Evening "demon"

[FrederykBlot]

Thank you, I never saw it with this point of view.

 

Expelling him from the video room / our presence, to me it was a form of punishment, I never saw it like a way to teach "please go calm down somewhere else", like we taught him to sleep into the crate

 

Besides, after a little while, when we get out of the room, (around 15-20 min I'd say, when we finish eating or finish the épisode), he would hear us going out the room, coming back to us much calmer, and we would pet and praise, trying to reinforce that coming back to us when calmer is prone to reward. We try not to reward with food on that case because food has a tendency to put him in a "working" state of mind to get treats.

 

About the need of feeling exhausted, I'm pretty sure he is, because it happens mostly at diner time, after the long evening walk where he usually meet and play with doggy friends. And we perceive the exact same "symptoms" of overtireness that made us need to enforce naps in pen last couple of months.

 

Thanks again for the relevant insights

[Adrienne Farricelli]

Well, I am thinking about this with the breed's working history in mind...

Imagine these dogs in the olden days when they hunted and guarded nomadic tents. Then, later on, when they herded reindeer. They had to work all day, in extreme temperatures, often walking/running though in deep snow at a quick pace. They also had to constantly scan their environment avoiding danger and having super quick reflexes to avoid potentially life-threatening attacks from non-collaborative reindeer. Bouncing around and running all day long required a certain level of stamina. 

This all required a great level of alertness and rarely letting the guard down. So it can be that in some Lappies these traits pop up with more intensity than others and may cause them to be always alert of what is going on around them. This hypervigilance and strong desire to "work" of course interferes with relaxation. They want to always know where their owners are and what they are doing or about to do so to be an active participant. I know of some dogs who the moment you touch the arm rest of the sofa you're siting on are already up and ready to follow. "Destination no-where exercises" can help with this as discussed under the desensitization of owner movements explained here:

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/following-owners-around-house/

So it can be that he really needs a really quiet setting to relax, and he may only be able to if he sees you sleep, sort of like what the Lappies did in the old days where after a long day of steady work they would sleep with the Sami people. Laughing when watching a movie, getting up to grab a drink, making comments, reacting to the movie with remarks, can prevent him from getting into a relaxed sleep and gain the restorative sleep he needs. 

Taking a dog out of the family room whether to give a timeout or to allow the dog to chill will always have some element of "punishment" especially in a dog breed who loves to be  around the family. Sure, it's for his own good to get free of any source of overstimulation if we are the source of it, but he doesn't know that initially although it may feel good afterwards to finally let the guard down to relax.  

Using an indoor tether always under supervision with a comfy mat nearby can provide the best of both worlds, with the dog still being in the same room as family but without being able to get in the face and engage in undesirable behaviors. Providing something to do can help keep the pup busy in a quiet way so that he initially doesn't bark out of frustration. With not much "active interaction" going on he may grow increasingly calm and learn to fall asleep in face of you being awake. 

It certainly can help a step-by-step gradual approach with initially little talk (or talking a soothing voice) when watching TV, having all drinks/foods in the room so that nobody gets up to grab stuff from the kitchen, using the restroom before the movie so to avoid bathroom trips, dimming the lights and trying to watch movies that aren't too overstimulating. Then, gradually more distractions can be added as he learns to sleep through the lighter distractions. I often tip-toe when having to get up to prevent too much stimulation. 

Capturing calmness exercises, shaping relaxation, mat work, reinforcement for desirable behaviors, impulse control and frustration tolerance exercises and calming aids and of course enough exercise, training and mental stimulation throughout the day may help provide an integrated approach. 

