frustration.

It helps to do walks with other dogs, but with the dog not actively interacting/playing. Just calm walking. A nice, adult calm dog can help with that. This may take time to master (with pups it may take some time to master this level of impulse control, but it is attainable with practice).

There was definitely some of that. When younger, and the barking was less, he'd been authorized the yard, and the barking, as it wasn't much. With him growing, the hard barking could not be tolerated anymore, as he also have bigger voice :). So yes, he has more rights before, and I guess no one likes to have some rights taken away :)

Yes, changes can cause hurdles especially at first. We can help smoothen the transition if we create positive associations with the change. For example, if a dog was allowed to pull in the past, emphasizing how reinforcing it is to stick to heel position can help with that.

I sense a bit of improvement though. However, he was onboarded this weekend as I had a baseball tournament and my gf have a girls weekend, and when back, he didn't bark as much, even a bit lower, and responded more to the treats... But I don't want to shout victory too soon, as he may be due to a bit a tiredness from being onboarded.

A little part of me want to think it's the payoff to the effort :) I'm pretty sure the "you bark too much and too loud = no more yard" seems to have some kind of impacts (I know, it's positive punishment and not positive reinforcement but at least it's not aversive :))

Time will tell. If it's a result of the boarding, it would be interesting knowing if they offered some activities that helped calm down. Some places organize play dates, and this can exhaust dogs, however, the stress of being boarded (I think most dogs feel this stress to some level, if it's not a routine thing) can make a dog tired too.

Nerdy fact: Removal as a result of an undesirable behavior with the goal of decreasing a behavior falls under negative punishment.

Positive punishment is the + addition (positive) of something aversive to make an undesirable behavior less likely. Negative punishment is the -removal (negative) of something pleasant to make an undesirable behavior less likely.

In behavior terms, the words positive and negative are not used to denote good or bad. Positive simply means addition and negative simply means subtraction. Also, in behavior terms, the word punishment is meant to denote a behavior that decreases in frequency, whereas reinforcement denotes a behavior that increases in frequency.

Perhaps we should also include a nice edible chew when we go to make the association "seeing us going is good, you gain a nice chew, and you're not even contained"

Yes, that can help a lot if it helps him stay calmer and he is getting better with being left alone. If he's way too overwhelmed when you are away, it can become a predictor of you leaving and can lose its effectiveness, so it's important to go gradual.

I am sure Loki is blooming is a handsome pup! Send my pats to him!

FrederykBlot · September 30, 2021

thanks again for all the insights

It helps to do walks with other dogs, but with the dog not actively interacting/playing. Just calm walking.

We were glad lately because we are able to do that. Before, when walking with his buddies, he would always go on the "play" side, pulling always in the direction of his friends. Lately, we allow them to play a bit, then walk a bit, and if they behave, they're freed to play again. And since a few walks, Loki is ok with just walking around his friends. He would go to them, but in a less excited state than "LETS PLAY NOW !!!". But more like "hey ! what did you found here, seems cool..."

Time will tell. If it's a result of the boarding, it would be interesting knowing if they offered some activities that helped calm down.

Was definitely the boarding. I put him to bed at 9PM, he woke up at 8:30AM, and the evening, everything was back to normal, with him having the witching hours :)

I don't know if he's much stressed from the boarding, because he loves the tennants. He always make them a big party when he sees them, so I'm pretty sure he feels well there. He also get to play with other dogs... But sure, maybe our prolonged absence can cause some. But we try once a month to make "boarding a normal thing" and minimize the amount of stress it's causing.

Nerdy fact: Removal as a result of an undesirable behavior with the goal of decreasing a behavior falls under negative punishment.

My bad, actually I was thinking negative pushnishment because we remove something to make him stop something, but didn't know the full reason of those calling. Thank you for the explanation

latest news :

We changed strategy for the witching hour moment : starting with the return of the evening walk, the yard is totally forbidden. We return between 7:30PM and 8PM, he's usually tired because it's the longuest walk of the day with both my gf and I, usually at the same time than some of his buddies... So we don't want to add anymore the excitation of being in the yard with checking of everything that pass by. It would be the worst, as he's already excited from the big walk. He would whine in front of the door, but we do not indulge.

