Long leash vs off leash

[FrederykBlot]

Hello everyone,

hope you all doing ok. I haven't been around much lately, which in a sense is good news, meaning Loki has not have any trouble, and also mainly because of work and other projects that kept me busy...

until now... Unfortenately, we had kinda "big accident" with him last weekend

We were on a big walk, and came to a river spot, and there were 2 other ppl with dogs. We came across and asked if we could let Loki free. We always do, to ensure other dogs are ok with a newcomer, that they're not aggressive... and as Loki starting a bit mounting on other, we're ok if he can be "educated" by other dogs, of course in a non harmful way.

Everything was going fine, they actually played well together, and each time Loki tried the mounting thing, he was growled at, quit it, and went on with the play in the river...

Then came the trouble, in the form a another owner, with 3 big sized dogs on the leash... and while his recall is way better when he's alone, seeing new dogs to play with is like the best thing in the world, and he didn't wait for us to put him on leash, nor came back to us. He rushed into them in a playful way, and they reacted in a vigourous way, and the owner (a young girl, 20s) had no control over them when so excited, and ended up falling on her knees... After a few minutes of chase, we managed to catch him, put on the leash, and came to the poor girl, who actually had her knees a bit scorched...

We have been vigourously scolded, and I felt really bad, because she is totally right, but this is something we always care for. We always ask other owner before letting him free... When we see a dog he's always on leash... Here he was just playing free with other in and environment we thought safe, without thinking they could be so close so fast (there are trees around, it's not like a field with full view)

 

So to us it was a clear warning that off leash is off the table now, even if we think the environment is safe, until he have a 100% reliable recall, even in difficult environment with difficult stimulation. We bought a new long leash, that we can add to his existing one, giving him about 20 to 30 meters of freedom

However we have some questions about this decision : 

- do they feel the difference between a long enough leash, and no leash at all ? I guess so, because of the dragging of the leash... but do that change the behavior ? would they be more responsive on long leash because they would know they're no totally free ?

- can they have "negative / bad feelings" by being always on leash when going on walks, even a long one given them virtually the same level of freedom

- should we keep some off leash moment in more secure environment ? because training off leash is not the same as training with leash

- is it too harsh to never allow off leash walks ? could he suffer from it ?

 

Thanks for the help

Have a nice day

 

[Adrienne Farricelli]

Hi there, welcome back!

Sorry to hear about the mishap,

I am not too fond of having dogs off leash unless they have proved themselves through time that they have a stellar recall.

See my thoughts on this here:

It's an unfortunate circumstance yours though since you normally ask and there are not many people in the area and this person popped up with not one but 3 dogs, and had to fall on top of that!

To answer your questions:

do they feel the difference between a long enough leash, and no leash at all ? I guess so, because of the dragging of the leash... but do that change the behavior ? would they be more responsive on long leash because they would know they're no totally free ?

Until dogs can talk we can just make some assumptions. For sure, they feel it dragging and the pressure it exerts when they reach the end, but there may be good chances they temporary forget about it when they're having fun, sniffing or are focused on something. 

- can they have "negative / bad feelings" by being always on leash when going on walks, even a long one given them virtually the same level of freedom.

If you are using a long line, the only negative feeling that comes to mind is perhaps some frustration if they can't reach what they would like to reach. It may be more difficult for dogs who have always been off leash to be suddenly on a short leash, but in those cases, we can take some steps to make things more positive for them like praising rewarding them often, letting them sniff, playing games and treasure hunts. 

- should we keep some off leash moment in more secure environment ? because training off leash is not the same as training with leash

Yes, if you can find places where you keep Loki off leash that are safely fenced, that's a great opportunity to practice recalls. 

- is it too harsh to never allow off leash walks ? could he suffer from it ?

A dog may suffer temporary if they always were off leash and suddenly we have them on a short leash, but we can make it extra rewarding and most dogs adjust after some time. There are many dogs who are always leashed such as dogs living in the city.  If you provide them with opportunities to sniff, and organize training, play and brain games at home, they should do fine. 