[FrederykBlot]

This is very interesting, I didn't know about those details of the history of the breed

 

We try when he's in with us to set the volume not that loud to help him settle with us, and also try to get the maximum at the table to avoid making rufus if he tries to sleep with us. Sometimes he may stay in, but often he goes downstairs by himself.
This depends during the evening program : there is a thin line between "I'm exhausted enough to settle on my own, either with my people or downstairs" and "I'm so over tired that I cannot settle and I will misbehave until you put me out of the room"

For example, yesterday night was perfect : we made a big walk, he was clearly tired when back. He got his dinner while I was cooking, while we eat, he got his frozen chew, when finished, he tried to attention seek us, which we ignored, and he ended up going downstairs by himself to sleep / start his night. After the movie, we called "night time Loki", he went in, no whining, and everyone went to bed.

 

 

But sometimes I feel bad to expel him from us. I think it's punishing him of having affection towards us :) :)
That's why having the point of view of "help him learn to settle peacefully alone" help with this

 

[JMFS]

I have to do the same with Esther, Fredery.  Sometimes we just need a break!  We're not around our spouses, co-workers, or children 24 / 7 - we're simply not wired for constant company, even extroverts need some alone time now and then.  In fact, I believe naps were invented to give parents a moment of peace away from their children, lol.  Think of it this way, each time he spends time alone with y'all there it's preparing him in a healthy way to spend time alone when you need to leave the house.  :)

Congratulations on having a smooth evening!

[FrederykBlot]

Thanks for the words, I like the "goal of nap creation" :)

 

However the line is thin indeed

 

Yesterday, exact same routine : but after his chew, he started being crazy in the room, so he was expelled. He didn't like it, and start barking for almost 10 min straight, until he finally settled. We call good night around 9:30PM, no problem here. Around 11PM he started barking like crazy in the crate. after 10 min, I got up, thinking it was a need, let him in the yard a few minutes, where he barked again... So put him back inside in emergency, call "good night" in the crate again, and he made a barking tantrum during a good 10 min again before finally settling for the night

 

Exact same routine, opposite behavior... this is the most difficult to tackle, in the sense that we didn't do anything different, so we wouldn't know on what we should adjust

 

only thing that appeared different, is that the evening session was "harder" : we had a long walk, and he spent most of the time playing with a doggie friend, he arrived exhausted at home. We did go with the usual routine, giving him food while cooking, giving his chew while we dine, letting him settle after... He may have needed the nap before the chew as the session was more tiring... But apart from that, I don't know at all could be done

 

 

[Adrienne Farricelli]

For example, yesterday night was perfect : we made a big walk, he was clearly tired when back. He got his dinner while I was cooking, while we eat, he got his frozen chew, when finished, he tried to attention seek us, which we ignored, and he ended up going downstairs by himself to sleep / start his night. After the movie, we called "night time Loki", he went in, no whining, and everyone went to bed.

 

Yesterday, exact same routine : but after his chew, he started being crazy in the room, so he was expelled. He didn't like it, and start barking for almost 10 min straight, until he finally settled. We call good night around 9:30PM, no problem here. Around 11PM he started barking like crazy in the crate. after 10 min, I got up, thinking it was a need, let him in the yard a few minutes, where he barked again... So put him back inside in emergency, call "good night" in the crate again, and he made a barking tantrum during a good 10 min again before finally settling for the night

Exact same routine, opposite behavior... this is the most difficult to tackle, in the sense that we didn't do anything different, so we wouldn't know on what we should adjust

Only thing that appeared different, is that the evening session was "harder" : we had a long walk, and he spent most of the time playing with a doggie friend, he arrived exhausted at home. We did go with the usual routine, giving him food while cooking, giving his chew while we dine, letting him settle after... He may have needed the nap before the chew as the session was more tiring... But apart from that, I don't know at all could be done.

Yes, keeping an eagle eye on the "antecedents" (everything occurring prior to the behavior) is important so to detect what seems to make a difference between a smooth evening and the rough ones.  I would keep track of several evenings and see if you can identify a pattern. With yesterday being the exact same routine, only that he played with a doggy friend, it could be a matter of him being too overstimulated/exhausted and struggling with settling. 

What was he barking at when out in the yard? Did it look like there could have been some critter or other disturbance outside? I wonder if he could have detected something from indoors when he started barking around 11PM.