It would be the time we cook and eat. so he gets his last meal, and the special treat in the hoof. It usually last half an hour or so, enough time for us to eat while watching an episode. When he finishes, best case scenario, he has cool down, and he chills with us. And worst case scenario, he's still a little hyped (we would try to get on the coach to us, or bite us to come outside), and in that case, we tried something : he got a form of timeout by being kicked from our video room while we stayed in. We enjoy the end of our episode, while he put alone in the living room. We still check with the camera. He would whine a little in front of the door, and even scratch at it a bit, but after a few minutes, we've seen with the cam he would lie down in front of the yard door, or downstairs. In that case, we finish our stuff, get out, and praise

Not too bad so far : we avoid big barking in the evening... we have a chance to watch our shows with him around... and in misbehaving cases, we "punish by timeout", but at the same time make him used being alone in the house free

Please let me know if there is something bad in this implementation

It depends what method you use for the timeout to get him out of the room. If it's a collar grab, there is risk that with time, he may not like to be touched by the collar, or that he may "play hard to catch." In other words, he may learn "every time I am touched by the collar, it leads to be me being moved away.

However, little question on the side : can absence cause excitation after the return ? I mentioned my gf was on a girls weekend ('about 5 days), and since she returned 2 days, he cannot chill with her around. Yesterday evening, he was timed out because he was non stop onto her after his chew : bitey, tried humping. She was supposed to put him to bed yesterday, but if it was her, it wouldn't chill... she has to disappear, and let me handle the end of the evening. Today, she's working in the office, and he biting the chair, which he never did with me while she was gone
Can this be related to her absence, or there is something else ?

We already talked about the difference of treatment from him between me and her, but here it seems like some regressions, but only towards her..
May this be some kind of fear she will disappear again ? or something like "you've been too long ! take care of me now !"

I hope it's just that ! I'm the one having a guys weekend in 2 weeks 🙂 I will be worried if she'd had to go all the day with a little demon 🙂

For sure, not seeing her for some time, increases hear saliency. Something that can be tried is doing "side-by-side training" in other words, she stays next to you, you ask Loki to do something and reward, and then it's her turn, mimicking what you did. She can also experiment using your tone in case her tone is too overstimulating. Doing several reps of this, back and forth, can sometimes help generalize the behaviors to her. It would be important starting at times when Loki is in calmer mood and not actively greeting her or at a time of zoomies.

It can also help having her practice cues behind a baby gate, so Loki doesn't have the chance to latch on to her in any way.

Of course, all this requires some gradual "fading" like the baby gate will need to be faded, where she will then start asking the same with the baby gate open, then farther from the baby gate and then you will move away farther from her in the former exercises.

Recording her behavior may also help. Sometimes we do things that rev dogs up. My sister has the problem that dogs seem to be extra nippy around her and jumpy. I recorded her behavior around the dogs and showed her how every time she was around dogs, she would often keep lifting her hands up in fear of being nipped and this encouraged them to jump and nip, even when they weren't initially in nipping mode and were just sniffing her hands.

FrederykBlot · October 5, 2021

It depends what method you use for the timeout to get him out of the room. If it's a collar grab, there is risk that with time, he may not like to be touched by the collar, or that he may "play hard to catch." In other words, he may learn "every time I am touched by the collar, it leads to be me being moved away.

Not at all. We tried to avoid any negative gesture involving our hands, except if it's a matter of necessity / security. I do collar / harness grab for example when he's playing around with friend dogs but we approach a street for example.

For leaving room we have the "Ouste !" cue. It's French for "Get out !". We got this one, because he sometimes followed us in forbidden rooms we opened because we had to, like toilets, or laundry room... So in the evening, if he's wild while we're in the video room, we call "Ouste !", close the door, let him cool down and watching by the camera, and open back after a few moments we see him calmed down

Thanks for you advice for my GF. We'll surely try the mimicking thing.
I'm not sure however her behavior is much more different than mine. We overall have the same "knowledge" as we studied together and we agree on all about Loki's education
But she's definitely absent more often as she's going to her office at least twice a week, that's why for me the "absence" was the real difference between us

Adrienne Farricelli · October 7, 2021

Not at all. We tried to avoid any negative gesture involving our hands, except if it's a matter of necessity / security. For leaving room we have the "Ouste !" cue. It's French for "Get out !". We got this one, because he sometimes followed us in forbidden rooms we opened because we had to, like toilets, or laundry room... So in the evening, if he's wild while we're in the video room, we call "Ouste !", close the door, let him cool down and watching by the camera, and open back after a few moments we see him calmed down.