 

[FrederykBlot]

Thank you for the good advice (as usual :))

We do not plan to go with short leash, except for cities or specific leash walking training as we normally do

I'm ok with a bit of frustration if there is this little thing he cant reach because it's a tiny bit further than the xx meters of freedom he would have

 

My concern was more about long lasting frustration because of the change of state, or the change it may imply

We just don't want his nature / temper / character to be affected

 

because from what we see, it can last a looooong time ! Loki is so excited when seeing other dogs that every training goes to trash

He has way better recalls, and way better "sit and stay" now, but put a doggy friend, and nothing else matters

So I think it is something that will still take a lot of time

[Adrienne Farricelli]

If you will be using a long line on walks (make sure it's attached to a harness) that provides a nice compromise so to allow a little more freedom, but without risking him getting into unexpected trouble (although a shorter leash is safer as you can more readily control your dog).

Are you therefore asking whether Loki may suffer from not being allowed to play off leash with other dogs since you're planning on keeping him on the long line from now on?

Do you have access to any fenced areas you can take him to play with his buddies?

Training a super reliable recall to the point of stopping him in his tracks despite seeing other dogs takes lots of practice. I have personally seen the biggest improvements by leash walking around lots of dogs such as  by the perimeters of dog parks or in cities, doggy sport events or taking dogs to group obedience classes. It's more difficult for dogs who live in rural areas where they have a strong response to seeing other dogs. Dog trainer Jean Donaldson calls it "suburban dog syndrome."

When your dog doesn't pull anymore on leash to meet other dogs, even if they are close, you know you have better control and more chances for him to come when called., versus a dog who pulls and loses it from all the excitement. Yet, that's just a step ahead. You'll need lots of exposure to different types of dogs and the ability to ignore them no matter what they do (bark, jump, run).

Many dog trainers say that it can take up to a good 3 years for a solid recall response to the point of recalling in face of distractions such as cats, squirrels and dogs. I think this makes sense if the training starts from puppyhood since this coincides with the age dogs reach social maturity which is when they are more mature and get a little more aloof towards other dogs. 

[FrederykBlot]

 

Are you therefore asking whether Loki may suffer from not being allowed to play off leash with other dogs since you're planning on keeping him on the long line from now on?

Not only for playing specifically, but also walking in general.
I still will let him free at some point, but in areas I really have full sight. If I see coming from far enough, I can get him to come to me and tie him.
That will also means, it would be less longer.
I'm not sure about playing in those areas... We never have trouble in those cases, but I'm pretty sure we were just lucky, because sometimes he went very far and very long with the buddy with whom he was playing.

Do you have access to any fenced areas you can take him to play with his buddies?

He's friend with some of the dogs of the neighborhood, so sometimes we have them play in one another garden. But this isn't everyday, nor even every week, it's just one  time here and there

We still go to dog school once a week though, where he can see and be around lots of dogs. He showed improvement there, but is still eager to go to them. 
Thing is, they are not always allowed to play off leash, for security reasons. As there are differences of sizes and tempers, the instructor is more on the safe side (which is a good thing) and allow it only if he's sure there won't be any slipping (for example, two of them are like worst enemies, and cannot do any exercise implying the owner drop the leash without going to each others throats)

 I have personally seen the biggest improvements by leash walking around lots of dogs such as  by the perimeters of dog parks or in cities, doggy sport events or taking dogs to group obedience classes. It's more difficult for dogs who live in rural areas where they have a strong response to seeing other dogs. Dog trainer Jean Donaldson calls it "suburban dog syndrome."

It's weird... because there are so many dogs, and dogs passing in our neighborhood, that I would expect him to be used to other dogs presence. We see less dogs when going to the city, than when we walk around the house.