[FrederykBlot]

What was he barking at when out in the yard? Did it look like there could have been some critter or other disturbance outside? I wonder if he could have detected something from indoors when he started barking around 11PM.

It's not impossible, as he went like an arrow in the direction of the fence as soon as I opened the door. With all the door closed (room + outside + living in between...) I didn't think about that...

 

But the barking starts also to be more and more "problematic"... he tends to express more and more his unhappiness with it
I know the breed is prone to barking, so to me it's more "just the way it is" rather than "a big problem that need to be targeted and solved"
But during the day when I have calls and meeting, I close the office door. What was before a little scratching and whining become more and more barking and howling.
The problem is the same (he does not like the fact that I close the door on him), but his way to express it starts to change
To me it's a bit related to the teenage phase, and the will to assert himself... Is it relevant ? but I may be totally wrong

We still train "look at that" for the barking, when in the yard... but it also increased despite the fence.

 

However we have to do it though, as our works will take resolutions soon about coming again to the office, so we start more and more to put him alone during the day, usually one hour, here and there. Maybe he sleeps more during the day, and that's why he was less likely to settle... 

Assessing "too tired" versus "not enough stimulation" is not always easy :)

[Adrienne Farricelli]

But the barking starts also to be more and more "problematic"... he tends to express more and more his unhappiness with it. I know the breed is prone to barking, so to me it's more "just the way it is" rather than "a big problem that need to be targeted and solved" But during the day when I have calls and meeting, I close the office door. What was before a little scratching and whining become more and more barking and howling. The problem is the same (he does not like the fact that I close the door on him), but his way to express it starts to change. To me it's a bit related to the teenage phase, and the will to assert himself... Is it relevant ? but I may be totally wrong

Hmmm.... is he allowed in the office sometimes yes and sometimes no? Or has the office always been off limits to him? 

Are you responding in any way to his barking? I mean in terms of both negative or positive attention. 

Is anybody at home with him when you are working in the office?

Does he have access to things to do when you are in there?

How long are you doing the calls and meeting in general?

Does the barking start the moment you close the door or random times? Midway? 

 

 

[FrederykBlot]

Hmmm.... is he allowed in the office sometimes yes and sometimes no? Or has the office always been off limits to him? 

Yes he sometimes get to nap inside with me when I'm working. The door closing happens when he's too excited and starts chewing of everything like chairs / furnitures and I cannot make control on him

Are you responding in any way to his barking? I mean in terms of both negative or positive attention. 

In the specific case of the "office barking", no, because I'm usually busy on work. In other case of barking, sadly yes. When in the yard, we have to try to make him stop because of the neighbors, and when inside, and he's doing it strong, with the echoing, it's really unpleasant, so we also try to cue a stop command, and treat when he stops. I'm wondering if we're not creating a behavior chain

Is anybody at home with him when you are working in the office?

usually not

Does he have access to things to do when you are in there?

Yes he has some long chew in free access (hooves, horns...) and solid enough toys, but he rarely plays alone. When put in alone time, he'd rather just sleep

How long are you doing the calls and meeting in general?

He's rarely on alone time more than one hour

Does the barking start the moment you close the door or random times? Midway?

Beginning. He would settle and go sleep somewhere else after I ignore for a few minutes

 

 

 

About the evening routine, yesterday we had another smooth evening. But it doesn't count as it was kind of a "special day". We had guests, so he didn't sleep at all during the day, as we did puppy school, came back to do house cleaning, then our guests arrived. He was a bit the center of attention and had plenty of stimulation from everyone, and at some point during the diner, he just went to sleep by himself as he was exhausted from the big day and we were ignoring the begging.

[Adrienne Farricelli]

Thanks for the extra details, they are very helpful!

Yes he sometimes get to nap inside with me when I'm working. The door closing happens when he's too excited and starts chewing of everything like chairs / furnitures and I cannot make control on him.