A verbal cue is preferable to a hand's on approach such as a collar grab. A hand's off approach indeed prevents several problems such as dogs becoming hard to catch or reacting to having their collar touched. Another option is having a leash tab (short leash) attached to the collar to take the dog out of the area contingent upon the undesirable area, but there can still be issues with that.

Now, more about timeouts. The main purpose of the timeout is to provide the puppy with a consequence for behaving inappropriately in hopes that the inappropriate behavior decreases overtime. To ensure it is working, one should measure and keep track of the behavior over time.

Timeouts offer several advantages. For instance, by intervening quickly, it prevents the puppy from rehearsing problematic behaviors for too long. On top of this, timeouts are less aversive compared to other methods based on intimidation or positive punishment.

In order to be effective though, timeouts need to meet several important criteria such as appropriateness, correct timing, duration and repetition.

Criteria 1: Ensuring "Time-in" Zones are Reinforcing

Because timeouts work by removing puppies from situations they find reinforcing contingent upon the presentation of the the undesirable behavior, it is important ensuring that the "time-in location" and situation is truly perceived as pleasant. If not, the behavior risks being negatively reinforced rather than negatively punished.

It is a known fact that puppies crave being with their families, especially when they are young. Loki belonging to a family oriented breed has demonstrated several times in the past a strong need to be in the same room with you and your girlfriend (his family).

With these factors in mind, we know that most likely, temporarily removing the puppy from being around the family will have quite an impact. Timeouts, in this circumstance, even if for a very brief period, can therefore be effective in reducing certain undesirable behaviors as the loss of social contact may have quite an impact.

However, let's imagine for a moment that a puppy perceives being around his family unpleasant (not your case of course!). Maybe they have been yelling at the puppy or the puppy is shy and cowers. If in this circumstance one were to correct jumping/biting by putting the pup in a distant room, the puppy would feel relief upon leaving the time-in zone and accessing the timeout zone. The jumping in this circumstance may therefore increase over time (through negative reinforcement) rather than decrease (through negative punishment)! Interestingly, sometimes jumping is not out of attention, but presents as a distance increasing behavior. Such jumping is often displayed when a dog is uncomfortable with a person and wants this person to give him space.

Criteria 2: Ensuring Timeout Zones are Non-Rewarding

The choice of the timeout zone can further emphasize the transition from an area filled with reinforcement, to a dull area with no social interaction. A back yard which is teeming with smells, things to chase and places to dig may be perceived as reinforcing to a puppy, whereas a bathroom (with the toilet roll out of reach and the toilet seat down) is boring.

An indoor tether away from family activity may also work well as a timeout area as long as the dog is ignored. This though warrants some level of supervision for safety issues (dog may get tangled in leash).

When in this zone, puppies should be naturally inclined to act calmer because there is little to no stimulation. This setting therefore prompts desirable behaviors which are reinforced with release from isolation and once again access to the time-in zone.

Should You Use the Crate or Play Pen For Puppy Timeouts? The answer is no. You want the crate or play pen to be great places to be. You want your puppy to feel happy and secure in these places. Using these areas for timeouts can easily undo all the hard work in getting a puppy to love the crate or pen.

Criteria 3: Correct Timing

Dogs learn best when they associate one event and another in short order. If you put a dog in a timeout several minutes after the undesirable behavior has occurred, there are high chances the connection between the behavior and consequence won't be made.

It therefore goes without saying, that in order to be effective, the timeout must be given in a timely manner. According to Ramirez 1999, in order for a dog to associate a specific action with a consequence, that consequence must occur within half a second.

The use of a bridging word that marks the undesirable behavior (such as "timeout" or "too bad!") along with holding the leash tab and escorting the pup to the timeout area can help create that functional relationship (association) between the undesirable behavior and consequence.

Criteria 3: Ideal Duration

The duration of the timeout is also important in order for it to "sink in." A too brief timeout may not "register" as one may hope. Nobbe and colleagues (1980) recommend a 3-minute timeout as a consequence for aggressive behavior, however, for puppies and minor infractions 1- or 2-minute timeouts may suffix, although even 30 seconds can be effective in some cases.

Excessively long timeouts ranging 5 to 10 minutes or more are unnecessary and should be avoided, explains Steven Lindsay in the book: "Handbook of Applied Dog Behavior and Training." Should the puppy bark or whine, it's important to remove from the timeout zone only after being quiet for at least 10 to 15 seconds and possibly asking for a sit before being released to prevent behavior chains.