When your dog doesn't pull anymore on leash to meet other dogs, even if they are close, you know you have better control and more chances for him to come when called., versus a dog who pulls and loses it from all the excitement.

I hear you. This make total sense. Is there any specific way to train that ? We usually try to do a "sit and stay" with some "look at me" with high reward treats. We also try crossing each but he's often lunging, which is more difficult to control than "sit and stay"

Many dog trainers say that it can take up to a good 3 years for a solid recall response to the point of recalling in face of distractions such as cats, squirrels and dogs. I think this makes sense if the training starts from puppyhood since this coincides with the age dogs reach social maturity which is when they are more mature and get a little more aloof towards other dogs. 

wooow ! I expected it to be long but not this long ! 🙂 Da*n those "trainers" with videos like "Get a perfect recall in minutes !!"

 

on a related subject, we were considering neuteuring him. Not because of this specific incident, but with him showing signs of dominance, and always trying to mount when playing, our instructor mentioned it can be hormones driven sometimes. Like, hormones are working, it gets him all excited, and gets him over threshold, and having those kind of rough play... So for now, we're still waiting how it goes, given he's full teenager mode. If it pass we will let him like this, if not we might actually doing it.

What do you think about it ?

 

[Adrienne Farricelli]

Not only for playing specifically, but also walking in general.
I still will let him free at some point, but in areas I really have full sight. If I see coming from far enough, I can get him to come to me and tie him.
That will also means, it would be less longer.
I'm not sure about playing in those areas... We never have trouble in those cases, but I'm pretty sure we were just lucky, because sometimes he went very far and very long with the buddy with whom he was playing.

So if he was for the most free and now you have him on a long line, but want him to enjoy the freedom as close as possible as if he was off leash, you can try to be the least intrusive by walking at a faster pace and letting him stay ahead where there's no tension on the line. I find that once you find that perfect pace that is synchronized so that the line is not tense you have found a nice compromise. 

Of course, do some sessions on a regular leash every now and then, for maintenance purposes and to remind him of training walks versus leisurely walks. 

We still go to dog school once a week though, where he can see and be around lots of dogs. He showed improvement there, but is still eager to go to them. 
Thing is, they are not always allowed to play off leash, for security reasons. As there are differences of sizes and tempers, the instructor is more on the safe side (which is a good thing) and allow it only if he's sure there won't be any slipping (for example, two of them are like worst enemies, and cannot do any exercise implying the owner drop the leash without going to each others throats).

That's a good environment to introduce some impulse control training and exercises such as walking nicely on a loose leash to the play area, doing attention heeling around other dogs and attending to your cues.  One of my favorite exercises when training service is dogs is having several dogs sitting lined up with spaces in between them and taking turns having the dog walk through them in a zig-zag fashion, like we do with the serpentine, only that there are dogs in place of the cones:

https://www.braintraining4dogs.com/members/brain-training/graduation/serpentines-and-spirals/

It's weird... because there are so many dogs, and dogs passing in our neighborhood, that I would expect him to be used to other dogs presence. We see less dogs when going to the city, than when we walk around the house.

I hear you. This make total sense. Is there any specific way to train that ? We usually try to do a "sit and stay" with some "look at me" with high reward treats. We also try crossing each but he's often lunging, which is more difficult to control than "sit and stay"

When I mean in the city, I look for a sort of constant flow of people and dogs sort of like in some farmer's markets or like in New York City where there are dog walkers going back and forth. The problem is when there are dogs sort of every now and then which creates more contrast between no dog and then a dog. With the constant flow, the dog's senses sort of "tire" and the extra excitement wanes. What I am looking for is some structured exposures, where other dogs ignore other dogs and just keep going their ways without the pressure of meeting. 

You will need to practice in structured settings, working on distance first where he is better under control. Learn his "bubble." In many dogs the "gotto go meet or say hi!" and its associated excitement (whining, pulling) is often prompted when they get to a certain closeness and at this closeness they are way too over threshold for us to get them into a responsive state. So start with the distance he's more comfortable with and under threshold. 