OK, generally it becomes a bit challenging for dogs when there are some inconsistencies. Of course, it's not easy to be always 100 percent consistent, but if we let dogs in the office some days yes, and some days no, the no days will likely be met with some resistance. While we may use the criteria, "if you are calm" you can come inside, if you're hyper you cannot," dogs may struggle making the exact association with the behavior. It may take some time for the concept to sink in and to be successful as discussed timeouts need to meet several precise criteria. 

In the specific case of the "office barking", no, because I'm usually busy on work. In other case of barking, sadly yes. When in the yard, we have to try to make him stop because of the neighbors, and when inside, and he's doing it strong, with the echoing, it's really unpleasant, so we also try to cue a stop command, and treat when he stops. I'm wondering if we're not creating a behavior chain

With the yard issue and indoor barking, behavior chains can be prevented to a good extent. This can be done by inserting a delay between the barking and delivery of treats so to "break" the chain, another method is to add more elements to the chain before providing reinforcement is delivered (like asking for sit, target and a down before releasing the treat). 

A training tool you may find of interest is 'Pet Tutor" which is a remote feeder. The benefit of using remote feeders is that you remove a potential source of reinforcement for the barking behavior (in other words you remove yourself from the equation along with your potential for inadvertently delivering any forms of attention/engagement).

The best part is that these remote feeders can deliver treats at an interval to prevent behavior chains. In other words, the treat is delivered only after the dog has been quiet for some time (like after 20 seconds of silence). 

Of course, eliminating possible sources for barking will help too (checking the yard before being let out, keeping on leash when going out at night so to avoid rushing towards perimeters,  training to go potty on cue to rush up the process https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/archive/potty-on-command/, asking for alternate behaviors) although we can only do so much as barking is how dogs communicate things. 

Yes he has some long chew in free access (hooves, horns...) and solid enough toys, but he rarely plays alone. When put in alone time, he'd rather just sleep.

 Beginning. He would settle and go sleep somewhere else after I ignore for a few minutes

I am thinking more along the terms of safe toys filled with goodies, so that he has something to look forward to and to preempt that initial barking so after he's done, he may settle and go to sleep. 

About the evening routine, yesterday we had another smooth evening. But it doesn't count as it was kind of a "special day". We had guests, so he didn't sleep at all during the day, as we did puppy school, came back to do house cleaning, then our guests arrived. He was a bit the center of attention and had plenty of stimulation from everyone, and at some point during the diner, he just went to sleep by himself as he was exhausted from the big day and we were ignoring the begging.

That's nice! It sounds like he got to do a lot and was satisfied. Maybe more "special days" like that would help him if that's feasible. The more smooth evenings you can get, the better. 

Edited October 18, 2021 by Adrienne Farricelli

[FrederykBlot]

Thank you for all the details

 

We sure try to avoid inconsistency because we read so many times that dogs need strong rules, and won't understand what is waited from us if we keep changing the rules
But as you say, being 100% is just too hard with "real life issues". We try to do it only by necessity. In case of the office, it's the need to have calm for an important call, or client meetings

 

That being said, I sometimes don't understand my dog... After speaking about his barking issues, today, he was like an angel : we spent almost the all afternoon in the yard (it was sunny) as he didn't do any crazy barking. Just a little here and there, when someone passed by, but in a totally acceptable degree.

I cannot assert if it's the payoff of the training, or just because today he's tired... he's actually sleeping quite much outside while 2 days ago, it was totally out of question...

 

Smooth evening also yesterday... with the normal routine...  I don't know if it's really the case or not, but we have the impression that his daily frozen hooves may actually "wake him up". We noticed that sometimes, after the evening session, while I cook, he would settle, just go lie down somewhere. When we give the chew before eating, after he has finished, he's quite "awake" and that were the times when he was expelled from the room. During the weekend, he got his frozen chew after the playing session, but before the evening walk, while we were just enjoying a drink at the end of the day. Then we did the walk, he just got ignored while we were eating, and ended up going to sleep downstairs... I'm not sure, it was just this weekend we noticed that, so it may be nothing but perhaps it's a better routine