Criteria 4: Repetition

Several timeouts may be needed to have an impact and cause the puppy to associate the undesirable behavior and consequence to the point of the puppy learning "every time I do this behavior, I am removed and put in that boring place. "Undesirable behaviors that are exceptionally ingrained and persistent may require several timeouts delivered on a continuous basis (every time it presents) and once the behavior decreases, the timeout can be delivered on an intermittent schedule. However, it's important to consider that the ultimate goal should be setting your puppy for success so to make good choices.

Criteria 5; Setting Your Puppy For Success

Following the timeout, it's important to take steps to reduce the undesirable behavior from re-presenting. Many times, dog owners get stuck in a never ending cycle of putting a puppy out on timeouts repeatedly. It's therefore important to tackle the root cause for the behavior and helping the puppy succeed by preempting future occurrences. For example, the puppy can be taught to engage in an appropriate substitute behavior which is lavishly praised and reinforced in hopes that it repeats and strengthens, making the puppy pick engaging in this behavior over the undesirable one.

So are timeouts effective for puppies? The answer is yes, negative punishment can work when applied correctly. However, there are side effects to be aware of. With time, puppies may play hard to catch, they may no longer respond to a verbal cue because it has been poisoned (the dog associates it with a negative consequence), puppies still get to partially rehearse an undesirable behavior and they may fail to learn to engage in amore desirable behavior.

On top of this, timeouts are listed more towards the bottom of the least intrusive, minimally aversive methods meaning there may be more preferable practices to try before those, but of course, every behavior issue and every case is different.

What can be used as alternatives to timeouts?

-Antecedent control (management) can be used if the puppy tends to predictably engage in an undesirable behavior at a certain time or in face of a certain trigger. For instance, the puppy can be strategically provided with an activity to preempt the undesirable behavior. For example, if the puppy gets nippy at a certain time of the day, he can be provided with brain games that keep his mouth busy like getting food out of a puzzle toy.

-For a puppy who engages in jumping or nipping to garner attention, the puppy could be taught to engage in alternative, appropriate behaviors that receive attention and positive reinforcement.

-At the same time, it would be important ensuring the puppy receives enough exercise, play, socialization, training and mental stimulation. Nap times are also important considering how puppies tend to misbehave when they are tired.

-An alternate to timeouts are 'chill-outs." In other words, more than using timeouts as punishment, they are used to promote calmness, by taking the puppy to a separate quiet area to learn how to self-soothe with chew toys or puzzle toys.

FrederykBlot · October 9, 2021

Thank you for all the détails and explanation about the timeout

However, I'm not sure if it was a précision to confirm we did well or to correct from what we did

From what I see it's not that bad

- it's not in crate or play pen, as those places are supposed to be only "positive" place

- the timeout usually happen only when redirection didn't work. During the witching hours, which is After the big evening walk, he gets a chew/lick to calm down / chill out. Then if he's still excited much and doing biting and humping After his Big chew, he may get the timeout

- from our expérience, WE are a source of stimulation, and remove him from us helps him to settle... Like with the yard : when he had full access to the yard, he would try to nap, but end up reacting to many things outside... Since the yard is only authorized at certains times, he sleeps more and better during the day

- for us, what I called timeouts is more the "chill outs" thats you described, except it happens when he starts to get crancky

- usually, after those chill out/ timeout, he sleeps deeply after a few minutes. Thats really makes us think that the previous behavior was more an overexcitment/ overtireness from the evening session (obedience+Big walk+mental games...)

And also some time, he's not timeouts.

It happened after the evening walk he was tired and ended up just sleeping around... And nothing to do here

I really Think we're not that bad

Please let me know if I'm mistaken

Thanks again for all the insights

Adrienne Farricelli · October 9, 2021

Oh no, you are not bad at all! I just wanted to point out the pros and cons and what things can go wrong with timeouts and what alternative approaches can be tried first.

It sounds like indeed you are doing pretty much 'chill outs" where you are providing him a quiet place to chill if your presence overstimulates him. Most likely FOMO is once again at play (or maybe he's hyper vigilant to your movements and eagerness to follow he struggles to fall asleep) so if he falls asleep when taken to another area, you are basically teaching him how to self-soothe and chill enough to finally fall asleep.

Hopefully, with time though, he'll start learning this skill on his own and learn to relax and fall asleep despite being nearby. Some dogs need to feel exhausted mentally and physically first to reach this point. An indoor tether that keeps him in the same room as you (along with something to chew as needed), but prevents him from directly interacting with you, may also help with this.

Evening "demon"

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