I have found that sit and stays are more difficult for excited dogs to attend to and do better with some more "dynamic" exercises such as attention heeling with the treat at eye level and the dog looking up at us and then rewarding with the treats tossed to the ground for the dog to chase. 

wooow ! I expected it to be long but not this long ! 🙂 Da*n those "trainers" with videos like "Get a perfect recall in minutes !!"

They'll do anything to get views! Same with "potty train your dog in a week!" no, not gonna happen-unless the breeders already got them started and did most of the work. Well, now that I think of it, maybe yes, you can train an almost perfect recall in a short time----that is, if you keep practicing in a zero stimulus hallway where nothing is going on and you have super tasty treats!

Of course, the 3 years is general, for those who are very dedicated, doing everything right, the ideal settings and with biddable dog breeds, they can obtain stellar results earlier. But even police dogs and service dogs, you can't really get them seriously trained to advanced levels until they are mature enough to concentrate and have gained the necessary impulse control, so they are generally introduced to more serious training once they are over one year with most them being ready anywhere between 18 months and 3 years. 

on a related subject, we were considering neuteuring him. Not because of this specific incident, but with him showing signs of dominance, and always trying to mount when playing, our instructor mentioned it can be hormones driven sometimes. Like, hormones are working, it gets him all excited, and gets him over threshold, and having those kind of rough play... So for now, we're still waiting how it goes, given he's full teenager mode. If it pass we will let him like this, if not we might actually doing it.

What do you think about it ?

There is no easy answer to this. Mounting during play can be due to high arousal levels, over stimulation, stress, anxiety, herding instincts (wanting to control the movement of other dogs), medical issues or just being a 'bully." So there are no guarantees that the mounting will stop once neutered. Neutering is no longer considered a "cure all' like it was in the past. 

I think this is something you should discuss with your vet, or even better, several vets (and do your own research as well) so you can gather several opinions/views along with factual information before making a decision, because if you are doing the surgical "snip-snip" procedure, there is then no going back. It's irreversible. 

I will provide you some basics from research I have gathered.  

Behavior-wise, several studies that were published between the 1970s and 1990s suggested that neutering helped in reducing urine marking, roaming, and mounting most likely due to the reduction in testosterone levels. Statically, we are talking improvements of around 50 percent. 

A more recent study conducted in 2021 confirmed the above findings when it came to mounting behavior, showing a significant reduction in nine months after neutering. However, note that these studies do not provide much details on what types of mounting they addressed. If Loki is mounting from non-hormonal reasons such as overstimulation, or herding instincts, neutering may not help as desired, whereas management will. 

To further complicate things, there are also some studies providing some contradictory findings on neutering leading to certain unexpected behavioral changes such as increased aggression, fearfulness, excitability, anxiety, and decreased trainability. Anectodical evidence also shows us that intact male dogs upon entering a dog park (or other settings with groups of dogs) tend to be attacked by neutered male dogs. 

Health-wise, studies have revealed that when dogs are not neutered, they become more predisposed to benign prostatic hyperplasia (an enlarged prostate), perineal hernias and adenomas, prostatitis, and testicular neoplasia. Whereas, neutering has been linked to an increased risk of prostate cancer and diabetes mellitus along with a possible increase in joint disorders. 

In general, if we know with certainty that the behavior is hormonally-driven there are chances that neutering will reduce that. However, there are no certainties, considering how the mounting behavior may be carried out for various reasons, and to add insult to injury, there are countless of spayed female dogs and neutered male dogs who still mount!

So this is a delicate situation. If you are on the fence with neutering another option is looking into hormonal neutering with an implant, which is reversible and this can *maybe* allow you to see whether neutering would make a change in the behavior.

Of course, discuss this with a veterinarian or even better, veterinary behaviorist if feasible, so to see what are the options and do research. If you would like to dig deeper, I can link you some of the studies on neutering I have found.