 

 

 

Something I have forgotten also, an important lesson... it's the value of treats... I didn't understand that what was valuable enough was not sufficient enough for a dog in teenage phase who wants more independance. during walks lately, it would refuse to advance when having another dog in sight : he would just wait until he'll be allowed to interact with them... I ended up pulling the leash quite a lot. But one time, I took the "quick edible chew" : for us, it's not an education treat, but more a calming chew, but those are soooooo high value. For example, it's dry liver, and lungs... all the stuff that are sooooo smelly... Using that I managed to have his attention on me (to be honest it was more on the chew :)) but still I managed to make a few steps of kneeling walk which was impossible with normal education treats

 

so my big discovery of the day, with the teenage phase, there is a big need of increasing the value of treats and rewards to be able to get some reactions and some attention again :) I think we're gonna cook quite some chicken in the coming days :)

 

 

[Adrienne Farricelli]

That being said, I sometimes don't understand my dog... After speaking about his barking issues, today, he was like an angel : we spent almost the all afternoon in the yard (it was sunny) as he didn't do any crazy barking. Just a little here and there, when someone passed by, but in a totally acceptable degree.

I cannot assert if it's the payoff of the training, or just because today he's tired... he's actually sleeping quite much outside while 2 days ago, it was totally out of question...

It's probably the result of both, your training and him being tired. Don't think that your training goes wasted. Although during the adolescent stage, it may seem at times as if they are rebelling and not listening too well, a good portion of our efforts seep through and therefore it's not unusual at all what you describe. You may therefore have moments of regression followed by days where all seems to go well. All this waxes and wanes throughout the adolescent stage. Keep up your training, capture the desired behaviors when they surprise you and pop up at times, and break down whatever he's finding challenging/struggling with, into smaller steps until you obtain the desired response. 

 I don't know if it's really the case or not, but we have the impression that his daily frozen hooves may actually "wake him up". We noticed that sometimes, after the evening session, while I cook, he would settle, just go lie down somewhere. When we give the chew before eating, after he has finished, he's quite "awake" and that were the times when he was expelled from the room. 

 In general, chews and stuff to lick can help with dogs who are barking/nipping/humping etc and misbehaving as it gives them something else to do and helps transition them into a calmer state. It could be that in his case, he is so in need of a nap that he doesn't need the chews and just needs to needs to be placed in a quiet area to doze off.  If that's the case, keep doing what you are doing.

Something I have forgotten also, an important lesson... it's the value of treats... I didn't understand that what was valuable enough was not sufficient enough for a dog in teenage phase who wants more independance. during walks lately, it would refuse to advance when having another dog in sight : he would just wait until he'll be allowed to interact with them... I ended up pulling the leash quite a lot. But one time, I took the "quick edible chew" : for us, it's not an education treat, but more a calming chew, but those are soooooo high value. For example, it's dry liver, and lungs... all the stuff that are sooooo smelly... Using that I managed to have his attention on me (to be honest it was more on the chew :)) but still I managed to make a few steps of kneeling walk which was impossible with normal education treats.

Higher value treats can make a lot of difference. With the adolescent stage and more interest to sniff stuff around and more distractions, treats that are higher value (and stink to high heavens!) can make a difference. I always say "so-so treats lead to so-so- results, amazing treats leave to amazing results". So yes, it's important to gauge a dog's responses (I aim for fast, enthusiastic responses with the "gimme more" look), and adjust accordingly also based on the level of distractions going on. 

so my big discovery of the day, with the teenage phase, there is a big need of increasing the value of treats and rewards to be able to get some reactions and some attention again 🙂 I think we're gonna cook quite some chicken in the coming days 🙂

Life never gets dull or boring around a dog! There are always new things we learn/discover from our dogs and I am glad that you are so in tune with Loki and so observant of all his behaviors. The adolescent stage is sure a challenge, but we can sail through it with consistency, patience and determination. I am sure Loki will love the cooked chicken!